rune66Lenovo laptops have been known to come with bloteware, and modified BIOS's. said:
I have been a loyal Mac buyer for 20 years but more and more is being taken away. Why is that I can get a fantastic Lenovo Thinkpad with OLED display, a proper keyboard, all the memory I need, a semi matte display that doesn't work like a mirror, for the same price as a MacBook Pro with yesterdays technology and a stupid gimmick touchbar. Apples other hardware offerings are running upgrades in slow motion not even knowing when there'll be another. And Mac OS? For last several iterations nothing has happened only loads of irrelevant features. To me Apple is without direction on the Mac hardware and OS-side.
What percentage of MacBook Pro users have ever replaced their hard drive or SSD drive? I'll bet it's 1-2%, if even that.
This is a non-issue. If it means better reliability by removing a known point of failure (albeit rare), and it being the fastest SSD drive speeds anywhere, I'm all for it.
No tears are shed from me. I'm waiting for them to be in the stores so I can see one for myself, and likely purchase one.
The speed gains from this setup are minimal at best, as the article stated.
And I've replaced hard drives on laptops a handful of times. Once because the old one was going bad, once because the person wanted more drive capacity. It's a normal DIY thing to be able to do.
No one's asking for the ability to change out the processor or put in a new fan assembly. We know these aren't build-it-yourself towers. But if you're going to take away a capability from me that can significantly save me time and money, you'd better be delivering a huge tangible benefit in return. But they aren't. So it comes off as a money grab and not caring about your customers.
I tend to use my laptops for six years before replacing them. My first-gen MBP is being used by my twelve-year-old for homework. A SSD has a limited lifespan. This is (sort-of) okay with a tablet or a phone, but I'm looking at spending over $3,000 on the new MacBook Pro early next year (to replace my early-2011). I'm highly unlikely to do spend that kind of cash on a machine that Apple is now considering disposable when a part wears out.
Even if it was removable, you wouldn't want to replace it because these SSDs have an Apple controller and they run on NVMExpress and not on SATA-3 like the rest of the industry. Apple is the first to implement NVMExpress SSDs. SATA-3 SSDs are limited to 300-400 MB/s. NVMExpress peaks at 2-3 GB/s. If any PC maker launches a laptop with NVMExpress next year, you can bet that it will cost you much more than that $3000 you're willing to spend.
We will have to wait and see about prices but competition is absolutely essential for Apple to adjust pricing. They order at good prices and excellent quality tolerances. They then apply a healthy markup. The current situation is not good for Apple users.
I don't understand the whining behind this. If you can spend $1800+ for a laptop, why skim $200 for the storage? Really don't get it!
Because some people can't spend $1800 for a laptop. It might be a stretch for them to spend $1499 for one and they can't afford pricey upgrades from Apple. But they want to remain Apple customers and they buy the best one they can afford. And if they need more storage later, they used to be able to know they could easily snag a larger drive off Amazon or from OWC for a good price and pop it in themselves in minutes.
Apple does not sell cheap crap.
You well know Apple sells premium products.
So $300 spread over 5 years is going to be a deal breaker? Really? We are talking literally 16 cents a day.
Like all Apple products you may pay more upfront, but its worth it.
Who said anything about wanting cheap crap? The whole reason someone is paying extra for a Mac is that they recognize that. And since when is being able to replace something as no-brainer as a hard drive an indication of said "cheap crap?" Newsflash: not everyone can spend whatever they wish on a laptop. And you aren't really delivering something of real benefit to them for this newly enforced additional premium.
I tend to use my laptops for six years before replacing them. My first-gen MBP is being used by my twelve-year-old for homework. A SSD has a limited lifespan. This is (sort-of) okay with a tablet or a phone, but I'm looking at spending over $3,000 on the new MacBook Pro early next year (to replace my early-2011). I'm highly unlikely to do spend that kind of cash on a machine that Apple is now considering disposable when a part wears out.
Modern SSD drives and the algorithms used to minimize the drive "wearing-out" will match, if not exceed mechanical hard drives. Considering the huge performance and reliability factors of SSD drives compared to mechanical ones, it's an easy decision.
Stop bringing up obsolete news. By the time SSD drives wear out, you won't upgrade the laptop. You'll just buy a new one with whatever current technology it has... admit it, because you know that's right.
If this is true, this is good to know. Perhaps I am working with obsolete news. My understanding was that there were limited read/write cycles for these drives and that they would (could?) conceivably fail within a manner of a few years. I certainly have had traditional HDD failures in a relatively short period of time, but it hasn't bothered me because these drives are replaceable (and because I try to keep my data backed up).
The potential for SSD failure also hasn't bothered me because I know I can replace them in my current machines (my mid-2011 Mac Mini has two SSDs, my early-2011 MBP has one SSD and a HDD as I yanked out the seldom-used optical drive). If these new machines have SSDs that will last me at least 5-6 years, then I'll calm down (and probably throw Apple a bunch of my money).
Stop doing this shit. No one likes it. It's of zero benefit to your customers. We don't care if it allows the laptop to be two microns thinner or a tenth of a gram lighter. Two things should always be user upgradeable: RAM and a hard drive. If the motherboard or some power port is hard to access and replace, so be it. Most people will never touch those things. But if my hard drive craps out or the RAM goes blinky, I should be able to pop open a case, pull the bad part out and snap the good one in.
I love Apple products, but this shit is getting old.
Waahhh....
It's a non-issue for just about everyone. The fact that you feel progress means denying you a rarely-used ability is of zero consequence for just about everyone else.
Go cry elsewhere. This is a solid update, removes a known failure-point, and uses the fastest SSD drives around. Get lost.
Then you should be able to easily tell me not only how often these "failure points" actually fail and how much faster the drive is in this configuration over one that is removable.
Stop doing this shit. No one likes it. It's of zero benefit to your customers. We don't care if it allows the laptop to be two microns thinner or a tenth of a gram lighter. Two things should always be user upgradeable: RAM and a hard drive. If the motherboard or some power port is hard to access and replace, so be it. Most people will never touch those things. But if my hard drive craps out or the RAM goes blinky, I should be able to pop open a case, pull the bad part out and snap the good one in.
I love Apple products, but this shit is getting old.
Do you feel the same way for iPhones?
Do you expect iPhones to be self serviced also?
of course not. Apple is looking forward, you are looking back.
Its the same reason why iPhones don't have removable storage or hardrive upgrades.
Tiny handheld electronics, no. They are much harder to work on by their very nature because of the extremely tight fit and tiny parts. But a desktop or laptop? Yes, I do. Like I say, I'm not asking for the entire inside to be user serviceable. But hard drive and RAM upgrades are basic no-brainer stuff. My 66 year-old mother could follow the instructions on a hard drive upgrade and pull it off. It might be a little less annoying if the upgrades to RAM and hard drive capacity weren't so bloody expensive when you do those upgrades on the front end from Apple, though I'd still want to choke someone when the hard drive in my laptop crapped out and I couldn't have it replaced in 20 minutes of my time.
Perhaps you can explain to me what tangible benefit you gain from Apple soldering a hard drive to a motherboard or soldering RAM to the motherboard. Maybe I'm missing something.
The benefit of soldering RAM and harddrive is the same reason as on the iPhone:
save space
more reliable
stop users from putting crappy 3rd party crap in their computer
Everyone made a big deal about iPhones not having SD card slots a couple years ago. Those people look like idiots now. The same will be with Flash/RAM for Macbooks.
Again Apple is looking forward and you are looking back to the 1980's
This makes sense in something as small as an iPhone. But there are finger width gaps inside this MBP case between some of the parts. They weren't hurting for internal space that necessitated soldering the hard drive in. So the save space argument holds no water.
The failure rate on hard drives over the connector to make it removable is minimal. Far lower than the failure rate of actual hard drives themselves. This is a bullshit argument.
The price difference in high quality drives from Samsung, Crucial or OWC and "crappy 3rd party crap" isn't enough to make the vast majority of people who would undertake this buy the crap part.
Apple has basically delivered infinitesimally small benefit to the user with this setup while taking real, practical benefits they previously had away. And the only way around it is to pay for inflatedly priced upgrades on the front end...which still doesn't help you if the part goes bad.
Stop doing this shit. No one likes it. It's of zero benefit to your customers. We don't care if it allows the laptop to be two microns thinner or a tenth of a gram lighter. Two things should always be user upgradeable: RAM and a hard drive. If the motherboard or some power port is hard to access and replace, so be it. Most people will never touch those things. But if my hard drive craps out or the RAM goes blinky, I should be able to pop open a case, pull the bad part out and snap the good one in.
I love Apple products, but this shit is getting old.
Waahhh....
It's a non-issue for just about everyone. The fact that you feel progress means denying you a rarely-used ability is of zero consequence for just about everyone else.
Go cry elsewhere. This is a solid update, removes a known failure-point, and uses the fastest SSD drives around. Get lost.
And it's hard to believe someone is a pro-user when they keep referring to a solid state drive a hard (disk) drive.
I didn't know Pro meant removable storage? I wonder how many times someone has actually changed their storage later on?
pro enterprise software dev here, let me chime in. never -- never is the number of times I've later changed the storage on my MBPs. or any of my client-issued laptops, for that matter. they have a lifespan and once its expired i or they replace it. it's that simple.
Let me counter that with the fact that I have upgraded the internal storage on every MBP that my family has had. As for the lifespan, it is until they fail but some get requalified as secondary machines when we get a new one so a user could have two active machines at once.
There is a healthy aftermarket trade for upgrades to some machines.
Am I right in thinking that, should these soldered on drives suffer some kind of failure, the entire motherboard will need replacing?
Stop doing this shit. No one likes it. It's of zero benefit to your customers. We don't care if it allows the laptop to be two microns thinner or a tenth of a gram lighter. Two things should always be user upgradeable: RAM and a hard drive. If the motherboard or some power port is hard to access and replace, so be it. Most people will never touch those things. But if my hard drive craps out or the RAM goes blinky, I should be able to pop open a case, pull the bad part out and snap the good one in.
I love Apple products, but this shit is getting old.
Waahhh....
It's a non-issue for just about everyone. The fact that you feel progress means denying you a rarely-used ability is of zero consequence for just about everyone else.
Go cry elsewhere. This is a solid update, removes a known failure-point, and uses the fastest SSD drives around. Get lost.
And it's hard to believe someone is a pro-user when they keep referring to a solid state drive a hard (disk) drive.
I didn't say hard (disk) drive. I used what has become a generic term: hard drive. As opposed to a floppy, or a CDR, or other such storage. Don't be an ass to try and make a point.
THe design of the Macbook is a complete flaw.
You need several dongles, SSD and RAM are fixed into Logic board, Limited to 16 GB ram,
And they call it "PRO".
The only Pro thing is the price,
PRO OVERPRICEd....
PRO Dongle
PRO Not expandability
You cannot even connect your own iPhone-iPad...what a joke..
I wonder why they had to come and do damage control and lower the prices of dongles...
Biggest product growing category at Apple: Dongles...
Stop doing this shit. No one likes it. It's of zero benefit to your customers. We don't care if it allows the laptop to be two microns thinner or a tenth of a gram lighter. Two things should always be user upgradeable: RAM and a hard drive. If the motherboard or some power port is hard to access and replace, so be it. Most people will never touch those things. But if my hard drive craps out or the RAM goes blinky, I should be able to pop open a case, pull the bad part out and snap the good one in.
I love Apple products, but this shit is getting old.
Waahhh....
It's a non-issue for just about everyone. The fact that you feel progress means denying you a rarely-used ability is of zero consequence for just about everyone else.
Go cry elsewhere. This is a solid update, removes a known failure-point, and uses the fastest SSD drives around. Get lost.
And it's hard to believe someone is a pro-user when they keep referring to a solid state drive a hard (disk) drive.
I didn't say hard (disk) drive. I used what has become a generic term: hard drive. As opposed to a floppy, or a CDR, or other such storage. Don't be an ass to try and make a point.
1) You're not even a pro-user of English. "Disk" in parentheses is a clue.
2) A pro-user would use the term SSD. You might even refer to the types of interconnects and protocols used if trying to make a valid argument as to why Apple has failed you over other OEMs*.
* OEM refers to an Original Equipment Manufacturer.
Stop doing this shit. No one likes it. It's of zero benefit to your customers. We don't care if it allows the laptop to be two microns thinner or a tenth of a gram lighter. Two things should always be user upgradeable: RAM and a hard drive. If the motherboard or some power port is hard to access and replace, so be it. Most people will never touch those things. But if my hard drive craps out or the RAM goes blinky, I should be able to pop open a case, pull the bad part out and snap the good one in.
I love Apple products, but this shit is getting old.
Waahhh....
It's a non-issue for just about everyone. The fact that you feel progress means denying you a rarely-used ability is of zero consequence for just about everyone else.
Go cry elsewhere. This is a solid update, removes a known failure-point, and uses the fastest SSD drives around. Get lost.
Non-issue for just about anyone? I doubt it. You shouldn't be trying to speak for almost everyone. A proportionally small number of upgraders will be coming from SSD Macs. It's a question of upgrade cycles. A proportionally high number of those upgraders will opt for the lowest outlay (256GB SSD) because these machines are expensive. That means that many of them will probably be moving to lower capacity machines. We will see if they feel the squeeze sooner rather than later and how they feel about going external.
I didn't know Pro meant removable storage? I wonder how many times someone has actually changed their storage later on?
This is something I've been likely to do several time with the SATA connector in the 2.5" form factor. However, since moving to the PCIe connector in the MBP I've not done it, but I also moved to having a lot of local storage and syncing via iCloud, so it wasn't as needed in a notebook.
Thats the thing...there are other places to store your stuff. Gone are the days where everything needs to be stored on the computer itself. You can use iCloud, OneDrive, Amazon, Google, etc all have solutions for this. And, you can access this stuff from anywhere, not just only while you have your Mac in front of you. Lastly, if you use iCloud its very easy to sync everything to other Apple devices (including other Macs) which is super handy and it does work well.
Its these old school so called "Professionals" that don't want to work in the 21st century that are bitching about this.
Again people vote with your wallets. Bitching on an internet message board does no good.
Oh but it does! Do you think Phil Schiller came out twice in quick succession to 'defend' these machines on a whim?
Nope. It is a direct result of the very vocal backlash these machines have provoked.
If people vote with their wallets too, Apple might even eat some humble pie and react to ease some of the unnecessary issues it has brought on itself and many of its users.
The people have spoken and voted with their wallets...There is no eating on Apple's end!
I don't understand the whining behind this. If you can spend $1800+ for a laptop, why skim $200 for the storage? Really don't get it!
Because some people can't spend $1800 for a laptop. It might be a stretch for them to spend $1499 for one and they can't afford pricey upgrades from Apple. But they want to remain Apple customers and they buy the best one they can afford. And if they need more storage later, they used to be able to know they could easily snag a larger drive off Amazon or from OWC for a good price and pop it in themselves in minutes.
Thank you for that. Those users also don't want to spend so much and have the sensation they are being bled by Apple.
There was a time when the unified motherboard architecture at Apple meant that the only real differentiator between different models in the same line was processor, RAM and storage.
Ever since the marketers took control, everything is designed to get you to pay more.
Stop doing this shit. No one likes it. It's of zero benefit to your customers. We don't care if it allows the laptop to be two microns thinner or a tenth of a gram lighter. Two things should always be user upgradeable: RAM and a hard drive. If the motherboard or some power port is hard to access and replace, so be it. Most people will never touch those things. But if my hard drive craps out or the RAM goes blinky, I should be able to pop open a case, pull the bad part out and snap the good one in.
I love Apple products, but this shit is getting old.
Do you feel the same way for iPhones?
Do you expect iPhones to be self serviced also?
of course not. Apple is looking forward, you are looking back.
Its the same reason why iPhones don't have removable storage or hardrive upgrades.
Tiny handheld electronics, no. They are much harder to work on by their very nature because of the extremely tight fit and tiny parts. But a desktop or laptop? Yes, I do. Like I say, I'm not asking for the entire inside to be user serviceable. But hard drive and RAM upgrades are basic no-brainer stuff. My 66 year-old mother could follow the instructions on a hard drive upgrade and pull it off. It might be a little less annoying if the upgrades to RAM and hard drive capacity weren't so bloody expensive when you do those upgrades on the front end from Apple, though I'd still want to choke someone when the hard drive in my laptop crapped out and I couldn't have it replaced in 20 minutes of my time.
Perhaps you can explain to me what tangible benefit you gain from Apple soldering a hard drive to a motherboard or soldering RAM to the motherboard. Maybe I'm missing something.
But the thing is...how many people actually do this on average? 1%? 5%? Apple isn't going to engineer a MacBook Pro for the 1-5% that "may" end up replacing/upgrading their own flash storage. If you didn't notice, this has been coming for quite some time. With nearly every new major Mac release you're seeing this. Yet, people still buy these. So its quite obvious the majority don't care whether or not they can pop the bottom panel off and replace RAM, storage, etc. As I've said, this is old school thinking and its simply isn't necessary in today's world. There are other ways and other places to store your things should you need more space.
I don't understand the whining behind this. If you can spend $1800+ for a laptop, why skim $200 for the storage? Really don't get it!
Because some people can't spend $1800 for a laptop. It might be a stretch for them to spend $1499 for one and they can't afford pricey upgrades from Apple. But they want to remain Apple customers and they buy the best one they can afford. And if they need more storage later, they used to be able to know they could easily snag a larger drive off Amazon or from OWC for a good price and pop it in themselves in minutes.
Then go buy something else. Nobody is forcing you to buy a new Mac. Its only a matter of time until other manufacturers follow suit with the rare exceptions.
MacRumors, AI is giving you a run for your money. Negative Nellies ("Apple is crap"), Chicken Littles ("Apple is doomed"), trolls ("I throw bags of flaming shit in rooms and giggle") and their sycophantic followers ("I've got my tongue firmly embedded in each of the others' bungholios, and damn I love the taste!") abound here, all racing to be the first to post the first negative comment.
Stop doing this shit. No one likes it. It's of zero benefit to your customers. We don't care if it allows the laptop to be two microns thinner or a tenth of a gram lighter. Two things should always be user upgradeable: RAM and a hard drive. If the motherboard or some power port is hard to access and replace, so be it. Most people will never touch those things. But if my hard drive craps out or the RAM goes blinky, I should be able to pop open a case, pull the bad part out and snap the good one in.
I love Apple products, but this shit is getting old.
Waahhh....
It's a non-issue for just about everyone. The fact that you feel progress means denying you a rarely-used ability is of zero consequence for just about everyone else.
Go cry elsewhere. This is a solid update, removes a known failure-point, and uses the fastest SSD drives around. Get lost.
And it's hard to believe someone is a pro-user when they keep referring to a solid state drive a hard (disk) drive.
I didn't say hard (disk) drive. I used what has become a generic term: hard drive. As opposed to a floppy, or a CDR, or other such storage. Don't be an ass to try and make a point.
1) You're not even a pro-user of English. "Disk" in parentheses is a clue.
2) A pro-user would use the term SSD. You might even refer to the types of interconnects and protocols used if trying to make a valid argument as to why Apple has failed you over other OEMs*.
* OEM refers to an Original Equipment Manufacturer.
I know what it means. I also know that you put it that way to make an implication that didn't exist. I know the difference in a solid state drive and a hard disk drive. Had I been confused or wished to refer to a traditional spinning magnetic disk drive, I would have done so without the parenthesis.
I do sometimes use SSD if I'm trying to make a distinction. But if you say 'hard drive', everyone know what you're talking about unless the nature of the conversation requires more specificity.
Comments
And I've replaced hard drives on laptops a handful of times. Once because the old one was going bad, once because the person wanted more drive capacity. It's a normal DIY thing to be able to do.
No one's asking for the ability to change out the processor or put in a new fan assembly. We know these aren't build-it-yourself towers. But if you're going to take away a capability from me that can significantly save me time and money, you'd better be delivering a huge tangible benefit in return. But they aren't. So it comes off as a money grab and not caring about your customers.
The potential for SSD failure also hasn't bothered me because I know I can replace them in my current machines (my mid-2011 Mac Mini has two SSDs, my early-2011 MBP has one SSD and a HDD as I yanked out the seldom-used optical drive). If these new machines have SSDs that will last me at least 5-6 years, then I'll calm down (and probably throw Apple a bunch of my money).
Thanks...
The failure rate on hard drives over the connector to make it removable is minimal. Far lower than the failure rate of actual hard drives themselves. This is a bullshit argument.
The price difference in high quality drives from Samsung, Crucial or OWC and "crappy 3rd party crap" isn't enough to make the vast majority of people who would undertake this buy the crap part.
Apple has basically delivered infinitesimally small benefit to the user with this setup while taking real, practical benefits they previously had away. And the only way around it is to pay for inflatedly priced upgrades on the front end...which still doesn't help you if the part goes bad.
There is a healthy aftermarket trade for upgrades to some machines.
Am I right in thinking that, should these soldered on drives suffer some kind of failure, the entire motherboard will need replacing?
2) A pro-user would use the term SSD. You might even refer to the types of interconnects and protocols used if trying to make a valid argument as to why Apple has failed you over other OEMs*.
* OEM refers to an Original Equipment Manufacturer.
Its these old school so called "Professionals" that don't want to work in the 21st century that are bitching about this.
http://appleinsider.com/articles/16/11/02/phil-schiller-new-macbook-pro-has-more-orders-from-apple-than-any-other-pro-model-ever
There was a time when the unified motherboard architecture at Apple meant that the only real differentiator between different models in the same line was processor, RAM and storage.
Ever since the marketers took control, everything is designed to get you to pay more.
But the thing is...how many people actually do this on average? 1%? 5%? Apple isn't going to engineer a MacBook Pro for the 1-5% that "may" end up replacing/upgrading their own flash storage. If you didn't notice, this has been coming for quite some time. With nearly every new major Mac release you're seeing this. Yet, people still buy these. So its quite obvious the majority don't care whether or not they can pop the bottom panel off and replace RAM, storage, etc. As I've said, this is old school thinking and its simply isn't necessary in today's world. There are other ways and other places to store your things should you need more space.
Death to technical discourse!
I do sometimes use SSD if I'm trying to make a distinction. But if you say 'hard drive', everyone know what you're talking about unless the nature of the conversation requires more specificity.
Don't be a dick.