Nest introduces third-gen Thermostat with better display, Farsight wakeup

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Comments

  • Reply 41 of 54
    hagarhagar Posts: 129member
    Why does nobody talk about the elephant in the room? Homekit compatibility?
  • Reply 42 of 54
    thrangthrang Posts: 1,002member
    sog35 wrote: »
    Google collects data from users and then places ads based on your data.  Those type of targeted ads command higher ad rates.  So yes Google is monitizing your data.

    Nest current privacy policy states they don't collect data........for now.  Google has the right to change its privacy policy with Nest at any time for any reason.



    FACT:  Google makes 90-99% of their profits from ads based on data mining.
    FACT:  Google/Alphabet owns Nest
    FACT:  Nest has the ability to data mine

    Can you not see the obvious?

    Agreed, and was about to post the same pov.

    It's not difficult to see how sensing motion in your home would be tied to your user ID or location and suddenly ads for food delivery or home services start appearing on your browsers...
  • Reply 43 of 54
    sog35 wrote: »
    Its common sense.  

    But we will know for sure when Alphabet reports Google seperate from the other companies.
    In other words you don't have a clue and your making it up and hoping future news can be used to validate your position.
  • Reply 44 of 54
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sog35 View Post

     

     

    Google collects data from users and then places ads based on your data.  Those type of targeted ads command higher ad rates.  So yes Google is monitizing your data.


     

    What’s really frustrating about this argument, is that what Google does couldn’t be any more open. It’s not a mystery at all. Absolutely anyone, as long as they have internet access, can go and see what can be bid on as an advertiser. It’s not only not secret, it inherently only works because it’s an open process. And yet, people make all kinds of wild claims about what Google is doing.

     

    Go on, point to where Google is accepting any bids for ads against any data obtained, or obtainable, from the Nest.  The "FACT" is they aren't and this is easily verifiable by anyone with Internet access.

     

    Quote:


    Nest current privacy policy states they don't collect data........for now.  Google has the right to change its privacy policy with Nest at any time for any reason.


     

    They can't fundamentally change the privacy and the separation of data from Google without issuing refunds for people who purchased under the current privacy policy, without facing major lawsuits.

     

    I think it's important to actually read this:

    https://nest.com/legal/privacy-statement-for-nest-products-and-services/

    https://nest.com/privacy-faq/

     

    The privacy of the data is core to Nest products, they're advertising this, and purchases are being made based on this.

    Quote:


    FACT:  Google makes 90-99% of their profits from ads based on data mining.


     

    FACT: Nest is run as an independent company and makes 0% of their profit from ads or data mining.

    FACT: In areas where the profit model is where Google charges for products and services, they don't advertise or data mine.

    Quote:


    FACT:  Nest has the ability to data mine


     

    FACT: So does Apple.  Apple has iAds. That means, everything you type on a Mac or iPhone can be collected and any advertiser can sell you ads based on anything you’ve ever written or clicked on. Obviously, I’m not serious, but if I were, and if they were, instead of just saying this, I would point and say, “look, here is the URL where you can bid on ads based on exactly what I said”.

     

    But of course, Apple doesn't do this, and we can verify that they don't do this based on not being able to bid against the data.  Further, although Apple "could change their privacy policy and do this at any time", we can see that it's not in their interest to do so.  Likewise, we can verify that Nest isn't doing this, if they did, they'd face massive lawsuits for breach of contract and false advertising, and it's not in their interest to do so.  The profit margin on a Nest is far greater than the advertising based on the data.  The fact is, there isn't that much data that could be realistically monetized against in any advertising scheme.

     

    Think about it, you have a rough idea of location (that may or may not be accurate), amount of use of heat/air (which may be inaccurate in terms of personal preference), and a rough of idea of home/away activity (which is extremely inaccurate).  Further, you have nothing to tie this into in terms of delivering an ad.  Meaning, you can't show the person an ad on television, because the systems aren't connected.  You can't show them an ad banner, because the systems aren't connected.  Keep in mind, you don't need a gmail account, or even a Google account to fully utilize Nest.

     

    And again, point to where even this category of information is available to bid on. 

     

    Quote:


    Can you not see the obvious?


     

    If it's so obvious, why can't you provide a URL where one can bid on either the data or advertising against the data?  Heck, I'll even settle for where one can bid on Google advertising against the category of data even if it isn't from Nest.

  • Reply 45 of 54
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by thrang View Post





    Agreed, and was about to post the same pov.



    It's not difficult to see how sensing motion in your home would be tied to your user ID or location and suddenly ads for food delivery or home services start appearing on your browsers...

     

    That would be some trick considering that you don't need a Gmail account or Google account/ID to register or fully use Nest.  Also considering how inaccurate that data would be (both in location and home/away), someone would be a fool to bid based on that data.

     

    Wouldn't it make more sense to geolocate the IP address on the browser, and deliver location based ads (for food delivery or home services) based on the geolocation and whether the IP came from a home connection... you know, like what they've been doing successfully for years now?

     

    Oh, and by the way, Apple's iAds allow for geolocation, so there's that.

  • Reply 46 of 54
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sog35 View Post

     

     

    Read the last sentence in the privacy policy:

     

    Please note that this Privacy Statement may change from time to time. 

     

    LOLOLLLOOLOOLLOLOOLOLO


     

    Read what I wrote, "They can't fundamentally change the privacy and the separation of data from Google without issuing refunds for people who purchased under the current privacy policy, without facing major lawsuits."

     

    Do you not understand what the word "fundamentally" means?

     

    Of course they can change the policy.  They have to be able to in order to allow for new products and services or even to clarify language and fix typos.  However, fundamentally changing from a focus of protecting privacy to selling the data is clearly a breach of contract and false advertising.  The FTC has been clear about this in the past.

     

    Quote:


    No one is saying Nest is selling info NOW.  But looking at Google's history isn't it obvious?


     

    No.  When has Google ever taken a product with a profit model based on the sales margin and then flipped it around by monetizing it through ad sales, let alone, done so retroactively with a product already in the consumer's possession?

     

    Again, based on your criteria, we should equally fear Apple.

  • Reply 47 of 54
    thrangthrang Posts: 1,002member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MrEdofCourse View Post

     

     

    That would be some trick considering that you don't need a Gmail account or Google account/ID to register or fully use Nest.  Also considering how inaccurate that data would be (both in location and home/away), someone would be a fool to bid based on that data.

     

    Wouldn't it make more sense to geolocate the IP address on the browser, and deliver location based ads (for food delivery or home services) based on the geolocation and whether the IP came from a home connection... you know, like what they've been doing successfully for years now?

     

    Oh, and by the way, Apple's iAds allow for geolocation, so there's that.




    You need to register Nest's to configure their use as a wifi thermostat. So your information is with Google

     

    They could easily associate any Nest in your home with your computers or smartphones on wifi in your home since you will all share the public IP of your router. Or match user names to existing data, which quite likely has scrapped together all the different email address you might use.

     

    Apple's data anonymously aggregated. They are not incentivized to sell specific since they actually make oodles of money from actual products and beneficial services.

     

    Is Google revenue primarily derived from selling ads?

  • Reply 48 of 54
    crowleycrowley Posts: 10,453member
    thrang wrote: »
    It's not difficult to see how sensing motion in your home would be tied to your user ID or location and suddenly ads for food delivery or home services start appearing on your browsers...
    Even if that were to happen, and I think it's far from certainty or even likelihood that it will, where's the great evil or hurt? There will be an ad in that space whether you use a nEst or not, so why is it somehow worse for that ad to be a bit more relevant to you? Even if you don't like ads (who does?) why is a targeted ad worse than an untargetted one?
  • Reply 49 of 54
    thrangthrang Posts: 1,002member
    crowley wrote: »
    Even if that were to happen, and I think it's far from certainty or even likelihood that it will, where's the great evil or hurt? There will be an ad in that space whether you use a nEst or not, so why is it somehow worse for that ad to be a bit more relevant to you? Even if you don't like ads (who does?) why is a targeted ad worse than an untargetted one?

    Actually I don't see ads on my computer as I use an ad blocker extension in Safari. And I'll do the same on iOS when 9 launches.

    The ad model is very broken, and especially insidious on an iPad, where navigating most web pages is a mine field.

    There really needs to be a universally accepted opt in model, for any advertising, which the user controls based on their current interests. So if I'm planning on buying a home, I might opt in for real estate agents, home builders, mortgage companies, etc. after I've purchased, I'll turn those off, and possible enable home furnishings, landscapers, deck builders, etc. Or I may turn it off compete because I'm not in the market for anything.

    The signal to noise ratio is horrible right now, and it would serve advertisers better to see 10% of the current hits they're ow seeing, but that 10% is 100% interested in their product or service category.

    I'm sick and tired of every little superficial search, not connected to any buying intent, turning into display ads.

    And if you don't see the idea that Google know when you're home or not as creepy, we have different perspectives. Could that ever be hacked or abused??
  • Reply 50 of 54
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by thrang View Post

     



    You need to register Nest's to configure their use as a wifi thermostat. So your information is with Google


     

    You're confusing registering your Nest with registering for a Google or Gmail account.  It's nothing more than usernames and password which all can be unique to Nest.  And don't forget that while Google owns Nest, it's run as a separate company.  They advertise that they do not share the data.  So if they did, that would open them up to a lawsuit.

     

    Quote:


    They could easily associate any Nest in your home with your computers or smartphones on wifi in your home since you will all share the public IP of your router.

     



     

    That wouldn't work under IPv6, nor would it work with dynamic IPs or if you weren't using a IPv4 NAT address.  I addressed this point earlier.  If you're concerned about IP mapping, then it wouldn't make sense for Google to risk the lawsuit and utilize the Nest data, nor would it make sense to try to match an IP address that may be entirely inaccurate when they could simply do what they've been doing for years now, and what Apple has been doing for a while now too, that is, they can simply use the IP address of the browser itself.

     

    Quote:


    Or match user names to existing data, which quite likely has scrapped together all the different email address you might use.


     

    You're missing the point that the username and email is allowed to be unique to Nest.

     

    Quote:


    Apple's data anonymously aggregated. They are not incentivized to sell specific since they actually make oodles of money from actual products and beneficial services.


     

    Apple has iAds.  They target individuals based on much of the exact same criteria with a model that is very similar to Google's.  Apple utilizes IP geolocation mapping for custom delivery of iAds.  Apple delivers iAds based on content specific criteria.

     

    Quote:


    Is Google revenue primarily derived from selling ads?


     

    Not with the Nest, 0% of it is from selling ads, 100% of it is from selling hardware.

     

    Look, you have two companies one company, Google, makes the bulk of its revenue selling ads, but owns a hardware company, Nest, which has no advertising model, nor data mining revenue and has advertised privacy along with published privacy policies that would subject it to major lawsuits if it ever abused your data.

     

    The other company, Apple, makes the bulk of its revenue selling hardware, software and services, but one department within the company itself generates ad revenue and is a new and growing business venture for the company.  Like Nest, Apple has similar privacy policies that it has advertised and would face major lawsuits if it ever abused your data.

     

    To me, they both seem trustworthy here.  Further, the only way you can really point the "distrust finger" at one, is to point it at the other for the exact same reasons.  Moreover, the data from Nest is not only virtually worthless, but there isn't even a category for bidding on it.  We routinely open ourselves up to much larger privacy give-aways every time we open a browser.

     

    Ya, you're going to click on websites that may send all kinds of data associated with your IP to Google (and others), allowing them to build databases based on what you like to read or view, and at the same time deliver custom based ads... but that box on the wall that sends inaccurate and worthless data to a company owned by Google that would face major lawsuits if it abused that data... that you have a problem with?

  • Reply 51 of 54
    thrangthrang Posts: 1,002member
    thrang wrote: »
    Actually I don't see ads on my computer as I use an ad blocker extension in Safari. And I'll do the same on iOS when 9 launches.

    The ad model is very broken, and especially insidious on an iPad, where navigating most web pages is a mine field.

    There really needs to be a universally accepted opt in model, for any advertising, which the user controls based on their current interests. So if I'm planning on buying a home, I might opt in for real estate agents, home builders, mortgage companies, etc. after I've purchased, I'll turn those off, and possible enable home furnishings, landscapers, deck builders, etc. Or I may turn it off compete because I'm not in the market for anything.

    I'm sick and tired of every little superficial search, not connected to any buying intent, turning into display ads.
    You're confusing registering your Nest with registering for a Google or Gmail account.  It's nothing more than usernames and password which all can be unique to Nest.  And don't forget that while Google owns Nest, it's run as a separate company.  They advertise that they do not share the data.  So if they did, that would open them up to a lawsuit.


    That wouldn't work under IPv6, nor would it work with dynamic IPs or if you weren't using a IPv4 NAT address.  I addressed this point earlier.  If you're concerned about IP mapping, then it wouldn't make sense for Google to risk the lawsuit and utilize the Nest data, nor would it make sense to try to match an IP address that may be entirely inaccurate when they could simply do what they've been doing for years now, and what Apple has been doing for a while now too, that is, they can simply use the IP address of the browser itself.


    You're missing the point that the username and email is allowed to be unique to Nest.


    Apple has iAds.  They target individuals based on much of the exact same criteria with a model that is very similar to Google's.  Apple utilizes IP geolocation mapping for custom delivery of iAds.  Apple delivers iAds based on content specific criteria.


    Not with the Nest, 0% of it is from selling ads, 100% of it is from selling hardware.

    Look, you have two companies one company, Google, makes the bulk of its revenue selling ads, but owns a hardware company, Nest, which has no advertising model, nor data mining revenue and has advertised privacy along with published privacy policies that would subject it to major lawsuits if it ever abused your data.

    The other company, Apple, makes the bulk of its revenue selling hardware, software and services, but one department within the company itself generates ad revenue and is a new and growing business venture for the company.  Like Nest, Apple has similar privacy policies that it has advertised and would face major lawsuits if it ever abused your data.

    To me, they both seem trustworthy here.  Further, the only way you can really point the "distrust finger" at one, is to point it at the other for the exact same reasons.  Moreover, the data from Nest is not only virtually worthless, but there isn't even a category for bidding on it.  We routinely open ourselves up to much larger privacy give-aways every time we open a browser.

    Ya, you're going to click on websites that may send all kinds of data associated with your IP to Google (and others), allowing them to build databases based on what you like to read or view, and at the same time deliver custom based ads... but that box on the wall that sends inaccurate and worthless data to a company owned by Google that would face major lawsuits if it abused that data... that you have a problem with?

    I am fairly certain a vast majority of people registering with nest are using their primary email, or one of the two or three secondary emails we all have. Google already asks for secondary emails to help reset your password, and I'm fairly certain their data mining has a fairly accurate view of most of the emails we generally use. This is a big part of their business - knowing you.

    Not sure what your saying about a public IP address not being a good link between this information. Yes, it may not tell you specifically if you or your spouse or you kid walked in the house, but I'm not sure that's an insurmountable task. And if you're running any app that polls a server periodically, like a mail app, I'm fairly certain it can tell what the public IP it's being polled from, and the user account that's being accessed. So it would seem trivial to tie a lot of this together if it hasn't already.

    Of course they couldn't just do this without telling anyone. But as their privacy policy states at its conclusion, it can change whenever they wish, and your agreement to the current policy doesn't prevent them from changing it. They have to notify you, but really, this is again fairly trivial.

    And let's not talk about checking what you can bid against as an advertiser...virtually no one in the general public is nosing into those sections of Google, so it's relatively meaningless to everyone other than those in the backrooms.

    I mean, Google didn't buy this because they care about your humidity and temperature levels....clearly, it was a purchase that puts however many million of devices, with motion sensors, that communicate to the their servers, in their pocket.

    I'm really not paranoid about any of this, but to say this is not distinctly possible doesn't make sense to me.
  • Reply 52 of 54
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,088member
    thrang wrote: »

    I mean, Google didn't buy this because they care about your humidity and temperature levels....clearly, it was a purchase that puts however many million of devices, with motion sensors, that communicate to the their servers, in their pocket.

    I'm really not paranoid about any of this, but to say this is not distinctly possible doesn't make sense to me.
    It should be plain why Google bought them. They're moving into the home automation segment just as Amazon, Apple and Microsoft are along with dozens of smaller companies. It's not about ads, it's about moving more into the hardware business while at the same time encouraging more folks to buy into the Google ecosystem. Haven't you noticed that all the big techs are diversifying more, hedging their bets against any downturn in their primary businesses?
  • Reply 53 of 54
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by thrang View Post

    I am fairly certain a vast majority of people registering with nest are using their primary email, or one of the two or three secondary emails we all have. Google already asks for secondary emails to help reset your password, and I'm fairly certain their data mining has a fairly accurate view of most of the emails we generally use. This is a big part of their business - knowing you.

     

    Again, you're missing the point here.  You don't need an active email account that's used for anything else.  What anybody else uses as their email address doesn't affect me.  The email address I use for Google services is only used for Google services and the email address that I use for Nest is only used for Nest.  And my actual email address for work and the one for personal use is entirely different as well.  I do this with most services as email addresses are free and easy to sign up for.

     

    Quote:


    Actually I don't see ads on my computer as I use an ad blocker extension in Safari. And I'll do the same on iOS when 9 launches.


     

    Then why do you care at all?  On the one hand, you're afraid of targeted ads, and on the other hand, you say you don't see any ads.

     

    Quote:


    Not sure what your saying about a public IP address not being a good link between this information. Yes, it may not tell you specifically if you or your spouse or you kid walked in the house, but I'm not sure that's an insurmountable task. And if you're running any app that polls a server periodically, like a mail app, I'm fairly certain it can tell what the public IP it's being polled from, and the user account that's being accessed. So it would seem trivial to tie a lot of this together if it hasn't already.


     

    I already described why this is a bad link:

    1) The IP address may be dynamic

    2) The IP address may not be using NAT

    3) The IP address may be IPv6 and not IPv4

    4) The IP address of the device itself can't receive an ad, and has very little data that could possibly be targeted.

     

    More so, this would just be incredibly foolish since the very devices you'd be delivering an ad to are better suited for using the IP address of that device... In other words, why pull data from a device that may have incorrect geo data, most likely has incorrect "person home/away" data, and definitely has no other usable data when the very device you want to deliver an ad to has so much more data that is far likely to be more accurate?

     

    Quote:


    Of course they couldn't just do this without telling anyone. But as their privacy policy states at its conclusion, it can change whenever they wish, and your agreement to the current policy doesn't prevent them from changing it. They have to notify you, but really, this is again fairly trivial.


     

    Sigh... privacy policies don't work like that.  They can't fundamentally alter the terms of the policy retroactively affecting the privacy of the customers who purchased the products without issuing refunds or they'd face major lawsuits (not to mention a huge consumer backlash).  They can alter the policy to fix typos, add text to support new products and services, and allow things like opt-ins, but the whole point of having a published policy is that the fundamental points of that policy must be adhered to.  Check on FTC rulings in the matter.  Even the tiniest of changes that you wouldn't think were fundamental changes are held to scrutiny by the FTC when they retroactively affect the customers.

     

    If Nest wanted to change their policy, such that they are giving data to Google (or others), they'd have to not only properly notify and publish these changes, but they could only apply this change to future customers and product sales.  Anyone who purchased the products based on the privacy policies at the time are guaranteed by law, to have those privacy policies at the time they made the purchase.

     

    Again, that's the whole point of having a privacy policy.  Otherwise a company could just do whatever, whenever, and just change the policy daily if they wanted.

     

    Quote:


    And let's not talk about checking what you can bid against as an advertiser...virtually no one in the general public is nosing into those sections of Google, so it's relatively meaningless to everyone other than those in the backrooms.


     

    You couldn't be anymore wrong about this.  The entire ad business model Google created is inherently public because it involves open bidding for the criteria that the ads are based on.  You could be an individual with $10 bucks to spend, or the CEO of any Fortune 500 company, you'd have access to the exact same tools, and the same data sets to bid on for advertising.

     

    Wow, you've been going on an on about this, and have absolutely no idea how Google's advertising even works?  It's not that hard to find out either.  You can literally Google this information.

     

    Quote:


    I mean, Google didn't buy this because they care about your humidity and temperature levels....clearly, it was a purchase that puts however many million of devices, with motion sensors, that communicate to the their servers, in their pocket.


     

    Gatorguy gave you a perfect answer to their motives, but also, I find it funny that this is what you think, but yet, you can't point to any sign that although Google has owned Nest for a while now, they're intending to do any of this.  In fact, since Google has purchased Nest, and runs it as an independent company, Nest has taken more effort to advertise and extend their privacy policies.

     

    Quote:


    I'm really not paranoid about any of this, but to say this is not distinctly possible doesn't make sense to me.


     

    Sure, but you can just as easily apply that to Apple and every other similar company.

     

    Nest makes really great products and there are no similar products where the exact same privacy issues wouldn't exist.  And, those issues with Nest are pretty baseless and insignificant, especially in the context of alternative means of targeting ads.

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