Mike Wuerthele said: You're welcome to not like the data, of course, and have your own opinions on it. And, regarding the actual data, our data set is interpreted conservatively to eliminate false positives. In reality, the failure numbers are likely higher.
Your data set doesn't supply a breakdown of the actual types of repairs being made or even a general percentage for minor vs. major repairs. Also, the use of the term "failure" is misleading since repairs for the keyboard could be as simple as a compressed air fix or something else that doesn't actually require a parts replacement.
As I've said many times before, a compressed air fix is not included. Those are either done at home, or in and out of the genius bar in an hour.
The only things that are included are repairs necessitating hardware replacement, and user down-time.
Mike Wuerthele said: You're welcome to not like the data, of course, and have your own opinions on it. And, regarding the actual data, our data set is interpreted conservatively to eliminate false positives. In reality, the failure numbers are likely higher.
Your data set doesn't supply a breakdown of the actual types of repairs being made or even a general percentage for minor vs. major repairs. Also, the use of the term "failure" is misleading since repairs for the keyboard could be as simple as a compressed air fix or something else that doesn't actually require a parts replacement.
As I've said many times before, a compressed air fix is not included. Those are either done at home, or in and out of the genius bar in an hour.
The only things that are included are repairs necessitating hardware replacement, and user down-time.
You guys are destroying your own site's credibility by obsessing about the keyboard. You really need to let it go for now and wait for some actual evidence to come out of the lawsuits instead of quoting iFixit's goofball tests that they don't use for any other brand of laptop except Apple.
We are doing nothing of the sort. Feel free to skip articles you don’t want to read.
I wouldn’t be so sure. Even if one skips the articles, these headlines still plaster the AI home page. iFixIt always seems to have an axe to grind against Apple since their business model is selling parts and repairs to products that are increasingly difficult to repair as is norm in tech, so parroting their axe grinding doesn’t exactly build favor IMO. This keyboard outrage just seems like contrived nonsense to me. There’s no data to suggest it’s worth worrying about. Even your own guessed-data supports that conclusion...so why all the coverage? I won’t say it.
It's not about 'data that makes it worth worrying about' or companies you feel have an 'axe to grind'. In the absence of official data from Apple people simply seek information. Right now there is something to worry about and people's concerns aren't 'contrived nonsense'.
AI has not shied a away from giving the information, as it has emerged and as it is, on this topic and yes, it is a hot topic.
If you were in the market for one of these machines I'm sure you'd like to know as much as possible on the subject. The keyboard is your main interface with the machine, after all.
Shouldn't people be outraged that Apple hasn't even told them what the cause of the problem is or hasn't put a possible figure on that 'small percentage' of users? Are we talking about 1 in 1000? I'm assuming Apple does have the exact data to go on. Or was it simply guessing?
At a very minimum, if I had put nearly 3,000€ on the table for a MBP and Apple told me it could fail at any time, I think I would deserve to know why, but you simply sum the situation up as 'contrived nonsense'.
Apple's silence means we don't know for sure if there is a design problem or something else. That means we don't know for sure if the factor of particle accumulation is involved, and that in itself would be a MASSIVE factor because we can't easily control particles getting into the keys. It's not the same as some materials problem where you are just sitting on statistical data and waiting for some parts (which all live in the same environment) to fail. If particle accumulation is the problem, it is essentially a moving target and very hard to determine if only a small percentage of users will be affected.
I didn't understand the 'build favour' part. AI is reporting on something that is newsworthy. I don't see how not reporting on new developments would help anyone.
You guys are destroying your own site's credibility by obsessing about the keyboard. You really need to let it go for now and wait for some actual evidence to come out of the lawsuits instead of quoting iFixit's goofball tests that they don't use for any other brand of laptop except Apple.
We are doing nothing of the sort. Feel free to skip articles you don’t want to read.
I wouldn’t be so sure. Even if one skips the articles, these headlines still plaster the AI home page. iFixIt always seems to have an axe to grind against Apple since their business model is selling parts and repairs to products that are increasingly difficult to repair as is norm in tech, so parroting their axe grinding doesn’t exactly build favor IMO. This keyboard outrage just seems like contrived nonsense to me. There’s no data to suggest it’s worth worrying about. Even your own guessed-data supports that conclusion...so why all the coverage? I won’t say it.
Your statement about "Plaster" is ridiculous. We published the numbers in April. We then talked about it when the keyboard repair program was launched in June. The MacBook Pro came out a week ago, and of our 120 headlines since a week ago Wednesday, we've had six headlines about it including the podcast, and hundreds of queries.
It's almost like its a hot-button issue about a new product with evolving information or something!
You're welcome to not like the data, of course, and have your own opinions on it. And, regarding the actual data, our data set is interpreted conservatively to eliminate false positives. In reality, the failure numbers are likely higher.
If this was a $100 repair, it wouldn't be as big a deal, but it isn't. A Dell XPS 13 keyboard repair is $75. A Lenovo X1 Carbon keyboard repair is $90.
And, I'm telling you right now -- we'll be revisiting the numbers one way or another in six months.
What data? Apple hasn't released any data. You have guesses tho, sure. But even with your guessed-data there is a lot of certainty I've read here in the comments. Using your guessed-data, what do you put the % at for number of units that had a bum keyboard?
Even then, you simply don't know whether it's dust egress or whether it was faulty metal alloy as one of Gruber's birdies suggested.
And no, my statement about the plethora of headlines on this ins't ridiculous. It's actually quite odd how much coverage is being given to an issue that affects a very small number of people (the actual number we won't ever truly know). AI has posted stories about whether the old MBPs will get new keyboard replacements, multiple stories about what the membrane is for, etc.. It's over the top, even if we don't read the articles.
You guys are destroying your own site's credibility by obsessing about the keyboard. You really need to let it go for now and wait for some actual evidence to come out of the lawsuits instead of quoting iFixit's goofball tests that they don't use for any other brand of laptop except Apple.
We are doing nothing of the sort. Feel free to skip articles you don’t want to read.
I wouldn’t be so sure. Even if one skips the articles, these headlines still plaster the AI home page. iFixIt always seems to have an axe to grind against Apple since their business model is selling parts and repairs to products that are increasingly difficult to repair as is norm in tech, so parroting their axe grinding doesn’t exactly build favor IMO. This keyboard outrage just seems like contrived nonsense to me. There’s no data to suggest it’s worth worrying about. Even your own guessed-data supports that conclusion...so why all the coverage? I won’t say it.
Your statement about "Plaster" is ridiculous. We published the numbers in April. We then talked about it when the keyboard repair program was launched in June. The MacBook Pro came out a week ago, and of our 120 headlines since a week ago Wednesday, we've had six headlines about it including the podcast, and hundreds of queries.
It's almost like its a hot-button issue about a new product with evolving information or something!
You're welcome to not like the data, of course, and have your own opinions on it. And, regarding the actual data, our data set is interpreted conservatively to eliminate false positives. In reality, the failure numbers are likely higher.
If this was a $100 repair, it wouldn't be as big a deal, but it isn't. A Dell XPS 13 keyboard repair is $75. A Lenovo X1 Carbon keyboard repair is $90.
And, I'm telling you right now -- we'll be revisiting the numbers one way or another in six months.
I'm a consumer who is planning to drop $3,000ish for one of these in the near future. It is a legitimate issue, and I appreciate you covering it.
What value-add have you gained? Apple won't say what the cause was, or when it was resolved. They certainly never said what this membrane was for. Nothing has been learned, but lots of clicks have been generated.
Mike Wuerthele said: You're welcome to not like the data, of course, and have your own opinions on it. And, regarding the actual data, our data set is interpreted conservatively to eliminate false positives. In reality, the failure numbers are likely higher.
Your data set doesn't supply a breakdown of the actual types of repairs being made or even a general percentage for minor vs. major repairs. Also, the use of the term "failure" is misleading since repairs for the keyboard could be as simple as a compressed air fix or something else that doesn't actually require a parts replacement.
As I've said many times before, a compressed air fix is not included. Those are either done at home, or in and out of the genius bar in an hour.
The only things that are included are repairs necessitating hardware replacement, and user down-time.
You guys are destroying your own site's credibility by obsessing about the keyboard. You really need to let it go for now and wait for some actual evidence to come out of the lawsuits instead of quoting iFixit's goofball tests that they don't use for any other brand of laptop except Apple.
We are doing nothing of the sort. Feel free to skip articles you don’t want to read.
I wouldn’t be so sure. Even if one skips the articles, these headlines still plaster the AI home page. iFixIt always seems to have an axe to grind against Apple since their business model is selling parts and repairs to products that are increasingly difficult to repair as is norm in tech, so parroting their axe grinding doesn’t exactly build favor IMO. This keyboard outrage just seems like contrived nonsense to me. There’s no data to suggest it’s worth worrying about. Even your own guessed-data supports that conclusion...so why all the coverage? I won’t say it.
It's not about 'data that makes it worth worrying about' or companies you feel have an 'axe to grind'. In the absence of official data from Apple people simply seek information. Right now there is something to worry about and people's concerns aren't 'contrived nonsense'.
AI has not shied a away from giving the information, as it has emerged and as it is, on this topic and yes, it is a hot topic.
If you were in the market for one of these machines I'm sure you'd like to know as much as possible on the subject. The keyboard is your main interface with the machine, after all.
Shouldn't people be outraged that Apple hasn't even told them what the cause of the problem is or hasn't put a possible figure on that 'small percentage' of users? Are we talking about 1 in 1000? I'm assuming Apple does have the exact data to go on. Or was it simply guessing?
At a very minimum, if I had put nearly 3,000€ on the table for a MBP and Apple told me it could fail at any time, I think I would deserve to know why, but you simply sum the situation up as 'contrived nonsense'.
Apple's silence means we don't know for sure if there is a design problem or something else. That means we don't know for sure if the factor of particle accumulation is involved, and that in itself would be a MASSIVE factor because we can't easily control particles getting into the keys. It's not the same as some materials problem where you are just sitting on statistical data and waiting for some parts (which all live in the same environment) to fail. If particle accumulation is the problem, it is essentially a moving target and very hard to determine if only a small percentage of users will be affected.
I didn't understand the 'build favour' part. AI is reporting on something that is newsworthy. I don't see how not reporting on new developments would help anyone.
I'm a pro software dev and my fastest machine is my MBP, which is several years old and will be replaced with a new MBP. Still no, I don't feel people shouldn't be "outraged". According to Apple it was a very small number of users, is not current, and the rest of it is just panic-induced nonsense. (People should be outraged that Samsung phones catch fire and send photos out to random contacts but I digress.
And yep, iFixit has an axe to grind on Apple products, as they're the closest we have to appliance computing and not designed for companies to sell parts and repair kits for.
You guys are destroying your own site's credibility by obsessing about the keyboard. You really need to let it go for now and wait for some actual evidence to come out of the lawsuits instead of quoting iFixit's goofball tests that they don't use for any other brand of laptop except Apple.
We are doing nothing of the sort. Feel free to skip articles you don’t want to read.
I wouldn’t be so sure. Even if one skips the articles, these headlines still plaster the AI home page. iFixIt always seems to have an axe to grind against Apple since their business model is selling parts and repairs to products that are increasingly difficult to repair as is norm in tech, so parroting their axe grinding doesn’t exactly build favor IMO. This keyboard outrage just seems like contrived nonsense to me. There’s no data to suggest it’s worth worrying about. Even your own guessed-data supports that conclusion...so why all the coverage? I won’t say it.
Your statement about "Plaster" is ridiculous. We published the numbers in April. We then talked about it when the keyboard repair program was launched in June. The MacBook Pro came out a week ago, and of our 120 headlines since a week ago Wednesday, we've had six headlines about it including the podcast, and hundreds of queries.
It's almost like its a hot-button issue about a new product with evolving information or something!
You're welcome to not like the data, of course, and have your own opinions on it. And, regarding the actual data, our data set is interpreted conservatively to eliminate false positives. In reality, the failure numbers are likely higher.
If this was a $100 repair, it wouldn't be as big a deal, but it isn't. A Dell XPS 13 keyboard repair is $75. A Lenovo X1 Carbon keyboard repair is $90.
And, I'm telling you right now -- we'll be revisiting the numbers one way or another in six months.
What data? Apple hasn't released any data. You have guesses tho, sure. But even with your guessed-data there is a lot of certainty I've read here in the comments. Using your guessed-data, what do you put the % at for number of units that had a bum keyboard?
Even then, you simply don't know whether it's dust egress or whether it was faulty metal alloy as one of Gruber's birdies suggested.
And no, my statement about the plethora of headlines on this ins't ridiculous. It's actually quite odd how much coverage is being given to an issue that affects a very small number of people (the actual number we won't ever truly know). AI has posted stories about whether the old MBPs will get new keyboard replacements, multiple stories about what the membrane is for, etc.. It's over the top, even if we don't read the articles.
News you don't like, or personally can't confirm, doesn't make it false, or not worth talking about. You're trying to minimize the fact that this is actual, collated data by falsely calling it guessed, just because you personally don't like it or it doesn't conform to your own anecdotal evidence or what you want to see.
You're a smart guy, but for some reason, you're missing the point about total. I've also said at least twice that this is in fact a "small percentage." But what it is is a significantly larger percentage than we've seen in a more than half a decade of MacBook Pros. Given my own history in and out of Apple service shops over the last 18 years, it greatly exceeds then as well but since I don't have numbers to talk about going that far back, we didn't talk about that.
But like I said, before the 2012 redesign, a keyboard wasn't a $400+ repair.
What we've got is a situation from one premium keyboard to another, the failure rate is notably higher from one year to the next. Also, in conjunction with that, the data says that Apple took steps in the 2017 keyboard, that is is using in the 2016 to fix the problem.
WHY it happens is completely and totally irrelevant from a user standpoint. What matters is that it does.
This argument reminds me of certain people in my family who claim that Fox News is liberally biased because it's not as far to the right as Breitbart or Infowars.
MacBook Pro party at the beach! Tomorrow after work, who's down?
While that was a funny comment, I think it's fair to say the scissor mechanism was more reliable. Several people had to go back three times because of dust in their keyboard? I never heard stories like these with the old keyboard. Also, don't recall Apple having a program to fix those old keyboards and three class action lawsuits about them. I figure keyboard redesigns should be more relabel, not less so. But look: thinner, and thinner!!
Sure, scissors mechanism are bullet-proof. Who the hell needs anything other than that?
They weren’t bullet proof, but they were a helluva lot more reliable and easier to fix. No one expects perfect. Just a reasonable failure rate.
Mike Wuerthele said: You're welcome to not like the data, of course, and have your own opinions on it. And, regarding the actual data, our data set is interpreted conservatively to eliminate false positives. In reality, the failure numbers are likely higher.
Your data set doesn't supply a breakdown of the actual types of repairs being made or even a general percentage for minor vs. major repairs. Also, the use of the term "failure" is misleading since repairs for the keyboard could be as simple as a compressed air fix or something else that doesn't actually require a parts replacement.
As I've said many times before, a compressed air fix is not included. Those are either done at home, or in and out of the genius bar in an hour.
The only things that are included are repairs necessitating hardware replacement, and user down-time.
You guys are destroying your own site's credibility by obsessing about the keyboard. You really need to let it go for now and wait for some actual evidence to come out of the lawsuits instead of quoting iFixit's goofball tests that they don't use for any other brand of laptop except Apple.
We are doing nothing of the sort. Feel free to skip articles you don’t want to read.
I wouldn’t be so sure. Even if one skips the articles, these headlines still plaster the AI home page. iFixIt always seems to have an axe to grind against Apple since their business model is selling parts and repairs to products that are increasingly difficult to repair as is norm in tech, so parroting their axe grinding doesn’t exactly build favor IMO. This keyboard outrage just seems like contrived nonsense to me. There’s no data to suggest it’s worth worrying about. Even your own guessed-data supports that conclusion...so why all the coverage? I won’t say it.
It's not about 'data that makes it worth worrying about' or companies you feel have an 'axe to grind'. In the absence of official data from Apple people simply seek information. Right now there is something to worry about and people's concerns aren't 'contrived nonsense'.
AI has not shied a away from giving the information, as it has emerged and as it is, on this topic and yes, it is a hot topic.
If you were in the market for one of these machines I'm sure you'd like to know as much as possible on the subject. The keyboard is your main interface with the machine, after all.
Shouldn't people be outraged that Apple hasn't even told them what the cause of the problem is or hasn't put a possible figure on that 'small percentage' of users? Are we talking about 1 in 1000? I'm assuming Apple does have the exact data to go on. Or was it simply guessing?
At a very minimum, if I had put nearly 3,000€ on the table for a MBP and Apple told me it could fail at any time, I think I would deserve to know why, but you simply sum the situation up as 'contrived nonsense'.
Apple's silence means we don't know for sure if there is a design problem or something else. That means we don't know for sure if the factor of particle accumulation is involved, and that in itself would be a MASSIVE factor because we can't easily control particles getting into the keys. It's not the same as some materials problem where you are just sitting on statistical data and waiting for some parts (which all live in the same environment) to fail. If particle accumulation is the problem, it is essentially a moving target and very hard to determine if only a small percentage of users will be affected.
I didn't understand the 'build favour' part. AI is reporting on something that is newsworthy. I don't see how not reporting on new developments would help anyone.
A keyboard that can't handle a few crumbs IS a design problem. A good design is a realistic design -- and dust flies and people eat, drop crumbs and spill things.
That said: A Maserati is more finicky than say a Honda Civic. It's the price one pays for an ultra high performance machine. But, perhaps Apple pushed the envelope a bit too far?
Mike Wuerthele said: You're welcome to not like the data, of course, and have your own opinions on it. And, regarding the actual data, our data set is interpreted conservatively to eliminate false positives. In reality, the failure numbers are likely higher.
Your data set doesn't supply a breakdown of the actual types of repairs being made or even a general percentage for minor vs. major repairs. Also, the use of the term "failure" is misleading since repairs for the keyboard could be as simple as a compressed air fix or something else that doesn't actually require a parts replacement.
As I've said many times before, a compressed air fix is not included. Those are either done at home, or in and out of the genius bar in an hour.
The only things that are included are repairs necessitating hardware replacement, and user down-time.
You guys are destroying your own site's credibility by obsessing about the keyboard. You really need to let it go for now and wait for some actual evidence to come out of the lawsuits instead of quoting iFixit's goofball tests that they don't use for any other brand of laptop except Apple.
We are doing nothing of the sort. Feel free to skip articles you don’t want to read.
I wouldn’t be so sure. Even if one skips the articles, these headlines still plaster the AI home page. iFixIt always seems to have an axe to grind against Apple since their business model is selling parts and repairs to products that are increasingly difficult to repair as is norm in tech, so parroting their axe grinding doesn’t exactly build favor IMO. This keyboard outrage just seems like contrived nonsense to me. There’s no data to suggest it’s worth worrying about. Even your own guessed-data supports that conclusion...so why all the coverage? I won’t say it.
It's not about 'data that makes it worth worrying about' or companies you feel have an 'axe to grind'. In the absence of official data from Apple people simply seek information. Right now there is something to worry about and people's concerns aren't 'contrived nonsense'.
AI has not shied a away from giving the information, as it has emerged and as it is, on this topic and yes, it is a hot topic.
If you were in the market for one of these machines I'm sure you'd like to know as much as possible on the subject. The keyboard is your main interface with the machine, after all.
Shouldn't people be outraged that Apple hasn't even told them what the cause of the problem is or hasn't put a possible figure on that 'small percentage' of users? Are we talking about 1 in 1000? I'm assuming Apple does have the exact data to go on. Or was it simply guessing?
At a very minimum, if I had put nearly 3,000€ on the table for a MBP and Apple told me it could fail at any time, I think I would deserve to know why, but you simply sum the situation up as 'contrived nonsense'.
Apple's silence means we don't know for sure if there is a design problem or something else. That means we don't know for sure if the factor of particle accumulation is involved, and that in itself would be a MASSIVE factor because we can't easily control particles getting into the keys. It's not the same as some materials problem where you are just sitting on statistical data and waiting for some parts (which all live in the same environment) to fail. If particle accumulation is the problem, it is essentially a moving target and very hard to determine if only a small percentage of users will be affected.
I didn't understand the 'build favour' part. AI is reporting on something that is newsworthy. I don't see how not reporting on new developments would help anyone.
A keyboard that can't handle a few crumbs IS a design problem. A good design is a realistic design -- and dust flies and people eat, drop crumbs and spill things.
That said: A Maserati is more finicky than say a Honda Civic. It's the price one pays for an ultra high performance machine. But, perhaps Apple pushed the envelope a bit too far?
Totally agree. I just play safe because some people are pedantic on details.
In the absence of the details from Apple we can only speculate but when I do that, I just can't imagine Apple not testing extensively for particle accumulation. So let's imagine they did just that. I can't see them getting results showing more reliability than previous designs, so what happened? Maybe they decided to run with the design in spite of their own projected reliability estimates. That is something they clearly wouldn't want to become public. Or perhaps they didn't test extensively in the first place. They wouldn't want that to become public either.
If it were a manufacturing or quality control issue, I think most people would understand but why not come forward and just say it?
Instead they are letting users fret. It's true that they are covered for four years but after that, any necessary repair will be very expensive and when they go vintage, the parts won't have guaranteed availability. And on top of that, any repair will simply replace the keyboard with the same model!
All of this is also calls into question broader design decisions such as a keyboard replacements that require replacing the top casing and battery.
However, right now, and at least in my view, what is unacceptable is that Apple has announced a warranty extension programme for the entirety of a product range but refuses to detail the cause of the problem, and instead, limits itself to defining the symptoms.
avon b7 said: Shouldn't people be outraged that Apple hasn't even told them what the cause of the problem is or hasn't put a possible figure on that 'small percentage' of users? Are we talking about 1 in 1000? I'm assuming Apple does have the exact data to go on. Or was it simply guessing?
The issues that people have said they experience with the 2016/17 MBP keyboard (sticky keys, intermittent function of keys, etc) are not unique to any brand of laptop or any mechanism design. Neither is the possibility that particles collecting under the keys are one possible cause of those problems. Now consider the fact that other laptop manufacturers like Dell, Lenovo, and HP don't supply any numbers regarding % of their laptops needing keyboard repairs. That's not unique either. So what is it that makes the MBP worthy of so much attention? There are only two things: the cost of replacing the keyboard and some incomplete data that shows the number of keyboard related repairs has increased vs. prior years. Is that increase significant enough to prove deficiency? Nobody can say. IMO, this is almost a mirror image of the complaints about the iPhone 6 case design. Was it more susceptible to bending than the 5s? Yes. Did that mean it had a design defect? No. The case design relative to three point bend resistance was well within industry standards. Apple did make changes to the case design after the iPhone 6, but those changes continued to take place beyond the 6s. In other words, making changes doesn't proven deficiency by itself.
avon b7 said: Shouldn't people be outraged that Apple hasn't even told them what the cause of the problem is or hasn't put a possible figure on that 'small percentage' of users? Are we talking about 1 in 1000? I'm assuming Apple does have the exact data to go on. Or was it simply guessing?
The issues that people have said they experience with the 2016/17 MBP keyboard (sticky keys, intermittent function of keys, etc) are not unique to any brand of laptop or any mechanism design. Neither is the possibility that particles collecting under the keys are one possible cause of those problems. Now consider the fact that other laptop manufacturers like Dell, Lenovo, and HP don't supply any numbers regarding % of their laptops needing keyboard repairs. That's not unique either. So what is it that makes the MBP worthy of so much attention? There are only two things: the cost of replacing the keyboard and some incomplete data that shows the number of keyboard related repairs has increased vs. prior years. Is that increase significant enough to prove deficiency? Nobody can say. IMO, this is almost a mirror image of the complaints about the iPhone 6 case design. Was it more susceptible to bending than the 5s? Yes. Did that mean it had a design defect? No. The case design relative to three point bend resistance was well within industry standards. Apple did make changes to the case design after the iPhone 6, but those changes continued to take place beyond the 6s. In other words, making changes doesn't proven deficiency by itself.
The biggest difference regarding Dell, Lenovo and HP is that the MBP has a warranty extension programme linked to every single butterfly keyboard ever produced on the 2016/17 models.
Mike Wuerthele said: As I've said many times before, a compressed air fix is not included. Those are either done at home, or in and out of the genius bar in an hour.
Okay, then why the focus on particles under the keys? That's likely a compressed air fix the majority of the time.
Mike Wuerthele said: As I've said many times before, a compressed air fix is not included. Those are either done at home, or in and out of the genius bar in an hour.
Okay, then why the focus on particles under the keys? That's likely a compressed air fix the majority of the time.
My way of looking at this is that if it were a manufacturing or quality control issue, you would think it was already solved. That would limit the extension programme to specific serial numbers. If that were the case, why is Apple simply not saying so?
Compressed air is listed as an option to try and will definitely work on some occasions, but not all.
The focus is on particle accumulation because it is the most probable cause of the issue until Apple decides to detail what the official cause is.
Apple claims that only a small percentage of users will be affected but there is no way to know what a small percentage represents. All we know is that if you have a 2016/17 butterfly keyboard you could be hit by the problem and Apple, so far, doesn't want to tell us what the problem is.
Mike Wuerthele said: As I've said many times before, a compressed air fix is not included. Those are either done at home, or in and out of the genius bar in an hour.
Okay, then why the focus on particles under the keys? That's likely a compressed air fix the majority of the time.
I may not have had enough sleep this week by half, so this is probably on me. I'm not sure what the question is?
Those suggesting that I plaster my $3000 laptop with a cheap and tacky $2 silicone sheet to overcome the flawed design can go do a running jump off the nearest cliff. It’s insulting.
Apple should be fixing their flawed design for that price!
I also wanted to add that in all my 30 years (yes, 3 decades) of using Apple products as an app developer I have never ever had such problems until now. It’s not imaginary or something, it’s very real. Multiple keys have become stuck and then unstuck again with some persuasion. I lose development time each time that happens. It is not acceptable and nor is Apple’s consistent avoidance of the issue. I find that abhorrent and the most insulting of all.
Comments
AI has not shied a away from giving the information, as it has emerged and as it is, on this topic and yes, it is a hot topic.
If you were in the market for one of these machines I'm sure you'd like to know as much as possible on the subject. The keyboard is your main interface with the machine, after all.
Shouldn't people be outraged that Apple hasn't even told them what the cause of the problem is or hasn't put a possible figure on that 'small percentage' of users? Are we talking about 1 in 1000? I'm assuming Apple does have the exact data to go on. Or was it simply guessing?
At a very minimum, if I had put nearly 3,000€ on the table for a MBP and Apple told me it could fail at any time, I think I would deserve to know why, but you simply sum the situation up as 'contrived nonsense'.
Apple's silence means we don't know for sure if there is a design problem or something else. That means we don't know for sure if the factor of particle accumulation is involved, and that in itself would be a MASSIVE factor because we can't easily control particles getting into the keys. It's not the same as some materials problem where you are just sitting on statistical data and waiting for some parts (which all live in the same environment) to fail. If particle accumulation is the problem, it is essentially a moving target and very hard to determine if only a small percentage of users will be affected.
I didn't understand the 'build favour' part. AI is reporting on something that is newsworthy. I don't see how not reporting on new developments would help anyone.
Even then, you simply don't know whether it's dust egress or whether it was faulty metal alloy as one of Gruber's birdies suggested.
And no, my statement about the plethora of headlines on this ins't ridiculous. It's actually quite odd how much coverage is being given to an issue that affects a very small number of people (the actual number we won't ever truly know). AI has posted stories about whether the old MBPs will get new keyboard replacements, multiple stories about what the membrane is for, etc.. It's over the top, even if we don't read the articles.
What value-add have you gained? Apple won't say what the cause was, or when it was resolved. They certainly never said what this membrane was for. Nothing has been learned, but lots of clicks have been generated.
And yep, iFixit has an axe to grind on Apple products, as they're the closest we have to appliance computing and not designed for companies to sell parts and repair kits for.
You're a smart guy, but for some reason, you're missing the point about total. I've also said at least twice that this is in fact a "small percentage." But what it is is a significantly larger percentage than we've seen in a more than half a decade of MacBook Pros. Given my own history in and out of Apple service shops over the last 18 years, it greatly exceeds then as well but since I don't have numbers to talk about going that far back, we didn't talk about that.
But like I said, before the 2012 redesign, a keyboard wasn't a $400+ repair.
What we've got is a situation from one premium keyboard to another, the failure rate is notably higher from one year to the next. Also, in conjunction with that, the data says that Apple took steps in the 2017 keyboard, that is is using in the 2016 to fix the problem.
WHY it happens is completely and totally irrelevant from a user standpoint. What matters is that it does.
In the absence of the details from Apple we can only speculate but when I do that, I just can't imagine Apple not testing extensively for particle accumulation. So let's imagine they did just that. I can't see them getting results showing more reliability than previous designs, so what happened? Maybe they decided to run with the design in spite of their own projected reliability estimates. That is something they clearly wouldn't want to become public. Or perhaps they didn't test extensively in the first place. They wouldn't want that to become public either.
If it were a manufacturing or quality control issue, I think most people would understand but why not come forward and just say it?
Instead they are letting users fret. It's true that they are covered for four years but after that, any necessary repair will be very expensive and when they go vintage, the parts won't have guaranteed availability. And on top of that, any repair will simply replace the keyboard with the same model!
All of this is also calls into question broader design decisions such as a keyboard replacements that require replacing the top casing and battery.
However, right now, and at least in my view, what is unacceptable is that Apple has announced a warranty extension programme for the entirety of a product range but refuses to detail the cause of the problem, and instead, limits itself to defining the symptoms.
Compressed air is listed as an option to try and will definitely work on some occasions, but not all.
The focus is on particle accumulation because it is the most probable cause of the issue until Apple decides to detail what the official cause is.
Apple claims that only a small percentage of users will be affected but there is no way to know what a small percentage represents. All we know is that if you have a 2016/17 butterfly keyboard you could be hit by the problem and Apple, so far, doesn't want to tell us what the problem is.
Full width touch screen keyboards.
Apple should be fixing their flawed design for that price!
I also wanted to add that in all my 30 years (yes, 3 decades) of using Apple products as an app developer I have never ever had such problems until now. It’s not imaginary or something, it’s very real. Multiple keys have become stuck and then unstuck again with some persuasion. I lose development time each time that happens. It is not acceptable and nor is Apple’s consistent avoidance of the issue. I find that abhorrent and the most insulting of all.