iMac Pro cost blows away similar Lenovo workstation, DIY builders struggle to meet price w...

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  • Reply 21 of 129
    BittySon said:
    It would be a great Pro machine if it has at least some user-accessible/replaceable components, and not just RAM.  Any word on this?
    I'd heard that we have to buy an iMac Pro in a specific configuration and that's the way it has to stay until you sell it or dump it.  As near as I can tell there are no user-upgradeable components on an iMac Pro (there's definitely no memory access door as on standard iMacs).  If we get lucky, maybe there will be authorized companies who will offer to do iMac upgrades as time goes by.  I don't need an iMac Pro but I definitely want one.  It will do all that I need with plenty of room to spare for years to come.  I like to think long-term.
  • Reply 22 of 129
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 6,922administrator
    johnbear said:
    back in december I built a hackintosh that was 30% faster in FCPX then the best they had at BestBuy which I tested, and considerably cheaper. The downside of a hackintosh is that it takes a little more time in maintenance and requires a little more research to build and understand how it works. The good things are that it's cheaper if you know what you are doing (obviously people who wrote this article dont know much about this stuff), and perhaps the most important is that you can freaking upgrade everything you want when you want, don't have to get stuck with whatever configuration you get when you buy a real mac (it's a pain to ugpgrade a mac if there is still something upgradable in these machines these days)
    The assumption is incorrect. I've built four Hackintoshes, and more than 20 PCs from parts over the last two decades plus.

    I've also replaced the processors on several Mac Pros including the 2013, the first run of Mac mins, and few different iMacs. I've built a beowulf cluster out of 41 beige G3 motherboards and processors in 2004, and other things that remain classified with off-the-shelf components.

    But hey- you want to pick some parts that get you close to the iMac Pro and cut some corners? Go crazy.
    edited June 2017 StrangeDaysrotateleftbyteroundaboutnowrob53watto_cobracornchipfallenjtpatchythepirateargonautdocno42
  • Reply 23 of 129
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 6,922administrator

    It's unacceptable that I can't buy a space grey version of the wireless keyboard with numpad unless I also buy a $5,000 computer to go along with it.

    I recently speced out a computer build for a friend, and this was the first time I'd done it in years. I remain confused about the tiers of PSU efficiency/quality. There's bronze, silver, gold, platinum, and titanium, which I think is supposed to be better than platinum. But then there are different tiers even within the same efficiency ratings. For example, you see both "platinum 80+" and "bronze 90+". Actually, I rarely saw anything above 80+… Leave it to Apple to keep pushing the boundaries of efficiency. I think the tech sheet for the tower Mac Pro listed it at 88%. I'll have to check.
    86-89 percent, depending on model.

    I'm with you on the keyboard with num-pad.
  • Reply 24 of 129
    tallest skiltallest skil Posts: 43,388member
    Blunt said:
    Like the new HomePod. Judging on price before even knowing how it sounds and how it's build. Stupid.
    Has anyone mentioned it’s the same price as the iPod Hi-Fi? How far we’ve come.

    All this smart home connected stuff seems really interesting to me, but I’d have to swap basically everything I own to take advantage of it, and such purchases aren’t something to be done on a whim. If I ever get this home addition built, I’ll be sure to look for AirPlay 2 speakers and a connected garage door and what have you, but I don’t see myself replacing anything I own until it breaks.
    baconstangSpamSandwich
  • Reply 25 of 129
    boltsfan17boltsfan17 Posts: 2,294member
    Yeah and 2 years down the line I will need to drop another $5000 to be able to get the iMac to match anything current, whereas with my Lenovo, or my custom build, I will spend a few hundred dollars to update it to the latest, and be well ahead of what the iMac does.

    Also, this device is coming in December! That's a lifetime in PCs. Let's compare prices when it arrives.

    Finally, let's actually wait for iMac Pro benchmarks, because I suspect the inevitable throttling is not gonna make all those CPUs look so good.

    IOW, I will be impressed if Apple releases similar pricing on the Mac Pro.
    Are you just buying computers to get a hard on from benchmark scores? If you buy a $5K iMac Pro, it's going to last you years and you will still be able to run any software fine. 
    edited June 2017 StrangeDayswilliamlondonroundaboutnowmacxpresschiamagman1979watto_cobraargonaut
  • Reply 26 of 129
    tipootipoo Posts: 1,158member
    Yep. I see pages of scattered comments on some sites about machines at half the price doing what this can, but no one provides the build list to back it up. 


    Particularly as their 2x wide AVX instructions slide from the keynote means AVX-512, only available in future Skylake EP Xeons. Vega is also not availble yet, so even allowing a regression there, no one can match the build price with an 8C Xeon, 5K monitor, and ECC RAM. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 27 of 129
    schlackschlack Posts: 726member
    BittySon said:
    It would be a great Pro machine if it has at least some user-accessible/replaceable components, and not just RAM.  Any word on this?
    My initial thought was to agree. But...in a corporate environment, and this is the case for where I work, our IT department prefers to fully replace our machines (currently maxed out Macbook Pros) ever 3 yrs. They view the disruption of a possible hardware failure (which becomes more likely with time) and the value of a faster newer machine outweighs the costs. That surprised me, but appears to be normal practice. So....there's probably a large segment of Pro users where upgradability just doesn't matter anymore. Instead it's buy a machine, use it for ~3 yrs, and then buy a new machine.
  • Reply 28 of 129
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,475member
    The downside of the "equally matched" PC is you're stuck with Windows.
    One of my customers have been working in huge projects with Autodesk Revit in Windows and Dell Precision for years, with no issues at all.  And I'm sure many other users have the  same experience.  Can you give details on why using Windows is a downside?
    xzu
  • Reply 29 of 129
    fathergllfathergll Posts: 11member
    macxpress said:
    They also think this iMac is going to melt down once you get that 18-core Xeon with the high end AMD Vega card going at full steam for any length of time like Apple isn't testing for such a thing. Apple is not going to purposely release something like this knowing its going to overheat and not be very efficient. Its quite obvious they built a specialized cooling system for this iMac Pro. 

    Don't be so sure until people get them into their homes and use them for real. It's naive to assume companies are releasing products for reliability, they are releasing them for profits which means pushing the boundaries of engineering.

     Lets wind the clocks back to Fall 2014. Apple makes a major move and completely surprises everyone with a 5k Retina iMac.Immediate concerns from some was going to be thermal issues with an all-in-one trying to push that resolution. The exact same thing was utter from multiple people back in 2014 "Apple is not going to purposely release something like this knowing its going to overheat". Guess what they did have major thermal issues reaching temps over 200F. Fans would runs extremely loud, throttling would take place killing performance, and down the road users reported issues the the monitor because of the extreme heat. I bought a 5k iMac at the time with the cooler running 2GB video card because of all the heat issues that were reported.

    Thats not to say this iMac Pro will have these issues but don't assume they won't because Apple is aware of the challenges of thermal cooling in an all-in-one. It's a new product and as such they may end up having major recalls at some point. No one on earth actually knows how these things will fare long term. It seems that Apple has taken the right step with the thermal design but I want to see some real world numbers before declaring a product that isn't even close to being shipped a homerun.
    edited June 2017 cornchipxzu
  • Reply 30 of 129
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 13,085member
    BittySon said:
    It would be a great Pro machine if it has at least some user-accessible/replaceable components, and not just RAM.  Any word on this?
    Nope. Pro machine use cases intrinsically have nothing to do with DIY tinkering use cases. I'm a pro -- I don't want to spend my time upgrading storage inside my machine's case. In fact, I never have (tho I have added large external storage drives). I want to use my work horse until I can't anymore, and by that time nearly all of it will be worth an update, meaning a complete new machine. I can get by 5-6 years on a properly loaded machine.
    williamlondonrotateleftbytetmayjkichlinewatto_cobra
  • Reply 31 of 129
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 13,085member

    Yeah and 2 years down the line I will need to drop another $5000 to be able to get the iMac to match anything current, whereas with my Lenovo, or my custom build, I will spend a few hundred dollars to update it to the latest, and be well ahead of what the iMac does.

    First off, DIY builds don't include support, so you can't even compare that.

    Second, why exactly would you need to replace your iMac Pro two years later? What exactly are you doing with it that the lifespan is so short? I know my use case isn't as demanding as some, but as an enterprise software engineer my iMac and MBPs have lasted half a decade (current iMac is 6 years). They're fast and still quite capable for running VMs, databases, and builds. 
    edited June 2017 williamlondonwatto_cobradocno42
  • Reply 32 of 129
    yonis said:
    Here's my attempt:
    https://pcpartpicker.com/list/CcC3QV

    Couple of tradeoffs I needed to make:
    1. Workstation graphics inflate cost tremendously, so I replaced with 2 1080 Tis in SLI. They're good at different things, but I figure doubling up on the 1080 Tis would more or less make up the difference.
    2. Thunderbolt 3 isn't necessary if you have PCI Express.
    Uh, you forgot a case, keyboard, and mouse.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 33 of 129
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 13,085member
    fathergll said:
    macxpress said:
    They also think this iMac is going to melt down once you get that 18-core Xeon with the high end AMD Vega card going at full steam for any length of time like Apple isn't testing for such a thing. Apple is not going to purposely release something like this knowing its going to overheat and not be very efficient. Its quite obvious they built a specialized cooling system for this iMac Pro. 

    Don't be so sure until people get them into their homes and use them for real. It's naive to assume companies are releasing products for reliability, they are releasing them for profits which means pushing the boundaries of engineering.

     Lets wind the clocks back to Fall 2014. Apple makes a major move and completely surprises everyone with a 5k Retina iMac.Immediate concerns from some was going to be thermal issues with an all-in-one trying to push that resolution. The exact same thing was utter from multiple people back in 2014 "Apple is not going to purposely release something like this knowing its going to overheat". Guess what they did have major thermal issues reaching temps over 200F. Fans would runs extremely loud, throttling would take place killing performance, and down the road users reported issues the the monitor because of the extreme heat. I bought a 5k iMac at the time with the cooler running 2GB video card because of all the heat issues that were reported.

    Thats not to say this iMac Pro will have these issues but don't assume they won't because Apple is aware of the challenges of thermal cooling in an all-in-one. It's a new product and as such they may end up having major recalls at some point. No one on earth actually knows how these things will fare long term. It seems that Apple has taken the right step with the thermal design but I want to see some real world numbers before declaring a product that isn't even close to being shipped a homerun.
    Product recalls? What? What other Macs in recent history have had recalls to suggest they may have to do a recall on the iMac Pro? Did they do recalls for the 5K iMac? I haven't heard of the heat problems with it. 
    williamlondonwatto_cobraargonaut
  • Reply 34 of 129
    farmboyfarmboy Posts: 152member
    BittySon said:
    It would be a great Pro machine if it has at least some user-accessible/replaceable components, and not just RAM.  Any word on this?
    Rest assured, the Mac Pro will be highly customizable. That's not the domain of the iMac Pro and the iMac. Those are meant to be plug and play, with all the customization happening up front during the ordering process, not so much after.
    Agreed. I'm never sure why this is such a consistent problem for some people. Out of the box they do almost anything you could want. If they're not what you want you know what the configuration is beforehand. We use a few 2012 27"ers and they're just flawless at everything we throw at them. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 35 of 129
    fathergllfathergll Posts: 11member
    The downside of the "equally matched" PC is you're stuck with Windows.


    True but then you would have Cuda and NVIDIA. High End companies that created software for multiple platforms like Adobe, Autodesk, Blackmagic, AVID, The Foundry will all work better on NVIDIA and CUDA. Apple isn't producing as much high end software as before Aperture, Shake, Logic Pro and Final Cut lost a lot of it's market share. In otherwords how much software actually works better on OSX in 2017? Even if OSX is a bug free OS(Which it's not) the software may still not perform as good as on Windows.

    The real issue is Apple is a 750 billion dollar tech company who makes most of their money from cell phones and their resources are focused on that segment compared to years ago.




    edited June 2017 williamlondonjohnbearsingularityxzu
  • Reply 36 of 129
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 6,922administrator
    fathergll said:
    The downside of the "equally matched" PC is you're stuck with Windows.


    True but then you would have Cuda and NVIDIA. High End companies that created software for multiple platforms like Adobe, Autodesk, Blackmagic, AVID, The Foundry will all work better on NVIDIA and CUDA. Apple isn't producing as much high end software as before Aperture, Shake, Logic Pro and Final Cut lost a lot of it's market share. In otherwords how much software actually works better on OSX in 2017? Even if OSX is a bug free OS(Which it's not) the software may still not perform as good as on Windows.

    The real issue is Apple is a 750 billion dollar tech company who makes most of their money from cell phones and their resources are focused on that segment compared to years ago.




    CUDA is available for macOS, from the same source as Windows -- Nvidia.
    edited June 2017 watto_cobra
  • Reply 37 of 129
    AlticusAlticus Posts: 1unconfirmed, member
    macxpress said:
    Oh the hackintosh and Windows fanboys are all over this new iMac Pro and how they can supposedly make their own cheaper. Of course, its not a true comparison when they quote Kingston Value RAM, a standard SATA SSD, and a no so great 4K display. They also think this iMac is going to melt down once you get that 18-core Xeon with the high end AMD Vega card going at full steam for any length of time like Apple isn't testing for such a thing. Apple is not going to purposely release something like this knowing its going to overheat and not be very efficient. Its quite obvious they built a specialized cooling system for this iMac Pro. 

    As expensive as this is, its an excellent value for those who really need something like this. I've always found that Apple's really high end stuff is actually a great value. So while people like to complain about the supposed "Apple Tax" on regular consumer Macs, the high end products are a great value a large majority of the time. 
    You realize one of the biggest known issues with the current Mac Pro was the video cards die very frequently due to overheating in that enclosure right? It's a known issue on the forums, amongst the faithful few who purchased that device, as well as a documented known issue for Apple support. So much so in fact that if the video card is the issue they will service your machine even if you don't have AppleCare. I mean I agree with this article and I think this new iMac Pro will provide great value - but stating that Apple is not going to ship a computer with heat problems negate the historical realities of products they have shipped in the past.
    fathergllwilliamlondonjohnbearcornchipwelshdogargonautxzu
  • Reply 38 of 129
    rotateleftbyterotateleftbyte Posts: 1,630member
    Yeah and 2 years down the line I will need to drop another $5000 to be able to get the iMac to match anything current, whereas with my Lenovo, or my custom build, I will spend a few hundred dollars to update it to the latest, and be well ahead of what the iMac does.

    Also, this device is coming in December! That's a lifetime in PCs. Let's compare prices when it arrives.

    Finally, let's actually wait for iMac Pro benchmarks, because I suspect the inevitable throttling is not gonna make all those CPUs look so good.

    IOW, I will be impressed if Apple releases similar pricing on the Mac Pro.
    more than a few hundred dollars. For one, the CPU socket will have changed so that means a new Motheboard which will have different ports/sockets so you may need new RAM and new storage and new peripherals.
    Upgrading is not that simple these days.

    Don't forget that you will probable be able to sell your iMac Pro for a decent wad of cash. Your homebrew system? Scrap value really.
    tmayroundaboutnowchiawatto_cobracornchipargonaut
  • Reply 39 of 129
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 6,922administrator
    Alticus said:
    macxpress said:
    Oh the hackintosh and Windows fanboys are all over this new iMac Pro and how they can supposedly make their own cheaper. Of course, its not a true comparison when they quote Kingston Value RAM, a standard SATA SSD, and a no so great 4K display. They also think this iMac is going to melt down once you get that 18-core Xeon with the high end AMD Vega card going at full steam for any length of time like Apple isn't testing for such a thing. Apple is not going to purposely release something like this knowing its going to overheat and not be very efficient. Its quite obvious they built a specialized cooling system for this iMac Pro. 

    As expensive as this is, its an excellent value for those who really need something like this. I've always found that Apple's really high end stuff is actually a great value. So while people like to complain about the supposed "Apple Tax" on regular consumer Macs, the high end products are a great value a large majority of the time. 
    You realize one of the biggest known issues with the current Mac Pro was the video cards die very frequently due to overheating in that enclosure right? It's a known issue on the forums, amongst the faithful few who purchased that device, as well as a documented known issue for Apple support. So much so in fact that if the video card is the issue they will service your machine even if you don't have AppleCare. I mean I agree with this article and I think this new iMac Pro will provide great value - but stating that Apple is not going to ship a computer with heat problems negate the historical realities of products they have shipped in the past.
    There is no active REA or recall for the 2013 Mac Pro video card. There are informal programs for people that experienced a problem and had it documented while covered by AppleCare or who sought help in the first year of ownership.
    roundaboutnowwatto_cobra
  • Reply 40 of 129
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 6,922administrator

    danvm said:
    The downside of the "equally matched" PC is you're stuck with Windows.
    One of my customers have been working in huge projects with Autodesk Revit in Windows and Dell Precision for years, with no issues at all.  And I'm sure many other users have the  same experience.  Can you give details on why using Windows is a downside?
    Ask the Windows users if they want to go to macOS. See if they think that's a downside.
    SpamSandwichwilliamlondonchiawatto_cobracornchip
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