When I watched the presentation and the woman from Adobe was presenting what Photoshop would be able to do, I sensed that she really felt that the touch bar is going to take that product to a whole new level. Somehow I think it will take many products to whole new levels of usability.
The woman from Adobe was the high point of the whole show.
Apple hasn't always been first to market with any technology or product line, that is not to say they don't research, test and refine until they feel they've nailed the user experience before they bring any of it to market. Even then have they made mistakes? of course but overall they tend to get it right.
Here's an example from John Kheit over at MacObserver who after vilifying Apple on a point by point basis beyond everything discussed here had this to say about the microsoft surface studio.
"Microsoft’s Surface Studio is cool in theory and in hardware, but after playing with one, I think Apple dodged a bullet. First, outside the apps made/updated for the 28″ touch screen, Surface Studio with Windows 10 still has the wrong interface ‘recipe.’ This is much like Microsoft’s original Tablet PCwas the right idea with the wrong implementation, and which was subsequently usurped by the iPad’s right recipe. I found it cumbersome to deal with tiny widgets (e.g., checkboxes, popup menus, window grab areas, etc.) with my fingers. It was worse when trying to deal with touch UI elements using a mouse. Surface Studio doesn’t detect and ‘get’ your context well enough, yet. For example, even within the creative paint/draw apps tailored for the 28″ touch screen, the Surface Studio would often get confused when I’m pinching/zooming/rotating. It would instead draw at my fingertips. Also, using the Surface Dial is not intuitive in switching through its modes. For instance, it might be left in a cool time-scrub undo/redo mode, then you click out to use a mode, say, that lets you choose colors. You have to click up and out to different rings of colors in a non-intuitive clunky way to actually select a color–think Watch UI 1.0 but worse. Then the apps will lose track of the Dial completely, and the advice of the Microsoft employees is to restart the app, and if it still doesn’t find the Dial, restart the machine! However, what is completely clear is, Microsoft nailed the hardware."
I would like more analysis of the product along these lines for verification but if true, this could be why Apple has not "released" a similar product yet. I have no doubt they have prototypes in this and many other form factors but they haven't found that "recipe" that translates into a polished user experience. Could you imagine the vitriol thrown at apple were it to release a product similar to this right now if the touch interface got confused about what the user was trying to do consistently? or if one of its main accessories got "lost" and the only recourse is a reboot?...they would be crucified.
Has it happened before, usability issues/bugs/etc. Of course. Would it happen again. No doubt. But it seems Apple isn't happy with large screen application of the touch interface yet. Time will tell if the touch bar is a useful tool or a gimmick, but would you rather have a MacBook Pro that still performs as a laptop even if it becomes a gimmick or a 28" touch screen workstation that ultimately you're abandoning touch features because they simply don't work or force reboots regularly?
Maybe Microsoft will fix and refine the problems with the next OS update, maybe the one after that, or the next...who knows. But it seems they rushed a beta product to market for a splash and will fix usability problems going forward, this is something Apple rarely does intentionally.
So the form factor and concept is a home run, just the interface and implementation sounds like it will be frustrating for the end user. Here is a apple patent from 4 yrs ago on a touch screen iMac so it's not like Apple has been ignorant or unaware of this hardware/software combo possibility. They just IMO haven't found the right "recipe" to launch the product yet.
Xlnt post. Formatting in this forum software is a bear on an iPad, eh? You take your life in your hands, blood-pressure-wise, when you try to get in and out of italics.
Lol. Thank You. No it's more of the trying to fit time in between work and posting to forums to really proof read my posts...formatting edited now
A touchscreen MacBook Pro would still be a terrific idea. I can think of many instances which would've been improved with direct screen interaction, versus trying to find the right key command or position on the trackpad.
I find it amusing that no one has actually used the touch bar (aside from journalists who got 5 minutes with it in a demo room) but yet are already declaring it a gimmick.
Agree completely. This has happened time and again with Apple products and features. Panned without actually using them, and then they are imitated. Not that every feature in an Apple Original Innovation, but that it or their implementation is labeled a gimmick, a 'gimmick' that gets a lot of traction.
By the way a few posters on MacRumors purchased the non-touch bar 13" rMBP and say hands down it's the best Mac laptop they've ever owned. People are forming opinions on products they haven't spent 2 seconds with
I don't understand this bit. If we remove your '2 seconds' hyperbole, assuming those posters actually have that MBP, how much time is actually required to form that opinion? There's basically no innovation in that model over the previous version. It version iteration, not new tech.
It shouldn't take very long for them to know whether or not this is an improvement over their previous gear, especially if some of them didn't have a Retina display previously.
Obviously they can't speak to reliability yet, but since when is that a requirement before posting a valid opinion? Especially if it's not about reliability. I haven't seen the posts, so maybe something's missing in your translation. But unless these posts are made before the product is even available, as in the 'gimmick' posts, I don't see why they'd be suspect.
I think the Touch Bar will prove to be a useful UI innovation. It replaces the seldom used F-keys (because almost no one can remember what they do) with a graphical, contextual UI aid. Being at the top of the keyboard is good because you don't have to move your arm as far as reaching up to touch the screen. How many ergonomics studies have been done that say reaching up and touching a screen all day long is fatiguing and not a good way to work long-term? Tablets work because you pull the screen down to where your hand is; you don't do that with laptops or desktop UIs. Add in smudges & oils from touching, the imprecision of a finger compared to an on-screen pointer, and problems with covering the screen when jabbing at it, and I think the Touch Bar looks pretty good.
I'm grumpy at Apple for lots of other decisions made related to the new MacBooks but not the Touch Bar.
Agree 100%. I use the 'F" keys only as the Apple keys— brightness, volume, etc. and not as Function keys for the very reason you iterate.
Occasionally reaching up to a touch screen probably wouldn't result in Gorilla Arm, but I'd say it breaks the rhythm of workflow even more than moving back and forth from the trackpad and keys.
Reaching up to the Touch Bar is no different then using an F-key that it replaced. As developers tune their apps to use the Touch Bar, people will be reaching more conveniently for one of those 'keys' than a mouse or the trackpad to click a function or feature.
There will be some muscle memory retraining, but I think that after awhile of using it, it will be nearly indispensable for a lot of users, unlike actual F-key functions that many of us never use.
I also don't want a bunch of fingerprints all over my display! I like using an iPad and iPhone and so resign myself to constantly cleaning the displays. But I don't want that for my laptop/desktop computers.
I find it amusing that no one has actually used the touch bar (aside from journalists who got 5 minutes with it in a demo room) but yet are already declaring it a gimmick.
I'll make a prediction right now: more people will own the new MBP and it's so-called gimmicky touch bar than will ever own a Microsoft Surface Studio. Btw, I've seen tweets from people who have tried out the Surface Studio at Microsoft stores say the latency is pretty bad and it's no where close to Apple Pencil and iPad Pro. Of course everyone in the tech press got the memo (Microsoft is more innovative than Apple right now) so they're all singing from the same song book. But we all know which device the hipsters at The Verge will actually own and it's not the $3K Surface Studio.
When I watched the presentation and the woman from Adobe was presenting what Photoshop would be able to do, I sensed that she really felt that the touch bar is going to take that product to a whole new level. Somehow I think it will take many products to whole new levels of usability.
The woman from Adobe was the high point of the whole show.
I thought that...too.
I don't use photoshop, won't buy a MBP (as I have no use for one) but I thought so too. Wonder how long she stays an Adobe employee? I smell relocation to Cuppertino.
A touchscreen MacBook Pro would still be a terrific idea. I can think of many instances which would've been improved with direct screen interaction, versus trying to find the right key command or position on the trackpad.
Take a look at the iPad pro. It might be just what you need.
It seems to come down to this: do you want a persistent cursor on the screen or not? If yes = mac/macOS. If no = iPad.iOS.
I'm not keen on Ive. I think his taste is bad and no one is keeping him in line. Whether him or someone else, Apple better give us at least a hint of a roadmap for Mac Pro computers soon. Right now, there's a lot of claims of investing in research and each time a product comes out, it's not all that useful to content-creators with great GPU/CPU and RAM demands.
I did a bit of research on the MacPro and more specifically the Xeon line of chips that Intel makes and the MacPro uses. The issue is that Xeon is based on chip designs as far back as Ivy Bridge and new designs have not yet surfaced that could leverage TB3 or faster RAM. Apple is once again held captive by Intel. Even their latest chips just have a few more cores or less cores with slightly better clock speed. So it seems that Apple is in a holding pattern until new Xeon chips and chipsets are available that handle the direction that Apple wants computing to go. Otherwise you're looking at very small, incremental advanced that might not be worth the effort and distract against a bigger update.
I like Touch Bar. It provides a lot of the functionality of a touchscreen for Mac without creating a hybrid macOS that would disorient existing users and software developers. Those who are happy with the status quo (OSX, macOS) should not be disturbed any more than necessary. Forgetting that is where hybrid-Windows jumped the track.
However, I would like to see a slightly deeper Touch Bar on future MacBooks, at the expense of the Touch Pad. Maybe another 1/4". That would add about 30% to the Touch Bar, while only reducing the Touch Pad by 5-10%. That would enable more touchscreen-like operations to occur on Touch Bar, and accommodate those with larger fingers.
In later iterations, Apple could also replace the row of number keys with the Touch Bar, and rely instead on virtual number keys. That way, when the need arises a 2" deep Touch Bar strip would be available to perform a wider range of touchscreen functions, including finger-pinching and Pencil activities. The Touch Pad is opaque, and is therefore not suitable for careful Pencil work.
Beside the Touch Bar, where is the Magsafe? Why take it out? Why....?
Very disappointed...
Why? Because Apple's backyard is full of broken cable MagSafe adapters. Because of historical reasons MagSafe is an incomplete product. It should exist on both sides but the right side of the Macbook was occupied by the SuperDrive. Since it happens to use Macbooks under very unusual placements, the cable breaks within time due to the stress on the magnetic end. Apple was aware of that and changed the orientation of the plug. But as we know that straight plug Lightning cables break too, this orientation change is not a definitive solution. Thunderbolt 3 and USB-C resolved this issue permanently and definitively.
So if your USB-C or TB 3 cable breaks, your loss is only a few bucks, but if your MagSafe cable breaks, your loss is $79.00 because you need to replace the whole adapter.
I'm not keen on Ive. I think his taste is bad and no one is keeping him in line. Whether him or someone else, Apple better give us at least a hint of a roadmap for Mac Pro computers soon. Right now, there's a lot of claims of investing in research and each time a product comes out, it's not all that useful to content-creators with great GPU/CPU and RAM demands.
Keeping him in line? How so? If anything Apple seems less about one person being the decider than they were before Cook became CEO. I highly doubt he's responsible for the lack of Mac Pro update, especially if it's just a matter of refreshing internals.
Look at Surface Look at Macbook Make sure Macbook does not look like a copy of Surface
It blows my mind why Apple has not made these products yet:
1. A true 2 in 1 Mac/iPad. The tech is there to do it already.
2. An iPhone with smaller bezel. Come on. Even POS china companies can do this
3. New MacPro
No idea why Apple is slow now days
You are the reason Google and Samsung have customers. Just because technology can accomplish something doesn't mean it should be done. In fact it rarely means it should be done. Apple's focus and ability to say "no" is still their greatest strength. It's easy to say "yes" to everything that demos well or looks cool.
That being said, Apple is slower these days because they're 10x larger than they were just a few years ago. All companies slow down when they are that big and especially when they are the market leader in the most profitable technology (mobile hardware) in the world.
Yes to your first paragraph, disagree with your second.
Much more important than the company's size is the stage of the technology they are working on. The form factors of the laptop or the phone are pretty much settled on. Now the evolution that can happen is only on the very narrowed and deeper cutting edge. As Jony says in the interview, for example, they're focused on materials on the molecular level — their own aluminum alloys — and presumably other new materials — like Liquid Metal?
In the case of the new MacBook Pros, the three-year gap in new editions may primarily be the result of the long struggle to get oxide backplanes into mass production, which we've known Apple to be R&Ding for several years. That one dramatic improvement in electron motility in the oxide material for the backplane for the pixel matrix is what allowed the dramatic shrinkage of the laptop package — that, and the availability of the USB C port, which along with the butterfly swich mechanism, allow for a flatter body.
Not to mention the two years it took in back-and-forth prototyping that a new UI interface refinement like the touch bar requires.
If there's inertia in the system, it's in the complexity of what's on the bleeding edge.
agreed -- basically, all of the low-hanging fruit has already been collected. the more complicated stuff is slower going. it's kind of like that in every industrys, really.
One thing you can count on about Apple is consistency. They don't change things for change's sake.
Except for the GUI in iOS... and slowly, they're doing the same to Mac OS.
you're claiming they're changing the GUI for change's sake, and not for the reason that they feel it's a benefit, however arguable or however much you disagree? that's really what you're saying? get real or go home.
A touchscreen MacBook Pro would still be a terrific idea. I can think of many instances which would've been improved with direct screen interaction, versus trying to find the right key command or position on the trackpad.
no, it still wouldn't be a terrific idea. they tried it, you haven't. they know what they're talking about, you don't. eos
I find it amusing that no one has actually used the touch bar (aside from journalists who got 5 minutes with it in a demo room) but yet are already declaring it a gimmick.
Agree completely. This has happened time and again with Apple products and features. Panned without actually using them, and then they are imitated. Not that every feature in an Apple Original Innovation, but that it or their implementation is labeled a gimmick, a 'gimmick' that gets a lot of traction.
By the way a few posters on MacRumors purchased the non-touch bar 13" rMBP and say hands down it's the best Mac laptop they've ever owned. People are forming opinions on products they haven't spent 2 seconds with
I don't understand this bit. If we remove your '2 seconds' hyperbole, assuming those posters actually have that MBP, how much time is actually required to form that opinion? There's basically no innovation in that model over the previous version. It version iteration, not new tech.
It shouldn't take very long for them to know whether or not this is an improvement over their previous gear, especially if some of them didn't have a Retina display previously.
Obviously they can't speak to reliability yet, but since when is that a requirement before posting a valid opinion? Especially if it's not about reliability. I haven't seen the posts, so maybe something's missing in your translation. But unless these posts are made before the product is even available, as in the 'gimmick' posts, I don't see why they'd be suspect.
I just happen to be the purchaser of the new 13" non-Touch Bar, rMBP. I am coming from a 13" MBP (early 2011) w/o Retina. I've also owned the older black MacBook in the past. I just picked up the new rMBP this Saturday and I have spent more than "2 seconds" with it. And yes, I will say (already) that it is by far the best MacBook I have ever used/owned to date (even sans the touch bar.) Obviously I can't comment on it's reliability/longevity yet but I am very impressed so far. The oxide Retina screen is beautiful. The almost 12 hours of battery life from its first charge is incredible. The size, form-factor, thinness and light weight compared to my old MBP is noticeable. The stability and familiarity of macOS Sierra is comforting. The speed of it's Skylake processor is snappy. And the traditional Apple quality is ever present.
So, even though I have had it for a very short amount of time, I can easily and honestly make the above observations and feel that, in my opinion, I've made a great choice in a new laptop that I hope will give me another 4-5 years of satisfaction...
A touchscreen MacBook Pro would still be a terrific idea. I can think of many instances which would've been improved with direct screen interaction, versus trying to find the right key command or position on the trackpad.
Take a look at the iPad pro. It might be just what you need.
It seems to come down to this: do you want a persistent cursor on the screen or not? If yes = mac/macOS. If no = iPad.iOS.
I have an iPad Pro, iPad Air 2, iPhone, iMac & more. As I mentioned, I remember a number of times it would have made a lot of sense to have that direct interaction with the screen, specifically when using maps onscreen, GarageBand, various graphics and paint programs... I'm personally not in the market for a MacBook Pro, but I'll be passing on getting the new one for my business for now. I do want to see what they are going to do with the new iMac.
A touchscreen MacBook Pro would still be a terrific idea. I can think of many instances which would've been improved with direct screen interaction, versus trying to find the right key command or position on the trackpad.
Take a look at the iPad pro. It might be just what you need.
It seems to come down to this: do you want a persistent cursor on the screen or not? If yes = mac/macOS. If no = iPad.iOS.
I have an iPad Pro, iPad Air 2, iPhone, iMac & more. As I mentioned, I remember a number of times it would have made a lot of sense to have that direct interaction with the screen, specifically when using maps onscreen, GarageBand, various graphics and paint programs... I'm personally not in the market for a MacBook Pro, but I'll be passing on getting the new one for my business for now. I do want to see what they are going to do with the new iMac.
While I concur with your curiosity on the iMac, I don't understand wanting to interact with its screen. It seems if you want to do that, you reach for the iPad pro that is optimized for that experience. If it is out of reach, well, I sort of understand. I can't relate since I don't use the screen in the way you describe...nor would I want to. It may just be me, but I don't see a case for a touchscreen laptop or desktop. It's been done - it's an iPad pro.
Fairly, you might see a mondo iPad Pro appear to compete with the microsoft design thingy that just came out. A well designed stand and a BT keyboard an voila- an iOS touchscreen desktop. But you wouldn't use it like an iMac - you'd use it...well...like that MS thing.
A touchscreen MacBook Pro would still be a terrific idea. I can think of many instances which would've been improved with direct screen interaction, versus trying to find the right key command or position on the trackpad.
Take a look at the iPad pro. It might be just what you need.
It seems to come down to this: do you want a persistent cursor on the screen or not? If yes = mac/macOS. If no = iPad.iOS.
I have an iPad Pro, iPad Air 2, iPhone, iMac & more. As I mentioned, I remember a number of times it would have made a lot of sense to have that direct interaction with the screen, specifically when using maps onscreen, GarageBand, various graphics and paint programs... I'm personally not in the market for a MacBook Pro, but I'll be passing on getting the new one for my business for now. I do want to see what they are going to do with the new iMac.
While I concur with your curiosity on the iMac, I don't understand wanting to interact with its screen. It seems if you want to do that, you reach for the iPad pro that is optimized for that experience. If it is out of reach, well, I sort of understand. I can't relate since I don't use the screen in the way you describe...nor would I want to. It may just be me, but I don't see a case for a touchscreen laptop or desktop. It's been done - it's an iPad pro.
Fairly, you might see a mondo iPad Pro appear to compete with the microsoft design thingy that just came out. A well designed stand and a BT keyboard an voila- an iOS touchscreen desktop. But you wouldn't use it like an iMac - you'd use it...well...like that MS thing.
An iPad Pro Plus (super-sized iPad) from Apple would be preferable to one from Microsoft, believe me.
Comments
By the way a few posters on MacRumors purchased the non-touch bar 13" rMBP and say hands down it's the best Mac laptop they've ever owned. People are forming opinions on products they haven't spent 2 seconds with
I don't understand this bit. If we remove your '2 seconds' hyperbole, assuming those posters actually have that MBP, how much time is actually required to form that opinion? There's basically no innovation in that model over the previous version. It version iteration, not new tech.
It shouldn't take very long for them to know whether or not this is an improvement over their previous gear, especially if some of them didn't have a Retina display previously.
Obviously they can't speak to reliability yet, but since when is that a requirement before posting a valid opinion? Especially if it's not about reliability. I haven't seen the posts, so maybe something's missing in your translation. But unless these posts are made before the product is even available, as in the 'gimmick' posts, I don't see why they'd be suspect.
Agree 100%. I use the 'F" keys only as the Apple keys— brightness, volume, etc. and not as Function keys for the very reason you iterate.
Occasionally reaching up to a touch screen probably wouldn't result in Gorilla Arm, but I'd say it breaks the rhythm of workflow even more than moving back and forth from the trackpad and keys.
Reaching up to the Touch Bar is no different then using an F-key that it replaced. As developers tune their apps to use the Touch Bar, people will be reaching more conveniently for one of those 'keys' than a mouse or the trackpad to click a function or feature.
There will be some muscle memory retraining, but I think that after awhile of using it, it will be nearly indispensable for a lot of users, unlike actual F-key functions that many of us never use.
I also don't want a bunch of fingerprints all over my display! I like using an iPad and iPhone and so resign myself to constantly cleaning the displays. But I don't want that for my laptop/desktop computers.
It seems to come down to this: do you want a persistent cursor on the screen or not? If yes = mac/macOS. If no = iPad.iOS.
However, I would like to see a slightly deeper Touch Bar on future MacBooks, at the expense of the Touch Pad. Maybe another 1/4". That would add about 30% to the Touch Bar, while only reducing the Touch Pad by 5-10%. That would enable more touchscreen-like operations to occur on Touch Bar, and accommodate those with larger fingers.
In later iterations, Apple could also replace the row of number keys with the Touch Bar, and rely instead on virtual number keys. That way, when the need arises a 2" deep Touch Bar strip would be available to perform a wider range of touchscreen functions, including finger-pinching and Pencil activities. The Touch Pad is opaque, and is therefore not suitable for careful Pencil work.
you're claiming they're changing the GUI for change's sake, and not for the reason that they feel it's a benefit, however arguable or however much you disagree? that's really what you're saying? get real or go home.
So, even though I have had it for a very short amount of time, I can easily and honestly make the above observations and feel that, in my opinion, I've made a great choice in a new laptop that I hope will give me another 4-5 years of satisfaction...
Fairly, you might see a mondo iPad Pro appear to compete with the microsoft design thingy that just came out. A well designed stand and a BT keyboard an voila- an iOS touchscreen desktop. But you wouldn't use it like an iMac - you'd use it...well...like that MS thing.