"Free" software update. Wow. That's unusual. Now can all the little whiney bees go change their diapers?
Well, no, of course not; because there's still the keyboard to whine about, along with the lack of a parallel printer port, and the warp engine is still missing in action.
But I am curious: this problem was discovered during a performance test with FCPX. I'd always assumed Apple had a copy of that lying around somewhere … Should they have spotted this during their own testing?
It was Adobe Premier that was used by Mr. Lee I believe, not FCPX. Still, Apple should probably pick up a copy of Premier for future testing
Awesome! Glad they found the issue. I noticed some slowness when testing my 15" 2.6 this morning with the Intel app that was used by you guys here on AI.
Nice that they can improve the performance with a software patch, but I’m a bit confused. How are performance limitations caused by thermal issues fixed by a software patch? Unles it’s just horribly inefficient software that’s using too many cycles to do it’s work, I would think that this is a hardware issue, not a software one.
Nice that they can improve the performance with a software patch, but I’m a bit confused. How are performance limitations caused by thermal issues fixed by a software patch? Unles it’s just horribly inefficient software that’s using too many cycles to do it’s work, I would think that this is a hardware issue, not a software one.
Well, the hardware throttling is controlled by software tho.
Well, something clearly was wrong, so more power to Apple if they can fix it with a software update. I'm glad if the fix is that simple. The ignorant, namely me, can jump to all sorts of wrong conclusions about certain problems. I'm just glad it isn't as bad as many of us thought it was. My first guess would always be inadequate cooling because Apple computers have had such problems in the past. I automatically equate slim cases with poor airflow as being a serious problem in regards to Apple's desktop/laptop computer performance. From my perspective, Apple seems quite happy to compromise performance in order to have a good-looking, slim product. Sorry, but that's how I see it even if I'm wrong.
Nice that they can improve the performance with a software patch, but I’m a bit confused. How are performance limitations caused by thermal issues fixed by a software patch? Unles it’s just horribly inefficient software that’s using too many cycles to do it’s work, I would think that this is a hardware issue, not a software one.
CPU power states are incredibly complex these days and they are all controlled by sensor information (temperature, voltage & amp states, rate of increase/decrease in voltages & amps), what power state the CPU should be end (there are at least 4 to 5 now). All this is controlled by software and hardware working in concert. Like with the iPhone 6 batteries issues, even the amount of power provided by the battery and how fast it can be provided is a complex interplay with the power draw from the computing bits. That’s all software driven. It’s software in the “ROM” of the computer, not software like an app.
Even the definition of what a turbo frequency is on Coffee Lake has changed, and the advertised turbo isn’t necessarily its real turbo nor should you assume it’s a turbo for all cores. This is true for TDP too as Intel has changed what it means for Coffee Lake chips.
It is more complex than this as the chips in Apple’s computers are all trending towards needing to be cryptographically signed, likely to ensure that nefarious parties don’t put anything nefarious on a chip’s ROM or add a chip in somewhere etc.
So, it is software and data necessary for the chips in the computer to run as a computing system so that it can run the system software and your applications.
Now what we going to complain about 2018 Macbook Pro ? Well, one big complain still out there is 13" Function keys MBP not yet updated like it's counterpart with TouchBar..
That's still technically the 2017 MacBook Pro. Sorry to steal your thunder.
Have they done anything to fix the keyboards on the older Model computers they sell? They acknowledged the problem with the extended warranty but it just seems bad to continue to sell laptops that still come with an unaddressed problem (aside from the warrentee extension).
Hopefully even these older models will get the key condom soon.
mjtomlin said: It is impossible for any company to test any and every possible case to ensure 100% error free operation. This was a bug that only showed up under very specific circumstances.
I'm not sure Adobe Premier qualifies as 'very specific circumstances'... AI also saw similar results with common benchmark tools. It didn't show up quite as much, though, in some better optimized software: cf.
Apple probably should have caught it... but I'm glad it is being resolved via a patch. It would be interesting to understand how that works, but yay!
gmgravytrain said: My first guess would always be inadequate cooling because Apple computers have had such problems in the past.
Well, I probably still wouldn't consider it adequate cooling, overall. These things have run hot for years. I lost two of them in the mid-2000s early due to heat eventually taking out the GPU or instability. Just because the CPU throttles down to save itself doesn't mean the whole rest of the machine is happy with the heat.
k2kw said: Have they done anything to fix the keyboards on the older Model computers they sell? They acknowledged the problem with the extended warranty but it just seems bad to continue to sell laptops that still come with an unaddressed problem (aside from the warrentee extension).
Hopefully even these older models will get the key condom soon.
I think the 4-year warranty is just kind of what it is. After 4-years, I suppose they expect most people will have moved on.
Now what we going to complain about 2018 Macbook Pro ? Well, one big complain still out there is 13" Function keys MBP not yet updated like it's counterpart with TouchBar..
That's still technically the 2017 MacBook Pro. Sorry to steal your thunder.
Have they done anything to fix the keyboards on the older Model computers they sell? They acknowledged the problem with the extended warranty but it just seems bad to continue to sell laptops that still come with an unaddressed problem (aside from the warrentee extension).
Hopefully even these older models will get the key condom soon.
I'm not expecting the third gen to make it back to the 2016 and 2017.
That said, it looks like they made improvements in the 2017 era keyboard, which they ARE using in the 2016.
"Free" software update. Wow. That's unusual. Now can all the little whiney bees go change their diapers?
Well, no, of course not; because there's still the keyboard to whine about, along with the lack of a parallel printer port, and the warp engine is still missing in action.
But I am curious: this problem was discovered during a performance test with FCPX. I'd always assumed Apple had a copy of that lying around somewhere … Should they have spotted this during their own testing?
It was Adobe Premier that was used by Mr. Lee I believe, not FCPX. Still, Apple should probably pick up a copy of Premier for future testing
Mmm. I think some chap saw similar problems with FCPX. I’ve found lots of videos, but not the original one I was referring to (maybe he took it down). I wouldn’t be surprised about Premiere turn in slow results; it’s not really optimised for Macs.
It’s a good thing they came out with this software fix but it does show a short coming in their QC. Looking forward to how this works out.
I listened to the Cult Of Mac podcast “CultCast” where the guest called the whole MBP program a SCAM. I could only imagine DED ‘s head blowing up at that.
It’s a good thing they came out with this software fix but it does show a short coming in their QC. Looking forward to how this works out.
I listened to the Cult Of Mac podcast “CultCast” where the guest called the whole MBP program a SCAM. I could only imagine DED ‘s head blowing up at that.
Yes, I’m sensing a real groundswell of disappointment that this was sorted out so quickly.
What will follow is a load of uninformed guesswork as to how it happened and then some meaningless conclusions as to what Apple should of done which will be geared around the whiner’s bugbear of the day.
“Yeah, well maybe if they had left in the parallel port then the heat could have escaped through the hole.”
Now what we going to complain about 2018 Macbook Pro ? Well, one big complain still out there is 13" Function keys MBP not yet updated like it's counterpart with TouchBar..
That's still technically the 2017 MacBook Pro. Sorry to steal your thunder.
Have they done anything to fix the keyboards on the older Model computers they sell? They acknowledged the problem with the extended warranty but it just seems bad to continue to sell laptops that still come with an unaddressed problem (aside from the warrentee extension).
Hopefully even these older models will get the key condom soon.
Are you also waiting for Apple to bring water intrusion resistance to iPhone 6?
No manufacturer has ever replaced keyboards on a laptop with a new design. This is just manufactured nonsense. Products are improved in new model designs. They are never really retroactively retrofitted with enhanced designs. Imagine a new model year of a car shipping with improved headlamps and people demanding to know when that new design was going to be shipped to all the people who bought earlier versions of the car. It's insane, and really makes people forwarding this BS look foolish and ridiculous.
It’s a good thing they came out with this software fix but it does show a short coming in their QC. Looking forward to how this works out.
I listened to the Cult Of Mac podcast “CultCast” where the guest called the whole MBP program a SCAM. I could only imagine DED ‘s head blowing up at that.
Yes, I’m sensing a real groundswell of disappointment that this was sorted out so quickly.
What will follow is a load of uninformed guesswork as to how it happened and then some meaningless conclusions as to what Apple should of done which will be geared around the whiner’s bugbear of the day.
“Yeah, well maybe if they had left in the parallel port then the heat could have escaped through the hole.”
The reality is that this was a checkbox item that didn't get ticked.
That should never happen under any circumstances because that is why checkboxes are used in the first place. This problem should never have got out of the gate.
Call it guesswork or uninformed opinion but can you offer any other explanation?
For the record, I said from the day that Dave Lee highlighted the issue that I hoped it could be a software or firmware issue and stayed well away from the threads that were speculating on the causes.
Speculation is not a problem as long as you treat it as such.
This issue has been explained with sufficient detail, fixed and communicated quickly.
That is in stark contrast to the keyboard problems for which Apple has offered nothing as an explanation for the causes of the issue.
Maybe a paralell port is in order to let dust and crumbs out?
It’s a good thing they came out with this software fix but it does show a short coming in their QC. Looking forward to how this works out.
I listened to the Cult Of Mac podcast “CultCast” where the guest called the whole MBP program a SCAM. I could only imagine DED ‘s head blowing up at that.
Yes, I’m sensing a real groundswell of disappointment that this was sorted out so quickly.
What will follow is a load of uninformed guesswork as to how it happened and then some meaningless conclusions as to what Apple should of done which will be geared around the whiner’s bugbear of the day.
“Yeah, well maybe if they had left in the parallel port then the heat could have escaped through the hole.”
The reality is that this was a checkbox item that didn't get ticked.
That should never happen under any circumstances because that is why checkboxes are used in the first place. This problem should never have got out of the gate.
Call it guesswork or uninformed opinion but can you offer any other explanation?
For the record, I said from the day that Dave Lee highlighted the issue that I hoped it could be a software or firmware issue and stayed well away from the threads that were speculating on the causes.
Speculation is not a problem as long as you treat it as such.
This issue has been explained with sufficient detail, fixed and communicated quickly.
That is in stark contrast to the keyboard problems for which Apple has offered nothing as an explanation for the causes of the issue.
Maybe a paralell port is in order to let dust and crumbs out?
Y'see, this is the problem: lots of people gleefully making assumptions when they lack the facts or background expertise.
Let's backtrack a little.
Last week, we had a whole flock of people here swearing blind that the problem was caused because Apple, who have been building razor thin machines for a good ten years now, suddenly forgot that they needed to account for heat in their design. That's right: these people, from the comfort of their mother's basement couch, believed that Apple had forgotten that chips get hot.
'See! We were right all along! They care too much about thinness! They made the machine too thin!"
And now we have the same people, without access or knowledge to Apple's quality control processes, delivery systems, manufacturing lines, or final testing procedures, think the problem is caused because someone didn't tick something.
That really is quite precious.
The software and firmware is built through automated processes. Versions are tagged and tested, and if the tests are passed then the build is a success. It is possible (and without access to the full details, this is speculation) that because it passed the tests, the fact that the key was missed didn't show up. It's also possible that because it passed the tests, the key was deemed unnecessary. It's also possible that because the test suite passed, it was decided it was preferable to run without the missing profile because slowing down the chip would preserve the life of the machine with little detrimental effect on performance – or so it was thought until someone ran scenarios that Apple hadn't included in its test suite.
So if this is the case, then the solution is for Apple to expand the test suite to cover the new scenarios. Will this prevent the same thing happening again? No! Because in the future, new software will be written which will produce new performance shapes that Apple hasn't accounted for, and so the tests are expanded again. At some point they may come up with a new streamlined set of scenarios that will allow them to hit more points with less code.
Every project I've worked on for the past ten years have used test suites that grow at least twice as fast as the software being tested. We have never caught every scenario first, second, third or fourth time.
No one aims to have the perfect quality control process because it can't be done; what they aim to have is a quality process that is not so rigid that it cannot adapt. They're looking for a process that can highlight problems within itself, as well as the product they're testing.
The other point of course is that we don't know exactly where the problem occurred. Apple said the key was missed in the machines? Was this because the wrong build was sent to the manufacturer, or did the manufacturer use the wrong build by mistake because they had a number to choose from?
When you have a bit of knowledge as to how these things work, then you see not all problems can be solved by adding an extra person to tick a second box. What if he misses it too? I know! Add a third person and get him to check another box! That's probably what you would do, but a quality engineer would realise that the problem is relying on box-ticking in the first place.
Not going to go into the keyboard stuff. Apple has explained that there is not a design problem with the keyboard, but if anyone has a problem then they’ll fix it. If you're not happy with that then buy a different machines. Simples.
Now what we going to complain about 2018 Macbook Pro ? Well, one big complain still out there is 13" Function keys MBP not yet updated like it's counterpart with TouchBar..
That's still technically the 2017 MacBook Pro. Sorry to steal your thunder.
Have they done anything to fix the keyboards on the older Model computers they sell? They acknowledged the problem with the extended warranty but it just seems bad to continue to sell laptops that still come with an unaddressed problem (aside from the warrentee extension).
Hopefully even these older models will get the key condom soon.
Are you also waiting for Apple to bring water intrusion resistance to iPhone 6?
No manufacturer has ever replaced keyboards on a laptop with a new design. This is just manufactured nonsense. Products are improved in new model designs. They are never really retroactively retrofitted with enhanced designs. Imagine a new model year of a car shipping with improved headlamps and people demanding to know when that new design was going to be shipped to all the people who bought earlier versions of the car. It's insane, and really makes people forwarding this BS look foolish and ridiculous.
avon b7 said: Maybe a paralell port is in order to let dust and crumbs out?
Or, an empty 3.5mm hole you can stick the straw of the air can into? With properly designed channels, it should blow all the crumbs and dust out... hmm, yea, or maybe a SD card sized hole on the other side? That would make one heck of a Jony video!
Rayz2016 said: Last week, we had a whole flock of people here swearing blind that the problem was caused because Apple, who have been building razor thin machines for a good ten years now, suddenly forgot that they needed to account for heat in their design. That's right: these people, from the comfort of their mother's basement couch, believed that Apple had forgotten that chips get hot.
Comments
Even the definition of what a turbo frequency is on Coffee Lake has changed, and the advertised turbo isn’t necessarily its real turbo nor should you assume it’s a turbo for all cores. This is true for TDP too as Intel has changed what it means for Coffee Lake chips.
It is more complex than this as the chips in Apple’s computers are all trending towards needing to be cryptographically signed, likely to ensure that nefarious parties don’t put anything nefarious on a chip’s ROM or add a chip in somewhere etc.
So, it is software and data necessary for the chips in the computer to run as a computing system so that it can run the system software and your applications.
Hopefully even these older models will get the key condom soon.
Apple probably should have caught it... but I'm glad it is being resolved via a patch. It would be interesting to understand how that works, but yay!
Well, I probably still wouldn't consider it adequate cooling, overall. These things have run hot for years. I lost two of them in the mid-2000s early due to heat eventually taking out the GPU or instability. Just because the CPU throttles down to save itself doesn't mean the whole rest of the machine is happy with the heat.
I think the 4-year warranty is just kind of what it is. After 4-years, I suppose they expect most people will have moved on.
Exhibit A:
What will follow is a load of uninformed guesswork as to how it happened and then some meaningless conclusions as to what Apple should of done which will be geared around the whiner’s bugbear of the day.
“Yeah, well maybe if they had left in the parallel port then the heat could have escaped through the hole.”
No manufacturer has ever replaced keyboards on a laptop with a new design. This is just manufactured nonsense. Products are improved in new model designs. They are never really retroactively retrofitted with enhanced designs. Imagine a new model year of a car shipping with improved headlamps and people demanding to know when that new design was going to be shipped to all the people who bought earlier versions of the car. It's insane, and really makes people forwarding this BS look foolish and ridiculous.
That should never happen under any circumstances because that is why checkboxes are used in the first place. This problem should never have got out of the gate.
Call it guesswork or uninformed opinion but can you offer any other explanation?
For the record, I said from the day that Dave Lee highlighted the issue that I hoped it could be a software or firmware issue and stayed well away from the threads that were speculating on the causes.
Speculation is not a problem as long as you treat it as such.
This issue has been explained with sufficient detail, fixed and communicated quickly.
That is in stark contrast to the keyboard problems for which Apple has offered nothing as an explanation for the causes of the issue.
Maybe a paralell port is in order to let dust and crumbs out?
Y'see, this is the problem: lots of people gleefully making assumptions when they lack the facts or background expertise.
Let's backtrack a little.
Last week, we had a whole flock of people here swearing blind that the problem was caused because Apple, who have been building razor thin machines for a good ten years now, suddenly forgot that they needed to account for heat in their design. That's right: these people, from the comfort of their mother's basement couch, believed that Apple had forgotten that chips get hot.
'See! We were right all along! They care too much about thinness! They made the machine too thin!"
And now we have the same people, without access or knowledge to Apple's quality control processes, delivery systems, manufacturing lines, or final testing procedures, think the problem is caused because someone didn't tick something.
That really is quite precious.
The software and firmware is built through automated processes. Versions are tagged and tested, and if the tests are passed then the build is a success. It is possible (and without access to the full details, this is speculation) that because it passed the tests, the fact that the key was missed didn't show up. It's also possible that because it passed the tests, the key was deemed unnecessary. It's also possible that because the test suite passed, it was decided it was preferable to run without the missing profile because slowing down the chip would preserve the life of the machine with little detrimental effect on performance – or so it was thought until someone ran scenarios that Apple hadn't included in its test suite.
So if this is the case, then the solution is for Apple to expand the test suite to cover the new scenarios. Will this prevent the same thing happening again? No! Because in the future, new software will be written which will produce new performance shapes that Apple hasn't accounted for, and so the tests are expanded again. At some point they may come up with a new streamlined set of scenarios that will allow them to hit more points with less code.
Every project I've worked on for the past ten years have used test suites that grow at least twice as fast as the software being tested. We have never caught every scenario first, second, third or fourth time.
No one aims to have the perfect quality control process because it can't be done; what they aim to have is a quality process that is not so rigid that it cannot adapt. They're looking for a process that can highlight problems within itself, as well as the product they're testing.
The other point of course is that we don't know exactly where the problem occurred. Apple said the key was missed in the machines? Was this because the wrong build was sent to the manufacturer, or did the manufacturer use the wrong build by mistake because they had a number to choose from?
When you have a bit of knowledge as to how these things work, then you see not all problems can be solved by adding an extra person to tick a second box. What if he misses it too? I know! Add a third person and get him to check another box! That's probably what you would do, but a quality engineer would realise that the problem is relying on box-ticking in the first place.
Not going to go into the keyboard stuff. Apple has explained that there is not a design problem with the keyboard, but if anyone has a problem then they’ll fix it. If you're not happy with that then buy a different machines. Simples.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Or, an empty 3.5mm hole you can stick the straw of the air can into? With properly designed channels, it should blow all the crumbs and dust out... hmm, yea, or maybe a SD card sized hole on the other side? That would make one heck of a Jony video!
We didn't think they forgot...