Comparing the 2018 MacBook Air with the less-expensive 2017 model

13

Comments

  • Reply 41 of 63
    MplsPMplsP Posts: 1,093member
    After using my 2017 MBP for about 14 months I can absolutely say that MagSafe was far and away a superior charging system. Easier to use. Easy to see if the computer was charging or charged without even opening the case. Safer. 

    This is subjective, but the keyboard sucks, and the issues with debris are real (see my post above.) 

    Even 3 years after they introduced it, I still see very little use for USB C over a USB A 3.1 port and a TB port. It allows you to charge, but MagSafe was better for that. You can combine it with Thunderbolt, but there is little advantage to doing that and simply replacing one of the USB C ports with a TB port, and then you know that the port and cable are TB capable, unlike the confusing mess we have now with USB C ports and cables. When everyone's solution to the issue is "get a hub," as they said in the article, that should tell you something. Beyond all that is the fact that when I go looking for USB C peripherals, there's a pathetic selection compared to USB A

    GeorgeBMac
  • Reply 42 of 63
    sudaltsov said:
    sudaltsov said:
    sudaltsov said:
    I cannot believe you did not mention the cameragate of the new one. There are plenty of images around there showing how dramatically worse the new camera became.
    https://www.macrumors.com/guide/macbook-air-camera-quality-issue/
    Why? It is hardly a "gate," and service calls for the "issue" aren't statistically significant. As with any other issue, if you have a problem with a piece of Apple hardware, go to a service center and get a case number so it can be tracked.

    So far, the 2018 MacBook Air has about the same failure rate over the corresponding period of time as every other MacBook Air ever released past 2010, and a notably lower one than the original Air. If there was a widespread problem, it would manifest in the service data.

    Also? Watergate was the name of the hotel. The scandal in question wasn't about water. Adding -gate to things is... silly.
    If you look at the number of complains and returns on Apple support site (need links?) - you'll see it is serious statistics. And you'll see that all Apple can offer is 'yes we designed it that way, just return/replace and shutup if unhappy'. People do return those devices, in bulk. It is design issue, not an issue with individual items. Go to any Apple store, compare the camera of Air 2017 and Air 2018. You'll be surprised. I did that with at least 5 different stores in different countries. Also, I returned my Air 2018 for replacement - just to get the new one with the same horrible camera. Other people did that too. What other kind of proof do you need?

    "It would manifest in the service data" - do you have access to it? I doubt Apple publishes it.

    BTW "watergate" created a naming pattern, it is not a hotel name anymore. There was antennagate with iPhone ;)
    I have access to return data as well. There is no increase over any other model. And yes, I have access to a pretty large subset of the entire set of Apple's service data going back to 2010. It is where the keyboard failure numbers came from.

    I'm aware of the naming pattern. It was stupid during every other -gate too.

    What kind of proof I need is actual data supporting the fact that there is a large issue and the actual data says that there isn't one. I'm not saying that you didn't experience the problem, and that there aren't complaints about it. What I am saying is that it isn't a giant issue affecting the entire line, beyond more than a small percentage of purchasers because the data does not say that it is one. Should the data show a shift, then the conclusion will change.
    I respectfully disagree (even knowing that you have access to the stats).
    That is the design issue affecting the entire line, which was confirmed many times (including Apple support people - 'functions as designed' looking at those photos). Look at the poll https://9to5mac.com/2018/12/02/some-2018-macbook-air-users-experiencing-poor-facetime-hd-camera-quality-are-you-poll/ near 80% (small percentage?) out of 4K people experience that. So far noone could present good (at least not seriously worse than Air 2017) quality photos made in less than 'Apple-grade perfect conditions'. Could you please by any chance do that, if you happen to have access to two devices? There was no single report of the scenario "I had a bad one, sent back for replacement, got the good one" - but there are numerous "replaced bad one with the same bad". I sincerely would like to see some hope here, some proof that there exists good Air 2018 devices with decent (not worse than Air 2017) camera. Then perhaps I would shut up on that issue forever. Please prove me wrong, not with statistics, just with the photos made on 2017 and 2018 devices. Proving that mythical "good-camera-enabled" Air 2018 exist at all.
    PS. BTW, there was a huge thread on Apple support website about it. What did Apple do? Deleted it. Now, there are smaller threads but they still grow.
    The pictures I’ve seen comparing 2018 Air with the previous model, including those in this very article, don’t necessarily support your conclusion of a “design flaw”. 

    Is this a FaceTime issue? All video? I haven’t seen any sample video comparing the current and previous model, but from the stills I’ve seen the 2018 camera actually looks like it produces the superior quality. 
    fastasleep
  • Reply 43 of 63
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 4,196administrator
    MplsP said:
    McJobs said:
    Alternative headline: Comparing the 2018 MacBook Air with the old 2010 design.




    The late-2010 model is what I had until last month.  I evaluated both the new 2018 Air and the 2017 Pro, and went with the Pro.  Very happy with that decision.  I’ll keep food and dust away from the keyboard.  
    Good luck with that. I had the same thought with my 2017 MBP and even being as careful as I could be I started having issues with sticking keys after a couple months. I ended up getting a silicone protector which protects the keyboard but makes and already crappy keyboard even crappier.
    We've had one keyboard failure across the entire staff, spanning 15 MacBook Pros.
    That would extrapolate to roughly 2+3% per year. I would actually consider that to be a rather high failure rate for something like a keyboard which is critical and, with the new design, very expensive to replace.
    2012 AI Staff, first year of service on the 15-inch MacBook Pro with Retina Display: 1 out of 4 keyboards
    2014 MacBook Pro Retina, first year of service, 1 out of 7 keyboards
    2015 MacBook Pro Retina, first year of service, 0 out of 10 keyboards

    I didn't put forth the 1 in 15 as some kind of universal metric, but rather what we're seeing here. The sample size of 15 is way, way too small to extrapolate to the entire population, as I guarantee 25% of the 2012 Retina MacBook Pro keyboards across the entire user base didn't fail in the first year, and there wasn't zero failures across the entire line in 2015.

    edited February 10 StrangeDayschia
  • Reply 44 of 63
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 4,196administrator

    sudaltsov said:
    sudaltsov said:
    sudaltsov said:
    I cannot believe you did not mention the cameragate of the new one. There are plenty of images around there showing how dramatically worse the new camera became.
    https://www.macrumors.com/guide/macbook-air-camera-quality-issue/
    Why? It is hardly a "gate," and service calls for the "issue" aren't statistically significant. As with any other issue, if you have a problem with a piece of Apple hardware, go to a service center and get a case number so it can be tracked.

    So far, the 2018 MacBook Air has about the same failure rate over the corresponding period of time as every other MacBook Air ever released past 2010, and a notably lower one than the original Air. If there was a widespread problem, it would manifest in the service data.

    Also? Watergate was the name of the hotel. The scandal in question wasn't about water. Adding -gate to things is... silly.
    If you look at the number of complains and returns on Apple support site (need links?) - you'll see it is serious statistics. And you'll see that all Apple can offer is 'yes we designed it that way, just return/replace and shutup if unhappy'. People do return those devices, in bulk. It is design issue, not an issue with individual items. Go to any Apple store, compare the camera of Air 2017 and Air 2018. You'll be surprised. I did that with at least 5 different stores in different countries. Also, I returned my Air 2018 for replacement - just to get the new one with the same horrible camera. Other people did that too. What other kind of proof do you need?

    "It would manifest in the service data" - do you have access to it? I doubt Apple publishes it.

    BTW "watergate" created a naming pattern, it is not a hotel name anymore. There was antennagate with iPhone ;)
    I have access to return data as well. There is no increase over any other model. And yes, I have access to a pretty large subset of the entire set of Apple's service data going back to 2010. It is where the keyboard failure numbers came from.

    I'm aware of the naming pattern. It was stupid during every other -gate too.

    What kind of proof I need is actual data supporting the fact that there is a large issue and the actual data says that there isn't one. I'm not saying that you didn't experience the problem, and that there aren't complaints about it. What I am saying is that it isn't a giant issue affecting the entire line, beyond more than a small percentage of purchasers because the data does not say that it is one. Should the data show a shift, then the conclusion will change.
    I respectfully disagree (even knowing that you have access to the stats).
    That is the design issue affecting the entire line, which was confirmed many times (including Apple support people - 'functions as designed' looking at those photos). Look at the poll https://9to5mac.com/2018/12/02/some-2018-macbook-air-users-experiencing-poor-facetime-hd-camera-quality-are-you-poll/ near 80% (small percentage?) out of 4K people experience that. So far noone could present good (at least not seriously worse than Air 2017) quality photos made in less than 'Apple-grade perfect conditions'. Could you please by any chance do that, if you happen to have access to two devices? There was no single report of the scenario "I had a bad one, sent back for replacement, got the good one" - but there are numerous "replaced bad one with the same bad". I sincerely would like to see some hope here, some proof that there exists good Air 2018 devices with decent (not worse than Air 2017) camera. Then perhaps I would shut up on that issue forever. Please prove me wrong, not with statistics, just with the photos made on 2017 and 2018 devices. Proving that mythical "good-camera-enabled" Air 2018 exist at all.
    PS. BTW, there was a huge thread on Apple support website about it. What did Apple do? Deleted it. Now, there are smaller threads but they still grow.
    Now I'm starting to wonder if you read the article, since the only comments you've made here, ever, have been about this camera. There is a side-by-side in this very article you're commenting on, and in the video.

    You're welcome to disagree based on your own problem and a disproportionately loud forum-going population, but data is data. Also, regarding the support forums, casual users who get their problem solved have a tendency to not return and report success, which is why we can use it as a general proof of life (or death, as the case may be), but can't use it for actual data.
    edited February 10 StrangeDaysfastasleepchia
  • Reply 45 of 63
    DuhSesame said:
    if you had any fact.
    Because you don't like them doesn't make them any less facts.   Life sucks.  Deal with it.
    😂😂😂
    He said it with confidence.
    edited February 10
  • Reply 46 of 63
    sudaltsovsudaltsov Posts: 10unconfirmed, member

    sudaltsov said:
    sudaltsov said:
    sudaltsov said:
    I cannot believe you did not mention the cameragate of the new one. There are plenty of images around there showing how dramatically worse the new camera became.
    https://www.macrumors.com/guide/macbook-air-camera-quality-issue/
    Why? It is hardly a "gate," and service calls for the "issue" aren't statistically significant. As with any other issue, if you have a problem with a piece of Apple hardware, go to a service center and get a case number so it can be tracked.

    So far, the 2018 MacBook Air has about the same failure rate over the corresponding period of time as every other MacBook Air ever released past 2010, and a notably lower one than the original Air. If there was a widespread problem, it would manifest in the service data.

    Also? Watergate was the name of the hotel. The scandal in question wasn't about water. Adding -gate to things is... silly.
    If you look at the number of complains and returns on Apple support site (need links?) - you'll see it is serious statistics. And you'll see that all Apple can offer is 'yes we designed it that way, just return/replace and shutup if unhappy'. People do return those devices, in bulk. It is design issue, not an issue with individual items. Go to any Apple store, compare the camera of Air 2017 and Air 2018. You'll be surprised. I did that with at least 5 different stores in different countries. Also, I returned my Air 2018 for replacement - just to get the new one with the same horrible camera. Other people did that too. What other kind of proof do you need?

    "It would manifest in the service data" - do you have access to it? I doubt Apple publishes it.

    BTW "watergate" created a naming pattern, it is not a hotel name anymore. There was antennagate with iPhone ;)
    I have access to return data as well. There is no increase over any other model. And yes, I have access to a pretty large subset of the entire set of Apple's service data going back to 2010. It is where the keyboard failure numbers came from.

    I'm aware of the naming pattern. It was stupid during every other -gate too.

    What kind of proof I need is actual data supporting the fact that there is a large issue and the actual data says that there isn't one. I'm not saying that you didn't experience the problem, and that there aren't complaints about it. What I am saying is that it isn't a giant issue affecting the entire line, beyond more than a small percentage of purchasers because the data does not say that it is one. Should the data show a shift, then the conclusion will change.
    I respectfully disagree (even knowing that you have access to the stats).
    That is the design issue affecting the entire line, which was confirmed many times (including Apple support people - 'functions as designed' looking at those photos). Look at the poll https://9to5mac.com/2018/12/02/some-2018-macbook-air-users-experiencing-poor-facetime-hd-camera-quality-are-you-poll/ near 80% (small percentage?) out of 4K people experience that. So far noone could present good (at least not seriously worse than Air 2017) quality photos made in less than 'Apple-grade perfect conditions'. Could you please by any chance do that, if you happen to have access to two devices? There was no single report of the scenario "I had a bad one, sent back for replacement, got the good one" - but there are numerous "replaced bad one with the same bad". I sincerely would like to see some hope here, some proof that there exists good Air 2018 devices with decent (not worse than Air 2017) camera. Then perhaps I would shut up on that issue forever. Please prove me wrong, not with statistics, just with the photos made on 2017 and 2018 devices. Proving that mythical "good-camera-enabled" Air 2018 exist at all.
    PS. BTW, there was a huge thread on Apple support website about it. What did Apple do? Deleted it. Now, there are smaller threads but they still grow.
    Now I'm starting to wonder if you read the article, since the only comments you've made here, ever, have been about this camera. There is a side-by-side in this very article you're commenting on, and in the video.

    You're welcome to disagree based on your own problem and a disproportionately loud forum-going population, but data is data. Also, regarding the support forums, casual users who get their problem solved have a tendency to not return and report success, which is why we can use it as a general proof of life (or death, as the case may be), but can't use it for actual data.
    I definitely read the article, including those 2 photos. They are made exactly in the conditions I described as 'Apple-grade perfect conditions'. In particular, the bluish shade of white, and very bright environment. For home users, the light is slightly less bright (and the white is of yellowish shade) - in those conditions Air 2017 works fairly well, 2018 is a disaster.
    I would really love to see the Apple service data about it, but I suspect you are under DNA (sorry, that slightly undermines my trust for obvious reason...). I can only operate publicly available data - polls, forums etc (accepting your comments about the necessary bias of those sources...). Oddly enough, with this story going on since November, you are the first person I am talking to trying to claim there is no design issue here...
    I am absolutely sure at this stage that if we would have at least one case 'Air exchange solved my problem' - it would be reported. I m sure of that just because the number of affected users is fairly large. Also, it would be very difficult to explain the large number of users saying 'replaced did not fix my problem'. What are the chances of the shells hitting the ground in the very same location?

    BTW, another fact established on forums is that MacBook Pro 2018 with touchbar has the same issue (the camera is just slightly better than Air 2018). Good cameras ended with Air 2017 and touchbar-less Pros. Kudos to Apple.
    edited February 10
  • Reply 47 of 63

    sudaltsov said:
    sudaltsov said:
    sudaltsov said:
    I cannot believe you did not mention the cameragate of the new one. There are plenty of images around there showing how dramatically worse the new camera became.
    https://www.macrumors.com/guide/macbook-air-camera-quality-issue/
    Why? It is hardly a "gate," and service calls for the "issue" aren't statistically significant. As with any other issue, if you have a problem with a piece of Apple hardware, go to a service center and get a case number so it can be tracked.

    So far, the 2018 MacBook Air has about the same failure rate over the corresponding period of time as every other MacBook Air ever released past 2010, and a notably lower one than the original Air. If there was a widespread problem, it would manifest in the service data.

    Also? Watergate was the name of the hotel. The scandal in question wasn't about water. Adding -gate to things is... silly.
    If you look at the number of complains and returns on Apple support site (need links?) - you'll see it is serious statistics. And you'll see that all Apple can offer is 'yes we designed it that way, just return/replace and shutup if unhappy'. People do return those devices, in bulk. It is design issue, not an issue with individual items. Go to any Apple store, compare the camera of Air 2017 and Air 2018. You'll be surprised. I did that with at least 5 different stores in different countries. Also, I returned my Air 2018 for replacement - just to get the new one with the same horrible camera. Other people did that too. What other kind of proof do you need?

    "It would manifest in the service data" - do you have access to it? I doubt Apple publishes it.

    BTW "watergate" created a naming pattern, it is not a hotel name anymore. There was antennagate with iPhone ;)
    I have access to return data as well. There is no increase over any other model. And yes, I have access to a pretty large subset of the entire set of Apple's service data going back to 2010. It is where the keyboard failure numbers came from.

    I'm aware of the naming pattern. It was stupid during every other -gate too.

    What kind of proof I need is actual data supporting the fact that there is a large issue and the actual data says that there isn't one. I'm not saying that you didn't experience the problem, and that there aren't complaints about it. What I am saying is that it isn't a giant issue affecting the entire line, beyond more than a small percentage of purchasers because the data does not say that it is one. Should the data show a shift, then the conclusion will change.
    I respectfully disagree (even knowing that you have access to the stats).
    That is the design issue affecting the entire line, which was confirmed many times (including Apple support people - 'functions as designed' looking at those photos). Look at the poll https://9to5mac.com/2018/12/02/some-2018-macbook-air-users-experiencing-poor-facetime-hd-camera-quality-are-you-poll/ near 80% (small percentage?) out of 4K people experience that. So far noone could present good (at least not seriously worse than Air 2017) quality photos made in less than 'Apple-grade perfect conditions'. Could you please by any chance do that, if you happen to have access to two devices? There was no single report of the scenario "I had a bad one, sent back for replacement, got the good one" - but there are numerous "replaced bad one with the same bad". I sincerely would like to see some hope here, some proof that there exists good Air 2018 devices with decent (not worse than Air 2017) camera. Then perhaps I would shut up on that issue forever. Please prove me wrong, not with statistics, just with the photos made on 2017 and 2018 devices. Proving that mythical "good-camera-enabled" Air 2018 exist at all.
    PS. BTW, there was a huge thread on Apple support website about it. What did Apple do? Deleted it. Now, there are smaller threads but they still grow.
    Now I'm starting to wonder if you read the article, since the only comments you've made here, ever, have been about this camera. There is a side-by-side in this very article you're commenting on, and in the video.

    You're welcome to disagree based on your own problem and a disproportionately loud forum-going population, but data is data. Also, regarding the support forums, casual users who get their problem solved have a tendency to not return and report success, which is why we can use it as a general proof of life (or death, as the case may be), but can't use it for actual data.
    Did anyone got a key that’s clicking, but not registered.
    I think I remembered some does.
  • Reply 48 of 63
    What about all the reports on reddit and elsewhere about keyboard problems on the 2018 MacAir?  I want to replace my 2010 Macbook but I am nervous about buying something with endless keyboard problems.  One of my sons has a recent Macbook Pro - he has to use canned air on it about every week to keep the keyboard half working.  That is what the Apple Store in Minneapolis/St. Paul told him to do.

    I am am considering the 2018 Macbook Air, the 2017 Macbook Air, or the early 2015 Macbook Pro.  The later two  have the old scissors keyboard is my understanding. 

    My wife and I travel internationally for months at a time.  I don't want keyboard problems while we are traveling.
    We've talked about the keyboard failure rates already at some length. In short, while the 2016 did have a higher rate of failure than the previous design, the 2017 returned it to about the same rate as the previous design. In both cases, it wasn't a massive increase in failures overall, and the machine in total fails less often than the 2012-2015 design over the same timeframe.

    We have the same data on the MacBook Air. There isn't a giant increase in failure rates on the keyboard versus the previous design as of yet, but we are still watching it.

    If the keyboard is "half-working," the MSP Apple Store should replace the keyboard. There is a zero-cost service program for it.

    Apocryphally, my 2016 MacBook Pro keyboard was used to generate about half the content I delivered here on AI until I got a 2018 late in the year. No failure. We've had one keyboard failure across the entire staff, spanning 15 MacBook Pros.
    It's not the failure rates are higher, but that when failures DO occur, they are exponentially more expensive. The old design, if the keyboard failed, only a new keyboard was needed. Now, if the keyboard fails, a keyboard, motherboard (and all included components, including memory, storage, CPU, GPU, everything) and a top chassis are all needed. This is a terrible design decision, and one that is definitely the bad side of form over function. I quite like the feel of the new butterfly keys, they are very satisfying to me, but that repair process is a complete failure.
  • Reply 49 of 63
    ivanhivanh Posts: 286member
    Every component is better and cheaper. Why are Apple product getting more expensive? Executives and investors are getting richer?
    sudaltsov
  • Reply 50 of 63
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 4,196administrator
    AF_Hitt said:
    What about all the reports on reddit and elsewhere about keyboard problems on the 2018 MacAir?  I want to replace my 2010 Macbook but I am nervous about buying something with endless keyboard problems.  One of my sons has a recent Macbook Pro - he has to use canned air on it about every week to keep the keyboard half working.  That is what the Apple Store in Minneapolis/St. Paul told him to do.

    I am am considering the 2018 Macbook Air, the 2017 Macbook Air, or the early 2015 Macbook Pro.  The later two  have the old scissors keyboard is my understanding. 

    My wife and I travel internationally for months at a time.  I don't want keyboard problems while we are traveling.
    We've talked about the keyboard failure rates already at some length. In short, while the 2016 did have a higher rate of failure than the previous design, the 2017 returned it to about the same rate as the previous design. In both cases, it wasn't a massive increase in failures overall, and the machine in total fails less often than the 2012-2015 design over the same timeframe.

    We have the same data on the MacBook Air. There isn't a giant increase in failure rates on the keyboard versus the previous design as of yet, but we are still watching it.

    If the keyboard is "half-working," the MSP Apple Store should replace the keyboard. There is a zero-cost service program for it.

    Apocryphally, my 2016 MacBook Pro keyboard was used to generate about half the content I delivered here on AI until I got a 2018 late in the year. No failure. We've had one keyboard failure across the entire staff, spanning 15 MacBook Pros.
    It's not the failure rates are higher, but that when failures DO occur, they are exponentially more expensive. The old design, if the keyboard failed, only a new keyboard was needed. Now, if the keyboard fails, a keyboard, motherboard (and all included components, including memory, storage, CPU, GPU, everything) and a top chassis are all needed. This is a terrible design decision, and one that is definitely the bad side of form over function. I quite like the feel of the new butterfly keys, they are very satisfying to me, but that repair process is a complete failure.
    This isn’t what’s required, nor with the old Retina design was it just the keyboard able to be replaced. In the case of a keyboard failure on either model, the “upper case” assembly must be replaced on the current model, and all the way back to the 2012 Retina MacBook Pro. I'm not sure where you get the "all included components" part. The "upper case" is the battery, upper case metal, and keyboard. It didn't include the trackpad in the 2012-2015, and off the top of my head at this moment, I don't know if it includes it on the 2016-2018.

    It is an expensive part. It is not an entirely new machine, though. It isn't new to the 2016. The cost of a 2012 - 2015 keyboard repair and a 2016-2018 are within $45.
    edited February 11 fastasleep
  • Reply 51 of 63
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 4,196administrator
    sudaltsov said:

    sudaltsov said:
    sudaltsov said:
    sudaltsov said:
    I cannot believe you did not mention the cameragate of the new one. There are plenty of images around there showing how dramatically worse the new camera became.
    https://www.macrumors.com/guide/macbook-air-camera-quality-issue/
    Why? It is hardly a "gate," and service calls for the "issue" aren't statistically significant. As with any other issue, if you have a problem with a piece of Apple hardware, go to a service center and get a case number so it can be tracked.

    So far, the 2018 MacBook Air has about the same failure rate over the corresponding period of time as every other MacBook Air ever released past 2010, and a notably lower one than the original Air. If there was a widespread problem, it would manifest in the service data.

    Also? Watergate was the name of the hotel. The scandal in question wasn't about water. Adding -gate to things is... silly.
    If you look at the number of complains and returns on Apple support site (need links?) - you'll see it is serious statistics. And you'll see that all Apple can offer is 'yes we designed it that way, just return/replace and shutup if unhappy'. People do return those devices, in bulk. It is design issue, not an issue with individual items. Go to any Apple store, compare the camera of Air 2017 and Air 2018. You'll be surprised. I did that with at least 5 different stores in different countries. Also, I returned my Air 2018 for replacement - just to get the new one with the same horrible camera. Other people did that too. What other kind of proof do you need?

    "It would manifest in the service data" - do you have access to it? I doubt Apple publishes it.

    BTW "watergate" created a naming pattern, it is not a hotel name anymore. There was antennagate with iPhone ;)
    I have access to return data as well. There is no increase over any other model. And yes, I have access to a pretty large subset of the entire set of Apple's service data going back to 2010. It is where the keyboard failure numbers came from.

    I'm aware of the naming pattern. It was stupid during every other -gate too.

    What kind of proof I need is actual data supporting the fact that there is a large issue and the actual data says that there isn't one. I'm not saying that you didn't experience the problem, and that there aren't complaints about it. What I am saying is that it isn't a giant issue affecting the entire line, beyond more than a small percentage of purchasers because the data does not say that it is one. Should the data show a shift, then the conclusion will change.
    I respectfully disagree (even knowing that you have access to the stats).
    That is the design issue affecting the entire line, which was confirmed many times (including Apple support people - 'functions as designed' looking at those photos). Look at the poll https://9to5mac.com/2018/12/02/some-2018-macbook-air-users-experiencing-poor-facetime-hd-camera-quality-are-you-poll/ near 80% (small percentage?) out of 4K people experience that. So far noone could present good (at least not seriously worse than Air 2017) quality photos made in less than 'Apple-grade perfect conditions'. Could you please by any chance do that, if you happen to have access to two devices? There was no single report of the scenario "I had a bad one, sent back for replacement, got the good one" - but there are numerous "replaced bad one with the same bad". I sincerely would like to see some hope here, some proof that there exists good Air 2018 devices with decent (not worse than Air 2017) camera. Then perhaps I would shut up on that issue forever. Please prove me wrong, not with statistics, just with the photos made on 2017 and 2018 devices. Proving that mythical "good-camera-enabled" Air 2018 exist at all.
    PS. BTW, there was a huge thread on Apple support website about it. What did Apple do? Deleted it. Now, there are smaller threads but they still grow.
    Now I'm starting to wonder if you read the article, since the only comments you've made here, ever, have been about this camera. There is a side-by-side in this very article you're commenting on, and in the video.

    You're welcome to disagree based on your own problem and a disproportionately loud forum-going population, but data is data. Also, regarding the support forums, casual users who get their problem solved have a tendency to not return and report success, which is why we can use it as a general proof of life (or death, as the case may be), but can't use it for actual data.
    I definitely read the article, including those 2 photos. They are made exactly in the conditions I described as 'Apple-grade perfect conditions'. In particular, the bluish shade of white, and very bright environment. For home users, the light is slightly less bright (and the white is of yellowish shade) - in those conditions Air 2017 works fairly well, 2018 is a disaster.
    I would really love to see the Apple service data about it, but I suspect you are under DNA (sorry, that slightly undermines my trust for obvious reason...). I can only operate publicly available data - polls, forums etc (accepting your comments about the necessary bias of those sources...). Oddly enough, with this story going on since November, you are the first person I am talking to trying to claim there is no design issue here...
    I am absolutely sure at this stage that if we would have at least one case 'Air exchange solved my problem' - it would be reported. I m sure of that just because the number of affected users is fairly large. Also, it would be very difficult to explain the large number of users saying 'replaced did not fix my problem'. What are the chances of the shells hitting the ground in the very same location?

    BTW, another fact established on forums is that MacBook Pro 2018 with touchbar has the same issue (the camera is just slightly better than Air 2018). Good cameras ended with Air 2017 and touchbar-less Pros. Kudos to Apple.
    For what it's worth, the picture was taken at Vadim's desk. and not in a studio environment. To be clear about what I'm saying, I am not saying that there is absolutely no design issue -- what I am saying is that there is no affirmative proof of one in the service data. There is plenty of anecdotal data from pissed off people, but there isn't as of yet a corresponding number of returns or service claims on the hardware.

    "What are the chances of the shells hitting the ground in the very same location?" -- I'm not sure I understand what you mean with this?
    edited February 11
  • Reply 52 of 63
    GovindadazGovindadaz Posts: 1unconfirmed, member
    Its February 2019 and I have been very patiently awaiting a decent upgrade to my super old 2007 macbook, that hasn,t had any issues in all that time, except a hd crash. I replaced it with an ssd and got a stellar improvement. 
    I have been following THE KEYBOARD ISSUE, for some time now, and when push came to shove, I decided AGAINST the new macbook air 2018, because the issue is obviously a design issue. When I found out my friend had a 2017 pro, I checked in with him. Indeed, his "e" is fecked. Apple used a band-aid solution, and avoided a recall due to the impending law suits. I can,t believe they actually kept the same design for the new air, as its defective design. This is common sense. But, alas, I speculate. To me 60,000 signees to the law suit, means its a design flaw. " A few affected keyboards...."
    Phhfff
    GeorgeBMac
  • Reply 53 of 63
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 4,196administrator
    Its February 2019 and I have been very patiently awaiting a decent upgrade to my super old 2007 macbook, that hasn,t had any issues in all that time, except a hd crash. I replaced it with an ssd and got a stellar improvement. 
    I have been following THE KEYBOARD ISSUE, for some time now, and when push came to shove, I decided AGAINST the new macbook air 2018, because the issue is obviously a design issue. When I found out my friend had a 2017 pro, I checked in with him. Indeed, his "e" is fecked. Apple used a band-aid solution, and avoided a recall due to the impending law suits. I can,t believe they actually kept the same design for the new air, as its defective design. This is common sense. But, alas, I speculate. To me 60,000 signees to the law suit, means its a design flaw. " A few affected keyboards...."
    Phhfff
    Here's the problem with the signees thing: 60,000 people across over two years of about 10 million sales a year of the model line per year with potentially impacted keyboards isn't a lot. That is 0.24 percent of the installed base. Even if you multiply that by a factor of 10, that's 600,000 people screaming on the internet that their keyboards have failed, and still about 1 in 40 keyboards.

    To be clear, we aren't thrilled with the failure rates on the 2016. But, with the screaming about it, you'd think that it's 100%, and it is far, far from that.
    edited February 11 thtchia
  • Reply 54 of 63
    The old MacBook Air has a great keyboard with lots of travel and tactile feedback.

    Whereas the keyboard on the new MacBook Air is HORRIBLE. There is barely any key travel or tactile response. 

    It’s such a shame because the new MacBook Air could have been a fabulous machine with a nice screen and solid processor - but is ruined by a ridiculously shallow keyboard! 
  • Reply 55 of 63
    sudaltsovsudaltsov Posts: 10unconfirmed, member
    sudaltsov said:

    sudaltsov said:
    sudaltsov said:
    sudaltsov said:
    I cannot believe you did not mention the cameragate of the new one. There are plenty of images around there showing how dramatically worse the new camera became.
    https://www.macrumors.com/guide/macbook-air-camera-quality-issue/
    Why? It is hardly a "gate," and service calls for the "issue" aren't statistically significant. As with any other issue, if you have a problem with a piece of Apple hardware, go to a service center and get a case number so it can be tracked.

    So far, the 2018 MacBook Air has about the same failure rate over the corresponding period of time as every other MacBook Air ever released past 2010, and a notably lower one than the original Air. If there was a widespread problem, it would manifest in the service data.

    Also? Watergate was the name of the hotel. The scandal in question wasn't about water. Adding -gate to things is... silly.
    If you look at the number of complains and returns on Apple support site (need links?) - you'll see it is serious statistics. And you'll see that all Apple can offer is 'yes we designed it that way, just return/replace and shutup if unhappy'. People do return those devices, in bulk. It is design issue, not an issue with individual items. Go to any Apple store, compare the camera of Air 2017 and Air 2018. You'll be surprised. I did that with at least 5 different stores in different countries. Also, I returned my Air 2018 for replacement - just to get the new one with the same horrible camera. Other people did that too. What other kind of proof do you need?

    "It would manifest in the service data" - do you have access to it? I doubt Apple publishes it.

    BTW "watergate" created a naming pattern, it is not a hotel name anymore. There was antennagate with iPhone ;)
    I have access to return data as well. There is no increase over any other model. And yes, I have access to a pretty large subset of the entire set of Apple's service data going back to 2010. It is where the keyboard failure numbers came from.

    I'm aware of the naming pattern. It was stupid during every other -gate too.

    What kind of proof I need is actual data supporting the fact that there is a large issue and the actual data says that there isn't one. I'm not saying that you didn't experience the problem, and that there aren't complaints about it. What I am saying is that it isn't a giant issue affecting the entire line, beyond more than a small percentage of purchasers because the data does not say that it is one. Should the data show a shift, then the conclusion will change.
    I respectfully disagree (even knowing that you have access to the stats).
    That is the design issue affecting the entire line, which was confirmed many times (including Apple support people - 'functions as designed' looking at those photos). Look at the poll https://9to5mac.com/2018/12/02/some-2018-macbook-air-users-experiencing-poor-facetime-hd-camera-quality-are-you-poll/ near 80% (small percentage?) out of 4K people experience that. So far noone could present good (at least not seriously worse than Air 2017) quality photos made in less than 'Apple-grade perfect conditions'. Could you please by any chance do that, if you happen to have access to two devices? There was no single report of the scenario "I had a bad one, sent back for replacement, got the good one" - but there are numerous "replaced bad one with the same bad". I sincerely would like to see some hope here, some proof that there exists good Air 2018 devices with decent (not worse than Air 2017) camera. Then perhaps I would shut up on that issue forever. Please prove me wrong, not with statistics, just with the photos made on 2017 and 2018 devices. Proving that mythical "good-camera-enabled" Air 2018 exist at all.
    PS. BTW, there was a huge thread on Apple support website about it. What did Apple do? Deleted it. Now, there are smaller threads but they still grow.
    Now I'm starting to wonder if you read the article, since the only comments you've made here, ever, have been about this camera. There is a side-by-side in this very article you're commenting on, and in the video.

    You're welcome to disagree based on your own problem and a disproportionately loud forum-going population, but data is data. Also, regarding the support forums, casual users who get their problem solved have a tendency to not return and report success, which is why we can use it as a general proof of life (or death, as the case may be), but can't use it for actual data.
    I definitely read the article, including those 2 photos. They are made exactly in the conditions I described as 'Apple-grade perfect conditions'. In particular, the bluish shade of white, and very bright environment. For home users, the light is slightly less bright (and the white is of yellowish shade) - in those conditions Air 2017 works fairly well, 2018 is a disaster.
    I would really love to see the Apple service data about it, but I suspect you are under DNA (sorry, that slightly undermines my trust for obvious reason...). I can only operate publicly available data - polls, forums etc (accepting your comments about the necessary bias of those sources...). Oddly enough, with this story going on since November, you are the first person I am talking to trying to claim there is no design issue here...
    I am absolutely sure at this stage that if we would have at least one case 'Air exchange solved my problem' - it would be reported. I m sure of that just because the number of affected users is fairly large. Also, it would be very difficult to explain the large number of users saying 'replaced did not fix my problem'. What are the chances of the shells hitting the ground in the very same location?

    BTW, another fact established on forums is that MacBook Pro 2018 with touchbar has the same issue (the camera is just slightly better than Air 2018). Good cameras ended with Air 2017 and touchbar-less Pros. Kudos to Apple.
    For what it's worth, the picture was taken at Vadim's desk. and not in a studio environment. To be clear about what I'm saying, I am not saying that there is absolutely no design issue -- what I am saying is that there is no affirmative proof of one in the service data. There is plenty of anecdotal data from pissed off people, but there isn't as of yet a corresponding number of returns or service claims on the hardware.

    "What are the chances of the shells hitting the ground in the very same location?" -- I'm not sure I understand what you mean with this?
    It is not a studio, right, but as I said earlier, plenty of 'cold' white light. If the light becomes slightly warmer or less intensive - the image quickly becomes unacceptable.
    About the 'shell' (artillery analogue) - my question was about the numerous scenarios  (including myself!) when people get replacement Air with exactly same camera issue. If it would be a defect of a particular item - what are the chances to get replacement with the same defect? What are the changes of multiple people having the same odd coincidence?

    Please kindly check https://discussions.apple.com/thread/8624233?answerId=250289610022#250289610022 ;
    Just today, another report: "me and the Apple store guy compared the cameras on all of the MacBook Airs in store, and it turns out they all have really grainy camera quality" (and there are some photos).
  • Reply 56 of 63
    sudaltsovsudaltsov Posts: 10unconfirmed, member
    sudaltsov said:

    sudaltsov said:
    sudaltsov said:
    sudaltsov said:
    I cannot believe you did not mention the cameragate of the new one. There are plenty of images around there showing how dramatically worse the new camera became.
    https://www.macrumors.com/guide/macbook-air-camera-quality-issue/
    Why? It is hardly a "gate," and service calls for the "issue" aren't statistically significant. As with any other issue, if you have a problem with a piece of Apple hardware, go to a service center and get a case number so it can be tracked.

    So far, the 2018 MacBook Air has about the same failure rate over the corresponding period of time as every other MacBook Air ever released past 2010, and a notably lower one than the original Air. If there was a widespread problem, it would manifest in the service data.

    Also? Watergate was the name of the hotel. The scandal in question wasn't about water. Adding -gate to things is... silly.
    If you look at the number of complains and returns on Apple support site (need links?) - you'll see it is serious statistics. And you'll see that all Apple can offer is 'yes we designed it that way, just return/replace and shutup if unhappy'. People do return those devices, in bulk. It is design issue, not an issue with individual items. Go to any Apple store, compare the camera of Air 2017 and Air 2018. You'll be surprised. I did that with at least 5 different stores in different countries. Also, I returned my Air 2018 for replacement - just to get the new one with the same horrible camera. Other people did that too. What other kind of proof do you need?

    "It would manifest in the service data" - do you have access to it? I doubt Apple publishes it.

    BTW "watergate" created a naming pattern, it is not a hotel name anymore. There was antennagate with iPhone ;)
    I have access to return data as well. There is no increase over any other model. And yes, I have access to a pretty large subset of the entire set of Apple's service data going back to 2010. It is where the keyboard failure numbers came from.

    I'm aware of the naming pattern. It was stupid during every other -gate too.

    What kind of proof I need is actual data supporting the fact that there is a large issue and the actual data says that there isn't one. I'm not saying that you didn't experience the problem, and that there aren't complaints about it. What I am saying is that it isn't a giant issue affecting the entire line, beyond more than a small percentage of purchasers because the data does not say that it is one. Should the data show a shift, then the conclusion will change.
    I respectfully disagree (even knowing that you have access to the stats).
    That is the design issue affecting the entire line, which was confirmed many times (including Apple support people - 'functions as designed' looking at those photos). Look at the poll https://9to5mac.com/2018/12/02/some-2018-macbook-air-users-experiencing-poor-facetime-hd-camera-quality-are-you-poll/ near 80% (small percentage?) out of 4K people experience that. So far noone could present good (at least not seriously worse than Air 2017) quality photos made in less than 'Apple-grade perfect conditions'. Could you please by any chance do that, if you happen to have access to two devices? There was no single report of the scenario "I had a bad one, sent back for replacement, got the good one" - but there are numerous "replaced bad one with the same bad". I sincerely would like to see some hope here, some proof that there exists good Air 2018 devices with decent (not worse than Air 2017) camera. Then perhaps I would shut up on that issue forever. Please prove me wrong, not with statistics, just with the photos made on 2017 and 2018 devices. Proving that mythical "good-camera-enabled" Air 2018 exist at all.
    PS. BTW, there was a huge thread on Apple support website about it. What did Apple do? Deleted it. Now, there are smaller threads but they still grow.
    Now I'm starting to wonder if you read the article, since the only comments you've made here, ever, have been about this camera. There is a side-by-side in this very article you're commenting on, and in the video.

    You're welcome to disagree based on your own problem and a disproportionately loud forum-going population, but data is data. Also, regarding the support forums, casual users who get their problem solved have a tendency to not return and report success, which is why we can use it as a general proof of life (or death, as the case may be), but can't use it for actual data.
    I definitely read the article, including those 2 photos. They are made exactly in the conditions I described as 'Apple-grade perfect conditions'. In particular, the bluish shade of white, and very bright environment. For home users, the light is slightly less bright (and the white is of yellowish shade) - in those conditions Air 2017 works fairly well, 2018 is a disaster.
    I would really love to see the Apple service data about it, but I suspect you are under DNA (sorry, that slightly undermines my trust for obvious reason...). I can only operate publicly available data - polls, forums etc (accepting your comments about the necessary bias of those sources...). Oddly enough, with this story going on since November, you are the first person I am talking to trying to claim there is no design issue here...
    I am absolutely sure at this stage that if we would have at least one case 'Air exchange solved my problem' - it would be reported. I m sure of that just because the number of affected users is fairly large. Also, it would be very difficult to explain the large number of users saying 'replaced did not fix my problem'. What are the chances of the shells hitting the ground in the very same location?

    BTW, another fact established on forums is that MacBook Pro 2018 with touchbar has the same issue (the camera is just slightly better than Air 2018). Good cameras ended with Air 2017 and touchbar-less Pros. Kudos to Apple.
    For what it's worth, the picture was taken at Vadim's desk. and not in a studio environment. To be clear about what I'm saying, I am not saying that there is absolutely no design issue -- what I am saying is that there is no affirmative proof of one in the service data. There is plenty of anecdotal data from pissed off people, but there isn't as of yet a corresponding number of returns or service claims on the hardware.

    "What are the chances of the shells hitting the ground in the very same location?" -- I'm not sure I understand what you mean with this?
    First photo is made with Air 2018, 2nd one is Air 2013. See the difference? That was my second Air 2018 after replacement (no camera improvement after Apple sent the replacement).

    edited February 11 chia
  • Reply 57 of 63
    No, I disagree....   Even ignoring the $200 price difference, I still prefer the 2017 because of the better keyboard and the fact that the SSD can be replaced or upgraded when needed.

    Yes, the 2018 has a better screen.   But I find the 2017 screen to be fine -- the same with the sound.

    The only significant advantage I see to the new one is the size.  But otherwise, I like the old one.
    ... Yes, the 2018 has upgraded some stuff.  But the upgrades are minor and what they took away is significant.   The trade-offs are not worth it.

    I think we would have been better off if Apple had kept the stuff we liked and upgraded the stuff that they could.  I think they should have kept the keyboard, SSD and the real I5 processor instead of the renamed M series).

    Added:   I forgot the A series ports and the MagSafe connector.  Those are nice.
    Just because you prefer older, inferior tech doesn't mean everyone does. The upgrades are not minor. Why do you want the old i5 processor if the new one is ~20-30% faster? Ridiculous.
    chia
  • Reply 58 of 63
    M68000 said:
    The lit up logo on the back of the screen is gone, miss that too, it really was a distinctive thing from the old Air that really shows it off in the crowd. 
    Yes, nothing like showing off your old Air out in a sea of glowing Apple logos.
  • Reply 59 of 63

    M68000 said:
    I have the new Air for over a month now...  generally very pleased with it.   I do miss the Mag safe connector with the LED indicator on it, that was a very cool thing.  The lit up logo on the back of the screen is gone, miss that too, it really was a distinctive thing from the old Air that really shows it off in the crowd.  However, the new Air is very close in size to the 11" Air I had for 8 years.  Love the size.   The old keyboard was so familiar but the new one is not that bad after you use if for a while.  It has been hard to keep the screen clean for some reason - it is a dust magnet.   Every tiny speck of crumb or dirt you have on the keyboard will find its way onto the screen the next time you open the laptop up.  Trying to find out what is best liquid and type of rag to clean this with.   You definitely don't want to eat while using this laptop because of the crumbs and dirt.  I am glad we still have the old school headphone jack on it - LOL...  I use it of course.   The screen quality is great.  I don't know why anyone would now buy the older Air model at this point, despite having to deal with usb-c dongles and no SD card reader (the 11" Air never had the SD reader).  I have the $39 SD card reader to hook into the Air and it works fine.
    I am perplexed in what got into Apple here...

    The most complimentary thing I have heard about these butterfly keyboards is that they're "not that bad after you use if for a while".  Their only positive comparison seems to be to a on-screen keyboard such as on an iPad.

    I
    f they added something I could see it.   But these keyboards only seem to detract from the user experience while offering zero benefit in return.

    What is going on at Apple?
    Here's another data point to invalidate your claim — I love the keyboard on my 2018 MBP, I think it's my favorite to date, and I'm a more efficient typist on it. Going back to typing on a previous gen keyboard while fixing a friend's machine was not pleasant to me, I'll take the new one anytime.
  • Reply 60 of 63

    sudaltsov said:
    I cannot believe you did not mention the cameragate of the new one. There are plenty of images around there showing how dramatically worse the new camera became.
    https://www.macrumors.com/guide/macbook-air-camera-quality-issue/


    ^ This is scandal-worthy? Give me a break.
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