Review: 2017 MacBook Pro fulfills the promise of the line's redesign

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  • Reply 81 of 175
    nhtnht Posts: 4,429member
    avon b7 said:
    nht said:
    avon b7 said:
    Notsofast said:
    Judging by the successful sales increase, Apple got it right again.
    Have you see the numbers broken down? If you have the new MBP sales figures for the last two quarters, please share. 

    If you are referring to the Q1 increase, the most notable reference on those sales was that most of them went to non-Mac users.
    More BS FUD. Apple doesn't do model breakdowns but it's clear from their Q2 report that sales increased 4% and revenue 14% with much higher ASPs driven by the MBP which costs more. Given no other new models in Q2 to drive sales your continued FUD is both tiresome and idiotic.
    BS?
    FUD?

    No.

    A simple opinion. Live with it and if you actually have any numbers, provide them.

    Apple doesn't do model breakdowns? Wow ! Ever wondered why all this is speculation?

    It is FUD to claim that MBP sales were poor in Q2 which is what you continue to do. 
    nht said:
    avon b7 said: 

    We have now had two earnings calls post MBP re-design, and very little reference to sales. Schiller came out beating his chest in the first week of release. Then he went silent. Cook described sales as simply 'strong' and now we have one of the fastest refreshes in living memory. 
    You are lying because this has been pointed out to you in the past:

    "Next I'd like to talk about the Mac. Revenue was up 14% year over and set a new March quarter record. We sold 4.2 million Macs, up 4% over last year, compared to zero growth in the PC market, according to IDC's latest forecast. Demand for MacBook Pro was very strong, helping to drive overall portables growth of 10 %, twice the growth of the portables market. We ended the quarter at the low end of our four to five week target range for Mac channel inventory."

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/seekingalpha.com/amp/article/4068153-apple-aapl-q2-2017-results-earnings-call-transcript

    Lying? Nope.

    Point out all you want but I still haven't seen any.numbers for the new MBP. When you actually have some, please feel free to post them. I said they probably didn't break any records and TC himself described sales as strong.  Where is the lie?
    Lying yes.  Directly in the quote of the earnings call they provide numbers:
    • Mac Revenue was up 14% year over and set a new March quarter record. 
    • Mac unit sales were up 4% over last year
    • Demand for MacBook Pro was very strong, helping to drive overall portables growth of 10 %
    It is complete BS that because you don't like these numbers that you claim that they don't exist.

    MBP sales were very good and went beyond the initial "pent up demand" phase into the next quarter.
    pscooter63williamlondonadaeon
  • Reply 82 of 175
    nhtnht Posts: 4,429member
    "Battery technology has improved to a point where the battery will continue to operate in the machines foreseeable useful lifecycle."

    And that's part of the trouble with the "Glued and soldered together" design:   Planned Obsolescence.
    If the product's expected life is short enough (use it 3-5 years then discard and buy new), then yes, a battery can perform for the life of the unit.

    Some of us expect and demand a longer life out of our electronics.   I am currently using a 10-12 year old IBM Thinkpad that, after a number of upgrades (including a battery), functions perfectly.  Why should I not expect the same performance out of a Mac?  
    Because nobody cares about customers that replace computers once every decade.

    12 years ago there was no iPhone. 12 years ago Macs weren't Intel yet.  Apple stopped supporting PPC macs with Leopard (i.e. PPC support ended in 2009 with the launch of Snow Leopard).  None of the 10 year old macs is supported by MacOS after 10.11.

    Solipscooter63sphericwilliamlondonadaeon
  • Reply 83 of 175
    SoliSoli Posts: 8,748member
    Rayz2016 said:
    mwhite said:
    avon b7 said:
    For me, everything starts with price. It doesn't matter how great something is if I can't afford it. One of the most absurd comments I've heard on the subject is to save for longer. Sigh.

    Next problem is what you get for the price. Again, it doesn't matter how great something is if you don't really need it. Some people love retina screens but I could get by easily with non retina. Same for soldered RAM/SSD. Once again, I could get by without the fastest options if flexibility were factored into the offer. The option to upgrade down the line is something I have always taken advantage of.

    Thinness? This is probably a Jony Ive obsession which I can easily live without if accessibility and longer battery life are the end result. The previous line was already thin. Having the battery glued to the upper casing is something I could also do without and after repeated use in different stores I still dislike the keyboard.

    Touch Bar and Touch ID? For the added cost that comes with it, I could easily do without both. At the end of the day they are convenience items. Nothing more.

    So what we have is an expensive (no other word for it) base system that could easily cost far less and which you have to BTO at current Apple pricing pushing the price even higher.

    I haven't bought a laptop for a few years now and my current upgraded Macs have new blood in them. I will not be buying into this line until prices come down and/or ugradeability is looked at with a new corporate perspective.

    People will say something stupid like 'Apple doesn't cater to me'. That is irrelevant. Apple caters to sales. It seems clear that new MBP sales didn't fly off the charts. There was pent up demand and that was quenched. We will see what Apple does in the future if sales flatten out. After many people claiming the MBA was eol, that wasn't the case. Just as it wasn't the case that anything not USB-C was 'legacy'. 

    Apple put itself into a pigeon hole. If people are willing to buy into the sealed up, glued in, BTO at purchase, short warranty, expensive laptop, that's their decision. Mine is to pass.

    The question is how many others pass or not. 


    Good that you pass you would not be happy with a Mac so go on to a different computer that won't last as long as a Apple computer. With Apple you get your money's worth.
    You could have stopped reading when he mentioned price as his main driver, above quality. What you're dealing with here is someone who is outside Apple's demographic and so would be much happier buying a  Dell machine. For some people, a superficial short-term saving is more important than longevity and build quality. 

    I've had one for a few months and I've noticed cracks around the keyboard housing. But it was much cheaper than the MacBook Pro that'll be replacing it as my main development machine. 


    Longevity?
    Being non-upgradable because its all glued & soldered together, MBPs are very short on longevity.  Actually, they fall more into the "planned obsolescence" realm...

    While they offer some great features -- particularly power combined with portability, longevity is a weak point rather than a strong point.
    Nonsense. You're pretending as if if non user upgradble means not serviceable. It doesn't. You'll be able to get it repaired for years to come if need be. 

    Apple gear has the longest useful lifespan with the highest resale values. That's the opposite of planned obsolescence inspires you theory nonsense. 
    You're dreaming...
    Apple generally cuts off service and support for both hardware and software after 4-5 years....
    ... Sorry, next?
    1) How does "4–5 years" negate his comment about "longest useful lifespan and highest resale values"?

    2a) It looks like High Sierra will support the same Macs that can support Sierra. That's going back to 2009, and since it's 2017 which will mean updates until 2018 with at least one point update for 10.13 after macOS 10.14 officially launches that means we're talking about a decade of OS support.

    http://www.macworld.com/article/3121239/macs/which-macs-can-run-macos-sierra.html

    2b) That's just the OS. Long after Apple was no longer supporting an old 2001 iMac it also got several years of iTunes updates, and several security updates.

    2c) Then there was the time I took it into the Apple Store when I first retrieved it. Long, long after the warranty was over they were happy to find a FW400 cable to reinstall its version of macOS nee Mac OS X because the ODD wouldn't open and the USB was still at 1.0.

    2d) I have a. family member with a 2nd-gen Apple TV that I bought her back in 2010 (she's waiting on getting the 5th gen and a UHDTV at the same time). It started having buffering issues when using AirPlay, then WiFi issues. At taht point it seemed like an AirPort Express issue in some regard, but then the Apple TV wouldn't turn on. Not having a micro-USB-B cable and being far from me I set up an Apple Store appt. for her—they really make it hard to find these days if you don't know the process so it's best to help others if you're in the know—they reimaged the Apple TV and tested it. This is device came out 8 years ago and only cost $99.

    So what's this about Apple cutting service and support?
    pscooter63sphericchiaadaeon
  • Reply 84 of 175
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 3,642member
    nht said:
    avon b7 said:
    nht said:
    avon b7 said:
    Notsofast said:
    Judging by the successful sales increase, Apple got it right again.
    Have you see the numbers broken down? If you have the new MBP sales figures for the last two quarters, please share. 

    If you are referring to the Q1 increase, the most notable reference on those sales was that most of them went to non-Mac users.
    More BS FUD. Apple doesn't do model breakdowns but it's clear from their Q2 report that sales increased 4% and revenue 14% with much higher ASPs driven by the MBP which costs more. Given no other new models in Q2 to drive sales your continued FUD is both tiresome and idiotic.
    BS?
    FUD?

    No.

    A simple opinion. Live with it and if you actually have any numbers, provide them.

    Apple doesn't do model breakdowns? Wow ! Ever wondered why all this is speculation?

    It is FUD to claim that MBP sales were poor in Q2 which is what you continue to do. 
    nht said:
    avon b7 said: 

    We have now had two earnings calls post MBP re-design, and very little reference to sales. Schiller came out beating his chest in the first week of release. Then he went silent. Cook described sales as simply 'strong' and now we have one of the fastest refreshes in living memory. 
    You are lying because this has been pointed out to you in the past:

    "Next I'd like to talk about the Mac. Revenue was up 14% year over and set a new March quarter record. We sold 4.2 million Macs, up 4% over last year, compared to zero growth in the PC market, according to IDC's latest forecast. Demand for MacBook Pro was very strong, helping to drive overall portables growth of 10 %, twice the growth of the portables market. We ended the quarter at the low end of our four to five week target range for Mac channel inventory."

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/seekingalpha.com/amp/article/4068153-apple-aapl-q2-2017-results-earnings-call-transcript

    Lying? Nope.

    Point out all you want but I still haven't seen any.numbers for the new MBP. When you actually have some, please feel free to post them. I said they probably didn't break any records and TC himself described sales as strong.  Where is the lie?
    Lying yes.  Directly in the quote of the earnings call they provide numbers:
    • Mac Revenue was up 14% year over and set a new March quarter record. 
    • Mac unit sales were up 4% over last year
    • Demand for MacBook Pro was very strong, helping to drive overall portables growth of 10 %
    It is complete BS that because you don't like these numbers that you claim that they don't exist.

    MBP sales were very good and went beyond the initial "pent up demand" phase into the next quarter.
    You are not putting anything new on the table. Just rehashing the same line. Tell me where I lied.

     Did I not reference TCs own words? Did I not make it clear enough that we don't have real numbers? Put some new MBP numbers into your claims if you have any. Of course you don't. 

    You are free to disagree but don't call what I say a lie or FUD unless you can back it up with something solid. Something you can't do because you are simply wrong. 

    I have explained my thinking without making accusations. If you are unable to do the same I suggest you keep your thoughts to yourself.
    edited June 2017
  • Reply 85 of 175
    eumaeuseumaeus Posts: 8member
    These threads are so valuable!

    i used to think Apple was doing okay until I realized that they are ignoring the valuable market of "guys who buy the cheapest possible generic computer with no regard for design or aesthetics, then never replace it sooner than eight years."

    Also, I see that because Schiller didn't dedicate 90 minutes to listing precisely how many of each model they sold, they must be hiding a terrible truth. I expect them to close and return the money to the shareholders any day now.

    /s

    Actually, I eagerly await the companion piece to this review, looking at the 13" model. I really hope AI gets numbers for the high-end model.
    williamlondonnhtchiaadaeon
  • Reply 86 of 175

    I have read all these comments about the Macbook Pro's redesign. Many like it. Many do not. Technically, it's a marvel but it is a limited machine. No way of upgrading the machine after purchase. I heard the MBP's design was based off of the Macbook which is a lower grade computer than the MBP. The Macbook "Pro" is just glorified Macbook with a "Pro" designation. That I feel is the incorrect thought process. The Macbook Pro should be based off of the Macbook Pro not a lower grade machine then tack on the "Pro" label on it. That is a misrepresentation of this computer. Basically a con job by Apple. This allows Apple to raise the prices because it has a "Pro" attached to it's name. "Pro" machines are machines that can be upgraded by it's owner if necessary. Professional computer users have a budget! Apple thinks the "pros" have an unlimited supply of money so it is okay for them to build the MBP as a throwaway appliance. An expensive appliance. Apple is actually taking it's customers for a ride. I am sorry I will not be taking that ride with the Apple zealots. I do not care what the Apple fanatics say or how they try to insult my point of view. I have owned Apple products for at least 20 years or so and I will not be anymore. Apple has changed too much. The pro market is not represented by them. Watch out for this iPad "Pro." It looks like the same formula as the MBP. Disappointing behavior Apple.
    You need to check your facts. 

    "I heard the MBP's design was based off of the Macbook which is a lower grade computer than the MBP." -- this is totally false. The chassis was engineered with techniques developed for the MacBook, but that's the beginning and end of it.

    ""Pro" machines are machines that can be upgraded by it's owner if necessary." -- It may be your definition, but it's not a good one.

    By all means. If Apple isn't doing what you need it to do, then get what does. Your chain of thought is disjointed, though, and makes a lot of assumptions about intent that aren't accurate.
    Let's take this rebuttal point by point. The MBP design was based off of the Macbook. The chassis was engineered with techniques developed for the Macbook... You are agreeing with me but... I do not understand why you did not finish your thought.

    My "Pro" machine machine definition was not a good one for you. What is a good one.

    My assumptions are what I have observed Apple do over the years. If these assumptions are not accurate please inform me or is my chain of thought too disjointed for you.

    At least you did not use profanity to express yourself. Thank you for that.  
  • Reply 87 of 175
    nhtnht Posts: 4,429member
    avon b7 said:

    You are free to disagree but don't call what I say a lie or FUD unless you can back it up with something solid. Something you can't do because you are simply wrong. 

    I have explained my thinking without making accusations. If you are unable to do the same I suggest you keep your thoughts to yourself.
    I call what you write FUD because claiming that MBP sales were poor when Apple has repeatedly said has been selling well is FUD and a lie.  If you don't like it too bad.

    This isn't "disagreement" with opinion but correcting a troll spouting untruths about MBP sales. 
    williamlondon
  • Reply 88 of 175
    lorin schultzlorin schultz Posts: 2,666member
    eumaeus said:
    [...] i used to think Apple was doing okay until I realized that they are ignoring the valuable market of "guys who buy the cheapest possible generic computer with no regard for design or aesthetics, then never replace it sooner than eight years."
    There's another category, one into which I sometimes fall:

    "Guys who buy the absolute top--of-the-line Mac with every available option, then cling to it for years because it cost as much as a late-model Buick and boy howdy I better get my money's worth out of this thing."

    That's not really the whole story, though. Sometimes I've hung on to an older device because Apple stopped offering a feature I really like in newer models, so I hang on to the older one to retain that feature. The large screen on the 17" MacBook Pro was an example of that.
  • Reply 89 of 175
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 4,413administrator

    I have read all these comments about the Macbook Pro's redesign. Many like it. Many do not. Technically, it's a marvel but it is a limited machine. No way of upgrading the machine after purchase. I heard the MBP's design was based off of the Macbook which is a lower grade computer than the MBP. The Macbook "Pro" is just glorified Macbook with a "Pro" designation. That I feel is the incorrect thought process. The Macbook Pro should be based off of the Macbook Pro not a lower grade machine then tack on the "Pro" label on it. That is a misrepresentation of this computer. Basically a con job by Apple. This allows Apple to raise the prices because it has a "Pro" attached to it's name. "Pro" machines are machines that can be upgraded by it's owner if necessary. Professional computer users have a budget! Apple thinks the "pros" have an unlimited supply of money so it is okay for them to build the MBP as a throwaway appliance. An expensive appliance. Apple is actually taking it's customers for a ride. I am sorry I will not be taking that ride with the Apple zealots. I do not care what the Apple fanatics say or how they try to insult my point of view. I have owned Apple products for at least 20 years or so and I will not be anymore. Apple has changed too much. The pro market is not represented by them. Watch out for this iPad "Pro." It looks like the same formula as the MBP. Disappointing behavior Apple.
    You need to check your facts. 

    "I heard the MBP's design was based off of the Macbook which is a lower grade computer than the MBP." -- this is totally false. The chassis was engineered with techniques developed for the MacBook, but that's the beginning and end of it.

    ""Pro" machines are machines that can be upgraded by it's owner if necessary." -- It may be your definition, but it's not a good one.

    By all means. If Apple isn't doing what you need it to do, then get what does. Your chain of thought is disjointed, though, and makes a lot of assumptions about intent that aren't accurate.
    Let's take this rebuttal point by point. The MBP design was based off of the Macbook. The chassis was engineered with techniques developed for the Macbook... You are agreeing with me but... I do not understand why you did not finish your thought.

    My "Pro" machine machine definition was not a good one for you. What is a good one.

    My assumptions are what I have observed Apple do over the years. If these assumptions are not accurate please inform me or is my chain of thought too disjointed for you.

    At least you did not use profanity to express yourself. Thank you for that.  
    I never curse. On the forums, anyway. And, I was in the military for about a decade, so I can untangle just about everything.

    "Chassis developed based off techniques developed for the MacBook" I thought was relatively self-explanatory -- and I am not agreeing with your assumption about something you heard. The techniques involved are aluminum milling and casting. That has zero to do with motherboard design, and the electronics associated with it. In no way is the MBP just an amped-up MacBook, and that's really obvious.

    How does "Pro" mean "I can upgrade it?" "Pro" seems to me to mean "I can make money, efficiently" with this. MBP owners can move data at 40GBps. Not just from one port, but either two or four, depending on model. Retina display. You name it.

    Go back a page or two and look at my post regarding repairability and service numbers. Take a look at that.

    Your train of thought is that the machine isn't upgradeable, so Apple is taking its users for a ride (somehow) with machines that actually need service less often. Plus somehow, 20 years of Apple products somehow entitles you to a machine you like. That's the disjointed part.

    Like I've said like five times in this conversation. I'd like socketed processors, and RAM, and socketed NVMe. Hell, after work tonight, I'm going to put in dual six-core processors in a 5,1 Mac Pro for fun. Most readers of AI want these kinds of things. We are one percent of 12 percent of Apple's market.

    We're not Apple's target market anymore, and Apple doesn't owe us anything for loyalty.

    A tool is a tool. If Apple's not the right one for you, then tell them as best as you can, and move on. Just be sure that your justification is appropriate and based on facts -- you owe that to yourself.
    edited June 2017 williamlondonchiaadaeon
  • Reply 90 of 175
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 3,642member
    nht said:
    avon b7 said:

    You are free to disagree but don't call what I say a lie or FUD unless you can back it up with something solid. Something you can't do because you are simply wrong. 

    I have explained my thinking without making accusations. If you are unable to do the same I suggest you keep your thoughts to yourself.
    I call what you write FUD because claiming that MBP sales were poor when Apple has repeatedly said has been selling well is FUD and a lie.  If you don't like it too bad.

    This isn't "disagreement" with opinion but correcting a troll spouting untruths about MBP sales. 
    So now you are in RDF mode. I'm still waiting for you to give the sales figures to back up your case against my 'lies' (which you obviously don't have) and for you to even tell me where I lied. That is nowhere to be seen.

    I suppose I will have to keep waiting.

    My, erm 'claims' have been laid out very clearly above. No lies or FUD. Just my opinion. I will repeat myself without using worthless accusations: Live with it or please put something on the table to back up what you are saying. 

    Would you prefer that I copy/paste exactly what I said instead of your interpretation of what I said?

    You know, because it's not me who is throwing accusations around.


  • Reply 91 of 175
    zoetmb said:
    mwhite said:
    avon b7 said:
    For me, everything starts with price. It doesn't matter how great something is if I can't afford it. One of the most absurd comments I've heard on the subject is to save for longer. Sigh.

    Next problem is what you get for the price. Again, it doesn't matter how great something is if you don't really need it. Some people love retina screens but I could get by easily with non retina. Same for soldered RAM/SSD. Once again, I could get by without the fastest options if flexibility were factored into the offer. The option to upgrade down the line is something I have always taken advantage of.

    Thinness? This is probably a Jony Ive obsession which I can easily live without if accessibility and longer battery life are the end result. The previous line was already thin. Having the battery glued to the upper casing is something I could also do without and after repeated use in different stores I still dislike the keyboard.

    Touch Bar and Touch ID? For the added cost that comes with it, I could easily do without both. At the end of the day they are convenience items. Nothing more.

    So what we have is an expensive (no other word for it) base system that could easily cost far less and which you have to BTO at current Apple pricing pushing the price even higher.

    I haven't bought a laptop for a few years now and my current upgraded Macs have new blood in them. I will not be buying into this line until prices come down and/or ugradeability is looked at with a new corporate perspective.

    People will say something stupid like 'Apple doesn't cater to me'. That is irrelevant. Apple caters to sales. It seems clear that new MBP sales didn't fly off the charts. There was pent up demand and that was quenched. We will see what Apple does in the future if sales flatten out. After many people claiming the MBA was eol, that wasn't the case. Just as it wasn't the case that anything not USB-C was 'legacy'. 

    Apple put itself into a pigeon hole. If people are willing to buy into the sealed up, glued in, BTO at purchase, short warranty, expensive laptop, that's their decision. Mine is to pass.

    The question is how many others pass or not. 


    Good that you pass you would not be happy with a Mac so go on to a different computer that won't last as long as a Apple computer. With Apple you get your money's worth.
    My previous MBP lasted 8 years and was far less expensive, even adjusting for inflation, so I'm not sure we are getting our money's worth (I did buy the late 2016 MBP, but I was very pissed at the high price.)   There is no question that Apple is ripping us off on the SSD storage costs and I'm with those who think these machines should have removable storage, memory and battery.    There is absolutely no reason why Apple couldn't have used standard SSD modules that were on a plug.  None.  (Except greed).    Is anyone really going to maintain that the best way to build a machine is with a lot of glue?  Really?  

    Without being able to upgrade memory and storage and change the battery, the machines don't "last as long" in terms of useful life and it belies Apple's commitment to being green, since the machines will wind up in the trash faster.    (I went to a recycling fair recently and it was amazing what people were recycling:  hundreds of computers (maybe thousands), both Macs and PCs).   The only reason my previous late-2008 MBP lasted so long is because I was able to upgrade memory and storage and replace the battery.    If that makes the machine a little thicker, so be it.   Apple's (Ive's?) obsession with thinness and no lines in the case as opposed to all else borders on mental illness, IMO.  It's like their obsession with the design of the iPhone which few people ever actually see because almost everyone keeps theirs in a case so it survives a fall.  

    Other than that, it is a very nice machine, but the touch pad is too large as part of my palms rest on it and sends the cursor to places I don't intend for it to go.  This has radically slowed down my typing and I don't sense that the larger pad has any advantages.    The touch pad drives me nuts and it's apparent to me that Apple did not test this larger touchpad with real users.   It is not a natural position to rest the palms outside of the touchpad.  Maybe Apple thinks that people type with their hands in the air without resting their palms.   I, for one, don't.   The TouchBar is almost worthless because your eyes don't naturally look there.  It might have been better if it had been located right at the top edge.   

    The switch to USB-C didn't bother me, except for losing magsafe.   Why people get so upset adding a dongle or adapter to a cable is strange to me.  Just make believe it was always part of the cable.   You can get adapters for as little as $4.    People defend Apple when there are complaints that an equipped machine is $3K, but then they complain about a $4 adapter or $10 cable?    Having said that, I do have one problem:   I have a USB cable that goes to a USB speaker system.   If I plug it in with the dongle attached, the system does not automatically switch to the speaker system.   If I pull the USB-C out and plug it back in to the Mac, it still doesn't switch.   But if I detach the USB-A from the adapter dongle and plug it back in to the adapter, it does switch.   It's a minor annoyance, but still an annoyance as it requires two actions instead of one.   
    I totally agree on the glued together laptop that is not upgradable.  That is perhaps the greatest thing stopping me from investing in a Mac.

    Phone technology is progressing so rapidly and they get used so hard and portability is such an inherent feature, that replacing a phone every few years is not a problem.   But, those conditions do not apply to a laptop - particularly one that cost 2, 3 or 4 times what a phone costs...

    How long is it since IBM made a laptop?   10, 12 years?   Well, the laptop I use for my finances (Thinkpad T60p) has the IBM logo on it and works pretty much perfectly...  It boots quickly, responds quickly, I just installed a second drive in it for backups, the keyboard is absolutely outstanding and its OS, apps and antivirus are current. Through the years I not only upgraded the memory but even the WiFi card to 811-n and, of course, replaced the battery.  I have thought about installing an SSD, but its quick enough now that I decided to save my money.  To me, that is quality.  A quality that Apple has never achieved (nor tried to achieve).

    I suspect that Apple, in its laptop line is valuing portability over functionality.  But, in my experience, most laptops are more stationary than mobile.
    Why do you define "Pro" as "user upgradable PC so you can keep patching for 10 years to avoid buying a new computer?" Apple said that they defined "Pro" as "high end hardware for customers who need to run a Pro application." These are fundamentally different definitions of Pro. I would argue that a 10 year old machine is way out of spec for modern software, and therefore not suitable for running Pro apps.
    williamlondonsphericcgWerkschiaadaeon
  • Reply 92 of 175
    SaberSaber Posts: 1member
    I ordered a  fully configured 2016 MBP within days of its release, but I canceled the order in the nick of time. However, this time, I carried through with the 2017 order, because my 12-inch MacBook (Gen 1) is already on its last leg and I needed a replacement. The keyboard has failing keys, the hinge is loose, and the battery will only last an hour or so. Apple has agreed to fix it under warranty, but it will take 2-weeks, and without a backup machine, I had little choice. So, I purchased the June 2017 15-MBP at nearly 5k, including AppleCare and tax. 

    In the past, I would be excited with a new Mac purchase, but not this time. For the price and features, the  'user experience' is lacking, and I expected more the company I once loved. Sadly, Apple has produced another watered down product, that will be obsolete once the ports become relevant. If it were not for the superior Mac OS, I would have purchased the new 2017 Microsoft Surface Pro.

    Apple consumer since 1983 ~

    edited June 2017 williamlondonavon b7
  • Reply 93 of 175

    I have read all these comments about the Macbook Pro's redesign. Many like it. Many do not. Technically, it's a marvel but it is a limited machine. No way of upgrading the machine after purchase. I heard the MBP's design was based off of the Macbook which is a lower grade computer than the MBP. The Macbook "Pro" is just glorified Macbook with a "Pro" designation. That I feel is the incorrect thought process. The Macbook Pro should be based off of the Macbook Pro not a lower grade machine then tack on the "Pro" label on it. That is a misrepresentation of this computer. Basically a con job by Apple. This allows Apple to raise the prices because it has a "Pro" attached to it's name. "Pro" machines are machines that can be upgraded by it's owner if necessary. Professional computer users have a budget! Apple thinks the "pros" have an unlimited supply of money so it is okay for them to build the MBP as a throwaway appliance. An expensive appliance. Apple is actually taking it's customers for a ride. I am sorry I will not be taking that ride with the Apple zealots. I do not care what the Apple fanatics say or how they try to insult my point of view. I have owned Apple products for at least 20 years or so and I will not be anymore. Apple has changed too much. The pro market is not represented by them. Watch out for this iPad "Pro." It looks like the same formula as the MBP. Disappointing behavior Apple.
    You need to check your facts. 

    "I heard the MBP's design was based off of the Macbook which is a lower grade computer than the MBP." -- this is totally false. The chassis was engineered with techniques developed for the MacBook, but that's the beginning and end of it.

    ""Pro" machines are machines that can be upgraded by it's owner if necessary." -- It may be your definition, but it's not a good one.

    By all means. If Apple isn't doing what you need it to do, then get what does. Your chain of thought is disjointed, though, and makes a lot of assumptions about intent that aren't accurate.
    Let's take this rebuttal point by point. The MBP design was based off of the Macbook. The chassis was engineered with techniques developed for the Macbook... You are agreeing with me but... I do not understand why you did not finish your thought.

    My "Pro" machine machine definition was not a good one for you. What is a good one.

    My assumptions are what I have observed Apple do over the years. If these assumptions are not accurate please inform me or is my chain of thought too disjointed for you.

    At least you did not use profanity to express yourself. Thank you for that.  
    I never curse. On the forums, anyway. And, I was in the military for about a decade, so I can untangle just about everything.

    "Chassis developed based off techniques developed for the MacBook" I thought was relatively self-explanatory -- and I am not agreeing with your assumption about something you heard. The techniques involved are aluminum milling and casting. That has zero to do with motherboard design, and the electronics associated with it. In no way is the MBP just an amped-up MacBook, and that's really obvious.

    How does "Pro" mean "I can upgrade it?" "Pro" seems to me to mean "I can make money, efficiently" with this. MBP owners can move data at 40GBps. Not just from one port, but either two or four, depending on model. Retina display. You name it.

    Go back a page or two and look at my post regarding repairability and service numbers. Take a look at that.

    Your train of thought is that the machine isn't upgradeable, so Apple is taking its users for a ride (somehow) with machines that actually need service less often. Plus somehow, 20 years of Apple products somehow entitles you to a machine you like. That's the disjointed part.

    Like I've said like five times in this conversation. I'd like socketed processors, and RAM, and socketed NVMe. Hell, after work tonight, I'm going to put in dual six-core processors in a 5,1 Mac Pro for fun. Most readers of AI want these kinds of things. We are one percent of 12 percent of Apple's market.

    We're not Apple's target market anymore, and Apple doesn't owe us anything for loyalty.

    A tool is a tool. If Apple's not the right one for you, then tell them as best as you can, and move on. Just be sure that your justification is appropriate and based on facts -- you owe that to yourself.
    The chassis development of a any computer must consider motherboard design and the electronics associated with it. It is a total concept when a computer is being built.

    Apple defines "Pro" as "high end hardware for customers who need to run a Pro application." Apple used to make high end hardware that was more flexible and upgradeable.
    Apple has taken ability away. Apple forces it's customers to purchase a fully loaded machine when they 
    possibly do not need it. Apple sales encourages the customer to buy a maxed out machine because then you are future proofing your machine. I feel that's wrong. My needs were different because I needed to upgrade to more RAM than what Apple was configuring. 16GB RAM on the MBP, I was hoping for 32GB RAM if I needed it but no flexibility.

    We are Apple's target market because the Mac was not eliminated. Apple has not eliminated any "Pro" machines...as a matter of fact they keep adding more for example, iPad Pro and now the iMac Pro.  I am sure they added these devices because .... You know, I do not know. I guess I am too disjointed.  Do you know why?


    edited June 2017 williamlondon
  • Reply 94 of 175
    cgWerkscgWerks Posts: 2,078member
    Soli said:
    cgWerks said:
    Soli said:
    That’s a bunch of bullshit.
    How so?
    Let's see, you stated "because the SSDs are now so small." SSDs are clearly getting larger, not smaller, as you imply with your "now" statement. Additionally, Apple offers SSDs that are larger than any previous HDD they've ever shipping in a Mac notebook. The largest I'm seeing was a 5400RPM 1 TB HDD for a mid-2012 15" MacBook Pro. They also had a 7200 RPM option but it maxed out at 750 GB.

    When did Apple offer at least a 1TB SSD in their MBP? The next year. Even then, they had already offered 768GB SSDs before that. So when exactly did the SSDs become smaller?

    And don't try to say you're talking about desktop Macs now that I've mentioned Mac notebooks since you've clearly stated, "you pretty much have to have a separate 'server' machine where the Dropbox data is stored and synced," which means you can't reasonably have an external drive attached. Even then, you can get 3TB in an iMac.

    You also say "Dropbox has become almost useless […] and then carefully manage what gets excluded to these tiny-storage devices" which makes erroneous assumptions that everyone pays for additional Dropbox storage to get at least 1TB of cloud storage and everyone is using an excessive amount of cloud storage with Dropbox, as if all Macs used to all have much greater than 1TB+ HDDs before Apple moved to SSDs, despite the aforementioned options to 2TB, which is double what was ever offered in a previous Mac notebook.

    Ok, so I was talking in practical terms, on the whole. Yes, you can certainly spec-out a MacBook Pro, now, if you've got the money. My point is that with the move from hard drives to much less storage on SSD laptops (in general... yes, they are catching up on the high end), I've had to re-think my Dropbox usage and it's become much less useful. I can't just have 100 GB of stuff in Dropbox and let it sync to each machine, if some machines only have 128 GB SSDs.

    Again, I love SSDs and my comments weren't to fault Apple necessarily. I'm just a bit frustrated with the workflow adjustments of having far less main-drive storage than I had in the past, coupled with Dropbox wanting to be on the boot drive and having to sync everything stored there (ex: while I'd never trust the cloud, it would be cool to say, dump an archive of stock photo and video footage up to Dropbox so it's available to any machine, yet doesn't have to take up space on any of those machines).

    Does that make more sense?
  • Reply 95 of 175
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 4,413administrator

    I have read all these comments about the Macbook Pro's redesign. Many like it. Many do not. Technically, it's a marvel but it is a limited machine. No way of upgrading the machine after purchase. I heard the MBP's design was based off of the Macbook which is a lower grade computer than the MBP. The Macbook "Pro" is just glorified Macbook with a "Pro" designation. That I feel is the incorrect thought process. The Macbook Pro should be based off of the Macbook Pro not a lower grade machine then tack on the "Pro" label on it. That is a misrepresentation of this computer. Basically a con job by Apple. This allows Apple to raise the prices because it has a "Pro" attached to it's name. "Pro" machines are machines that can be upgraded by it's owner if necessary. Professional computer users have a budget! Apple thinks the "pros" have an unlimited supply of money so it is okay for them to build the MBP as a throwaway appliance. An expensive appliance. Apple is actually taking it's customers for a ride. I am sorry I will not be taking that ride with the Apple zealots. I do not care what the Apple fanatics say or how they try to insult my point of view. I have owned Apple products for at least 20 years or so and I will not be anymore. Apple has changed too much. The pro market is not represented by them. Watch out for this iPad "Pro." It looks like the same formula as the MBP. Disappointing behavior Apple.
    You need to check your facts. 

    "I heard the MBP's design was based off of the Macbook which is a lower grade computer than the MBP." -- this is totally false. The chassis was engineered with techniques developed for the MacBook, but that's the beginning and end of it.

    ""Pro" machines are machines that can be upgraded by it's owner if necessary." -- It may be your definition, but it's not a good one.

    By all means. If Apple isn't doing what you need it to do, then get what does. Your chain of thought is disjointed, though, and makes a lot of assumptions about intent that aren't accurate.
    Let's take this rebuttal point by point. The MBP design was based off of the Macbook. The chassis was engineered with techniques developed for the Macbook... You are agreeing with me but... I do not understand why you did not finish your thought.

    My "Pro" machine machine definition was not a good one for you. What is a good one.

    My assumptions are what I have observed Apple do over the years. If these assumptions are not accurate please inform me or is my chain of thought too disjointed for you.

    At least you did not use profanity to express yourself. Thank you for that.  
    I never curse. On the forums, anyway. And, I was in the military for about a decade, so I can untangle just about everything.

    "Chassis developed based off techniques developed for the MacBook" I thought was relatively self-explanatory -- and I am not agreeing with your assumption about something you heard. The techniques involved are aluminum milling and casting. That has zero to do with motherboard design, and the electronics associated with it. In no way is the MBP just an amped-up MacBook, and that's really obvious.

    How does "Pro" mean "I can upgrade it?" "Pro" seems to me to mean "I can make money, efficiently" with this. MBP owners can move data at 40GBps. Not just from one port, but either two or four, depending on model. Retina display. You name it.

    Go back a page or two and look at my post regarding repairability and service numbers. Take a look at that.

    Your train of thought is that the machine isn't upgradeable, so Apple is taking its users for a ride (somehow) with machines that actually need service less often. Plus somehow, 20 years of Apple products somehow entitles you to a machine you like. That's the disjointed part.

    Like I've said like five times in this conversation. I'd like socketed processors, and RAM, and socketed NVMe. Hell, after work tonight, I'm going to put in dual six-core processors in a 5,1 Mac Pro for fun. Most readers of AI want these kinds of things. We are one percent of 12 percent of Apple's market.

    We're not Apple's target market anymore, and Apple doesn't owe us anything for loyalty.

    A tool is a tool. If Apple's not the right one for you, then tell them as best as you can, and move on. Just be sure that your justification is appropriate and based on facts -- you owe that to yourself.
    The chassis development of a any computer must consider motherboard design and the electronics associated with it. It is a total concept when a computer is being built.

    Apple defines "Pro" as "high end hardware for customers who need to run a Pro application." Apple used to make high end hardware that was more flexible and upgradeable.
    Apple has taken ability away. Apple forces it's customers to purchase a fully loaded machine when they possibly do not need it. Apple sales encourages the customer to buy a maxed out machine because then you are future proofing your machine. I feel that's wrong. My needs were different because I needed to upgrade to more RAM than what Apple was configuring. 16GB RAM on the MBP, I was hoping for 32GB RAM if I needed it but no flexibility.

    We are Apple's target market because the Mac was not eliminated. Apple has not eliminated any "Pro" machines...as a matter of fact they keep adding more for example, iPad Pro and now the iMac Pro.  I am sure they added these devices because .... You know, I do not know. I guess I am too disjointed.  Do you know why?


    You keep playing fast and loose with actual facts. When they're presented to you, politely and without snark, you keep applying malicious intent where there is none.

    If you can't see the math behind one percent of 12 percent of Apple's sales meaning almost nothing to Apple, there's not much more I can help you out with, I'm afraid.

    If you think that learning a technique in to build one device and applying that same fabrication technique to another enclosure means the machines are the same, then I have to assume you're unwilling to actually have a conversation about it. I can build a bird house with a saw, a hammer, some nails, and some wood. That doesn't mean that's that's all I can build.

    Sorry you're dissatisfied, and think Apple's out to get you. It is what it is. Tell Apple you don't like it, then don't buy anything new. Be sure to tell them you've been buying Apple for 20 years, and won't anymore because the Intel Kaby Lake processor doesn't support 32GB of LPDDR3 RAM, and Apple doesn't want to shorten the battery life by hours to suit you. 

    Don't tell an Apple sales clerk. Tim Cook's customer service email address was [email protected] the last time I checked. Emails get responded to on occasion.

    If you can convince enough people to go along with you, maybe Apple will change direction.

    And yes, you're right. They are adding more Pro hardware with the iMac Pro and a new Mac Pro at some point. But you know what? There's still no easy way for us one percenters to upgrade the iMac Pro. They sealed and glued it up.

    And do you know why? I do. Because IBM, and Deloitte, and their corporate partners wanted it. They don't do upgrades. They toss computers on desks like appliances. Tell me again how we're Apple's target market.

    I'll be happy to continue this conversation if it's actually that. I'm concerned that you're not actually listening, though. 

    I get that you're not getting what you want. I just don't think you actually want to understand why.
    edited June 2017 williamlondonchiaadaeon
  • Reply 96 of 175
    cgWerkscgWerks Posts: 2,078member
    chasm said:

    He's a human rights advocate. He naturally aligns with at least one group of the oppressed, but he has repeatedly spoken out on behalf of oppressed groups he is not a member of, and human/civil rights generally. Human rights advocates are naturally going to focus on groups that are suffering oppression, but in fact they are arguing for equality, justice, and civil rights for all people. I would not call "humans" a tiny and "insignificant" percentage of the population: I would call that "all of" the population.
    ...
    If Apple "owes" anyone, it's their shareholders. They owe it to them (or at least the shareholders believe this) to keep growing, keep selling, keep designing things the public is fascinated by and keep positioning Apple as a "premium brand" ...
    Well, aside from the fact that he's adding funding (if we're talking about the same thing) to an insanely-well-funded advocacy group who are tending to actually oppress other's human rights who might be in disagreement with them, over what hasn't even been adequately argued to be a human right in the first place... but I digress.

    I think the point was that principals are more important than sheer numbers. While a company always owes their shareholders, they generally get more return for their shareholders by focusing on making the best stuff and user-experience. That is what got Apple to where the are now, not maximizing shareholder return!

    The reason some of us are critical of Apple now, is that we believe Apple is focusing on numbers and market-segments to the exclusion of some of their core principals of the past. We're worried they are going to chase fashion rather than fascination and become a trend rather than a premium brand. Or, they'll lose the brand identity of 'think different' and 'creatives and innovators' chasing after the Kardashians. And, should they succeed, one day they'll cease to be the flavor-of-the-month and suddenly their share-holders won't be so thrilled anymore.

    spheric said:

    Apple has never in its history sold a 13" laptop with a quad-core processor, ever. (Intel has never made a quad-core which would fit within the thermal envelope of Apple's 13" models - traditionally <30W, IIRC. They probably will at some point next year for the first time ever, according to their roadmap.)

    All 15" models have been entirely quad-core for many years now. 

    The keyboard on the current MacBooks Pro is the best I've ever used - except *maybe* the old ADB Extended Keyboard (I - for some reason I could never share the excitement over the EK II; it always seemed a tad rubbery to me) that I used from '89 to '95
    My bad on lack of clarity. I didn't mean the 13" MBP specifically, though I didn't realize there was never a 4 core option (but, I guess the 13" is newer and I'm used to 15" MBPs from my past). I was thinking of the whole line-up though, iMacs, minis, etc.

    I'm glad to hear that about the keyboard. As I said, I might get used to it and love it. I'm more concerned about all the reports of quality issues. I've used Apple laptops since my first PowerBook 100 and never had an issue with keyboards.

    ******

    BTW, is there a multi-quote across pages aside from going into 'code' mode and copy/paste?
    williamlondon
  • Reply 97 of 175
    SoliSoli Posts: 8,748member
    cgWerks said:
    BTW, is there a multi-quote across pages aside from going into 'code' mode and copy/paste?
    Not really. The easiest way is to hot Quote for the comment to which you will be responding, them hit the Return key a few times (or set up a shortcut that will do it for you), then hit the next Quote button, repeat the Returns.

    When you get to the end of a page his Save Draft, then go to the next page and you can add keep adding more Quotes. There is one caveat, If you're going to be quoting across multiple pages like that you'll have to add a couple Returns at the beginning of your comment window so the formatting doesn't get folded into what comment you have first. If you go in numerical order it means you'll be posting backwards in chunks, and if you try to go in reverse you have the reverse issue with comments from that page being in ascending order but the pages being in descending order. Even then, one mistake and you'll be having to edit the HTML (another reason to use Shortcuts so you can quickly add formatting with little effort).

    I've seen AI switch through multiple forum systems and I miss the original they had. MacRumors still uses that same setup and it still works great. Too bad their forum members are less than, well, let's just say they aren't my cup of tea.



  • Reply 98 of 175
    cgWerkscgWerks Posts: 2,078member
    "Pro" machines are machines that can be upgraded by it's owner if necessary. Professional computer users have a budget! Apple thinks the "pros" have an unlimited supply of money so it is okay for them to build the MBP as a throwaway appliance. An expensive appliance. Apple is actually taking it's customers for a ride.
    As others have noted, where did you get that definition of, 'pro'? I think there's some truth to that in certain pro applications in desktop and workstation computing, as GPU gains often move far faster than the rest of the machine. But, I'm not sure 'upgradability' has been a huge point for laptops.

    Yes, pros do have budgets.... but they are usually in-line with the ability to buy good or the best equipment available. While I'd personally love them to be cheaper, a primary tool like this for a true pro is relatively inexpensive in the big picture.
    lorin schultz said:
    Yet, if you were to talk only to those who post to forums (fora?), you might get the impression that no one wants what Apple is supplying now.
    I think the debate isn't so much about no-one wanting them, or many wanting them, etc. as it is over whether the 'pro' designation is appropriate (or what it even is).

    Apple now seems to define 'pro' as someone who does paying work with the device. I think traditionally, 'pro' was more a designation around durability, special characteristics or speed, or great for certain types of niche pro applications.

    I think we older-school folks are in the latter camp, looking at Apple aiming at the prior camp, and slapping a 'pro' label on the device. But, to be fair, MacBook Pros were never really fully 'pro' in the sense of top performance in niche pro applications, or necessarily even durability in terms of duty-cycle.
    nubus said:
    I fully agree that the move to Intel was much needed. It shut down the megahertz gap. It made it easier to let PCI boards to work with the Mac, improved battery life, etc. etc. ... The switch to Intel did solve a lot of issues. Hardware upgrades were not one of them.
    I remember at the time there seemed to be a lot of frustration over the rate of advancement and production capabilities over the G5. Megahertz gap, though, was mostly a marketing issue. The top G5s smoked the best Intel boxes in many cases. It was more about other gains than technology superiority.

    Ironically, with the A series gaining (or surpassing) some of these machines, I wonder if we're going to see a reversal chip architecture wars? 
    GeorgeBMac said:
    And that's part of the trouble with the "Glued and soldered together" design:   Planned Obsolescence. ... Some of us expect and demand a longer life out of our electronics.   I am currently using a 10-12 year old IBM Thinkpad that, after a number of upgrades (including a battery), functions perfectly.  Why should I not expect the same performance out of a Mac?   
    Part of this is just design. You can't make something in the form-factor of these machines that's built like older machines in terms of components and upgradability/replacement of parts. But, part of it is also due to less moving/breaking parts. Battery is nearly a non-issue anymore and fans are about the only moving parts.

    But, here's the thing. At the speed things are moving like OS, software, GPUs, etc. it's likely you'll be pushed to upgrade by software than you will because the hardware breaks. I've had 10-12 year old Macs around quite often, and they work great. They just might not be able to keep up with OS and application demands.
  • Reply 99 of 175
    cgWerkscgWerks Posts: 2,078member
    Soli said:
    I've seen AI switch through multiple forum systems and I miss the original they had. MacRumors still uses that same setup and it still works great. Too bad their forum members are less than, well, let's just say they aren't my cup of tea.
    Yea, this is not one of the better forum implementations I've seen... but it's better than not having one, I guess. :) I just always find it odd that the forums before the Internet was public were better than a lot of the modern forums.
  • Reply 100 of 175

    I have read all these comments about the Macbook Pro's redesign. Many like it. Many do not. Technically, it's a marvel but it is a limited machine. No way of upgrading the machine after purchase. I heard the MBP's design was based off of the Macbook which is a lower grade computer than the MBP. The Macbook "Pro" is just glorified Macbook with a "Pro" designation. That I feel is the incorrect thought process. The Macbook Pro should be based off of the Macbook Pro not a lower grade machine then tack on the "Pro" label on it. That is a misrepresentation of this computer. Basically a con job by Apple. This allows Apple to raise the prices because it has a "Pro" attached to it's name. "Pro" machines are machines that can be upgraded by it's owner if necessary. Professional computer users have a budget! Apple thinks the "pros" have an unlimited supply of money so it is okay for them to build the MBP as a throwaway appliance. An expensive appliance. Apple is actually taking it's customers for a ride. I am sorry I will not be taking that ride with the Apple zealots. I do not care what the Apple fanatics say or how they try to insult my point of view. I have owned Apple products for at least 20 years or so and I will not be anymore. Apple has changed too much. The pro market is not represented by them. Watch out for this iPad "Pro." It looks like the same formula as the MBP. Disappointing behavior Apple.
    You need to check your facts. 

    "I heard the MBP's design was based off of the Macbook which is a lower grade computer than the MBP." -- this is totally false. The chassis was engineered with techniques developed for the MacBook, but that's the beginning and end of it.

    ""Pro" machines are machines that can be upgraded by it's owner if necessary." -- It may be your definition, but it's not a good one.

    By all means. If Apple isn't doing what you need it to do, then get what does. Your chain of thought is disjointed, though, and makes a lot of assumptions about intent that aren't accurate.
    Let's take this rebuttal point by point. The MBP design was based off of the Macbook. The chassis was engineered with techniques developed for the Macbook... You are agreeing with me but... I do not understand why you did not finish your thought.

    My "Pro" machine machine definition was not a good one for you. What is a good one.

    My assumptions are what I have observed Apple do over the years. If these assumptions are not accurate please inform me or is my chain of thought too disjointed for you.

    At least you did not use profanity to express yourself. Thank you for that.  
    I never curse. On the forums, anyway. And, I was in the military for about a decade, so I can untangle just about everything.

    "Chassis developed based off techniques developed for the MacBook" I thought was relatively self-explanatory -- and I am not agreeing with your assumption about something you heard. The techniques involved are aluminum milling and casting. That has zero to do with motherboard design, and the electronics associated with it. In no way is the MBP just an amped-up MacBook, and that's really obvious.

    How does "Pro" mean "I can upgrade it?" "Pro" seems to me to mean "I can make money, efficiently" with this. MBP owners can move data at 40GBps. Not just from one port, but either two or four, depending on model. Retina display. You name it.

    Go back a page or two and look at my post regarding repairability and service numbers. Take a look at that.

    Your train of thought is that the machine isn't upgradeable, so Apple is taking its users for a ride (somehow) with machines that actually need service less often. Plus somehow, 20 years of Apple products somehow entitles you to a machine you like. That's the disjointed part.

    Like I've said like five times in this conversation. I'd like socketed processors, and RAM, and socketed NVMe. Hell, after work tonight, I'm going to put in dual six-core processors in a 5,1 Mac Pro for fun. Most readers of AI want these kinds of things. We are one percent of 12 percent of Apple's market.

    We're not Apple's target market anymore, and Apple doesn't owe us anything for loyalty.

    A tool is a tool. If Apple's not the right one for you, then tell them as best as you can, and move on. Just be sure that your justification is appropriate and based on facts -- you owe that to yourself.
    The chassis development of a any computer must consider motherboard design and the electronics associated with it. It is a total concept when a computer is being built.

    Apple defines "Pro" as "high end hardware for customers who need to run a Pro application." Apple used to make high end hardware that was more flexible and upgradeable.
    Apple has taken ability away. Apple forces it's customers to purchase a fully loaded machine when they possibly do not need it. Apple sales encourages the customer to buy a maxed out machine because then you are future proofing your machine. I feel that's wrong. My needs were different because I needed to upgrade to more RAM than what Apple was configuring. 16GB RAM on the MBP, I was hoping for 32GB RAM if I needed it but no flexibility.

    We are Apple's target market because the Mac was not eliminated. Apple has not eliminated any "Pro" machines...as a matter of fact they keep adding more for example, iPad Pro and now the iMac Pro.  I am sure they added these devices because .... You know, I do not know. I guess I am too disjointed.  Do you know why?


    You keep playing fast and loose with actual facts. When they're presented to you, politely and without snark, you keep applying malicious intent where there is none.

    If you can't see the math behind one percent of 12 percent of Apple's sales meaning almost nothing to Apple, there's not much more I can help you out with, I'm afraid.

    If you think that learning a technique in to build one device and applying that same fabrication technique to another enclosure means the machines are the same, then I have to assume you're unwilling to actually have a conversation about it. I can build a bird house with a saw, a hammer, some nails, and some wood. That doesn't mean that's that's all I can build.

    Sorry you're dissatisfied, and think Apple's out to get you. It is what it is. Tell Apple you don't like it, then don't buy anything new. Be sure to tell them you've been buying Apple for 20 years, and won't anymore because the Intel Kaby Lake processor doesn't support 32GB of LPDDR3 RAM, and Apple doesn't want to shorten the battery life by hours to suit you. 

    Don't tell an Apple sales clerk. Tim Cook's customer service email address was [email protected] the last time I checked. Emails get responded to on occasion.

    If you can convince enough people to go along with you, maybe Apple will change direction.

    And yes, you're right. They are adding more Pro hardware with the iMac Pro and a new Mac Pro at some point. But you know what? There's still no easy way for us one percenters to upgrade the iMac Pro. They sealed and glued it up.

    And do you know why? I do. Because IBM, and Deloitte, and their corporate partners wanted it. They don't do upgrades. They toss computers on desks like appliances. Tell me again how we're Apple's target market.

    I'll be happy to continue this conversation if it's actually that. I'm concerned that you're not actually listening, though. 

    I get that you're not getting what you want. I just don't think you actually want to understand why.
    I am not playing fast and loose with actual facts. My intent is not malicious at all. I am getting good feedback from my opinions. 

    I understand math very well. If 1% of 12% means nothing to Apple then they should discontinue the products. I was not talking about their sales anyway.

    Learning a technique in building a device or devices can only help build other devices. I never said the machines were the same. I said the new MBP was a "glorified" Macbook which is a less powerful machine than the MBP.

    I am disappointed not dissatisfied with Apple. No, Apple is not out to get me personally. I have written to Apple using their "Product Feedback" section of their website and I get no receipt or acknowledgement of my feedback. I figured my feedback was not delivered to the proper channels or just simply deleted. Apple really does not care about it's customers from what I see. Maybe I am wrong.

    About the "pro" machines not being able to be upgraded because their corporate partners wanting it. Well, you are probably correct about that. i can not find any information about this point. If that is the case, why should everyone deal with this practice of not upgrading. If we are not the target market, then maybe Apple should discontinue the product or just make those non upgradeable computers for their corporate partners. Apple used to make the eMac for schools many years ago. 

    It sounds like you work for AI or Apple or something because of your wanting to justify/explain Apple's strategy. Thank you for the conversation. It's been very educational.

    williamlondon
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