Apple, other tech companies decry North Carolina anti-LGBT law

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  • Reply 41 of 131
    These arguments in favor of this discrimination law simply don't hold up to more than superficial logical scrutiny.

    Basically what I'm hearing is that this is a great idea because it prevents a heterosexual biological male from lying and saying he is transgender and identifies as a women so as to prey on women.

    Okay, but if that's what you're worried about, what's to stop that same man from walking into the women's restroom, flip the situation around, and say that he was born a biological women but transitioned to a man. Because he was born a women, regardless of the transition, he would use the women's restroom in this system. Because there are genuine transgender people who are indistinguishable from the opposite sex, so you really don't know.  And that's not dealing with the issue of a homosexual pedophiles.

    So unless you're planning on having an inspector at the door verififying genitalia or a third restroom for all transgender people, this law achieves NOTHING constructive. It just opens the door for honest, hard working, tax paying citizens to be discriminated against. 

    In fact here is a radical idea, make all bathrooms unisex, just all stalls with doors, you do your business in private and surely we can wash our hands with the opposite sex. Like all responsible adults you are aware of your surroundings and you look out for people abusing the system, which you then report to the proper authorities. Given that 99% of people are not pedophiles there would be more eyes on the lookout with unisex bathrooms. And while we're at it, teach children that the human body is a normal beautiful thing, and to respect other people and their bodies.  

    No laws required just respect and common sense.
    Except it isn't a discrimination law. 

    Its a PRESERVATION law. 

    The wording gets changed by those who want to crush it and eome people buy it. 

    The he only discrimination is against people like me who would like to avoid the obvious pitfalls of such a foolish line of thinking to allow what amounts to unisex bathrooms. 

    Common sense people. 


    Splitting hairs about wording notwithstanding. It's irrelevant to the fact that without creating some identification system to prove your gender, or creating a third transgender bathroom. This law achieves NOTHING. 

    Inmocent until proven guilty, a philosophy we have as a nation that it is better that 10 criminals walk free rather than 1 innocent man be incarcerated. This is just making honest, hard working, tax paying transgender individuals jump through hoops and be uncomfortable on the off chance that some pedophile wants to dress up in drag and abuse the system. Just keep your eyes open, like you should be in any case, but leave people be. As long as someone isn't hurting you or anyone else, physically, mentally, or via discrimination; just let them live their life. 
    aaronjargonaut
  • Reply 42 of 131
    designr said:
    As long as someone isn't hurting you or anyone else, physically, mentally, or via discrimination; just let them live their life. 
    Now this (hurting someone mentally) is where things get pretty squishy and gray and tricky pretty quickly isn't it.
    Sure, but that's not all that relevant to the discussion. Unless someone is seriously trying to argue that simply seeing a honest transgender person in their bathroom is hurting their sensibilities. Maybe I should've left mentally out, people are certainly over sensitive in that area these days. Just be nice to people and leave them be, it's not that gray or hard, or at least is shouldn't be...
    argonaut
  • Reply 43 of 131
    The demand to be accepted VS The right to reject. Seems counterproductive. 
    tallest skil
  • Reply 44 of 131
    genovelle said:
    What's to stop a straight freak from claiming to identify with being a woman to gain access to the bathroom. It's easy to police. If someone goes into the women's bathroom and can pee standing up its a man. The women or little girls that are in a compromised situation can call the police. If anyone can just claim to identify as a woman and gain access is a problem. 
    So a Man transitioning into a Woman who may well have breasts but still have male plumbing and be living as a woman would have to use the Mens Toilet?
    The Rednecks/Neanderthals in NC would have a field day beating the hell out of them. They'd think that it was a woman than go apeshit when they find what's between their legs.

    What then eh?

    Two sides to every argument.

  • Reply 45 of 131
    foggyhillfoggyhill Posts: 4,767member
    I'm a biological male who doesn't want biological females in the Men's Restroom when I'm using it.  Don't my feelings count for something, too?  

    Restrooms are assigned by sex, not by gender.  Gender is open to cultural interpretation, but biological sex is not.  There are serious risks to creating open bathrooms, and hurt feelings isn't one of them.  

    Before the most tolerant and open minded people on these boards close their minds and start calling me hateful and bigoted, please note that I am all for equality.  But, we must find a better solution than open restrooms.  
    I think you would be surprised to see what transgender people look like. There are men who were female on the birth certificate. They have beards. Some with rather buff bodies. And you want them in the women's room. There are women who were men on their birth certificate with breasts, and again, rather attractive bodies that you would not imagine were not biologically female. Already the major stadiums in North Carolina have policies that allow transgender people to use the bathrooms that they identify with and this law will do nothing to change that. I don't know you enough to have an opinion about your feelings, but if you are truly interested in this I encourage you to do some research. I think you will be surprised how logical the Charlotte ordinance was and how misguided the state is.
    The funny thing is that gay men and lesbian women use men's and women's restroom and changing room and showers, wouldn't that be worrisome too for those poor people worried about their children (sic). You know all those lustful women and men going after their children (sic); because we all know gays and lesbians are evildoers  (tm) and have an "agenda" to corrupt the world (yes, I let the cat out of the bag...)
    Wish It was sarcasm, but I'm sure that has gone through their minds and they wish they could actually enforced this.
    Will they next advocate for gay and lesbian restroom and showers?

    And yes, most trans I know, and I know quite a few (because I have one in my immediate family) would look really silly going into their birth sex restroom, women would be more terrified of them... Than the trans women they're so afraid of (none of them, trans men or women are dangerous of course, it's just misguided perception of the few).

    Tell me if the women in Sense 8 (Nomi) would be terrorizing any women if she came into a restroom; could she really be forced to go into a male restroom?
    How on earth would they even enforce that? Drop pants at door?

    What about a very butch lesbian? She goes in which restroom? Can someone challenge her presence in the women's restroom, call the cops to arrest her.
    Bet she makes both some men and women uncomfortable, just like most non gender conforming people.

    I also find it funny that people think that a little sign on a restroom would actually stop real pervert or a sex fiends from doing his deed and he'd have to disguise himself to get in... That's a hoot.

    He'd wait for things to be real slow, get in as male (lock a stall), put up a wireless camera up in 2 seconds, wait for the right time, and go out; record stuff from then on. That's actually been done.

    Also, these people act like sexual assault, harassment, being a peeping tom and a lot of other things are not already crimes; they are and they already cover the fantasy cases they created really well.
    edited March 2016 argonautbancho
  • Reply 46 of 131
    foggyhillfoggyhill Posts: 4,767member
    gadgetdon said:
    genovelle said:
    What's to stop a straight freak from claiming to identify with being a woman to gain access to the bathroom. It's easy to police. If someone goes into the women's bathroom and can pee standing up its a man. The women or little girls that are in a compromised situation can call the police. If anyone can just claim to identify as a woman and gain access is a problem. 
    How about a simpler solution. If you look like a women, dress like a woman, think you're a woman, you go into the women's bathroom. If someone is abusing it then as you say, call the police. Now in North Carolina, if you're a predator, you don't even have to dress up like a woman to go into the women's bathroom, just walk in and if stopped say "I'm a transgender male, it's OK"

    I get it. You don't think this is real, that transgender people are just those who want to dress up like the other sex. You're wrong.
    YEah, transgender male look often more male (except for height), than the average guy, because they often over compensate (I know many who are in heavy into body building), especially in their early transition (like many trans women also do in early transition, dressing like girly girls from the 1950s). I will be a hoot to see those people go in the female restrooms and show how idiotic this whole thing is. I think one actually did it on the internet and posted a picture of himself in the women's restroom with his girlfriend, was quite funny actually to see this ripped stubly guy there :-).

    Later, when things have settled down, both sides tend to be less stereotypical "male" and "female" in their presentation; like I said, know quite a few, fantastic self deprecating bunch on both sides.
    edited March 2016
  • Reply 47 of 131
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 13,377member
    Dai said:
    So are Apple and other companies saying that only their opinion matters? Are they better than the voters of North Carolina that wanted this? I thought the left didn't like big business and money in politics?
    Did the voters of North Carolina want this? A rushed bill discussed in virtual secret doesn't seem like a democratic outcome. I'll stand corrected f the members of the NC legislature stood on a ticket of undoing anti-discriminatory legislation, but I doubt that's what happened. What "the voters" want is seldom what the people they vote for actually do, and what the elected do is seldom what voters want.
    You're right.  Obamacare being the perfect example of your last sentence. 

    With regard to this situation...this state legislation is in response to an ordinance passed in the city of Charlotte that was extremely controversial.  The state passed its measure to strike the local measure down.  

    Actually the state could be considered to be acting responsibly here. What Charlotte proposed is extremely difficult to manage and a boon to perverts that want the freedom to spy on woman when they need a little privacy. In fact there are likely to be more perverts in the community than there are people identifying as the opposite sex. In a nut shell such legislation is dangerous because it enables people that have intentions different than the LGBT community members. There is a bigger picture here that many are missing.
    hampy
  • Reply 48 of 131
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 13,377member
    I'm a biological male who doesn't want biological females in the Men's Restroom when I'm using it.  Don't my feelings count for something, too?  

    Restrooms are assigned by sex, not by gender.  Gender is open to cultural interpretation, but biological sex is not.  There are serious risks to creating open bathrooms, and hurt feelings isn't one of them.  

    Before the most tolerant and open minded people on these boards close their minds and start calling me hateful and bigoted, please note that I am all for equality.  But, we must find a better solution than open restrooms.  
    Actually as a male you are least likely to have a problem with such legislation.    It is the female population that would be left exposed to the predators out there.   

    Of of course you will be called bigoted for having real concern about such non sense.    This is a perfect example of a state reacting properly to really stupid local laws.    
    hampyajiitai
  • Reply 49 of 131
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 13,377member
    bsimpsen said:
    I'm a biological male who doesn't want biological females in the Men's Restroom when I'm using it.  
    Gender is open to cultural interpretation, but biological sex is not.
    I'm afraid you're mistaken. Nature isn't as black and white as your thinking. Although the majority of humans fall into fairly clean male and female bins, not all do.

    Read this...
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_humans

    And in particular, this...
    "Therefore, direct sex differences are usually binary in expression (although the deviations in complex biological processes produce a menagerie of exceptions)."

    I'm not sure menagerie is the best choice of word there, but it'll have to do. How do you propose society respect the members of that menagerie?
    I suspect that you don't realize this yet but you highlight why NC did e right thing. I don't think anybody dismisses that there are people that don't fit the normal spectrum. The problem isn't this small minority of people it is rather the people that would exploit such a law to their perverted advantage. It is very likely that the sex most opposed to this law is the female side because they already have people intruding on their privacy in the bathroom. A bit of surfing the darker side of the net will prove this out. The problem here isn't the LGBT community but rather those outside this community that would take advantage of the law. I really suspect that the people opposed to NC here don't really understand the bigger issues at play here.
  • Reply 50 of 131
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 13,377member
    genovelle said:
    I'm a biological male who doesn't want biological females in the Men's Restroom when I'm using it.  Don't my feelings count for something, too?  

    Restrooms are assigned by sex, not by gender.  Gender is open to cultural interpretation, but biological sex is not.  There are serious risks to creating open bathrooms, and hurt feelings isn't one of them.  

    Before the most tolerant and open minded people on these boards close their minds and start calling me hateful and bigoted, please note that I am all for equality.  But, we must find a better solution than open restrooms.  
    I think you would be surprised to see what transgender people look like. There are men who were female on the birth certificate. They have beards. Some with rather buff bodies. And you want them in the women's room. There are women who were men on their birth certificate with breasts, and again, rather attractive bodies that you would not imagine were not biologically female. Already the major stadiums in North Carolina have policies that allow transgender people to use the bathrooms that they identify with and this law will do nothing to change that. I don't know you enough to have an opinion about your feelings, but if you are truly interested in this I encourage you to do some research. I think you will be surprised how logical the Charlotte ordinance was and how misguided the state is.
    What's to stop a straight freak from claiming to identify with being a woman to gain access to the bathroom. It's easy to police. If someone goes into the women's bathroom and can pee standing up its a man. The women or little girls that are in a compromised situation can call the police. If anyone can just claim to identify as a woman and gain access is a problem. 
    This in a nut shell is the problem, if physical sex isn't a barrier to entry then anybody can access the woman's bathroom. I specifically say woman's here because it really seems to be a far bigger concern for woman than men.
    hampyajiitai
  • Reply 51 of 131
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 13,377member
    genovelle said:
    I'm a biological male who doesn't want biological females in the Men's Restroom when I'm using it.  Don't my feelings count for something, too?  

    Restrooms are assigned by sex, not by gender.  Gender is open to cultural interpretation, but biological sex is not.  There are serious risks to creating open bathrooms, and hurt feelings isn't one of them.  

    Before the most tolerant and open minded people on these boards close their minds and start calling me hateful and bigoted, please note that I am all for equality.  But, we must find a better solution than open restrooms.  
    I guess the person who disliked your post thinks it's ok for a 13 year old girl to have to use the mall restroom with a man who claims he identifies as a woman. This will come to a grinding halt when they realize this was the dumbest idea ever. 
    It is rather the problem of perverts and predators using the same bathroom. By the way malls already have an issue with these sorts preying upon young people. As noted this is the dumbest idea ever as it just makes it far easier for the deviants to exploit people and frankly is of no real benefit to the LGBT community.
    hampy
  • Reply 52 of 131
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 13,377member
    gadgetdon said:
    I'm a biological male who doesn't want biological females in the Men's Restroom when I'm using it.  Don't my feelings count for something, too?  

    Restrooms are assigned by sex, not by gender.  Gender is open to cultural interpretation, but biological sex is not.  There are serious risks to creating open bathrooms, and hurt feelings isn't one of them.  

    Before the most tolerant and open minded people on these boards close their minds and start calling me hateful and bigoted, please note that I am all for equality.  But, we must find a better solution than open restrooms.  
    They aren't "open bathrooms". So there's this big guy, husky, lumberjack style shirt and jeans. And he walks into the ladies restroom because he's biologically female. You think either he or the ladies in the restroom will be comfortable? You think there won't be those saying "Hey, you can't go in there". Similarly, good looking woman, nicely built, medium length skirt, shirt may show a little cleavage. Since she's still biologically male, she has to walk into the men's room. And you consider that progress. Riiight. And Apple has an interest because they employ people in North Carolina, some almost certainly gay, quite possibly some transgender. They'd prefer their employees not be harassed or even potentially assaulted when they go to the bathroom, yes, even the LGBT ones.
    The problem is that this is a small minority of people. The reality is there is a far larger number of people that would use this as an oportunity to easily prey on woman.
    hampy
  • Reply 53 of 131
    crowleycrowley Posts: 10,453member
    dipdog3 said:
    Rename bathrooms to Penis & Non-Penis. Whatever you got, that's where you go. Problem solved!
    There's a whole lot of gray area there, friend. If the solution sounds simple its probably wrong.
    Ditto this. Any appeals to "common sense" are anything but. There are so many difficulties here that there is no simple or perfect solution.
  • Reply 54 of 131
    foggyhillfoggyhill Posts: 4,767member
    wizard69 said:
    gadgetdon said:
    They aren't "open bathrooms". So there's this big guy, husky, lumberjack style shirt and jeans. And he walks into the ladies restroom because he's biologically female. You think either he or the ladies in the restroom will be comfortable? You think there won't be those saying "Hey, you can't go in there". Similarly, good looking woman, nicely built, medium length skirt, shirt may show a little cleavage. Since she's still biologically male, she has to walk into the men's room. And you consider that progress. Riiight. And Apple has an interest because they employ people in North Carolina, some almost certainly gay, quite possibly some transgender. They'd prefer their employees not be harassed or even potentially assaulted when they go to the bathroom, yes, even the LGBT ones.
    The problem is that this is a small minority of people. The reality is there is a far larger number of people that would use this as an oportunity to easily prey on woman.
    I can;t believe the shit you crapped out; simply beyond belief.

    I just told you how insane this those argument is yet you bypassed my point and went to talking point. Not surprising considering your other posts.
    wizard69 said:
    You're right.  Obamacare being the perfect example of your last sentence. 

    With regard to this situation...this state legislation is in response to an ordinance passed in the city of Charlotte that was extremely controversial.  The state passed its measure to strike the local measure down.  

    Actually the state could be considered to be acting responsibly here. What Charlotte proposed is extremely difficult to manage and a boon to perverts that want the freedom to spy on woman when they need a little privacy. In fact there are likely to be more perverts in the community than there are people identifying as the opposite sex. In a nut shell such legislation is dangerous because it enables people that have intentions different than the LGBT community members. There is a bigger picture here that many are missing.
    What the frack are you even talking about. Do you even read what the hell you write.

    Perverts can use this dumbass state law to enter a women's washroom  because those legislators have no clue what a trans men or women look like seemingly, they're that dumb.

    You really have no clue what your talking about.

    edited March 2016 tallest skil
  • Reply 55 of 131
    foggyhillfoggyhill Posts: 4,767member
    wizard69 said:
    gadgetdon said:
    They aren't "open bathrooms". So there's this big guy, husky, lumberjack style shirt and jeans. And he walks into the ladies restroom because he's biologically female. You think either he or the ladies in the restroom will be comfortable? You think there won't be those saying "Hey, you can't go in there". Similarly, good looking woman, nicely built, medium length skirt, shirt may show a little cleavage. Since she's still biologically male, she has to walk into the men's room. And you consider that progress. Riiight. And Apple has an interest because they employ people in North Carolina, some almost certainly gay, quite possibly some transgender. They'd prefer their employees not be harassed or even potentially assaulted when they go to the bathroom, yes, even the LGBT ones.
    The problem is that this is a small minority of people. The reality is there is a far larger number of people that would use this as an oportunity to easily prey on woman.
    All I hear "talking point" blah blah blah blah blah.
  • Reply 56 of 131
    Unforced error by Apple. They chose the state based on the conservative "pro business" sweeteners, and now they're stuck with the bad aftertaste of civil rights abuse and economic oppression. Which one will they value more going forward?
  • Reply 57 of 131
    crowleycrowley Posts: 10,453member
    foggyhill said:
    wizard69 said:
    The problem is that this is a small minority of people. The reality is there is a far larger number of people that would use this as an oportunity to easily prey on woman.
    I can;t believe the shit you crapped out; simply beyond belief.

    I just told you how insane this those argument is yet you bypassed my point and went to talking point. Not surprising considering your other posts.
    What the frack are you even talking about. Do you even read what the hell you write.

    Perverts can use this dumbass state law to enter a women's washroom  because those legislators have no clue what a trans men or women look like seemingly, they're that dumb.

    You really have no clue what your talking about.

    Do you know what a trans man or woman looks like? How are "they" "dumb"?
    singularityhampy
  • Reply 58 of 131
    mattinozmattinoz Posts: 2,280member
    The preservation of privacy and morals are paramount here. 

    Mono woman or young girl should ever have to see a mans penis in a ladies restroom. EVER. 

    and no man should have to deal with the flip side. 

    Let's get real here. 

    No matter what you "identify" as, male and female are as physically descriptive as can be. Heck we even have male and female connectors in engineering. 

    So identify to hear hearts content. But go to the male restroom if you are male. 

    Simple. 

    Mono father should have to worry about some dude who thinks he's a girl taking a leak next to his daughter or wife. 

    Enough is snough. And shame on Apple and others for getting involved. 

    Tim wants to be with other dudes. Ok. That's his prerogative. But I bet he uses the right bathroom for crying out loud. 
    Female toilets only have cubicals for the business at hand. So "next to" involves at least an inch of some sort of material and two locked cubical doors or the washing of hands after becoming full clothed again. 

    nolamacguy
  • Reply 59 of 131
    MacProMacPro Posts: 19,697member
    So are Apple and other companies saying that only their opinion matters? Are they better than the voters of North Carolina that wanted this? I thought the left didn't like big business and money in politics?
    It's a shame states can't pass legislation in the middle of the night that cuts the rights of bigots and extremists (of all persuasions) but I guess that wouldn't be fair. ;)
    singularityargonaut
  • Reply 60 of 131
    singularitysingularity Posts: 1,328member
    Seems appropriate 

    argonautnolamacguy
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