What Apple would have to do to comply with Donald Trump's American-built mandate

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  • Reply 61 of 191
    "This would, he believes, give companies a significant economic incentive to bring manufacturing jobs back to the U.S." A little honest reporting would be appreciated. The "incentive to bring manufacturing jobs back" isn't the 35% tax. Nobody ever quotes him right. The incentive is that he's lowering corporate taxes from 35% to 15%, which puts the United States as one of the most favorable places on the planet to run a business. In fact, it would be 10% cheaper than China. That's the incentive. The 35% tax is his 'ultimatum' in his speeches if they don't come back. Technically speaking, a adding a tariff wouldn't be an incentive. He's also incorporating a one-time low repatriation tax of 10% which is favorable, as well. Tim Cook was recently quotes as saying that "it would cost him 40% to bring it home and I don't think that's reasonable to do." So the corporate tax is very favorable and so would be the repatriation tax. Companies should like this.
    tallest skiltrumptman
  • Reply 62 of 191
    Wait, you just jumped to a 35% increase in price with no explanation.

    If "... currently peg labor costs at no more than $5 per iPhone" is true, and China's $300 vs. Wyoming's $1200 per worker is also true, then the labor cost of an iPhone would rise from $5 to $20, an increase of $15.

    Where do you come up with $227 more dollars?
  • Reply 63 of 191

    slurpy said:
    So...communism then. Or fascism. At any rate, the government would control everything. 


    We conservatives are doing our best to stop this maniac, but we're probably going to have to destroy the GOP to do it, so...buckle up. 
    Well, "your best" is pretty pathetic then, since he's in the lead by leaps and bounds. Face it, he's the face of your party, and the dream candidate of "conservatives" and most republicans in the US- he's who they want. What does that say about the GOP and their voters? Own it. He's the natural product of the nastiness the party and its candidates have been espousing for years, and they created his base.  And I've seen enough of your posts to know that you participate and condone this nastiness, on multiple levels. 
    So, just to get this on record; you, the Bush family, and the Koch brothers are political allies now?

    I'm getting confused lately as to which side people were really on in the first place.
    frankie
  • Reply 64 of 191
    foggyhillfoggyhill Posts: 4,767member
    cmon man said:
    "This would, he believes, give companies a significant economic incentive to bring manufacturing jobs back to the U.S." A little honest reporting would be appreciated. The "incentive to bring manufacturing jobs back" isn't the 35% tax. Nobody ever quotes him right. The incentive is that he's lowering corporate taxes from 35% to 15%, which puts the United States as one of the most favorable places on the planet to run a business. In fact, it would be 10% cheaper than China. That's the incentive. The 35% tax is his 'ultimatum' in his speeches if they don't come back. Technically speaking, a adding a tariff wouldn't be an incentive. He's also incorporating a one-time low repatriation tax of 10% which is favorable, as well. Tim Cook was recently quotes as saying that "it would cost him 40% to bring it home and I don't think that's reasonable to do." So the corporate tax is very favorable and so would be the repatriation tax. Companies should like this.
    Do really believe that this is the reason why they do this in China... Come on. Trump will make believe ANYTHING and his overgrown baby crowd just gobble it up like sweet pablum..

    Also, what are the fracking other consequences of that lower taxes, you know, less revenue... Well, Trumpie doesn't give a shit about that; more jobs (sic) will take care of that... Were have we heard that before? Hmmmm.

    It's good ol' trickle down, just applied to company; cut taxes and you'll see, the treasury will eventually make money from the bubbling investments... Yup. It's the 1980s all over again.

    Were do we take this money we cut back... Hell, lets borrow it. Because we'll "obviously" be able to make up that X% borrowed + Inflation + whatever extra money from investment in the future... Easy peasy,  Never worked before, but hey, it will work now. Just keep watching the little shells as we move them around...

    So, more top1% and corporate welfare with no real garantee of it will work.
    Many companies right now are paying next to no taxes, how the hell will that make a difference.
    And what about the fact it would take several decades for this to actually work in a meaningful way (even if those magnanimous companies (sic)) would actually answer those largesses with actual investments while revenues from taxation is down for everyone for all that time.. No answer... Trust us.... Yeahhhhhh

    So, Trickle dee, trickle dumb.... Same crap as before.
    edited January 2016 frankie
  • Reply 65 of 191
    foggyhillfoggyhill Posts: 4,767member
    Many other posters before me have covered most of the other things, so I'll just say to the rest of the group: good job ferreting out the truth of the matter on those issues!  There's no technological issue that's a problem, just logistics and regulations.

    Now, I'd like to point out a flaw that nobody else has posted, as referenced in the article: the statement that robots aren't nimble/dexterous enough to replace the humans used in China (or anywhere else).

    My background: I'm formally trained in robotics/automation and the related industrial technology, and I'm in the process of designing my own 3D printer, with a notably different design for the mechanics.

    There's a specific generalized 3D printer design known as the delta https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_robot that has been adapted to 3D printing.  As you can see from the wikipedia page, one of its uses is in electronic component placement.  If you look at a modern circuit board for any computing device, the parts are tiny to the point where the most nimble of human beings would be slow, at best, handling them while doing assembly.  The pick-and-place robots can place several hundred of those in a minute.  They're absurdly precise for their costs, as well as being far faster than any human.

    Where humans are going to be more useful in comparison to the robots is in being able to be rapidly trained to make common sense decisions as applicable to whole-phone assembly: it's not a technical limitation of automation at all, and the needed customization for assembly is rather limited and cheap: it just takes time to program and reprogram and test automated assembly lines to get exactly what you want out of them, but once you do, if you've managed to get all the right testing into the assembly process, it'd be faster and more consistent than using humans.

    And here comes the next part of that equation: now that you've got all these robots, you need people to maintain and program them, and they're a bit more expensive and harder to find: once there's enough demand for them long enough with the requisite pay, that'll correct itself.  One person can maintain and program a very large number of robots/hard automation (not all automation needs to be as flexible as a robot: the distinction between what's a robot and what's not is that a robot can be reprogrammed, that's all: "BattleBots" on TV uses merely weaponized remote control toys, but there's not a single thing that makes them a robot ).
    Yes, If manufacturing does come back to the US, it won't employ any of those Trump talks to, and it will only employ 1/100 of the people originally employed in manufacturing.
    Moving it to the US for the interim would be both pointless and costly for Apple.
  • Reply 66 of 191
    pmcdpmcd Posts: 396member
    As a non American, my view that this man is a danger to the world. He won't save the USA.
    I am not a fan either but I really doubt he is any more dangerous to the world than most other politicians. There are plenty of checks and balances in the US government so that leaders can rarely do what they say they will. In any case, what is said during the nomination process is largely tactical. You have to take things with a grain of salt. Trump has brought many ears to the electoral process and those people get to hear many views. 

    No one person will save the USA which in any case doesn't require saving. 

    Many of the issues Mr. Trump has brought up in his rather blunt way are worth discussing. That is happening and everyone will benefit in the end.

    The manufacturing issue as relates to Apple is a topic that many have mentioned in the context of global industries. Many people feel powerless in their own backyards and their concerns should be addressed. If it takes a rather tactless type to do so then that's the price for the more gentile leaders having done nothing to mitigate the effects of border less financing with mobility challenged citizens.
  • Reply 67 of 191
    ksecksec Posts: 1,568member
    Tim Cook has those answered already. Not idea why anyone would want to dispute an operation genius in our era.

    1. Even if the wages of Chinese Employees were the same as US, they are much quicker, efficient and skillful. In some cases their speed and reflex are literally faster then robots. That is not to say US worker aren't skillful at all, but as Tim Cook has sad, they were well trained to be like that.

    2. There are millions of them. Millions! You can, should the need arise, gather much more services worker in the short space of time. This is skillful worker on demand!. US doesn't even have 1/10 of it.

    3. You are completing with the Shenzen Ecosystem. You can literally source parts within days if not hours. With Custom parts and testing machine ready in dozen of days. Extremely Agile and cost competitive. 

    Basically they are extremely good if not the best in some parts of manufacturing and the arguably the best in assembling.   

    The problems with Robots - We will definitely see Robots taking over most of Foxconn jobs within next 5 - 10 years. There is a reason why China wants to change the economy from export and heavy manufacturing to services and consumption. But it isn't ready yet, and it doesn't scale well and as agile as an Chinese workers.

    One reason I think Apple wanted to make Apple Car is not only for the Care alone, but the manufacturing expertise within that industry. Cars, has to be the most automated factory line in most industry. As a matter of fact a few Car manufacturer now have Subsidiary that act as consultant company to help Automated and improve efficiency for other industry partners.

    To have the dream of Steve Jobs making products using purely Robots, Apple must master the technique there are now and use their innovation on those iPhone Production line.

  • Reply 68 of 191
    sully54sully54 Posts: 104member
    trump has basically alienated all the right wing billionaires in the US who depend on outsourcing manufacturing. the global economy would come crashing down if this were to happen. and don't think that won't affect the US one bit.

    don't worry this (trump) too shall pass.
    frankie
  • Reply 69 of 191
    k2kwk2kw Posts: 2,071member
    trumptman 
    The techs have been the worst at this by far.
    Yep basically rich democratic executives get their payoff in H1b visas in return for supporting immigration reform.

    and rich republican execs will get their payoff from millions of new cheap laborers.

    only Trump can upset this apple cart.   I'm a liberal democrat who is ready to support TRUMP.
  • Reply 70 of 191
    sully54 said:
    trump has basically alienated all the right wing billionaires in the US who depend on outsourcing manufacturing. 
    Good. Why care? Their votes aren’t enough to get him elected.
    the global economy would come crashing down if this were to happen.
    Don’t worry. The global economy will collapse before the election, anyway.
    frankie
  • Reply 71 of 191
    You are aready paying $876 a phone by drinking water with lead in it, having over 13% of the population receiving food stamps, and driving on crowded highways with potholes causing the average driver several hundred dollars in extra repairs a year. Do you know that the US commonwealth of Puerto Rico has 1/3rd of its residents living on food stamps provided by the US Federal government?  Seems to me Apple could build a plant there. That's okay though.  Keep making these cases for massive inflation in product costs and have Apple keep billions and billions of dollars offshore until the point where there is no one left to buy an iPhone anyway.  It's ugly capitalism, and I am as capitalistic as they come (I own my own business and work harder than most) but the Rockfellers had basically slave labor and children building their mansions before there was regulation.  Ironically though, the genius in Tim Cook avoiding taxes and keeping the money offshore has been almost completely negated by one little factor -- the rise in the US Dollar.  Imagine what we could have done with all the money if he didn't lose as much as 30% of it to exchange rate fluctuations in recent months!
    frankie
  • Reply 72 of 191
    ksec said:
    Tim Cook has those answered already. Not idea why anyone would want to dispute an operation genius in our era.

    1. Even if the wages of Chinese Employees were the same as US, they are much quicker, efficient and skillful. In some cases their speed and reflex are literally faster then robots. That is not to say US worker aren't skillful at all, but as Tim Cook has sad, they were well trained to be like that.

    This sounds like Steve Jobs with his statement about filing down fingers to work on smaller tablets: it's a nice sound byte to justify a decision, but nobody has actually had to file down their fingers to use smaller tablets, and I'd wager that the humans aren't going to be faster than proper automation.  The problem is that we may never see this put to a real test because there's a rather large up-front cost to replacing humans with automation, combined with the reality that it's far harder to hire and keep people qualified to maintain and program the robots to do the work: they're far more skilled and need to be far better-educated to do that, as that requires, at a minimum, some decent tech school diploma or a college degree, depending on details.  The typical hand assembly worker only needs to follow fairly simple instructions, repeatedly.

    2. There are millions of them. Millions! You can, should the need arise, gather much more services worker in the short space of time. This is skillful worker on demand!. US doesn't even have 1/10 of it.

    The reality is the skill level of the worker revolves far more around the requirement to be good enough and fast enough at dexterity while doing something extremely boring non-stop for long hours with no real chance to move up in the world at work.  Because there is such a huge supply of potential workers, they can fulfill the demand, even with how boring and tedious the work is.  Don't be mistaken in thinking it requires a deep skill set and long training to do phone final assembly: I've worked in an electronics assembly factory back in 91, it most assuredly does not.  If something doesn't work, they have simple procedures to follow: it's not like they're going to spend a real amount of time trying to diagnose it and fix it: electronic devices haven't been that way for longer than smartphones have existed.  Most US workers won't tolerate the sort of work environment they're required to work in, and do that sort of work: there are the 3 D's of what's automated, and those are Dirty, Dull and Dangerous.  At a bare minimum, iPhone assembly is Dull.  With the solvents involved, it's also likely Dangerous in portions of it. 

    3. You are completing with the Shenzen Ecosystem. You can literally source parts within days if not hours. With Custom parts and testing machine ready in dozen of days. Extremely Agile and cost competitive. 

    Having everything all close together to where even if the roads shut down it doesn't matter has very distinct advantages for iteration that's not commonly available here, and it'd need to be replicated here to be as agile.  I grew up in the Detroit area, and there has been a large amount of that sort of thing there for the automotive realm.  Large-scale assembly and manufacturing lives and dies by logistics.

    Basically they are extremely good if not the best in some parts of manufacturing and the arguably the best in assembling.   

    The problems with Robots - We will definitely see Robots taking over most of Foxconn jobs within next 5 - 10 years. There is a reason why China wants to change the economy from export and heavy manufacturing to services and consumption. But it isn't ready yet, and it doesn't scale well and as agile as an Chinese workers.

    One reason I think Apple wanted to make Apple Car is not only for the Care alone, but the manufacturing expertise within that industry. Cars, has to be the most automated factory line in most industry. As a matter of fact a few Car manufacturer now have Subsidiary that act as consultant company to help Automated and improve efficiency for other industry partners.

    To have the dream of Steve Jobs making products using purely Robots, Apple must master the technique there are now and use their innovation on those iPhone Production line.


  • Reply 73 of 191
    evilutionevilution Posts: 1,398member
    If this nonsence actually came into play, Apple would really only have 1 option. Register in a different country and no longer be an American company.
  • Reply 74 of 191
    foggyhill said:
    There is no misrepresentation and you are a Trump supporter or you wouldn't even attempt to defend his crap.
    I'm going by the language… this article says "Mandate" and "Force"… no such language was in his speech. 

    I will defend ANYbody from misrepresentation of what is actually said.

    And I am not a Trump supporter -- I simply despise poor journalism.
    anonconformistcmon mantallest skil
  • Reply 75 of 191
    My MacPros were built in the good ol' USA and probably cost a bit more than those built overseas. Is it worth it? Sure. More jobs to 'mericans. I suppose all prices would go up except for the MacPros. Our citizens will get what they want by any means possible. Feel the bern.
    frankie
  • Reply 76 of 191
    Some think that Trump is not likely to change the system that benefits the 1%, but I am not so sure.

    We have evidence that Hillary helped foreign multi-nationals (UBS for example) while in the statehouse after such entities would conveniently pay for $200,000/hr speeches, so we know she implements policy/bureaucracy for money. This is the classic case of corporatism that most politicians fall for on some level.

    Trump doesn't have to fall for it because he has already won at life.

    With Hillary, there is a 0% chance the system changes, but I believe it is non-zero with Trump. He honesty might have been annoyed that he had to pay off politicians to get permits.

    He also understands that managers don't have to know everything, they just have to be deal makers that understand people and psychology. He recognizes experts and could possibly put competent people in place (as he has at most of his businesses).

    Trump says crazy things because, as he has admitted, the media give him free advertising for it. Trump is actually going to be the first to make a profit after running for presidency. That's unthinkable.

    Whatever your views may be, Trump is less of a risk for the 99% than Hillary is. 

    Also, those against single payer are against basic economics.

    The cost of health care = (cost of per unit health activity) * (# of health activities)

    We know Americans don't go to the doctor nearly as much as in most places in the world, so (# of health activities) is quite low.

    However, we also know that our costs are 5-10x in comparison to other nations.

    Without a single market we don't have economies of scale (which raise costs). This is what single payer means: create economies of scale in your health market.

    QED.
  • Reply 77 of 191
    sergiozsergioz Posts: 338member
    Why go backwards, why in hell do you want manufacturing jobs back, why do you want repetitive mindless jobs brought back to US? It's given that Trump is a clown! It's informational age where people use their brains to make a $ and any normal American would rather be using a computer then building one from scratch. 
  • Reply 78 of 191
    Bringing back some number of repetitive mindless jobs is better than the current system that puts those people who would have those jobs on the govt. dole and in jobs that pay so low that they can't support a family. This leads to societal issues because many of these people start abusing drugs and heroine. Just look at what has happened to the rust belt, the demographic crisis is similar to what happened during the black plague. 

    Just because the elite don't want these jobs doesn't mean they can destroy these families just to raise their incomes. (remember, these people who are a part of our society and helped build its foundation have had no gains in the wealth creation which has went entirely to the 1%).
    tallest skilfrankie
  • Reply 79 of 191
    foggyhill said:
    cmon man said:
    "This would, he believes, give companies a significant economic incentive to bring manufacturing jobs back to the U.S." A little honest reporting would be appreciated. The "incentive to bring manufacturing jobs back" isn't the 35% tax. Nobody ever quotes him right. The incentive is that he's lowering corporate taxes from 35% to 15%, which puts the United States as one of the most favorable places on the planet to run a business. In fact, it would be 10% cheaper than China. That's the incentive. The 35% tax is his 'ultimatum' in his speeches if they don't come back. Technically speaking, a adding a tariff wouldn't be an incentive. He's also incorporating a one-time low repatriation tax of 10% which is favorable, as well. Tim Cook was recently quotes as saying that "it would cost him 40% to bring it home and I don't think that's reasonable to do." So the corporate tax is very favorable and so would be the repatriation tax. Companies should like this.
    Do really believe that this is the reason why they do this in China... Come on. Trump will make believe ANYTHING and his overgrown baby crowd just gobble it up like sweet pablum..

    Also, what are the fracking other consequences of that lower taxes, you know, less revenue... Well, Trumpie doesn't give a shit about that; more jobs (sic) will take care of that... Were have we heard that before? Hmmmm.

    It's good ol' trickle down, just applied to company; cut taxes and you'll see, the treasury will eventually make money from the bubbling investments... Yup. It's the 1980s all over again.

    Were do we take this money we cut back... Hell, lets borrow it. Because we'll "obviously" be able to make up that X% borrowed + Inflation + whatever extra money from investment in the future... Easy peasy,  Never worked before, but hey, it will work now. Just keep watching the little shells as we move them around...

    So, more top1% and corporate welfare with no real garantee of it will work.
    Many companies right now are paying next to no taxes, how the hell will that make a difference.
    And what about the fact it would take several decades for this to actually work in a meaningful way (even if those magnanimous companies (sic)) would actually answer those largesses with actual investments while revenues from taxation is down for everyone for all that time.. No answer... Trust us.... Yeahhhhhh

    So, Trickle dee, trickle dumb.... Same crap as before.
    Nice politically-charged rant, but I didn't see you offer even one solution. I just gave you the 'incentive' as to why companies would come back (while correcting the article's premise). What solution did you provide? ... because I didn't see one. Here's the reality. The tax plan that Donald Trump is putting in place is FAR MORE ADVANTAGEOUS to companies than Bernie's plan, than Hillary's plan, than Jeb's plan, than Cruz's plan. Apple (and every other company that has left) are much more likely to come back under his very forgiving tax plan than ANY of those other candidates'. You can't even argue that. Less taxes = better incentive. You can whine about trickle down, but you can't dispute it.

    And if you want to make it political I'll offer a different point of view (disclosure: I'm an undecided Independent). Bernie Sanders (who I like) is raising taxes on the wealthy and corporations. There's more incentive to LEAVE than to COME BACK. Example: Just a few short years ago, France raised taxes on the wealthy in attempt to gather revenue to cover the costs of their social democratic infrastructure. 2 years ago they scrapped it as their wealthy and many corporations ended up leaving for other countries. They were criticized heavily. Right now, France is literally in a state of emergency with a total lack of jobs... partly because companies moved to where taxes weren't so high.

    "Same crap as before."

    One could write that reply to any one of the posts you barf up. 
    ben20tallest skil
  • Reply 80 of 191
    frankiefrankie Posts: 380member
    cmon man said:
    foggyhill said:
    Do really believe that this is the reason why they do this in China... Come on. Trump will make believe ANYTHING and his overgrown baby crowd just gobble it up like sweet pablum..

    Also, what are the fracking other consequences of that lower taxes, you know, less revenue... Well, Trumpie doesn't give a shit about that; more jobs (sic) will take care of that... Were have we heard that before? Hmmmm.

    It's good ol' trickle down, just applied to company; cut taxes and you'll see, the treasury will eventually make money from the bubbling investments... Yup. It's the 1980s all over again.

    Were do we take this money we cut back... Hell, lets borrow it. Because we'll "obviously" be able to make up that X% borrowed + Inflation + whatever extra money from investment in the future... Easy peasy,  Never worked before, but hey, it will work now. Just keep watching the little shells as we move them around...

    So, more top1% and corporate welfare with no real garantee of it will work.
    Many companies right now are paying next to no taxes, how the hell will that make a difference.
    And what about the fact it would take several decades for this to actually work in a meaningful way (even if those magnanimous companies (sic)) would actually answer those largesses with actual investments while revenues from taxation is down for everyone for all that time.. No answer... Trust us.... Yeahhhhhh

    So, Trickle dee, trickle dumb.... Same crap as before.
    Nice politically-charged rant, but I didn't see you offer even one solution. I just gave you the 'incentive' as to why companies would come back (while correcting the article's premise). What solution did you provide? ... because I didn't see one. Here's the reality. The tax plan that Donald Trump is putting in place is FAR MORE ADVANTAGEOUS to companies than Bernie's plan, than Hillary's plan, than Jeb's plan, than Cruz's plan. Apple (and every other company that has left) are much more likely to come back under his very forgiving tax plan than ANY of those other candidates'. You can't even argue that. Less taxes = better incentive. You can whine about trickle down, but you can't dispute it.

    And if you want to make it political I'll offer a different point of view (disclosure: I'm an undecided Independent). Bernie Sanders (who I like) is raising taxes on the wealthy and corporations. There's more incentive to LEAVE than to COME BACK. Example: Just a few short years ago, France raised taxes on the wealthy in attempt to gather revenue to cover the costs of their social democratic infrastructure. 2 years ago they scrapped it as their wealthy and many corporations ended up leaving for other countries. They were criticized heavily. Right now, France is literally in a state of emergency with a total lack of jobs... partly because companies moved to where taxes weren't so high.

    "Same crap as before."

    One could write that reply to any one of the posts you barf up. 

    Last year the Democrats tried to pass a bill that would give huge tax cuts to companies that kelp jobs in America and the ENTIRE GOP voted agains it.

    Why?  Because most of these companies don't pay taxes anyway.

    1 in 4 huge corps pays ZERO or actual makes money from the Feds.  In the 2 minutes you've been reading this Exxon Mobile pocketed $7,000 of YOUR tax money.  And they do it EVERY 2 minutes.  Look it up. 


    The average ACTUAL reported taxes paid is more like 10% already.

    It's been reported there is over 2 TRILLION in unpaid taxes out there.  


    Right now profits have never been higher compared to wages lower in ALL OF US HISTORY.  EVER.


    Right now the richest 64 people own more wealth than 3.5 BILLION>

    The 6 families of Walmart own more wealth than almost HALF of the entire United States of America.

    Right now 99% of ALL the money being given to the candidates for the 2016 election is given by 158 families.  BILLIONS upon BILLIONS.


    BUYING our government through horrible decisions like Citizen's United should  be illegal, which is what allows this BS in the first place.



    And as far as I can see it, Bernie Sanders in the ONLY PERSON even talking about this stuff.


    propod
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