Personally, the faster Apple withdraws all manufacturing from China, and maybe even deliberately halts all sales, the better this will be! If Apple withdraws, and takes all their manufacturing jobs with them, let's see how long China will take to start begging them to come back!
I'm sure that Chinese Companies and individuals will see their social scores increase by participating in these boycotts.
The Five Eyes are aligned against Chinese Telecom equipment, and as they should be. There's no odds in a telecom infrastructure from an authoritarian government known for IP theft.
If Apple gets beaten up in China, then I'm guessing that China will no longer be the supply chain for Apple Products.
The Five Eyes already has a lot Huawei gear. Nothing surprising in that. What is new is the US desperately trying to stop Huawei progress for technological and political reasons under the guise of security and doing so, so late in the day that the UK roll out of 5G could be put back by a year and cost a lot more. All without a shred of evidence.
I'm not seeing the need for proof, no more than China would by banning / eliminating U.S.telecom equipment. Were you aware that Huawei is providing AI hardware to the Chinese Government for upgrading its already intrusive network spying on its own citizens?
China has an authoritarian government, President for Life, and China is adamant about seizing the South China Sea per it's claims, which bodes ill for international trade. Given the rampant IP theft, and Chinese Hacking, I'm not seeing why democracies would risk using Huawei infrastructure.
Great Britain is in the process of reevaluating Huawei equipment; the rest, including the U.S., have little in the way of Huawei equipment in place, and most of that will be removed or replaced.
"In Australia, experts are also concerned about cyber-security attacks against our institutions and businesses emanating from China.
For example, consider recent reports in this newspaper that China’s peak security agency directed a surge in cyber attacks on Australian companies over the past year; and that internet traffic heading for Australia was diverted to China for a six-day period.
There's no suggestion Huawei is in anyway involved in these attacks. But the government's decision to ban it from Australia's 5G networks was certainly based on concerns about China.
"A long history of cyber incidents shows cyber actors target Australia and Australians," Prime Minister Scott Morrison and Mitch Fifield said in their joint statement back in August without directly mentioning China.
"The government considers that the involvement of vendors who are likely to be subject to extrajudicial directions from a foreign government that conflict with Australian law, may risk failure by the carrier to adequately protect a 5G network from unauthorised access or interference."
In other words, the government was concerned that even if Huawei wasn't directly controlled by the Chinese government (the vendor has always denied that it is), under the country's laws it wouldn't be able to resist any demands made on it by Beijing."
Huawei is not China.
Correction, they are FROM China, and as per Chinese law, as Tmay stated, they CANNOT refuse ANY order from the government, hence they're an integral part of the PRC government. Not to mention Huawei is a bunch of IP thieves, so their reputation is just as bad as most Chinese tech firms already.
Actually, laws are the least of things on a practical level. The US has already pressured AT&T and Verizon to pull out of commercial deals with Huawei. Who needs laws when you can leverage other options.
Let's not even get into what Snowden revealed about US activities on just about every friend or foe out there - including Huawei.
AT&T was seen to be particularly eager to help out with government whenever the option arose.
We need to be realistic. No one will stop the Chinese, Russians or Americans and others accessing parts of communications infrastructure.
This isn't about 'security', it's about commerce. Huawei is out in front and was delivering the goods. The tech power balance was shifting and the US dropped the ball on 5G. Now, with the tariffs and whatnot, competitors are accelerating plans to depend on themselves. Not just the Chinese but the EU too.
You seem unable to digest the fact that China is an authoritarian state, so of course, you see this as only competitive commerce.
I am beginning to wish that Apple never bothered with this market. In a way, I envy Google and Facebook, which are effectively barred from competing in China.
Google isn't barred, it just has to play by the Chinese Governments rules. Same for Facebook.
Wow. A difference without a distinction.
Thanks, but no thanks.
Of course there’s a distinction. Google is barred from doing business in China, they have thus far chosen not to. But that may be changing as they’ve been toying with a search app for China.
Not anymore. Project Dragonfly didn't pass muster with Google's Privacy team (yes they have one). So no current plans for nor further development of a Google Search product in China
Considering how much effort Sundar Pichai put into Project Dragonfly, I'm not surprised by this story;
Every big company has their projects they keep other departments and divisions and even some members of management in the dark about. Apple is famous for their examples of it. We might all be shocked if we knew the projects that got serious consideration only to be shut down due to some privacy or whatever reason. Apple is just far better than most at lockdown.
I am beginning to wish that Apple never bothered with this market. In a way, I envy Google and Facebook, which are effectively barred from competing in China.
Google isn't barred, it just has to play by the Chinese Governments rules. Same for Facebook.
Wow. A difference without a distinction.
Thanks, but no thanks.
Of course there’s a distinction. Google is barred from doing business in China, they have thus far chosen not to. But that may be changing as they’ve been toying with a search app for China.
Not anymore. Project Dragonfly didn't pass muster with Google's Privacy team (yes they have one). So no current plans for nor further development of a Google Search product in China
Given how Sundar Pichai attempted to keep this hidden from internal review, I'm not seeing Google in that great a light, but credit to employees for putting a stop to this.
Nope. Huawei has denied this. Not directly or indirectly. Huawei says it complies with all the laws in force in the countries where it operates and data is stored for example, in the EU, on servers within the EU.
Yeah and just because they deny this you believe them? Next you will say this is not about security this is about commerce and everyone does it ... Oh wait, you just said it! Western countries are not spying on citizens to suppress free speech, steal intellectual property, put their citizens in jail for dissent or worse, execute them like Russia, Saudi Arabia, North Korea and China.
Personally, the faster Apple withdraws all manufacturing from China, and maybe even deliberately halts all sales, the better this will be! If Apple withdraws, and takes all their manufacturing jobs with them, let's see how long China will take to start begging them to come back!
I'm sure that Chinese Companies and individuals will see their social scores increase by participating in these boycotts.
The Five Eyes are aligned against Chinese Telecom equipment, and as they should be. There's no odds in a telecom infrastructure from an authoritarian government known for IP theft.
If Apple gets beaten up in China, then I'm guessing that China will no longer be the supply chain for Apple Products.
The Five Eyes already has a lot Huawei gear. Nothing surprising in that. What is new is the US desperately trying to stop Huawei progress for technological and political reasons under the guise of security and doing so, so late in the day that the UK roll out of 5G could be put back by a year and cost a lot more. All without a shred of evidence.
I'm not seeing the need for proof, no more than China would by banning / eliminating U.S.telecom equipment. Were you aware that Huawei is providing AI hardware to the Chinese Government for upgrading its already intrusive network spying on its own citizens?
China has an authoritarian government, President for Life, and China is adamant about seizing the South China Sea per it's claims, which bodes ill for international trade. Given the rampant IP theft, and Chinese Hacking, I'm not seeing why democracies would risk using Huawei infrastructure.
Great Britain is in the process of reevaluating Huawei equipment; the rest, including the U.S., have little in the way of Huawei equipment in place, and most of that will be removed or replaced.
"In Australia, experts are also concerned about cyber-security attacks against our institutions and businesses emanating from China.
For example, consider recent reports in this newspaper that China’s peak security agency directed a surge in cyber attacks on Australian companies over the past year; and that internet traffic heading for Australia was diverted to China for a six-day period.
There's no suggestion Huawei is in anyway involved in these attacks. But the government's decision to ban it from Australia's 5G networks was certainly based on concerns about China.
"A long history of cyber incidents shows cyber actors target Australia and Australians," Prime Minister Scott Morrison and Mitch Fifield said in their joint statement back in August without directly mentioning China.
"The government considers that the involvement of vendors who are likely to be subject to extrajudicial directions from a foreign government that conflict with Australian law, may risk failure by the carrier to adequately protect a 5G network from unauthorised access or interference."
In other words, the government was concerned that even if Huawei wasn't directly controlled by the Chinese government (the vendor has always denied that it is), under the country's laws it wouldn't be able to resist any demands made on it by Beijing."
Huawei is not China.
Correction, they are FROM China, and as per Chinese law, as Tmay stated, they CANNOT refuse ANY order from the government, hence they're an integral part of the PRC government. Not to mention Huawei is a bunch of IP thieves, so their reputation is just as bad as most Chinese tech firms already.
Look at Brexit, think it is easy to untangle complex and lengthy trade arrangements think again.
I am beginning to wish that Apple never bothered with this market. In a way, I envy Google and Facebook, which are effectively barred from competing in China.
Google isn't barred, it just has to play by the Chinese Governments rules. Same for Facebook.
Wow. A difference without a distinction.
Thanks, but no thanks.
Of course there’s a distinction. Google is barred from doing business in China, they have thus far chosen not to. But that may be changing as they’ve been toying with a search app for China.
Not anymore. Project Dragonfly didn't pass muster with Google's Privacy team (yes they have one). So no current plans for nor further development of a Google Search product in China
Given how Sundar Pichai attempted to keep this hidden from internal review, I'm not seeing Google in that great a light, but credit to employees for putting a stop to this.
There's a better link above in Post 43 explaining the involvement that got the project shelved.
So getting back to the topic...
The issue the US has with Huawei may have some unanticipated negative effects on large US companies with Apple perhaps standing in as the public face of the United States and garnering the most blowback from Chinese consumers.
this is all the product of american corporate greed. they steal our IP and we do NOTHING because we want make stuff as cheap as possible. we give them our IP just so we can sell to them. we gladly take their money to educate their children in our universities. their goal is to beat us at everything we do best. and what they can't beat us at, they'll steal it. and WE DO NOTHING.
AAAAND we, as customers, won’t pay to support local or USA stuff because it costs too much. That may not be corporate greed, but the results are the same.
It’s too late. The decades of US research, the millions of hours, creativity, genius, blood, sweat and tears that went into the greatest inventions and technologies ever created have already been stolen and continue to be stolen by the Chinese. They are a communist, moralless nation that does not believe stealing is wrong. They don’t want to do the work themselves - much easier to steal it. Those that steal technology from other countries are heroes in China. The greatest shift of intellectual assets in the history of mankind is happening now. China 2025 is a real threat. Apple get your manufacturing and dependence on Chinese suppliers out of China as fast as possible (if it’s even possible).
Of course the Chinese government likes to think that every charge against a Chinese company is politically motivated.
But why is Meng Wanzhou, the CFO so special? Why is Huawei special? If AT&T's CFO was arrested in France, would Americans boycott French wines?
I think the boycotts in China are politically motivated themselves. Huawei is a government owned/controlled company and the CFO is the daughter of politically connected founder.
China likes to play up the importance of 5G, but at the end of the day, it is just another wireless standard. Like any standards, it does not do you any good if nobody wants to play with you.
On a related note, I never saw this bit of news reported.
One of the two homes that are owned by Wanzhou and/or her husband here in Vancouver was the site of a home invasion during the time she was waiting for her bail hearing. The intruders left when someone confronted them, but the timing is awfully suspicious.
Possibly. But Vancouver is also a high crime rate city.
Not the area their house is located. Their house is worth $5.6 million, and it's a typical house for the area. Here are some others for sale in the immediate vicinity.
Any developed nation with sufficient knowledge and resources could try to infiltrate supply chains, transport (physical or digital) and even the designs themselves. We already know this. China, Russia, USA, Israel etc. Any one of them or others could have some fingers in the pie.
This is beyond absurd. China is the second large economy in the world (some even suggest they are the largest), they need to shake off their miserable past and be a grown up man. They have to ask what rule they want to play and how engage they want to be with the world. Apple has done everything in their power to be as friendly to them as possible. What possible benefits they could get by doing this stupid thing to Apple. The central propaganda organization needs to put a stop on this. Whatever reputation they have earned are being damaged left and right. Don’t be as stupid as Trump government.
Foxconn used to have plants in Mexico. Does it still? It would be more cost-effective (if the trained assemblers exist) to manufacture iPhones in Mexico. It is closer and belongs to the new NAFTA.
I'm sure that Chinese Companies and individuals will see their social scores increase by participating in these boycotts.
The Five Eyes are aligned against Chinese Telecom equipment, and as they should be. There's no odds in a telecom infrastructure from an authoritarian government known for IP theft.
If Apple gets beaten up in China, then I'm guessing that China will no longer be the supply chain for Apple Products.
The Five Eyes already has a lot Huawei gear. Nothing surprising in that. What is new is the US desperately trying to stop Huawei progress for technological and political reasons under the guise of security and doing so, so late in the day that the UK roll out of 5G could be put back by a year and cost a lot more. All without a shred of evidence.
I'm not seeing the need for proof, no more than China would by banning / eliminating U.S.telecom equipment. Were you aware that Huawei is providing AI hardware to the Chinese Government for upgrading its already intrusive network spying on its own citizens?
China has an authoritarian government, President for Life, and China is adamant about seizing the South China Sea per it's claims, which bodes ill for international trade. Given the rampant IP theft, and Chinese Hacking, I'm not seeing why democracies would risk using Huawei infrastructure.
Great Britain is in the process of reevaluating Huawei equipment; the rest, including the U.S., have little in the way of Huawei equipment in place, and most of that will be removed or replaced.
"In Australia, experts are also concerned about cyber-security attacks against our institutions and businesses emanating from China.
For example, consider recent reports in this newspaper that China’s peak security agency directed a surge in cyber attacks on Australian companies over the past year; and that internet traffic heading for Australia was diverted to China for a six-day period.
There's no suggestion Huawei is in anyway involved in these attacks. But the government's decision to ban it from Australia's 5G networks was certainly based on concerns about China.
"A long history of cyber incidents shows cyber actors target Australia and Australians," Prime Minister Scott Morrison and Mitch Fifield said in their joint statement back in August without directly mentioning China.
"The government considers that the involvement of vendors who are likely to be subject to extrajudicial directions from a foreign government that conflict with Australian law, may risk failure by the carrier to adequately protect a 5G network from unauthorised access or interference."
In other words, the government was concerned that even if Huawei wasn't directly controlled by the Chinese government (the vendor has always denied that it is), under the country's laws it wouldn't be able to resist any demands made on it by Beijing."
If your statement about China not allowing American technology was true Qualcomm would be banded there as well as Microsoft and Intel, meaning all Windows PCs and all phones with mobile modems.
I do. And it might. But there are some fundamental differences. France as a sovereign state is not stealing our intellectual property, hacking our companies, detaining our citizens out of spite, trying to annex other countries, putting their citizens into mass enslavement camps, selling telecommunications infrastructure that may allow them to spy on all data that passes through the equipment, forcing our companies to give them access to all data, expanding their military and threatening destabilizing actions like China is in the South China Sea and forcing their citizens to “Buy French”.These are very different to a short term political spat over Iraq.
I'm sure that Chinese Companies and individuals will see their social scores increase by participating in these boycotts.
The Five Eyes are aligned against Chinese Telecom equipment, and as they should be. There's no odds in a telecom infrastructure from an authoritarian government known for IP theft.
If Apple gets beaten up in China, then I'm guessing that China will no longer be the supply chain for Apple Products.
The Five Eyes already has a lot Huawei gear. Nothing surprising in that. What is new is the US desperately trying to stop Huawei progress for technological and political reasons under the guise of security and doing so, so late in the day that the UK roll out of 5G could be put back by a year and cost a lot more. All without a shred of evidence.
I'm not seeing the need for proof, no more than China would by banning / eliminating U.S.telecom equipment. Were you aware that Huawei is providing AI hardware to the Chinese Government for upgrading its already intrusive network spying on its own citizens?
China has an authoritarian government, President for Life, and China is adamant about seizing the South China Sea per it's claims, which bodes ill for international trade. Given the rampant IP theft, and Chinese Hacking, I'm not seeing why democracies would risk using Huawei infrastructure.
Great Britain is in the process of reevaluating Huawei equipment; the rest, including the U.S., have little in the way of Huawei equipment in place, and most of that will be removed or replaced.
"In Australia, experts are also concerned about cyber-security attacks against our institutions and businesses emanating from China.
For example, consider recent reports in this newspaper that China’s peak security agency directed a surge in cyber attacks on Australian companies over the past year; and that internet traffic heading for Australia was diverted to China for a six-day period.
There's no suggestion Huawei is in anyway involved in these attacks. But the government's decision to ban it from Australia's 5G networks was certainly based on concerns about China.
"A long history of cyber incidents shows cyber actors target Australia and Australians," Prime Minister Scott Morrison and Mitch Fifield said in their joint statement back in August without directly mentioning China.
"The government considers that the involvement of vendors who are likely to be subject to extrajudicial directions from a foreign government that conflict with Australian law, may risk failure by the carrier to adequately protect a 5G network from unauthorised access or interference."
In other words, the government was concerned that even if Huawei wasn't directly controlled by the Chinese government (the vendor has always denied that it is), under the country's laws it wouldn't be able to resist any demands made on it by Beijing."
If your statement about China not allowing American technology was true Qualcomm would be banded there as well as Microsoft and Intel, meaning all Windows PCs and all phones with mobile modems.
China won't ban products until they have gleaned all that they can out of them. At that point, what do they need Western Companies for other than balance of trade reasons?
I do. And it might. But there are some fundamental differences. France as a sovereign state is not stealing our intellectual property, hacking our companies, detaining our citizens out of spite, trying to annex other countries, putting their citizens into mass enslavement camps, selling telecommunications infrastructure that may allow them to spy on all data that passes through the equipment, forcing our companies to give them access to all data, expanding their military and threatening destabilizing actions like China is in the South China Sea and forcing their citizens to “Buy French”.These are very different to a short term political spat over Iraq.
I was referring to the Chinese boycott of Apple.
I know. You asked if anyone remembered “Freedom Fries” I said I did. You said this would pass much like that did. I said “It might” Then I gave my reasons why I though this could be different to the Freedom Fries spat over the US invasion of Iraq.
What if the Chinese ban all Apple production in China? We retaliate by placing sanctions on all of their products. They ban all production that's intended for the US. I will have to import underwear from Germany, which is a scary proposition.
Comments
You seem unable to digest the fact that China is an authoritarian state, so of course, you see this as only competitive commerce.
So to help everyone gets back on topic here's the sources for the BI story you linked that better explains why and how the Privacy Team got involved.
https://theintercept.com/2018/11/29/google-china-censored-search/
https://theintercept.com/2018/12/17/google-china-censored-search-engine-2/
Given how Sundar Pichai attempted to keep this hidden from internal review, I'm not seeing Google in that great a light, but credit to employees for putting a stop to this.
Look at Brexit, think it is easy to untangle complex and lengthy trade arrangements think again.
So getting back to the topic...
The issue the US has with Huawei may have some unanticipated negative effects on large US companies with Apple perhaps standing in as the public face of the United States and garnering the most blowback from Chinese consumers.
Not the area their house is located. Their house is worth $5.6 million, and it's a typical house for the area. Here are some others for sale in the immediate vicinity.
Hmmmm.
You said this would pass much like that did. I said “It might”
Then I gave my reasons why I though this could be different to the Freedom Fries spat over the US invasion of Iraq.