Microsoft rep pans iPad Pro, says Apple's tablet is 'always going to be a companion device'

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Comments

  • Reply 21 of 86
    nikon133nikon133 Posts: 2,600member
    stevie said:
    metrix said:
     1000 times more people that want to do some cheap photo effects or basic design. Microsoft is right you can't run Photoshop on the iPad Pro but for the casual user you probably going to save a lot more money buying apps from the Apps Store than full fledged software packages. 

    Exactly right!

    The iPad Pro is "good enough" for most people.  For anybody else with their professional edge use cases, there is the Mac.
    iPad Air is already good for most people tablet needs. Pro does need to carve deeper into more serious part of computing, and offer apps that are comparable (or the same) with those people use for work. Without such software, Pro is just larger and faster iPad Air right now... but not many existing apps will really take advantage of that speed increase.

    The other thing is... Apple probably doesn't really want iPad Pro to discourage people from buying Mac (in any form). As such, they want iPPro to be companion device. More capable one, but still companion device. I think that makes sense.

    What is interesting for me is Microsoft's position. On one side, they don't have anything but Surface, so they can merge, replace, convert or do anything else they want to when it comes to tablet/laptop/computer formula. However, I'd expect they don't want to alienate OEMs too much, so they have to be somewhat diplomatic. Maybe that's why Surface is going only for higher-end, expensive convertible devices that are not atractive to "purists" who want only laptop or only tablet, without any convertibility sacrifices. Surface Pro is really not too bad, but Surface Book is quite outrageous, price wise.
    Deeedsflashfan207
  • Reply 22 of 86
    tmaytmay Posts: 5,762member
    anome said:
    It disappoints me that MS are still following the same philosophy - "Windows on Everything!"

    Apple's philosophy has always been "Keep the hard stuff out of sight of the user." So tailor your software to the platform it's running on, and do all the work of compatability at the back end.

    So when MS design a tablet, you need a stylus for the UI elements that don't scale properly, and a keyboard for text input, but you can run exactly the same software on it as on your desktop PC.

    When Apple design a tablet, they redesign the UI elements to work properly on the platform, design the hardware to provide optimal performance for a tablet, and create a model for iOS and MacOS apps to complement eachother.

    Which of these models is more succesful? Well which one is selling more tablets, even to users of the other's desktop OS?
    I've stated early on that MS "abandoning" ARM will hurt their mobile efforts, and I don't see anything to change my mind. For an x86 machine, it's difficult for a developer to want to create a Universal App when he has an x86 version available that can be tweaked to touch. Lack of Universal Apps means that Windows Phone will continue to suffer, and MS's mobile effort will continue to be on life support. I'm of the opinion that every Surface sale merely cannibalizes a laptop sale, and this is implied by Laycock.

    Nothing against a Swiss Army knife philosophy, but most people would consider the individual tools ill suited for a production environment. I'll stick with the best tool for the job, thanks.
    edited January 2016
  • Reply 23 of 86
    irelandireland Posts: 17,785member
    'Always'

    Duly noted. Microsoft's surface is a backward looking insecure product built on fear. It's tough to break from the past sometimes. If Apple can court some developers like Adobe into producing full PS for iPad Pro going first (not an easy task, admittedly) Apple will be in a far better position to move the needle. MS isn't brave enough to attempt this way. Flash is dead because Apple refused to compromise. You need to make sacrifices and be brave to change the world.
    edited January 2016 hydrogenRayz2016
  • Reply 24 of 86
    entropysentropys Posts: 3,610member
    Our IT department has managed to convince execs to go surface pro instead of desktops even. I believe the ultimate plan is hot desking.
    For years they have profiled a lot of the utility out of iOS devices, and you even think about an iPad and you have to show cause to the IT committee.  About 18 months ago the head of IT in a meeting practically salivated as he explained how he was going to get rid of iPads in favour of surface pros.

    do not forget that there are many IT people whose only claim to fame is they are MS certified technicians.

    You can have fun though. I just got 15 iPads deployed.  When challenged over choice, I started my case with : "the surface pro is not fit for purpose."  The head of IT had apolexy.

    If interested, the purpose is rapid damage assessment in a disaster. You need a stand alone app that allows you to hold GIS map layers for offline use, GPS, wifi and cellular connection, light weight, long battery life. The surface pro could not match these, even the app, strangely enough.
    edited January 2016 hydrogen
  • Reply 25 of 86
    "Always" is a long time. As Apple keeps adding capabilities and functionality to their mobile devices, at some point the iPad (including Pro) will become more "standalone." The real strength is in the ecosystem and ability to move easily from one device to another (iOS to OS X to tvOS) so you can use the best device for the task or effectively and efficiently use the capabilities of the one you have with you.

    There are certainly pluses and minuses to the swiss army knife approach vs multiple dedicated tools.
  • Reply 26 of 86
    fallenjt said:
    MS SurfaceBook is a flop 
    Their Surface products just have a more "selective audience".  /s


    edited January 2016 stevie
  • Reply 27 of 86
    entropysentropys Posts: 3,610member
    nikon133 said:
    stevie said:

    Exactly right!

    The iPad Pro is "good enough" for most people.  For anybody else with their professional edge use cases, there is the Mac.
    iPad Air is already good for most people tablet needs. Pro does need to carve deeper into more serious part of computing, and offer apps that are comparable (or the same) with those people use for work. Without such software, Pro is just larger and faster iPad Air right now... but not many existing apps will really take advantage of that speed increase.

    The other thing is... Apple probably doesn't really want iPad Pro to discourage people from buying Mac (in any form). As such, they want iPPro to be companion device. More capable one, but still companion device. I think that makes sense.

    What is interesting for me is Microsoft's position. On one side, they don't have anything but Surface, so they can merge, replace, convert or do anything else they want to when it comes to tablet/laptop/computer formula. However, I'd expect they don't want to alienate OEMs too much, so they have to be somewhat diplomatic. Maybe that's why Surface is going only for higher-end, expensive convertible devices that are not atractive to "purists" who want only laptop or only tablet, without any convertibility sacrifices. Surface Pro is really not too bad, but Surface Book is quite outrageous, price wise.
    I wonder if Apple is worried about people buying an iPad pro over a MacBook Air or pro.   Which gives Apple a higher margin, iPad pro or MacBook Air/pro or that overpriced lame skinny MacBook?

    i am in the market for some laptops over the next week. A couple of MBAs and an ultrabook. The surface book isn't on the ultrabook list as its price is astronomical (probably HP spectre x360 FYI) . I just wish the MBAs had been updated.
    edited January 2016
  • Reply 28 of 86
    tmaytmay Posts: 5,762member
    entropys said:
    nikon133 said:
    iPad Air is already good for most people tablet needs. Pro does need to carve deeper into more serious part of computing, and offer apps that are comparable (or the same) with those people use for work. Without such software, Pro is just larger and faster iPad Air right now... but not many existing apps will really take advantage of that speed increase.

    The other thing is... Apple probably doesn't really want iPad Pro to discourage people from buying Mac (in any form). As such, they want iPPro to be companion device. More capable one, but still companion device. I think that makes sense.

    What is interesting for me is Microsoft's position. On one side, they don't have anything but Surface, so they can merge, replace, convert or do anything else they want to when it comes to tablet/laptop/computer formula. However, I'd expect they don't want to alienate OEMs too much, so they have to be somewhat diplomatic. Maybe that's why Surface is going only for higher-end, expensive convertible devices that are not atractive to "purists" who want only laptop or only tablet, without any convertibility sacrifices. Surface Pro is really not too bad, but Surface Book is quite outrageous, price wise.
    I wonder if Apple is worried about people buying an iPad pro over a MacBook Air or pro.   Which gives Apple a higher margin, iPad pro or MacBook Air/pro or that overpriced lame skinny MacBook?

    i am in the market for some laptops over the next week. A couple of MBAs and an ultrabook. The surface book isn't on the ultrabook list as its price is astronomical (probably HP spectre x360 FYI) . I just wish the MBAs had been updated.
    Apple doesn't worry about what you choose, just that you choose Apple as it is the best solution. Phil Schiller even stated as much in the 60 minutes interview:


    Phil Schiller: It's not a danger, it's almost by design. You need each of these products to try to fight for their space, their time with you. The iPhone has to become so great that you don't know why you want an iPad. The iPad has to be so great that you don't know why you why you want a notebook. The notebook has to be so great, you don't know why you want a desktop. Each one's job is to compete with the other ones.
    Rayz2016
  • Reply 29 of 86
    nikon133nikon133 Posts: 2,600member

    Subrandom said:
    I went back and forth between the iPad Pro and the Surface Pro 4, for about 90 minutes. I used them both, picked them up, ran apps on them, etc.

    I finally went with the iPad Pro. Not because the SP4 isn't a good device, it's actually very nice. But there were a few things that pushed me over the edge:

    1. The SP4 felt a lot thicker. I realize that in pure measurements, it isn't. But it felt more unwieldy in the hand.

    2. I intend to use it for photo work (among other things) while traveling. And Photoshop on a small screen is hellabad. It's intended to be run on full-size screens, the bigger the better.  It's great on my 27" 5K iMac. 

    But something like SnapSeed on the iPad Pro does everything I want without the bulk, and is made for my mobile device. I don't need a stylus to hit the itty-bitty UI elements, because it was designed for touch.

    3. Windows 10's ability to morph between desktop and tablet mode is nice. Maybe even the future.  But the number of "tablet friendly" apps that I actually care about is vanishingly small. The Office apps adapt nicely, but most other things, not so much. On the iPad, every app is designed for the tablet mode, because it's the only mode; of course, that's also a limitation, but one I ultimately decided was worth the trade off.

    This situation might resolve itself if developers get excited about making apps handle tablet mode, but right now it's no competition on the "tablet application" front; the IPad destroys the SP4 in both selection and quality.

    4. The iPad had cellular data availability. The SP4, astonishingly given it's prices, does not. I'd rather have a 3G connection out in the sticks someplace where there is no WiFi, than no connection at all.  This was really a huge deal breaker for me. 

    Finally, 5: Windows itself. As a longtime I.T. Professional directly involved in desktop management...I just don't want to deal with Windows potential issues, while I'm trying to get stuff done far from home. I know that's unfair. But years of supporting Windows has left me more than a little wary of it.

    I have plenty of critical things to say about iOS and it's limitations, and it was definitely a close fight between the SP4 and iPP.  Maybe next year, Microsoft. 
    Those are all valid elements. We all have different needs and habits at work/home/travel, and it is unlikely that one device/platform will cover all of them in the best possible way.

    My scenario, for example... I use Lightroom at home and when I travel and, while I'd love to see more tablet-friendly version, I don't have alternative yet. Since I depend on Lightroom library at home, I really need portable software that can fully integrate with my workflow at home. It can't just be capable enough RAW editor, it has to work well with Lightroom.

    I don't need many other "PC" software when away from home - email, RDS, Office apps can be done on tablets these days, to my knowledge. Even if iPad Office is not fully featured, as long as I can RDP to my company's terminal server, I can run Office from there.

    But there are PC features that iPad cannot provide to me. Not yet. Mostly with accessories and storage. I burn a lot of space with RAW photos, so I need my travel device to be able to store both RAWs and converts. I need to be able to back up my portable library to external device - I usually carry large USB flash or even USB HDD. I can keep photos on original SD cards, but if I lose my portable computer, I lose all the edits I have made... so I'd rather copy whole Lightroom library to another storage than just keeping RAWs on original SD cards from camera. I also like to carry a lot of TV, movies, comics when I travel. Sometimes I travel for 5 - 6 weeks at once, so there is always a lot of time to spend on media. My current travel device, Surface Pro 3, has only 128GB storage... but I can plug in microSD and USB flash, so I can easily get extra 256GB of storage without breaking bank or creating discomfort in handling it.

    The other thing I have learned traveling, many hotels - even (otherwise) quite decent ones have only wired Internet access in rooms. So I'm always carrying small USB3.0 hub with 3 USB ports and gigabit LAN port. Quite a lifesaver, not only when I need lan, but also when I want more than one USB device connected. I believe there is a way to make USB/LAN adapter to work with iPad, but it also requires powered USB hub, Lightning-to-USB adapter... not as straightforward as solution I'm using with Surface.

    So all in all, iPad just doesn't cover all my travel needs. I could still use iPad as a tablet at home and have light laptop for travels, but since I use desktop at home - and it is quite solid desktop, that laptop would be really poor investment, being used on average one month each year, when I am not at home. So I have Surface Pro 3 which is working hard for the money whole year - as a tablet at home, as a tablet and computer when away. For me, it is justified investment, and it covers my personal needs really well. 
  • Reply 30 of 86
    nikon133nikon133 Posts: 2,600member

    jkichline said:
    Microsoft has a very narrow view of what "business" is and that has been evolving quickly.  Its not longer word processing and spreadsheets. Many new business users make use of web-based services and apps to collaborate and developers to those disruptive businesses are developing for iOS first.  Microsoft's vision is not forward future thinking but is trying to maintain the cash cows of the past.
    Not really... they are heavily moving from volume licensing to cloud hosting and subscription. Azure, Office365... And they are getting aggressive with hardware. Real hardware, not keyboards, mice and webcams. MS might look like the same old, but for those who follow it closely, MS today is quite a different beast.

    Not to mention that even Apple gave them a nod with iPad Pro, adopting some of strong Surface points first time in iPad's line life. That's quite flattering for company suffering "intellectual bankruptcy", I'd dare to say.
  • Reply 31 of 86
    I can't say that I disagree with the point of the iPad (Pro) being a companion device. If iOS supported things like docking and extended displays, versus just mirroring, I think they'd get a lot closer. In terms of pure compute power, I'd bet a few dollars that the iPad Pro is right there with the Surface Pro. I think it's the OS though that holds it back. And FWIW I'm typing this on an iPad Pro. 
    I don't disagree with you at all. I also think iOS has matured and become much more sophisticated as an OS in recent years and I expect that trend to continue. The next big move for the OS is to allow devices to extend beyond the one you're holding (as you rightly call out re: docking and extended displays, plus I'd add other peripherals) - I think we'll see exactly those things addressed in upcoming releases because those are the things that make the OS and iOS devices in general even more powerful. I think the smart connector on the iPad Pro is something they most likely have more plans for than just attaching a flexible keyboard, I'd bet those 3 little dots have a grand future, and most likely on more than just the big iPad.
  • Reply 32 of 86
    Unlike this idiot I have actually put the iPad Pro to the test. I have the keyboard and pencil. I run a successful distribution business. The only thing that is missing is true multi monitor support. For that I use my MBP. Otherwise I only need my iPad Pro. It works great in every way. I use Microsoft BI for data reporting to keep tabs on my business. Other than that I really do not need Pro Apps for what I do. My sales staff uses iPad as well. Most of our data is generated by the applications we use so data entry is a thing of the past for us.
  • Reply 33 of 86
    tmaytmay Posts: 5,762member
    nikon133 said:

    jkichline said:
    Microsoft has a very narrow view of what "business" is and that has been evolving quickly.  Its not longer word processing and spreadsheets. Many new business users make use of web-based services and apps to collaborate and developers to those disruptive businesses are developing for iOS first.  Microsoft's vision is not forward future thinking but is trying to maintain the cash cows of the past.
    Not really... they are heavily moving from volume licensing to cloud hosting and subscription. Azure, Office365... And they are getting aggressive with hardware. Real hardware, not keyboards, mice and webcams. MS might look like the same old, but for those who follow it closely, MS today is quite a different beast.

    Not to mention that even Apple gave them a nod with iPad Pro, adopting some of strong Surface points first time in iPad's line life. That's quite flattering for company suffering "intellectual bankruptcy", I'd dare to say.
    Just out of curiosity, what would those "strong Surface points first time in iPad's line life" be?
  • Reply 34 of 86
    netroxnetrox Posts: 1,224member
    Damn, why can't they understand what Steve Jobs was talking about regarding stylus?!?! He was correct saying that we shouldn't use stylus as the primary input but rather use touch gestures when executing commands or tasks. Prior to iPhone, many phones require stylus for input. To this day, we use touch gestures as the primary input. Pencil is NOT a substitute for gestures. It's designed for drawing, writing, and painting. It's not meant to be used as a primary source of input for commands and will never be.
  • Reply 35 of 86
    fallenjt said:
    MS SurfaceBook is a flop 
    I'm curious to know if the Surface Pro has actually been the success we're all lead to believe. Nearly every article you read says the Surface Pro 3 was a great success, but no one has any actual numbers. I know MS doesn't report them, but nearly every Microsoft sycophantic journalist (which is most, especially the big ones) just reports it as a success without divulging *why* they think it's a success, based on what criteria (or they use something nebulous like stock shortages, which mean nothing, or "I bought one and love it" as if that means success for everyone else). The whole tech journalist system is in cahoots and everyone seems to take it as an established fact that indeed it's a success. Is it a success because they didn't have to trash as many of the v3 of the product as they did with v2 and v1? Does that make it a success?

    Even if you believe all the hype, the numbers are still dwarfed (DWARFED) by iPads, so WTF? Why are we even comparing these two products, they're different in so many ways, not least of which is sales.
    edited January 2016
  • Reply 36 of 86
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,251member
    anome said:
    It disappoints me that MS are still following the same philosophy - "Windows on Everything!"

    Apple's philosophy has always been "Keep the hard stuff out of sight of the user." So tailor your software to the platform it's running on, and do all the work of compatability at the back end.

    So when MS design a tablet, you need a stylus for the UI elements that don't scale properly, and a keyboard for text input, but you can run exactly the same software on it as on your desktop PC.

    When Apple design a tablet, they redesign the UI elements to work properly on the platform, design the hardware to provide optimal performance for a tablet, and create a model for iOS and MacOS apps to complement eachother.

    Which of these models is more succesful? Well which one is selling more tablets, even to users of the other's desktop OS?
    You don't need the stylus for non touch / desktop applications.  The SP4 keyboard includes a trackpad for those applications, while you can use touch for universal apps. 
  • Reply 37 of 86
    tmaytmay Posts: 5,762member
    fallenjt said:
    MS SurfaceBook is a flop 
    I'm curious to know if the Surface Pro has actually been the success we're all lead to believe. Nearly every article you read says the Surface Pro 3 was a great success, but no one has any actual numbers. I know MS doesn't report them, but nearly every Microsoft sycophantic journalist (which is most, especially the big ones) just reports it as a success without divulging *why* they think it's a success, based on what criteria (or they use something nebulous like stock shortages, which mean nothing, or "I bought one and love it" as if that means success for everyone else). The whole tech journalist system is in cahoots and everyone seems to take it as an established fact that indeed it's a success. Is it a success because they didn't have to trash as many of the v3 of the product as they did with v2 and v1? Does that make it a success?

    Even if you believe all the hype, the numbers are still dwarfed (DWARFED) by iPads, so WTF? Why are we even comparing these two products, they're different in so many ways, not least of which is sales.
    Surface likely makes less revenue than Apple Watch.
    williamlondon
  • Reply 38 of 86
    anomeanome Posts: 1,483member
    danvm said:
    anome said:
    It disappoints me that MS are still following the same philosophy - "Windows on Everything!"

    Apple's philosophy has always been "Keep the hard stuff out of sight of the user." So tailor your software to the platform it's running on, and do all the work of compatability at the back end.

    So when MS design a tablet, you need a stylus for the UI elements that don't scale properly, and a keyboard for text input, but you can run exactly the same software on it as on your desktop PC.

    When Apple design a tablet, they redesign the UI elements to work properly on the platform, design the hardware to provide optimal performance for a tablet, and create a model for iOS and MacOS apps to complement eachother.

    Which of these models is more succesful? Well which one is selling more tablets, even to users of the other's desktop OS?
    You don't need the stylus for non touch / desktop applications.  The SP4 keyboard includes a trackpad for those applications, while you can use touch for universal apps. 
    Which defeats the purpose of having a tablet. A tablet is supposed to be extremely portable, and usable with one hand while holding it in the other. Any attempt at a hybrid device, one that can be used as either a tablet or a PC, is going to require compromising functionality in one or both operating modes.

    Personally, I prefer a trackpad to a touch screen as an input device, just not when I'm using my iPad, since most of the software has been properly designed for touch.
  • Reply 39 of 86
    You know, I'm glad it's a companion device. The apps I use on my iPad for my job are only available on the iPad and I would never want them to be available on my MacBook Pro as it would be to cumbersome. 
  • Reply 40 of 86
    metrix said:
    This is the same mistake all these mfgs. keep making. The actual number of people that need professional applications are very small compare to the people that "just want to play around".  I don't know anyone willing to pay Adobe for their suite of applications except paid designers however there is probably 1000 times more people that want to do some cheap photo effects or basic design. Microsoft is right you can't run Photoshop on the iPad Pro but for the casual user you probably going to save a lot more money buying apps from the Apps Store than full fledged software packages. 
    Agreed... But for someone like me... Who loves his interaction witn ipads.... I want to be able to run full fleged apps.. Like photoshop.. Or some seriouse 3d modeling, animation app. 

    Whete is apples solution for me?  Ipadpro and the Uber Cool pencil are great... But still no real cigar for  what i want to do . 

    Im convincecd that apple will eventually introduce a mind blowing solution.
    it will come in a form  of a hybrid ( super slim macbook , a la new macbook ) Swivel and fold or detach ....with inteligent Adaptable os platform . .... They are just denying initiatives in these areas , i believe, to misdirect the  market on what their intentions are ....
    imho
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