Kind of like being sick of hearing people justify why it's okay over and over. Just like people will argue to their dying breath 1GB of Ram is okay until Apple decides to give 2GB of Ram then and only then will they agree 1GB isn't enough. For some nothing is every a good idea unless Apple deems it's a good idea. Better camera quality, higher quality videos, larger games, larger apps have all made 16GB simple not enough for anyone that really wants to use their phone. For a 10 year old kid yeah maybe.
"that really wants to use their phone"
?Yeah because that's dictated by some all knowing ruler of the world? Apparently, given sales, there's plenty of actual, you know, buyers, who decide 16GB is just what they need. Many probably over ten years old as well (though I missed my opportunity to fact check that when I passed a toddler in his stroller happily using his Otterboxed 6 yesterday, holding it Landscape so I'd expect either gaming or video viewing). Just because my use case is different doesn't blind me to others having, gasp, different requirements.
I get it, anyone who disagrees with you is a fanboy. When you can't adequately defend your position, throw a label at your opponent so at least your mirror reflects something stronger.
No. What people fail to get is Apple added 16GB of storage on Feb 5th 2008. Considering all the advancements the rest of the phone has made having 16GB as the entry level storage is disproportionate to the rest of the phone. We all get it's about profit, what some of us don't get is why consumers would defend it.
Lets also realize when someone buys a 16GB phone they aren't getting a full 16GB of useable storage. So that makes 16GB even more ridiculous. What's even more unreal is the iPad having 16GB of storage. By the way no where in this thread have I used the word fanboy.
?Yeah because that's dictated by some all knowing ruler of the world? Apparently, given sales, there's plenty of actual, you know, buyers, who decide 16GB is just what they need. Many probably over ten years old as well. Just because my use case is different doesn't blind me to others having, gasp, different requirements.
Who says it's want they need and not what they can afford or they simply don't know better? Also trying to justify this based on user needs and not Apple profit simply isn't the case and will never be the case. Kind of like Apple having a laptop with 4GB of Ram and a 5400RPM HDD and calling is a "Pro" model. We all know Apple makes their money off of hardware but lets not pretend 16GB is based on user needs and not profit.
Who says it's want they need and not what they can afford or they simply don't know better? Also trying to justify this based on user needs and not Apple profit simply isn't the case and will never be the case. Kind of like Apple having a laptop with 4GB of Ram and a 5400RPM HDD and calling is a "Pro" model. We all know Apple makes their money off of hardware but lets not pretend 16GB is based on user needs and not profit.
"simply isn't the case and will never be the case"
?Ah more unsupported personal opinion.
Given the service costs associated with cell phone total costs I do think people decide on their phone choice based on what they decide will work for them: over the life of the device what's the cost differential? 2% 3% Even a ten year old would understand that math, a toddler, perhaps not (I really should have asked him but he looked very engrossed in his phone usage).
Market forces trump unsupported opinion. The phone sells. Sure, not the one for me, but oddly, I'm okay with that.
Oh and "they simply don't know better?" just because they have made a purchasing choice you wouldn't? I disagree with that approach.
Hover effects and/or features you can only discover by hovering the mouse cursor over various things has to be the single worst UI paradigm ever created. I hope it never comes to iOS where intuitiveness and discoverability are paramount.
Right, because getting an idea of what some mysterious icon actually does before you click it is a horrible idea. Let's just click it and see what happens without an undo.
With its small screen size, iOS navigation is often a severely compromised UI experience with lots of hidden and unusual interaction methods - far from intuitive. Force Touch should help to improve that to some degree, but there is a reason that EVERY desktop app and nearly every web page uses hover - because it is very useful, informative and intuitive.
But don't worry, iOS is probably not going to get a hover feature because it is completely incompatible with Touch UI core functionality. You should be fine.
Right, because getting an idea of what some mysterious icon actually does before you click it is a horrible idea. Let's just click it and see what happens without an undo.
How about using an icon which people are familiar with or clearly conveys the concept? As a bonus, you don't have to translate all of those hover tips into dozens of languages later (or end up excluding international users because you didn't). As an added bonus, now your website/app can be made to work on touchscreen devices more easily.
And if you have a destructive document editing or file manipulation application which doesn't support undo in this day and age, I'd recommend exploring more modern options.
My big issue with hover-effects isn't really tooltips (those are actually useful). It's when people use a hover effect to hide the fact that something is a button (i.e. it doesn't look like a button until you hover over it). So then you're left hovering over the entire screen to figure out what's a button and what isn't. iOS uses consistent colour and placement across all apps to convey the same information without the need for hovering.
Already dead to me: I've never bought the low storage end iPhones due to my music library and experience with iPods.
Yay me.
Now can we get back to complaining about no removable storage and no removable battery. And how about it's entire lack of usability as a dive computer?
You forgot the kickstand! How can we take it seriously without the kickstand?
Kind of like being sick of hearing people justify why it's okay over and over. Just like people will argue to their dying breath 1GB of Ram is okay until Apple decides to give 2GB of Ram then and only then will they agree 1GB isn't enough. For some nothing is every a good idea unless Apple deems it's a good idea. Better camera quality, higher quality videos, larger games, larger apps have all made 16GB simple not enough for anyone that really wants to use their phone. For a 10 year old kid yeah maybe.
I would be happy if Apple never increased RAM. 1GB is already too much. The problem is developers as a group are very bad at using available resources efficiently. If you give them more, they use it, not to make the user experience better, but because cleaning up after themselves is hard. Adding more RAM also gets into a Spec race, which some other company will claim to win by adding an unneeded extra 100MB. Better they not bother about RAM until they have an actual need to increase it.
This gets away from the issue at hand, though, the 16GB base model. Like most here, I don't buy the base model, because I end up using more space than that. That doesn't invailidate the existence of the 16GB model. I'm sure if Apple did upgrade the base model to 32GB, within a month we'd have someone complaining that they should just make 64GB the base model. And so it will continue. There are plenty of reasons for Apple to keep the 16GB model, and until there are more, better reasons for increasing it to 32GB, I suspect they'll keep it there. Hell, they might actually change it tomorrow morning, we still don't know for sure. Maybe we should stop complaining about what the phone does or doesn't have until we've seen it.
How about using an icon which people are familiar with or clearly conveys the concept?
Probably because as an application becomes more complex the functions are increasingly more abstract. For example what sort of familiar icon would you use to convey, say, things like "Assets, filters, history, export, edit." there aren't universal icons for many things and there isn't enough room in an iOS interface to write everything as words. There is a reason that iOS honors hovers in most cases - because it is stupid to have to abandon drop down lists that are not form based select inputs. There is also missing very helpful information in title and alt tags on images that are totally unavailable to iOS users.
And as far as nonintuitive interfaces are concerned, let's just shake our devices to undo. Utterly obvious.
For the love of Christ, 16GB is a massive fail. The iPhone is meant to be a premium product. The number of times I've had friends tell me how much they regret not getting more storage after discovering how limiting that is, especially when trying to do OTA updates?
Are Apple retail staff going to explain how limiting that phone is at sale time and try to upsell customers? Up selling is a horrible strategy to rely upon, the base model should be a fully capable unit. A cheaper alternative like the 5c is the best way to push this 16GB rubbish...
Maybe those motion wallpapers are a clue to the 6S incorporating an OLED rather than an LCD display? Well...there is still one more day to go, I can hope no?
I don't agree with name calling. But perhaps then you'll also call out those who claim anyone who doesn't just cough up $100 more for 64GB is "cheap". Perhaps you can explain why people here are perfectly fine with Apple giving us 64 for the price of 32 but 32 for the price of 16 is sacrilege. Of course I know why Apple doesn't do it; 32 is the sweet spot and it would be harder to upsell people to more expensive models and thus harder to increase ASPs and margins. But most people here aren't arguing that point, they're arguing that 16 is good enough and if it's not don't be a cheap bastard and just upgrade.
I know you don't agree with name calling, I've been a fan of your posts starting at MR a long time ago (all those up votes you get, usually one was always from me) - that's not something in which I ever see you engage (hence a big reason why I've been a fan). Like you, I don't agree with name calling either, no matter which side of the argument one happens to sit, whether you agree with my position or not.
You're absolutely right, it's not acceptable to call someone "cheap." And just so you know, that's not what I think of this issue.
It has nothing whatsoever to do with being frugal or not, I don't think of it in those terms at all. To me it's asking and/or expecting, but most of all, criticising Apple for not giving away something for free. They're a typical company forced by the system to focus on maximising shareholder value. I personally don't agree with the system, but I don't think it makes sense to attack a company for playing by the rules. Also, I don't think it's right to expect any company to give away something for free when enough people are happy to pay the prices being charged. Competitor offerings quite often max out only slightly more than 16GB and/or offer the same 16GB base storage, and almost none offer 128GB options. This indicates Apple isn't completely misaligned with the market, but rather offers a wide range of storage (with associated price levels) options.
Product pricing is a complex discipline, I've studied it a bit and know from courses and industry experience that it's not as easy as saying, "swap this part out at $x and absorb it into the cost of the item and we'll suffer no loss in product sales or overall product profitability." We can't simplify product strategy to the level of a simpleton's perspective on "how to price a product" and then criticise Apple for making the most profitable decisions for that product.
Would I prefer that the same price level gets more storage? Of course, but I refuse to believe it's appropriate to attack Apple (in the way some do) for not providing what we consumers would obviously love simply because that's what we want. Apple sets the price and enough people pay the prices at all levels to provide Apple the success our system demands all companies vigorously pursue. In my opinion it would be fiscally irresponsible for Apple to start to give away stuff for free simply because we want them to do that.
These are my thoughts, they apply to Apple and every other manufacturer out there. I would never call you cheap, and I'm sorry if you got lumped in with the crowd who love doing nothing more than criticising Apple because it's one of their perverse pleasures - you know, the ones who dominate over at MR these days.
Hardly stupid. People will be forced to buy the mid-tier model, the average selling price of an iPhone will shoot up by 15%, the stock will skyrocket because of analyst reports of growth in a mature market, and Tim Cook will get his big bonus. See how it works?
no. he'll get a bonus because people like me still love buying them.
It came to me yesterday that, while Force Touch might be confusing if varying inputs do completely different things, it'd work quite well if a light touch was the equivalent of hovering with a mouse and a harder push was like clicking the mouse button.
One of the weaknesses of a touch interface over a mouse has always been that there was no equivalent of hover. This would get Force Touch devices that feature. Nifty!
my dad has a hard enough time with right-clicking, introducing light-touching would be a nitemare.
It's still a ripoff with the sole intention of getting people to pay more. Some here say it's a margin issue yet in the first quarter where Apple offered 64GB for the price of 32GB they reported the highest profits of any company ever and close to record margins.
a ripoff? is getting four times the storage/value for a hundred bucks a ripoff?
The increase in the quality of the camera and the level of videos the phone can take is enough to justify 16GB is simply not enough unless it's for a ten year old and it's his first iPhone.
you made your own case. entry level users like my parents don't need more than the base amount. never go near it.
Probably because as an application becomes more complex the functions are increasingly more abstract. For example what sort of familiar icon would you use to convey, say, things like "Assets, filters, history, export, edit." there aren't universal icons for many things and there isn't enough room in an iOS interface to write everything as words.
Assets isn't an action, it's a view of a particular set of data. So I wouldn't put something like that in a toolbar, but instead in a list of views the user can choose. I'd also put filters and history in that same list. Those all sound like things which require their own view.
Export is very similar to share, so you could probably use an icon like the one used for share sheets in OS X (document with an arrow out) and people would understand it.
As for Edit, I'd need to know the details. In general, the transition between static content and editable content is made via an action/gesture performed on the content itself (e.g. tapping on static text to edit it) and not via a button placed away from the editable content where you don't see the context of what it applies to.
Quote:
There is a reason that iOS honors hovers in most cases - because it is stupid to have to abandon drop down lists that are not form based select inputs. There is also missing very helpful information in title and alt tags on images that are totally unavailable to iOS users.
And so hover is the only possible way to implement these things? How about using tap and hold or a similar gesture? I realize that Mobile Safari currently doesn't do this, but I'm speaking from the perspective of someone who creates the web browser itself and gets to define the user interaction model.
Quote:
And as far as nonintuitive interfaces are concerned, let's just shake our devices to undo. Utterly obvious.
Agreed with the sarcasm. Shake to undo is a gimmick -- you won't see it in a few years time.
Comments
Kind of like being sick of hearing people justify why it's okay over and over. Just like people will argue to their dying breath 1GB of Ram is okay until Apple decides to give 2GB of Ram then and only then will they agree 1GB isn't enough. For some nothing is every a good idea unless Apple deems it's a good idea. Better camera quality, higher quality videos, larger games, larger apps have all made 16GB simple not enough for anyone that really wants to use their phone. For a 10 year old kid yeah maybe.
"that really wants to use their phone"
?Yeah because that's dictated by some all knowing ruler of the world? Apparently, given sales, there's plenty of actual, you know, buyers, who decide 16GB is just what they need. Many probably over ten years old as well (though I missed my opportunity to fact check that when I passed a toddler in his stroller happily using his Otterboxed 6 yesterday, holding it Landscape so I'd expect either gaming or video viewing). Just because my use case is different doesn't blind me to others having, gasp, different requirements.
I get it, anyone who disagrees with you is a fanboy. When you can't adequately defend your position, throw a label at your opponent so at least your mirror reflects something stronger.
No. What people fail to get is Apple added 16GB of storage on Feb 5th 2008. Considering all the advancements the rest of the phone has made having 16GB as the entry level storage is disproportionate to the rest of the phone. We all get it's about profit, what some of us don't get is why consumers would defend it.
Lets also realize when someone buys a 16GB phone they aren't getting a full 16GB of useable storage. So that makes 16GB even more ridiculous. What's even more unreal is the iPad having 16GB of storage. By the way no where in this thread have I used the word fanboy.
"that really wants to use their phone"
?Yeah because that's dictated by some all knowing ruler of the world? Apparently, given sales, there's plenty of actual, you know, buyers, who decide 16GB is just what they need. Many probably over ten years old as well. Just because my use case is different doesn't blind me to others having, gasp, different requirements.
Who says it's want they need and not what they can afford or they simply don't know better? Also trying to justify this based on user needs and not Apple profit simply isn't the case and will never be the case. Kind of like Apple having a laptop with 4GB of Ram and a 5400RPM HDD and calling is a "Pro" model. We all know Apple makes their money off of hardware but lets not pretend 16GB is based on user needs and not profit.
Who says it's want they need and not what they can afford or they simply don't know better? Also trying to justify this based on user needs and not Apple profit simply isn't the case and will never be the case. Kind of like Apple having a laptop with 4GB of Ram and a 5400RPM HDD and calling is a "Pro" model. We all know Apple makes their money off of hardware but lets not pretend 16GB is based on user needs and not profit.
"simply isn't the case and will never be the case"
?Ah more unsupported personal opinion.
Given the service costs associated with cell phone total costs I do think people decide on their phone choice based on what they decide will work for them: over the life of the device what's the cost differential? 2% 3% Even a ten year old would understand that math, a toddler, perhaps not (I really should have asked him but he looked very engrossed in his phone usage).
Market forces trump unsupported opinion. The phone sells. Sure, not the one for me, but oddly, I'm okay with that.
Oh and "they simply don't know better?" just because they have made a purchasing choice you wouldn't? I disagree with that approach.
Hover effects and/or features you can only discover by hovering the mouse cursor over various things has to be the single worst UI paradigm ever created. I hope it never comes to iOS where intuitiveness and discoverability are paramount.
Right, because getting an idea of what some mysterious icon actually does before you click it is a horrible idea. Let's just click it and see what happens without an undo.
With its small screen size, iOS navigation is often a severely compromised UI experience with lots of hidden and unusual interaction methods - far from intuitive. Force Touch should help to improve that to some degree, but there is a reason that EVERY desktop app and nearly every web page uses hover - because it is very useful, informative and intuitive.
But don't worry, iOS is probably not going to get a hover feature because it is completely incompatible with Touch UI core functionality. You should be fine.
Right, because getting an idea of what some mysterious icon actually does before you click it is a horrible idea. Let's just click it and see what happens without an undo.
How about using an icon which people are familiar with or clearly conveys the concept? As a bonus, you don't have to translate all of those hover tips into dozens of languages later (or end up excluding international users because you didn't). As an added bonus, now your website/app can be made to work on touchscreen devices more easily.
And if you have a destructive document editing or file manipulation application which doesn't support undo in this day and age, I'd recommend exploring more modern options.
My big issue with hover-effects isn't really tooltips (those are actually useful). It's when people use a hover effect to hide the fact that something is a button (i.e. it doesn't look like a button until you hover over it). So then you're left hovering over the entire screen to figure out what's a button and what isn't. iOS uses consistent colour and placement across all apps to convey the same information without the need for hovering.
I would be happy if Apple never increased RAM. 1GB is already too much. The problem is developers as a group are very bad at using available resources efficiently. If you give them more, they use it, not to make the user experience better, but because cleaning up after themselves is hard. Adding more RAM also gets into a Spec race, which some other company will claim to win by adding an unneeded extra 100MB. Better they not bother about RAM until they have an actual need to increase it.
This gets away from the issue at hand, though, the 16GB base model. Like most here, I don't buy the base model, because I end up using more space than that. That doesn't invailidate the existence of the 16GB model. I'm sure if Apple did upgrade the base model to 32GB, within a month we'd have someone complaining that they should just make 64GB the base model. And so it will continue. There are plenty of reasons for Apple to keep the 16GB model, and until there are more, better reasons for increasing it to 32GB, I suspect they'll keep it there. Hell, they might actually change it tomorrow morning, we still don't know for sure. Maybe we should stop complaining about what the phone does or doesn't have until we've seen it.
How about using an icon which people are familiar with or clearly conveys the concept?
Probably because as an application becomes more complex the functions are increasingly more abstract. For example what sort of familiar icon would you use to convey, say, things like "Assets, filters, history, export, edit." there aren't universal icons for many things and there isn't enough room in an iOS interface to write everything as words. There is a reason that iOS honors hovers in most cases - because it is stupid to have to abandon drop down lists that are not form based select inputs. There is also missing very helpful information in title and alt tags on images that are totally unavailable to iOS users.
And as far as nonintuitive interfaces are concerned, let's just shake our devices to undo. Utterly obvious.
Are Apple retail staff going to explain how limiting that phone is at sale time and try to upsell customers? Up selling is a horrible strategy to rely upon, the base model should be a fully capable unit. A cheaper alternative like the 5c is the best way to push this 16GB rubbish...
I don't agree with name calling. But perhaps then you'll also call out those who claim anyone who doesn't just cough up $100 more for 64GB is "cheap". Perhaps you can explain why people here are perfectly fine with Apple giving us 64 for the price of 32 but 32 for the price of 16 is sacrilege. Of course I know why Apple doesn't do it; 32 is the sweet spot and it would be harder to upsell people to more expensive models and thus harder to increase ASPs and margins. But most people here aren't arguing that point, they're arguing that 16 is good enough and if it's not don't be a cheap bastard and just upgrade.
I know you don't agree with name calling, I've been a fan of your posts starting at MR a long time ago (all those up votes you get, usually one was always from me) - that's not something in which I ever see you engage (hence a big reason why I've been a fan). Like you, I don't agree with name calling either, no matter which side of the argument one happens to sit, whether you agree with my position or not.
You're absolutely right, it's not acceptable to call someone "cheap." And just so you know, that's not what I think of this issue.
It has nothing whatsoever to do with being frugal or not, I don't think of it in those terms at all. To me it's asking and/or expecting, but most of all, criticising Apple for not giving away something for free. They're a typical company forced by the system to focus on maximising shareholder value. I personally don't agree with the system, but I don't think it makes sense to attack a company for playing by the rules. Also, I don't think it's right to expect any company to give away something for free when enough people are happy to pay the prices being charged. Competitor offerings quite often max out only slightly more than 16GB and/or offer the same 16GB base storage, and almost none offer 128GB options. This indicates Apple isn't completely misaligned with the market, but rather offers a wide range of storage (with associated price levels) options.
Product pricing is a complex discipline, I've studied it a bit and know from courses and industry experience that it's not as easy as saying, "swap this part out at $x and absorb it into the cost of the item and we'll suffer no loss in product sales or overall product profitability." We can't simplify product strategy to the level of a simpleton's perspective on "how to price a product" and then criticise Apple for making the most profitable decisions for that product.
Would I prefer that the same price level gets more storage? Of course, but I refuse to believe it's appropriate to attack Apple (in the way some do) for not providing what we consumers would obviously love simply because that's what we want. Apple sets the price and enough people pay the prices at all levels to provide Apple the success our system demands all companies vigorously pursue. In my opinion it would be fiscally irresponsible for Apple to start to give away stuff for free simply because we want them to do that.
These are my thoughts, they apply to Apple and every other manufacturer out there. I would never call you cheap, and I'm sorry if you got lumped in with the crowd who love doing nothing more than criticising Apple because it's one of their perverse pleasures - you know, the ones who dominate over at MR these days.
you're confusing stupidity with something you don't like.
Well, that’s your opinion, which is skewed as you’re not in the light use market.
no. he'll get a bonus because people like me still love buying them.
my dad has a hard enough time with right-clicking, introducing light-touching would be a nitemare.
I've never missed hovering in iOS apps.
a ripoff? is getting four times the storage/value for a hundred bucks a ripoff?
you made your own case. entry level users like my parents don't need more than the base amount. never go near it.
Probably because as an application becomes more complex the functions are increasingly more abstract. For example what sort of familiar icon would you use to convey, say, things like "Assets, filters, history, export, edit." there aren't universal icons for many things and there isn't enough room in an iOS interface to write everything as words.
Assets isn't an action, it's a view of a particular set of data. So I wouldn't put something like that in a toolbar, but instead in a list of views the user can choose. I'd also put filters and history in that same list. Those all sound like things which require their own view.
Export is very similar to share, so you could probably use an icon like the one used for share sheets in OS X (document with an arrow out) and people would understand it.
As for Edit, I'd need to know the details. In general, the transition between static content and editable content is made via an action/gesture performed on the content itself (e.g. tapping on static text to edit it) and not via a button placed away from the editable content where you don't see the context of what it applies to.
And so hover is the only possible way to implement these things? How about using tap and hold or a similar gesture? I realize that Mobile Safari currently doesn't do this, but I'm speaking from the perspective of someone who creates the web browser itself and gets to define the user interaction model.
Agreed with the sarcasm. Shake to undo is a gimmick -- you won't see it in a few years time.