Apple may have a lot of banks signed up, but they need to do a better job getting retailers and restaurants to sign up.
Many retailers upgraded their terminals just recently to read chip cards but for some reason most did not opt for NFC capable devices. Probably a cost savings. Anyway, they are not likely to upgrade again for quite awhile. Verifone makes a nice portable terminal, VX 690, that supports Apple Pay and would be ideal for restaurants.
Our local grocery store used to be the only place around that took Apple Pay. They just changed all of their terminals to the chip design and took NFC off. I was told that NFC screwed with the chip reader. Probably just a few bucks more for NFC and they were cheapos.
On a side note: has anyone ever used Apple Pay at a restaurant?
I can't imagine giving the waiter my iPhone to scan at the register. Do they bring the terminal to you?
Which is why I constantly suggest ApplePay iPods and iPads. I get bashed for that for some reason. There's restaurants that literally take your order on an iPod touch.
Many retailers upgraded their terminals just recently to read chip cards but for some reason most did not opt for NFC capable devices. Probably a cost savings. Anyway, they are not likely to upgrade again for quite awhile. Verifone makes a nice portable terminal, VX 690, that supports Apple Pay and would be ideal for restaurants.
Our local grocery store used to be the only place around that took Apple Pay. They just changed all of their terminals to the chip design and took NFC off. I was told that NFC screwed with the chip reader. Probably just a few bucks more for NFC and they were cheapos.
This type of situation is where Samsung Pay's MST really shows it's benefits. It may be another ten years before that grocery store updates their terminals again. As a Samsung Pay user I can pay everywhere with tokenization right now instead of waiting for cheap or stubborn retailers to upgrade their terminals. And If a store happens to have NFC, Samsung Pay also works seemlessly with NFC.
I live in California and Apple Pay is still very limited. Most of the restaurants I often go to don't accept Apple Pay, and restaurants in the U.S. never brings to terminal to the customer.
Really? Where in California?
I I live in Los Angeles.. Here's where I use Apple Pay so far and for what items..
1) Whole Foods Market 2) Chevron Texaco 3) Subway 4) McDonalds 5) Petco 6) Trader Joes 7) Rite Aid 8) Walgreens 9) Best Buy 10) Open Table App - allows use at MANY restaurants 11) Target App 12) Gelsons Markets 13) Disneyland and Disney California Adventure Park, rolling out now 14) Five Guys Burgers 15) El Pollo Loco 16) Macys 17) Jamba Juice 18) Johnny Rockets 19) Homegoods, TJMax 20) Forever 21 21) Microsoft Store -
That's still a small list compared to the number of places that will accept Samsung Pay.
In Canada they bring the terminal to you, about 99% of the time in my experience.
Why would anyone ever let the waiter take a credit card to their register? This leaves the opportunity for the waiter to write down the card number, expiry date and three-digit security code, and then rush home at the end of the shift and try charging thousands of dollars on an internet shopping site. It happened to me in Florida last year. If a restaurant does not bring the terminal to the table, I always accompany the waiter to the register, Apple Pay or not.
Never let a credit card be handled by anyone else!
Yes, many Canadian restaurants now have wireless terminals that are brought to the table.. But before that became the norm, slipping your card into the bill-fold and letting the waiter walk away with it was the norm.
In Canada they bring the terminal to you, about 99% of the time in my experience.
Why would anyone ever let the waiter take a credit card to their register? This leaves the opportunity for the waiter to write down the card number, expiry date and three-digit security code, and then rush home at the end of the shift and try charging thousands of dollars on an internet shopping site. It happened to me in Florida last year. If a restaurant does not bring the terminal to the table, I always accompany the waiter to the register, Apple Pay or not.
Never let a credit card be handled by anyone else!
Interesting comment.
Come and think of it, we here in HK have been :
- we ask for the bill - waiter come to my table with the bill - we drop him the credit card and he goes to the cashier with the card while we are still chatting in our table - he comes back with the receipt asking us to sign our signature on it - he passes back the card with a copy of the receipt (the carbon-copy with our signature) straight away
for God know how many years!!!!
may be it is the norm here and we never question this practice.
Let me try n buy something with my wife's CC receipt and see if it works.....of course I don't know her CC pins...
ApplePay is all over the UK, but we've had NFC terminals for years. It's odd that all the terminals show Apple logos, even though any NFC device should work.
And the £30 limit is annoying, but that's the banks for you…
You folks give the general public far too much credit for making intelligent product choices (think VHS vs Betamax etc., etc., etc.), and at the same time, you give Samsung far too little credit for their ability to appeal to that lower "common denominator" (think...well, everything they make and do). The first thing I thought the first time I saw an ad for Samsung Pay was, that they'd perfectly gauged how to make it seem simple and universally appealing to people who, unlike almost all of you, simply don't grasp the technical reasons why Pay is superior and secure (think, the vast majority of humans with cards). Apple hasn't done that good a job explaining that to suburbia, however well you more sophisticated urbanites may think it's penetrating - merchants don't get it, customers don't get it - and there is fertile ground for even Samsung to succeed, as they often do, by appealing to a larger percentage of "dimwits" (too harsh?).
You folks give the general public far too much credit for making intelligent product choices (think VHS vs Betamax etc., etc., etc.), and at the same time, you give Samsung far too little credit for their ability to appeal to that lower "common denominator" (think...well, everything they make and do). The first thing I thought the first time I saw an ad for Samsung Pay was, that they'd perfectly gauged how to make it seem simple and universally appealing to people who, unlike almost all of you, simply don't grasp the technical reasons why Pay is superior and secure (think, the vast majority of humans with cards). Apple hasn't done that good a job explaining that to suburbia, however well you more sophisticated urbanites may think it's penetrating - merchants don't get it, customers don't get it - and there is fertile ground for even Samsung to succeed, as they often do, by appealing to a larger percentage of "dimwits" (too harsh?).
Except,. Samsung didn't take care of bank side all that much, so they're not really doing all that better than Apple. They'll only do better if within the next year, NFC terminals, despite the mandate, don't get more plentiful, and they take care of the whole bank side.
At most, they'd have a short term perception win, except the people that buy Samsungs, use less of every function than the Iphone buyers, so it only truly applies to a very small number of people.
One of the reason people don't use either system, Apple or Samsung, is that it's not yet seen as something that much better than taking the cards out. In parts because of cluelessness on the merchant side making the whole transactions more obtuse than they need to be,
That's a perception problem for the tech in general. As store fidelity cards get included in the transaction (in your virtual wallet), which I believe Apple will have the advantage I believe.
The presentation itself declares how "Apple Pay will leverage the global tokenisation standard"
It then goes into great technical detail about how both tokenisation and Apple Pay work.
So why, as an employee, are you not aware of this? Thank you for your candour.
My comment was not about Apple Pay but about tokenization being used for Samsung NFC payments and not Samsung MST payments. That was my understanding. And while I do work for First Data I am not associated with the department that provides these services. Although, as a whole, we were all shown a presentation on it because First Data was very excited to be associated with these companies and wanted to make all employees aware.
Obviously we all know Apple Pay uses tokenization and encryption, that's basically the #1 reason to use it! For the added security.
FYI, Samsung Pay uses tokenization on both NFC and MST transactions. As of right now Samsung Pay users have the most secure transactions of all the digital wallets because they don't have to worry about whether a retailer has EMV, or NFC. All transactions are tokenized, even on old terminals that don't support EMV or NFC. A simple google search would tell you that. Meanwhile, Apple Pay and Android Pay users have to hope the merchant either supports NFC or EMV, otherwise they have to do a plain old swipe, which exposes your account data to the merchant, not to mention that annoyance of waiting ten seconds for your chip card to authenticate. That does become quite annoying after a bit. Samsung Pay users don't ever have to even bother with inserting chip cards. I know it's easy to hate on Samsung, but they got their implementation of MST right. They have also indicated willingness to license the technology to third parties, so Apple could possibly integrate this technology into Apple Pay at some point. MST is a game changer here in the US and other countries where NFC and EMV adoption is anemic at best, so keep an open mind about it.
In Mexico Most places have mobile terminals, even gas stations, since we still have full service stations. I Believe Credit card terminal is one of the few places USA is way behind many countries. The have about 70% terminals supporting chips. All the way to rural places.
Nothing new here. Samsung's strategy has always been doing some shit for short-term gain, while it might shoot them in the foot long term. This is consistent with that philosophy. For a limited time, they can claim that it is accepted more widely, yet it's using an inferior, less private/safe technology for the long run.
It uses the same security features as its NFC technology (tokenization, virtualization and hardward encryption all built-in). What part about it "unsafe"?
Samsung Pay: We are accepted at stores that have credit card terminals that are unsafe and easily open to fraud.
besides the point I've read many articles that said loop pay is extremely unreliable. To the point its not even worth using.
I dislike Samsung's practices as much as the next guy, but that simply isn't true.
The ORIGINAL implementation for LoopPay allowed cards to be used with any terminal WITHOUT the bank having to change their backend software. In this case the card number was literally broadcast over the air where anyone could see it. This also caused Chip/PIN terminals to give you the "Please insert your Chip card" message, as if you tried to swipe your card (Chip cards can't be swiped in terminals that accept Chips). LoopPay was also updating their system to allow Chip/PIN cards to work with MST by having banks update their software to support it.
Samsung decided to not use this feature (allow any cards to work) and went with the same tokenization system Apple Pay uses. This immediately prevented the use of the majority of cards as now the banks have to update their software to work with Samsung Pay (just like they do with Apple Pay).
Where Samsung is being deceitful is claiming their system works at almost ANY terminal. While this is true, if your bank isn't signed on then your card won't work. In short, Samsung is only telling you HALF the story. IF your bank is signed up THEN Samsung Pay will work on almost any terminal.
Last time I checked Samsung had 30 something banks signed on. Apple Pay is well over 900 (closer to 1,000). Samsung rollout of banks is going slow, and it's a race between how fast they can sign up banks and how fast merchants start updating their terminals. At some point in the future, Samsung Pay will no longer have any advantage because magstripe terminals will disappear. So it's going to be tough for Samsung to convince banks to update their software for a system that's being phased out. Meanwhile, Apple Pay is trying to get banks to update their systems for the newest technology (NFC terminals).
Pretty easy to see who will come out on top in this race.
The advantage of Samsung is it has TWO technologies built in: MST and NFC. You can use either form of payment (one more prevalent now then the other) The MST is a stop gap until full NFC uptake by the general public is at hand. Samsung is using the MST technology to increase its adoption of Samsung Pay over any other payment systems. Once people start using one form of payment system, they tend to stick with that for the long haul. THAT is what Samsung is trying to get at.
Samsung Pay: We are accepted at stores that have credit card terminals that are unsafe and easily open to fraud.
besides the point I've read many articles that said loop pay is extremely unreliable. To the point its not even worth using.
I dislike Samsung's practices as much as the next guy, but that simply isn't true.
The ORIGINAL implementation for LoopPay allowed cards to be used with any terminal WITHOUT the bank having to change their backend software. In this case the card number was literally broadcast over the air where anyone could see it. This also caused Chip/PIN terminals to give you the "Please insert your Chip card" message, as if you tried to swipe your card (Chip cards can't be swiped in terminals that accept Chips). LoopPay was also updating their system to allow Chip/PIN cards to work with MST by having banks update their software to support it.
Samsung decided to not use this feature (allow any cards to work) and went with the same tokenization system Apple Pay uses. This immediately prevented the use of the majority of cards as now the banks have to update their software to work with Samsung Pay (just like they do with Apple Pay).
Where Samsung is being deceitful is claiming their system works at almost ANY terminal. While this is true, if your bank isn't signed on then your card won't work. In short, Samsung is only telling you HALF the story. IF your bank is signed up THEN Samsung Pay will work on almost any terminal.
Last time I checked Samsung had 30 something banks signed on. Apple Pay is well over 900 (closer to 1,000). Samsung rollout of banks is going slow, and it's a race between how fast they can sign up banks and how fast merchants start updating their terminals. At some point in the future, Samsung Pay will no longer have any advantage because magstripe terminals will disappear. So it's going to be tough for Samsung to convince banks to update their software for a system that's being phased out. Meanwhile, Apple Pay is trying to get banks to update their systems for the newest technology (NFC terminals).
Pretty easy to see who will come out on top in this race.
Not only does Samsung Pay use MST, it uses NFC as well and had been long implemented with Google Wallet...
I just went back to an iPhone after having the Note 5. When Samsung Pay worked, it was cool and created a "wow" factor...when it worked. When it didn't, you were that person holding up the line while trying to get new technology to work. Most of the time, I just used my card. I laughed when I saw the Samsung commercial because, "it kinda works everywhere," meant something completely different to me having used it. It kinda worked and it kinda didn't.
I dislike Samsung's practices as much as the next guy, but that simply isn't true.
The ORIGINAL implementation for LoopPay allowed cards to be used with any terminal WITHOUT the bank having to change their backend software. In this case the card number was literally broadcast over the air where anyone could see it. This also caused Chip/PIN terminals to give you the "Please insert your Chip card" message, as if you tried to swipe your card (Chip cards can't be swiped in terminals that accept Chips). LoopPay was also updating their system to allow Chip/PIN cards to work with MST by having banks update their software to support it.
Samsung decided to not use this feature (allow any cards to work) and went with the same tokenization system Apple Pay uses. This immediately prevented the use of the majority of cards as now the banks have to update their software to work with Samsung Pay (just like they do with Apple Pay).
Where Samsung is being deceitful is claiming their system works at almost ANY terminal. While this is true, if your bank isn't signed on then your card won't work. In short, Samsung is only telling you HALF the story. IF your bank is signed up THEN Samsung Pay will work on almost any terminal.
Last time I checked Samsung had 30 something banks signed on. Apple Pay is well over 900 (closer to 1,000). Samsung rollout of banks is going slow, and it's a race between how fast they can sign up banks and how fast merchants start updating their terminals. At some point in the future, Samsung Pay will no longer have any advantage because magstripe terminals will disappear. So it's going to be tough for Samsung to convince banks to update their software for a system that's being phased out. Meanwhile, Apple Pay is trying to get banks to update their systems for the newest technology (NFC terminals).
Pretty easy to see who will come out on top in this race.
Are you sure this is accurate? I work for First Data and we handle the tokenization and encryption for Apple Pay, Samsung Pay and Google Pay. As far as i know the tokenization/encryption is only on Samsung Pay purchases using NFC. Any purchases using MST (magnetic secure transmission) are done exactly like physically credit cards meaning all your information is sent over exactly as it is on the card (no token # instead of read CC #, etc).
Do you really think banks (and networks like First Data) would support a technology that is no more secure than a traditional magnetic stripe credit card?
MST and NFC both use tokenization. (A simple search could tell you that.) It also doesn't use the same card number. My credit card has a chip in it, but when I use Samsung Pay at Target, I'm not told to dip my card... LoopPay would, since it just mimics the exact credit card information. Samsung Pay gives me the same level of security whether it's at an NFC-enabled terminal or at a traditional swipe terminal. Also, I've never had a problem with handing my phone to someone behind the counter. I've done it many times.
And just to clarify, Google's mobile payment service is called Android Pay (previously Google Wallet.)
Samsung Pay: We are accepted at stores that have credit card terminals that are unsafe and easily open to fraud.
besides the point I've read many articles that said loop pay is extremely unreliable. To the point its not even worth using.
I dislike Samsung's practices as much as the next guy, but that simply isn't true.
The ORIGINAL implementation for LoopPay allowed cards to be used with any terminal WITHOUT the bank having to change their backend software. In this case the card number was literally broadcast over the air where anyone could see it. This also caused Chip/PIN terminals to give you the "Please insert your Chip card" message, as if you tried to swipe your card (Chip cards can't be swiped in terminals that accept Chips). LoopPay was also updating their system to allow Chip/PIN cards to work with MST by having banks update their software to support it.
Samsung decided to not use this feature (allow any cards to work) and went with the same tokenization system Apple Pay uses. This immediately prevented the use of the majority of cards as now the banks have to update their software to work with Samsung Pay (just like they do with Apple Pay).
Where Samsung is being deceitful is claiming their system works at almost ANY terminal. While this is true, if your bank isn't signed on then your card won't work. In short, Samsung is only telling you HALF the story. IF your bank is signed up THEN Samsung Pay will work on almost any terminal.
Last time I checked Samsung had 30 something banks signed on. Apple Pay is well over 900 (closer to 1,000). Samsung rollout of banks is going slow, and it's a race between how fast they can sign up banks and how fast merchants start updating their terminals. At some point in the future, Samsung Pay will no longer have any advantage because magstripe terminals will disappear. So it's going to be tough for Samsung to convince banks to update their software for a system that's being phased out. Meanwhile, Apple Pay is trying to get banks to update their systems for the newest technology (NFC terminals).
Pretty easy to see who will come out on top in this race.
"Last time I checked Samsung had 30 something banks signed on. Apple Pay is well over 900 (closer to 1,000)."
Completely wrong. They both have about the same number of banks. Apple Pay only has about 120 banks and Samsung is about the same.
"At some point in the future, Samsung Pay will no longer have any advantage because magstripe terminals will disappear."
Samsung Pay uses BOTH MST AND NFC. Apple Pay uses ONLY NFC. Apple Pay is NOT a technology. It is an app on Apple phones. Android Phones have been using NFC for years before Apple Pay came out. There is no special "Apple Pay" terminals. It is all NFC. If ANY phone supports NFC payments (Samsung has for at least 4 Generations) then you will be able to use it at all the same terminals. If you can use Apple Pay then you can use Samsung Pay. If anything Samsung will last longer because if you have Apple Pay and go somewhere that never upgraded to new NFC terminals, then you are SOL. But Samsung Pay will still work on the mag strip teminals. And yes, it is only IF your bank supports it, but the same goes for Apple Pay, but Apple Pay can only work on NFFC terminals where Samsung Pay can work at ALL terminals. So yeah, your right "Pretty easy to see who will come out on top in this race."
Are you sure this is accurate? I work for First Data and we handle the tokenization and encryption for Apple Pay, Samsung Pay and Google Pay. As far as i know the tokenization/encryption is only on Samsung Pay purchases using NFC. Any purchases using MST (magnetic secure transmission) are done exactly like physically credit cards meaning all your information is sent over exactly as it is on the card (no token # instead of read CC #, etc).
I don't see how MST could simply send over your card data as-is. If that were the case, then Chip/PIN cards wouldn't work with MST as the terminal will just think you swiped a card, and it will ask you to insert your card instead. Samsung Pay users have been posting that their Chip/PIN cards work on older terminals (if their bank has signed up).
Unless Samsung has had banks update TWO separate items (tokenization for NFC and some other as-yet unknown update to allow MST transmission of Chip/PIN cards without them getting rejected).
Regardless, in the best case scenario (MST is just as secure), Samsung is still fighting a losing battle. Their MST is only a short-term solution that only makes sense in a single market (the US).
MST would have been a fantastic idea if it came out 5 years ago.
MST is not insecure because it uses Magnets in the phone and interacts with the magnets on the mag strip reader. These are very very low strength magnets so that the phone has to literally be just as close to the terminal as your card would be (less than 2 inches) in order to transmit and recieve. Unless someone is using a capture device that is between your phone and the terminal, it cannot be intercepted. And I'm pretty sure you wouldn't let someone stick something between your phone and the reader. "Hey buddy.. do you mind if I stick this thing under your phone while you make your payment?"
Comments
I was told that NFC screwed with the chip reader. Probably just a few bucks more for NFC and they were cheapos.
Yes, many Canadian restaurants now have wireless terminals that are brought to the table.. But before that became the norm, slipping your card into the bill-fold and letting the waiter walk away with it was the norm.
Come and think of it, we here in HK have been :
- we ask for the bill
- waiter come to my table with the bill
- we drop him the credit card and he goes to the cashier with the card while we are still chatting in our table
- he comes back with the receipt asking us to sign our signature on it
- he passes back the card with a copy of the receipt (the carbon-copy with our signature) straight away
for God know how many years!!!!
may be it is the norm here and we never question this practice.
Let me try n buy something with my wife's CC receipt and see if it works.....of course I don't know her CC pins...
And the £30 limit is annoying, but that's the banks for you…
(think VHS vs Betamax etc., etc., etc.),
and at the same time, you give Samsung far too little credit for their ability to appeal to that lower "common denominator"
(think...well, everything they make and do).
The first thing I thought the first time I saw an ad for Samsung Pay was, that they'd perfectly gauged
how to make it seem simple and universally appealing to people who, unlike almost all of you,
simply don't grasp the technical reasons why Pay is superior and secure
(think, the vast majority of humans with cards).
Apple hasn't done that good a job explaining that to suburbia, however well you more sophisticated
urbanites may think it's penetrating - merchants don't get it, customers don't get it - and there is fertile ground
for even Samsung to succeed, as they often do, by appealing to a larger percentage of "dimwits" (too harsh?).
They'll only do better if within the next year, NFC terminals, despite the mandate, don't get more plentiful, and they take care of the whole bank side.
At most, they'd have a short term perception win, except the people that buy Samsungs, use less of every function than the Iphone buyers, so it only truly applies to a very small number of people.
One of the reason people don't use either system, Apple or Samsung, is that it's not yet seen as something that much better than taking the cards out.
In parts because of cluelessness on the merchant side making the whole transactions more obtuse than they need to be,
That's a perception problem for the tech in general.
As store fidelity cards get included in the transaction (in your virtual wallet), which I believe Apple will have the advantage I believe.
MST and NFC both use tokenization. (A simple search could tell you that.) It also doesn't use the same card number. My credit card has a chip in it, but when I use Samsung Pay at Target, I'm not told to dip my card... LoopPay would, since it just mimics the exact credit card information. Samsung Pay gives me the same level of security whether it's at an NFC-enabled terminal or at a traditional swipe terminal. Also, I've never had a problem with handing my phone to someone behind the counter. I've done it many times.
And just to clarify, Google's mobile payment service is called Android Pay (previously Google Wallet.)
"Last time I checked Samsung had 30 something banks signed on. Apple Pay is well over 900 (closer to 1,000)."
Completely wrong. They both have about the same number of banks. Apple Pay only has about 120 banks and Samsung is about the same.
http://www.igeeksblog.com/list-of-banks-and-credit-cards-that-support-apple-pay/
http://www.samsung.com/us/support/answer/ANS00043884/997408820/Y/
Don't drink the Koolaid.
"At some point in the future, Samsung Pay will no longer have any advantage because magstripe terminals will disappear."
Samsung Pay uses BOTH MST AND NFC. Apple Pay uses ONLY NFC. Apple Pay is NOT a technology. It is an app on Apple phones. Android Phones have been using NFC for years before Apple Pay came out. There is no special "Apple Pay" terminals. It is all NFC. If ANY phone supports NFC payments (Samsung has for at least 4 Generations) then you will be able to use it at all the same terminals. If you can use Apple Pay then you can use Samsung Pay. If anything Samsung will last longer because if you have Apple Pay and go somewhere that never upgraded to new NFC terminals, then you are SOL. But Samsung Pay will still work on the mag strip teminals. And yes, it is only IF your bank supports it, but the same goes for Apple Pay, but Apple Pay can only work on NFFC terminals where Samsung Pay can work at ALL terminals. So yeah, your right "Pretty easy to see who will come out on top in this race."