This will go to appeal and be stuck for at least 3 years. Then the US government will pass a law to bring back the cash to the USA. There will be no cash in the EU for them to collect.
Eventually they will settle for about $200 million.
Or nothing at all. The US government is taking this issue seriously with the EU, and this could end up becoming a major Trans-Atlantic spat. Lots of US companies are involved, not just Apple. This is far, far bigger than just one company.
Correct. This is more like sour grapes between the EU and Ireland because Ireland has become an advantageous business nexus for international companies.
No sir. Luxembourg and Netherlands already got the same treatment from the EU Commission regarding "special tax arrangements" with big multinationals, tho not nearly as big as Apple. Still to come are investigations involving Estonia and Poland over the same type of "special tax" deals. http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-15-5140_en.htm
I am sorry, but I am missing something basic in the link you cited: I don't see any examples of an EU member country actually being sanctioned. Has the happened? If so, when? By whom?(The article talks about referring matters to the EU Court of Justice, that's all). Do they have the power to enforce the ruling? If a country says 'no,' what happens?
All these Americans on this forum thinking, writing, screw EU, screw rules, appeals, just sit it out, the US govt will tackle this, ...
blah.blah.blah
remember the MDD-Boeing merger? Remember how vocal the US were against EU anti-trust scrutiny? Did it help? No!
The US have 0 authority in the EU. Planning on not doing business in the EU then (a retarted person's retaliation plan)? Then don't!
You fail to see the big picture here. The U.S. does have the upper hand. If an unfavorable ruling is handed down. Ireland will be appealing the decision. That could take at least 3 years. In the meantime, if the U.S. passes repatriation tax reform next year, then all of Apple's money will be out of reach of the EU.
How's that? You honestly thing Apple is "repatriating" a couple hundred $B to the US even if the corporate rate here was cut in half? Won't happen.
Yes with a one-time repatriation holiday. Repatriation reform has been talked about for years, but I think it's finally going to be happening soon. The U.S. government won't continue to sit around watching other countries make claims on offshore cash of American companies. Cash that could have been taxed if the rates weren't so high. The last repatriation holiday taxed foreign profits at 5.25%.
This will go to appeal and be stuck for at least 3 years. Then the US government will pass a law to bring back the cash to the USA. There will be no cash in the EU for them to collect.
Eventually they will settle for about $200 million.
Or nothing at all. The US government is taking this issue seriously with the EU, and this could end up becoming a major Trans-Atlantic spat. Lots of US companies are involved, not just Apple. This is far, far bigger than just one company.
Correct. This is more like sour grapes between the EU and Ireland because Ireland has become an advantageous business nexus for international companies.
No sir. Luxembourg and Netherlands already got the same treatment from the EU Commission regarding "special tax arrangements" with big multinationals, tho not nearly as big as Apple. Still to come are investigations involving Estonia and Poland over the same type of "special tax" deals. http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-15-5140_en.htm
I am sorry, but I am missing something basic in the link you cited: I don't see any examples of an EU member country actually being sanctioned. Has the happened? If so, when? By whom?(The article talks about referring matters to the EU Court of Justice, that's all). Do they have the power to enforce the ruling? If a country says 'no,' what happens?
Planning on not doing business in the EU then (a retarted person's retaliation plan)? Then don't!
That is definitely an option that Apple should consider, when it comes to certain troublesome govts around the world, be it China, or the EU or whoever. There should always be a back up plan, and if worst comes to worst, then Apple need not sell in certain countries. Let them do without Apple products. Give them Android, see if I care.
It makes zero difference to me if Apple has 200 Billion in cash or 300 or more. Apple doesn't need to sell to every person on the globe or to every country in the world.
So you want Apple to sacrifice ~20% of its profit? If after all the appeals Apple will pay if they have to because they would have to be totally insane to give up the EU as a market.
Sure, why not, if it came to that.
Look at the stock price. All of Apple's cash and massive, record setting income isn't doing the stock much good.
All these Americans on this forum thinking, writing, screw EU, screw rules, appeals, just sit it out, the US govt will tackle this, ...
blah.blah.blah
remember the MDD-Boeing merger? Remember how vocal the US were against EU anti-trust scrutiny? Did it help? No!
The US have 0 authority in the EU. Planning on not doing business in the EU then (a retarted person's retaliation plan)? Then don't!
I remember they did indeed merge. Boeing made some concessions to appease the EC just as they had to do with the FTC. Had they not they also had the rights to ignore the EC decision or appeal to the WTO where Boeing also had a good chance of winning. Had the EC/EU tried to penalize Boeing for doing business in the EU post merger it would have triggered an unimaginable shit storm and probably resulted in not a single Airbus aircraft flying over North America today.
Other companies could have used the same 'tax break' as Apple. And many US companies did.
Using a seperate Irish company (the Double Irish) and using transfer pricing would give you a very low tax rate. THIS WAS AVAILABLE TO ALL COMPANIES IN IRELAND. PERIOD. THUS THERE WAS NO STATE AID SINCE IT WAS AVAILABLE TO ALL.
Now again show me what tax law Apple broke.
The fact that you still have not got a simple, clear response tells you all you need to know. There are a not of cheap name-callers among the pro-EU types here (and I've flagged one of them), but not a lot of honest responses to an obvious question.
The, fact that has been explained a lot of time tells all we need to know., There are a lot of people here that doesn't know anything and doesn't want to know/ Do you know an honest and clear answer?
A lot of anti-EU nonsense from a lot of people here who clearly don't have a clue what the EU is. Ireland benefits greatly from membership. It's not a perfect union but it's been, on the whole, a hugely positive influence across Europe. Any talk of it crumbling shows total ignorance.
The EU has laws designed to ensure member nations do not unfairly single out a particular company for special tax incentives. The EU has no law against tax incentives – just anti-competitive arrangements. They have deemed Apple's arrangement in Ireland anti-competition.
Did The Netherlands appeal? And, did such clawback actually happen?
Anant, the fact that they would even consider an appeal is evidence is has enforcement power behind it, correct? Otherwise it would be "we disagree and choose to ignore it". But if you cannot find more about it yourself I'll take a look and see what the current status is.
Let's see if the suits in Brussels are ready to play hardball. We sure are! Bring it on! We'll crush them all, like the little men that they are.
You don't need billions of dollars in sales? Oh really?
What is this pathetic macho stance about? The EU economy is the same size as the US economy and any 'playing hardball' will hurt everyone. Just grow up. This case is directed at Ireland not Apple but if it means they have been under paying their taxes so be it. Why should they pay less than other companies? I'm sick of giant corporations using their 'smart' accountants to hide their profits offshore and get favourable terms from governments. Meanwhile smaller businesses have to pay the full amount - it's disgusting
It's perfectly reasonable for the EU to rule, "You can't do this any more".
It's mostly reasonable for the EU to rule "You can't do this any more and you owe back taxes to the time we started our investigation and said the preliminary results were that it wasn't going to be allowed."
It's completely unreasonable for the EU to rule "You can't do this any more and you have to undo it through all time including the times when there were no objections"
Did The Netherlands appeal? And, did such clawback actually happen?
Anant, the fact that they would even consider an appeal is evidence is has enforcement power behind it, correct? Otherwise it would be "we disagree and choose to ignore it". But if you cannot find more about it yourself I'll take a look and see what the current status is.
I've read (or tried to read) too many links links today that have led nowhere. So I am going to pass.
But basically, you're saying that no one has really been actually sanctioned yet. And no fine has been paid yet. This is not even accounting for the fact that US government hasn't got into the game yet.
Much as as people here might hyperventilate, curse, or yell otherwise, @sog35 is basically right. Nothing much will come of it anytime soon. If it does, it'll be some wrist-slap. We'll have to wait and see, won't we?
Did The Netherlands appeal? And, did such clawback actually happen?
Anant, the fact that they would even consider an appeal is evidence is has enforcement power behind it, correct? Otherwise it would be "we disagree and choose to ignore it". But if you cannot find more about it yourself I'll take a look and see what the current status is.
I've read (or tried to read) too many links links today that have led nowhere. So I am going to pass.
But basically, you're saying that no one has really been actually sanctioned yet. And no fine has been paid yet.
I don't think mine ever, or at least rarely, lead nowhere. No country rec'ed fines anyway. They were just ordered to recover the taxes. Those countries also realize they are bound to follow the judgements, which is why the Netherlands is appealing, tho Luxembourg also said at the time they too would likely be.
Apple should put some money into funding a revolution and the collapse of the EU. Call it an investment for the future. One that will save them lots of money.
It is in Apple's best interest that the EU dies a quick death.
Did The Netherlands appeal? And, did such clawback actually happen?
Anant, the fact that they would even consider an appeal is evidence is has enforcement power behind it, correct? Otherwise it would be "we disagree and choose to ignore it". But if you cannot find more about it yourself I'll take a look and see what the current status is.
I've read (or tried to read) too many links links today that have led nowhere. So I am going to pass.
But basically, you're saying that no one has really been actually sanctioned yet. And no fine has been paid yet.
I don't think mine ever, or at least rarely, lead nowhere. No country rec'ed fines anyway. They were just ordered to recover the taxes. Those countries also realize they are bound to follow the judgements, which is why the Netherlands is appealing, tho Luxembourg also said at the time they too would likely be.
Ok, "no recovered taxes" yet. Tell me otherwise. Or else, move on, GG.
In other news, Airbus has been instructed to demand the return of all planes sold to date to France as they were illegally subsidized by England, France and Germany.
Perhaps this is yet another good reason (that of national sovereignty) to leave the EU! If this realstionship and deal is good enough for Ireland the Apple then that should be the end of the matter. The EU does not provide Ireland with 6,000 jobs like Apple does, so if I were Ireland I'd simply refuse to abide by their decision! What the hell can they do? Expel Ireland from the EU? That would be a blessing and a death warrant to the lazy bureaucrats in the EU in Brussels.
This is not about sovereignty - like any member of the EU Ireland is obliged to play by the rules. They say that you cannot give a special deal to one organisation and not to others. The general tax rate of about 12 or so percent is already pretty low - tell me how much they would have to pay in the US?
Apple with its highly paid lawyers must have known from the very beginning that they were breaking EU rules. Now they have to pay back the illegal tax subsidies
Oh please, what absolute crap! Let's talk about Airbus and all the government financial support, tax breaks and financing subsidies to purchasers. What a bunch of hypocrites!
It's perfectly reasonable for the EU to rule, "You can't do this any more".
It's mostly reasonable for the EU to rule "You can't do this any more and you owe back taxes to the time we started our investigation and said the preliminary results were that it wasn't going to be allowed."
It's completely unreasonable for the EU to rule "You can't do this any more and you have to undo it through all time including the times when there were no objections"
Why? When you get audited by the IRS and are found to be noncompliant do they only insist that you backpay to the start of the audit?
Perhaps this is yet another good reason (that of national sovereignty) to leave the EU! If this realstionship and deal is good enough for Ireland the Apple then that should be the end of the matter. The EU does not provide Ireland with 6,000 jobs like Apple does, so if I were Ireland I'd simply refuse to abide by their decision! What the hell can they do? Expel Ireland from the EU? That would be a blessing and a death warrant to the lazy bureaucrats in the EU in Brussels.
The EU will probably seek revenge and punitive measures against anybody who dares disobey them.
Any country that is a part of the EU are basically slaves to the disgusting elite, and they should do what they're told, or else.
The good news is that the EU has already begun to crumble. I don't give it that many more years, before they're dead 100%. That is so wonderful and long overdue.
Not to mention that "the disgusting elite" are aliens in disguise trying to take over the whole planet and enslave humans.. US beware, you're next (or were you first?)... hahaha!!!
Lets take EU down so that each nation can get back to their neat ancestral occupations like invading their neighbors and such.. Because for a world company like Apple (sitting on $215 billion in cash - how?), paying taxes over 2% would be a total disgrace..
So where in the EU should they go? They still need an eu Base and would still have to pay the tax.
Good point! I suppose that they do need a EU base.
In that case, Apple should raise the price of all products offered in the EU zone, to compensate for the illegal tax rape and to offset any loss of profits and income, because of the mob shake down.
Look at it this way, the purchase price for the end-user is the same less taxes, so that has no bearing on anything. Corporation tax is a tax on the overall profits, it's already morally questionable lumping all sales from across Europe to one country as every other country's government loses out. Imagine if Apple lumped all of America (continent) together and re-jigged it's finances so it only paid the majority of tax to e.g. Brazil, you can bet the USA government would not be too happy and you US citizens would be up in arms.
What Ireland did was illegal, Apple played it by the book and it's not their fault but regardless of blame, they paid less tax than they legally should have - they now have to pay that back. Just like anyone of us who underpays tax (knowingly or not) or gets too much benefit payment incorrectly for example - it can and must be rectified retrospectively.
Comments
http://mnetax.com/eu-commission-publishes-decision-concluding-fiats-luxembourg-transfer-pricing-ruling-state-aid-15593
...and more here
http://www.euractiv.com/section/innovation-industry/news/brussels-orders-eu-countries-to-claw-back-illegal-tax-rulings/
Look at the stock price. All of Apple's cash and massive, record setting income isn't doing the stock much good.
What do I care if they made 20% less?
Quality over quantity, in my opinion.
Did The Netherlands appeal? And, did such clawback actually happen?
EDIT: Here you go sir.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-01-15/netherlands-fights-eu-tax-order-on-starbucks-for-more-clarity
What is this pathetic macho stance about? The EU economy is the same size as the US economy and any 'playing hardball' will hurt everyone. Just grow up.
This case is directed at Ireland not Apple but if it means they have been under paying their taxes so be it. Why should they pay less than other companies? I'm sick of giant corporations using their 'smart' accountants to hide their profits offshore and get favourable terms from governments. Meanwhile smaller businesses have to pay the full amount - it's disgusting
It's mostly reasonable for the EU to rule "You can't do this any more and you owe back taxes to the time we started our investigation and said the preliminary results were that it wasn't going to be allowed."
It's completely unreasonable for the EU to rule "You can't do this any more and you have to undo it through all time including the times when there were no objections"
But basically, you're saying that no one has really been actually sanctioned yet. And no fine has been paid yet. This is not even accounting for the fact that US government hasn't got into the game yet.
Much as as people here might hyperventilate, curse, or yell otherwise, @sog35 is basically right. Nothing much will come of it anytime soon. If it does, it'll be some wrist-slap. We'll have to wait and see, won't we?
No country rec'ed fines anyway. They were just ordered to recover the taxes. Those countries also realize they are bound to follow the judgements, which is why the Netherlands is appealing, tho Luxembourg also said at the time they too would likely be.