Justice Department investigating AT&T and Verizon for blocking eSIM adoption, Apple report...

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Comments

  • Reply 21 of 39
    wigbywigby Posts: 692member
    Apple are being hypocrits.

    Yes, eSIM needs to succeed and within the context of that they are right to file a complaint.

    However...

    - Can I switch to another App Store on iOS?
    - Can I circumvent the 30% Apple tax when selling content on Apple’s App Store?
    - Can I use Siri to control Google Maps or Spotify?
    - Can I use CarPlay to run Google Maps?
    - Am I able to backup iCloud to another destination using an open API they provide?
    - Can Dropbox and Google Drive hook in the operating system the way iCloud does?

    The answer to all questions: NO.

    If there’s one company who wants to regain control over their ecosystem it’s Apple. Ten years ago it was unacceptable when Microsoft pushed Internet Explorer, and they were forced to change that. Apple is much worse in that regard and yet the crickets are chirping.

    Telco companies colluding is a bad thing for sure, but Apple has a monopoly so they are even worse: they don’t have to collude at all to reach the same goal.

    Disclaimer: I’m an Apple user and love their hardware and their OS. So no, I’m not running to Android. Being a fan of a brand doesn’t mean I agree with everything that brand does. 
    Apple may be hypocritical but they are not a monopoly by any definition. You may not want to leave Apple but you can at anytime with no penalty, therefore they are not a monopoly just based on that alone.
    ronncornchipllamawatto_cobra
  • Reply 22 of 39
    What we really need is an eSim card that is acceptable to the carriers. This would answer the transportability issue.

    When you go to another country you should be able to register your eSim with a local carrier and get a local number and then select your default first choice carrier. 
  • Reply 23 of 39
    SoliSoli Posts: 10,033member
    DangDave said:
    What we really need is an eSim card that is acceptable to the carriers. This would answer the transportability issue.

    When you go to another country you should be able to register your eSim with a local carrier and get a local number and then select your default first choice carrier. 
    As this article shows, an eSIM solution that is acceptable to the carriers will not be transferable. They don't want to lose any control which is why moving forward into the future has been so hard. I'm afraid it's going to be a hard fight on this one.
    edited April 2018 muthuk_vanalingamwatto_cobra
  • Reply 24 of 39
    JanNLJanNL Posts: 315member
    roake said:
    along these lines (it was actually business phone and iPad that I lost in the middle of no access to WiFi and we are talking main system in finance that I own in NYC). Let me know.
    When I travel from the USA to the Philippines, I replace my SIM and use the iPhone without difficulty.  I have no access to WiFi.

    I don’t do anything special.  I’m not sure why it’s giving you grief.

    EDIT: My most recent trip was 3 years ago, perhaps changes in iOS.
    No changes in iOS, still works perfect. And the Apple SIM even better, use it often in my iPad Pro!
    Don’t take comments from someone who owns a “main system” in finance in New York and buys his SIM card in an local grocery store (instead of paying some roaming tariffs) too serious. 😉
    llamawatto_cobra
  • Reply 25 of 39
    SoliSoli Posts: 10,033member
    JanNL said:
    roake said:
    along these lines (it was actually business phone and iPad that I lost in the middle of no access to WiFi and we are talking main system in finance that I own in NYC). Let me know.
    When I travel from the USA to the Philippines, I replace my SIM and use the iPhone without difficulty.  I have no access to WiFi.

    I don’t do anything special.  I’m not sure why it’s giving you grief.

    EDIT: My most recent trip was 3 years ago, perhaps changes in iOS.
    No changes in iOS, still works perfect. And the Apple SIM even better, use it often in my iPad Pro!
    Don’t take comments from someone who owns a “main system” in finance in New York and buys his SIM card in an local grocery store (instead of paying some roaming tariffs) too serious. ߘ馬t;/div>
    A bit of a segue… It's hard to figure out where the cellular components are in the Series 3 Watch. I think I recall that the cellular antennas go around display assembly and of course at one of those unknown chips is for cellular, but even then it's extremely small and I assume very power efficient compared to their iDevices. I wonder if Apple will be using similar tech in future iDevices.



    edited April 2018 watto_cobra
  • Reply 26 of 39
    mattinozmattinoz Posts: 1,816member
    Say I travel to Europe and I buy local SIM there and replace it in my iPhone (actual scenario from life). So apart idiotic Apple soloution that requires me to find WiFi and reactivate phone because they feel I stole it from myself, how would purchase at local grocery store when I currently can buy SIM card would work for eSIM? Do I need to take invoice and fax machine to be able to do it and prove that iPhone is still mine? Thi is because Apple Poland tried to do to me... along these lines (it was actually business phone and iPad that I lost in the middle of no access to WiFi and we are talking main system in finance that I own in NYC). Let me know.

    I suggest that Apple should fix fundamental problems first instead of worring about supporting future technology by providers while it is unlikely to be supported in foreign countries for some time. Otherwise iPhone is a toy and not enterprise for business use... unfortunatelly. I wish it had no glitches like this because when it works it works well..
    Why would you wait to buy one in a local supermarket when as part of this system there will most likely be an interface to buy and store SIMs for all sorts of countries and just have them switch over for you on arrival?
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 27 of 39
    19831983 Posts: 1,225member
    Apple are being hypocrits.

    Yes, eSIM needs to succeed and within the context of that they are right to file a complaint.

    However...

    - Can I switch to another App Store on iOS?
    - Can I circumvent the 30% Apple tax when selling content on Apple’s App Store?
    - Can I use Siri to control Google Maps or Spotify?
    - Can I use CarPlay to run Google Maps?
    - Am I able to backup iCloud to another destination using an open API they provide?
    - Can Dropbox and Google Drive hook in the operating system the way iCloud does?

    The answer to all questions: NO.

    If there’s one company who wants to regain control over their ecosystem it’s Apple. Ten years ago it was unacceptable when Microsoft pushed Internet Explorer, and they were forced to change that. Apple is much worse in that regard and yet the crickets are chirping.

    Telco companies colluding is a bad thing for sure, but Apple has a monopoly so they are even worse: they don’t have to collude at all to reach the same goal.

    Disclaimer: I’m an Apple user and love their hardware and their OS. So no, I’m not running to Android. Being a fan of a brand doesn’t mean I agree with everything that brand does. 
    With reference to your disclaimer...well said!
    edited April 2018
  • Reply 28 of 39
    If you want to understand why an eSim is terrible for consumers, you only need to look at the iPad that has an eSim built in. 

    When I land in London, the only local carrier available on the eSim is EE. I cannot choose Vodafone, O2, or any other local carrier because they do not have an arrangement with Apple. That’s right, your phone’s manufacturer will be able to dictate what carriers and plans are available for their device. 

    When roaming today, I purchase a local sim and have the exact same choices and service as any local customer. With an eSim, the manufacturer and carrier can arrange to make only throttled or more expenive plans available to visitors. 

    An eSim puts the phone’s manufacturer between the customer and the carrier and will likely limit consumer choice and increase prices. 

    Swapping a physical sim gives me unlimited freedom to change carriers as I please. With an eSim, I will be limited only to the choices Apple provides for me based on the deals they make with each carrier. Let’s also keep in mind that there would be nothing stopping your carrrier or device manufacturer from charging you an activation or “service swapping” fee. 

    This is not a hardware issue. It is a business issue. I will only use phone with a physical sim for as long as I can to make sure I am in control of the service I purchase. 


    singularitycornchipairnerdfeudalistgatorguy
  • Reply 29 of 39
    SoliSoli Posts: 10,033member
    chi9741 said:
    If you want to understand why an eSim is terrible for consumers, you only need to look at the iPad that has an eSim built in. 

    When I land in London, the only local carrier available on the eSim is EE. I cannot choose Vodafone, O2, or any other local carrier because they do not have an arrangement with Apple. That’s right, your phone’s manufacturer will be able to dictate what carriers and plans are available for their device.
    1) It's the carriers that are hobbling eSIM on your iPad, not the Apple.

    2) All you described was how the carriers are bad for customers.

    3) SIM is an acronym for subscriber identity/identification module, not an abbreviation for simulates or some other word that starts with sim.
    anomewatto_cobra
  • Reply 30 of 39
    DAalsethDAalseth Posts: 1,983member
    Apple are being hypocrits.

    Yes, eSIM needs to succeed and within the context of that they are right to file a complaint.

    However...

    - Can I switch to another App Store on iOS?
    - Can I circumvent the 30% Apple tax when selling content on Apple’s App Store?
    - Can I use Siri to control Google Maps or Spotify?
    - Can I use CarPlay to run Google Maps?
    - Am I able to backup iCloud to another destination using an open API they provide?
    - Can Dropbox and Google Drive hook in the operating system the way iCloud does?

    The answer to all questions: NO.

    If there’s one company who wants to regain control over their ecosystem it’s Apple. Ten years ago it was unacceptable when Microsoft pushed Internet Explorer, and they were forced to change that. Apple is much worse in that regard and yet the crickets are chirping.

    Telco companies colluding is a bad thing for sure, but Apple has a monopoly so they are even worse: they don’t have to collude at all to reach the same goal.

    Disclaimer: I’m an Apple user and love their hardware and their OS. So no, I’m not running to Android. Being a fan of a brand doesn’t mean I agree with everything that brand does. 
    Hypocrites? Wow, not even close. None of the problems you listed are in fact problems. They are WHY the iOS ecosystem works so well and is as secure as it is. 
    As far as an Apple Monopoly, really you DO know most phones in the world are Android don't you? Apple has no monopoly, illegal or otherwise. It's not even close.
    To accuse Apple of having a monopoly on the iPhone is akin to accusing Ford of having a monopoly on the Mustang. There's other cars out there. The term isn't even remotely relevant to Apple. What's more if you really wanted to put a Camaro engine in a Mustang you could. You'd have to do it yourself and don't expect Ford to support you in the effort, or to fix your car when it doesn't work. Similarly if you want to do all of those things you listed on an iPhone you can always turn to Jailbreaking. Just don't expect Apple to support you in the effort, or to bail you out if you brick your iPhone. 

    Every purchase we make is a tradeoff between the things we want and what is available from the vendors. In the real world it's always option A, B, C, and D, pick any three. You NEVER get every option you want, that's the way it is. Last weekend we bought a new stove. We wanted a whole list of things. We bought the one that met our price point, and had MOST of the options we wanted. Did we whine that we couldn't get everything? No, because that's the way it is. You want a steak sandwich, fine but don't whine that it isn't Vegan. You want an iPhone, fine but don't whine that you can't do some things that you can on another brand. If a particular option is more important to you than it being an iPhone then go with another brand. There's lots of phones out there.. 
    muthuk_vanalingamwatto_cobra
  • Reply 31 of 39
    foggyhillfoggyhill Posts: 4,767member
    1983 said:
    Apple are being hypocrits.

    Yes, eSIM needs to succeed and within the context of that they are right to file a complaint.

    However...

    - Can I switch to another App Store on iOS?
    - Can I circumvent the 30% Apple tax when selling content on Apple’s App Store?
    - Can I use Siri to control Google Maps or Spotify?
    - Can I use CarPlay to run Google Maps?
    - Am I able to backup iCloud to another destination using an open API they provide?
    - Can Dropbox and Google Drive hook in the operating system the way iCloud does?

    The answer to all questions: NO.

    If there’s one company who wants to regain control over their ecosystem it’s Apple. Ten years ago it was unacceptable when Microsoft pushed Internet Explorer, and they were forced to change that. Apple is much worse in that regard and yet the crickets are chirping.

    Telco companies colluding is a bad thing for sure, but Apple has a monopoly so they are even worse: they don’t have to collude at all to reach the same goal.

    Disclaimer: I’m an Apple user and love their hardware and their OS. So no, I’m not running to Android. Being a fan of a brand doesn’t mean I agree with everything that brand does. 
    With reference to your disclaimer...well said!
    Actually, this is the standard disclaimer of trolls and is a non sequitur, a false equivalence a straw man all rolled into one, so "good job" indeed...
    ,But, hey, whatever.

    Funny how this Cheeze guy kind of forget that the airwaves and were the telco have put their shit are in fact not their property, they've been given access and that's why they're heavily regulated by towns, counties, states and the federal government in all countries.

    So, I'll fracking say it like it is. This person can take this "above the fray" (sic) trollish arguments built on a mountain of logical fallacies and take it back home to his so so called "house full of Apple stuff"... 
    edited April 2018 Solicornchipwatto_cobra
  • Reply 32 of 39
    foggyhillfoggyhill Posts: 4,767member
    chi9741 said:
    If you want to understand why an eSim is terrible for consumers, you only need to look at the iPad that has an eSim built in. 

    When I land in London, the only local carrier available on the eSim is EE. I cannot choose Vodafone, O2, or any other local carrier because they do not have an arrangement with Apple. That’s right, your phone’s manufacturer will be able to dictate what carriers and plans are available for their device. 

    When roaming today, I purchase a local sim and have the exact same choices and service as any local customer. With an eSim, the manufacturer and carrier can arrange to make only throttled or more expenive plans available to visitors. 

    An eSim puts the phone’s manufacturer between the customer and the carrier and will likely limit consumer choice and increase prices. 

    Swapping a physical sim gives me unlimited freedom to change carriers as I please. With an eSim, I will be limited only to the choices Apple provides for me based on the deals they make with each carrier. Let’s also keep in mind that there would be nothing stopping your carrrier or device manufacturer from charging you an activation or “service swapping” fee. 

    This is not a hardware issue. It is a business issue. I will only use phone with a physical sim for as long as I can to make sure I am in control of the service I purchase. 


    You're just proving that Apple is right to go after the carriers. The eSim is better, there is actually no real reason to have a physical device at all and eventually that will be the case everywhere.
    muthuk_vanalingamwatto_cobra
  • Reply 33 of 39
    foggyhill said:
    chi9741 said:
    If you want to understand why an eSim is terrible for consumers, you only need to look at the iPad that has an eSim built in. 

    When I land in London, the only local carrier available on the eSim is EE. I cannot choose Vodafone, O2, or any other local carrier because they do not have an arrangement with Apple. That’s right, your phone’s manufacturer will be able to dictate what carriers and plans are available for their device. 

    When roaming today, I purchase a local sim and have the exact same choices and service as any local customer. With an eSim, the manufacturer and carrier can arrange to make only throttled or more expenive plans available to visitors. 

    An eSim puts the phone’s manufacturer between the customer and the carrier and will likely limit consumer choice and increase prices. 

    Swapping a physical sim gives me unlimited freedom to change carriers as I please. With an eSim, I will be limited only to the choices Apple provides for me based on the deals they make with each carrier. Let’s also keep in mind that there would be nothing stopping your carrrier or device manufacturer from charging you an activation or “service swapping” fee. 

    This is not a hardware issue. It is a business issue. I will only use phone with a physical sim for as long as I can to make sure I am in control of the service I purchase. 


    You're just proving that Apple is right to go after the carriers. The eSim is better, there is actually no real reason to have a physical device at all and eventually that will be the case everywhere.
    I’m not questioning whether or not eSIM technology is good or bad. I’m saying the use of it is bad for consumers. How do you think Apple having control of my cellular plan choices and forcing themselves into the transaction as a middle man is their right? It is no different than iTunes, the App Store, and Apple Pay. Apple gets a cut of all these sales / purchases. Think of the eSIM as a sort of carrier service store. Carriers pay Apple to make their service / plans available on the embeded eSIM. This is how it works today on the iPad eSIM today. Apple isn’t pushing this tech for free. The fact that carriers are fighting this makes perfect sense. They will have to give control and money to device manufacturers in order to reach consumers. 
    airnerd
  • Reply 34 of 39
    Soli said:
    chi9741 said:
    If you want to understand why an eSim is terrible for consumers, you only need to look at the iPad that has an eSim built in. 

    When I land in London, the only local carrier available on the eSim is EE. I cannot choose Vodafone, O2, or any other local carrier because they do not have an arrangement with Apple. That’s right, your phone’s manufacturer will be able to dictate what carriers and plans are available for their device.
    1) It's the carriers that are hobbling eSIM on your iPad, not the Apple.

    2) All you described was how the carriers are bad for customers.

    3) SIM is an acronym for subscriber identity/identification module, not an abbreviation for simulates or some other word that starts with sim.
    1. I made no comment as to who if anyone was hampering eSIMs. Perhaps you meant to reply to a different post or start a new comment. Since you brought it up, the carriers hobbling a technology that puts control of their ability to reach consumers in the hands of device manufacturers does make sense. 
    2. Perhaps the eSIM technology could be good if we the consumers were guaranteed all the same carriers, products, and quality of service as traditional physical sim cards. The point of my comment was that this will not be the case. As you can see from Apple’s own website, a carrier needs to participate with Apple to be a service provider on their iPad eSIM. https://www.apple.com/ipad/apple-sim/
    3. I’m not sure what you are trying to prove with this comment. Did you want me to use SIM instead of sim? I doubt anyone was confused based on the context of the comment. Thank you for sharing your incredible intelligence.
    cornchipairnerd
  • Reply 35 of 39
    nunzynunzy Posts: 662member
    Soli said:


    I feel like the people that are so quick to say that Apple has no relevant market share are also the first to claim that Apple has a monopoly.
    Bunch of hypocrites.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 36 of 39
    why do apple have to bend over backwards for AT&T and Verizon? Apple makes the most money OUTSIDE of the US and I'm pretty sure if the iPhone 9 debuted with an eSIM, these two be doing everything they can to get it to work on their networks and not miss out on potentially millions of customers.
  • Reply 37 of 39
    airnerdairnerd Posts: 693member
    adm1 said:
    why do apple have to bend over backwards for AT&T and Verizon? Apple makes the most money OUTSIDE of the US and I'm pretty sure if the iPhone 9 debuted with an eSIM, these two be doing everything they can to get it to work on their networks and not miss out on potentially millions of customers.
    Those on AT&T and Verizon Contracts would be the ones getting screwed, and they would likely blame their carrier and Apple equally.  

    I personally would show AT&T the door as I'm not under contract, and I'd really enjoy watching the power move by Apple.  
    llama
  • Reply 38 of 39
    Major European and North American carriers refusing to support eSIM in iPads, and requiring a voice and data plan for a phone to use the eSIM in an Apple Watch is all the carriers' fault. By refusing to participate, companies like Verizon, Vodafone, and AT&T are essentially colluding to inhibit consumer choice. Of course, those of us who have used eSIM in an iPad know there are prepaid carriers available that enable use of eSIM in many, many countries. And in the United States, participating carriers enable comparison shopping without having to go from store to store relying on unknowledgeable sales staff...
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 39 of 39
    dinoonedinoone Posts: 69member
    That's a potential cartel involving not only US carriers, but also EU carriers since 2010: http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2010/11/embedded-sim-could-cause-carrier-conflict-for-apple/
    tallest skil
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