I have disagreed with some of this practice, but I can't disagree with all of it. When someone is posting about how their WT are thieves, their money is being stolen, it will never be delivered, etc, then it is appropriate to refund them. After all, what sane person would actually believe those things yet still keep their order? Now, I can imagine lots of people being worried about eventual delivery, but being willing to continue to take the risk. But those people would be posting differently. I can also see a person getting angry and saying such exaggerated things when, in fact they don't believe them. Think of when a kid says they "hate" their parents - they actually don't, but they are mad and say silly things.
So, in these kinds of cases, it makes sense to cancel them. If the person really believes what they say, they have no logical reason to want to keep their order. If they just lost control for a moment and posted something they really didn't mean, they can reorder and keep their place in line.
I do hope this is the month we finally get the update. And while I am quite sure there will be things we'd like to know that they won't tell (nor should they), I certainly hope there is a lot of info we want. It certainly won't include a shipping date. We already know that the update comes first, followed later by Treg testing (we don't know how much later), and we certainly don't know how long that will last because, until we test, we don't know if we'll find problems.
dabigkahuna said: I do hope this is the month we finally get the update. And while I am quite sure there will be things we'd like to know that they won't tell (nor should they), I certainly hope there is a lot of info we want. It certainly won't include a shipping date. We already know that the update comes first, followed later by Treg testing (we don't know how much later), and we certainly don't know how long that will last because, until we test, we don't know if we'll find problems.
Yes, but the update could be comprehensive enough to give not only a sense of the status of the firmware but convery also a sense of when GR COULD materialize given a set of assumptions, ie if after 3 months of TREG testing ok we move to production and shipping, etc
On the enforced refunds topic: I disagree with you. Feels like crossing a line that should not be crossed. I am not aware of any other company doing the same. People should not need to write in posts in the RANTS section of WTF "please don't cancel my order". Every time I read that phrase I inwardly cringe. Don't criticize Ford because they might come and reposes your car in the middle of the night. Oh but they deposit the money right away, so it must be ok, right? No, it is not.
Yes, but the update could be comprehensive enough to give not only a sense of the status of the firmware but convery also a sense of when GR COULD materialize given a set of assumptions, ie if after 3 months of TREG testing ok we move to production and shipping, etc
On the enforced refunds topic: I disagree with you. Feels like crossing a line that should not be crossed. I am not aware of any other company doing the same. People should not need to write in posts in the RANTS section of WTF "please don't cancel my order". Every time I read that phrase I inwardly cringe. Don't criticize Ford because they might come and reposes your car in the middle of the night. Oh but they deposit the money right away, so it must be ok, right? No, it is not.
1. I've advocated for stuff like that - that is, IF (big "if") Treg finds no bugs you need to fix before shipping, how long would you keep Treg testing going just to be sure it is okay? When Treg started, it was 2-3 weeks, I think. My guess is that time it would be a month and maybe more. They've never given a rough number before on this. Maybe they will this time. I know some stuff they won't say because some information is useful to competitors, though it may not seem obvious in many cases. I don't see a problem with this, but that doesn't mean I'm right about giving us that information. But I can see how they would not want to say that anyway because people see the time range, but ignore the qualifier about how it only applies if there are no problems to deal with that Treg discovers. That isn't an idle concern. It is exactly what happened with the start of Treg. A bunch of people started talking about how WT "promised" it would only last 2-3 weeks before GR. They never said any such thing, but we still see people saying it!
2. I disagree with you
At least in the extreme cases I mentioned. In other, lesser cases, I'd probably agree with you. And then there would be a bunch in between where I wouldn't be sure where to draw the line. But, otoh, I think it is pretty generous of them, when they do cancel in these extreme cases, that they let the person keep their place in line if they reorder. Regardless of whether you think they should or shouldn't cancel orders, since they are doing that, I would not have expected they would allow someone to keep their spot.
There are actually a number of things that really surprise me in related areas (granted, they don't mean much until they ship). Some I can recall without researching:
1 year warranty
1 year replacement if they come out with a better version (true, they could wait a full year an then do an upgrade, but that isn't the point. It is about how a lot of people got ticked off at Apple one year when they came out with a new iPad and then within 6 months they came out with an improved one!
VERY low price for what the TextBlade does. And I say that even if the price does go up - even if they didn't include anything more than the present version. I'd pay $300 knowing what I know now - which includes the fact that I don't need separate keyboards for desktop, iPad, etc.
Very low replacement price if you ruin your device.
None of this will make people happy until it ships. But once it does, these are really huge things. And if people don't think it will ever ship, well, why would they keep their order?
In their very next post in response to how that unambiguous "Yes" sounded different than previous so-called estimates, they gave a similarly unambiguous "It is". That is to say, Waytools is clearly affirming that their 2019 GR date (2 posts prior) is a higher level of commitment/confidence than their previous so-called estimates. That is not a mere "expectation".
Oh, but I’d say it is still an expectation. Certainly, until it is actually released, nothing can be guaranteed. So it is true they seem to have more confidence in this expectation than others, but I sure didn’t take it as “assured”!
The question was: "Will 2019 finally be when we see the Textblade after all these years?" To which Waytools replied: "Yes"
We seem to have become so used to Waytools lying that words so simple and definitive as "Yes" has lost its meaning. There are many other words that can convey doubt, ambiguity, uncertainty, expectations, etc. -- but "Yes" is not one of them. I mean, which part of "Yes" do you not understand?
How low can Waytool's credibility be when their "Yes" leaves so much doubt? The answer is apparently zero. They follow it up with "It is" only because apparently no one believed them. But that followup does nothing to buttress their zero credibility.
Their "Yes" is yet another lie in the making. It's not an estimate, or projection, an expectation, a guess -- a poor one or otherwise. The word is binary. They ship in 2019 or they don't. And if I were a betting man, given their history, my money's on them NOT delivering. To give them any wiggle room to this "Yes" would be to tantamount to redefining the English language, and throwing all words in it into doubt. Definitive words like "YES" and "NO" exist to combat the loose nature of language in general and its tendency to be festered with weasel words. If "Yes" is open to interpretations to mean anything from "probably", "maybe" all the way to "maybe not", "possibly unlikely perhaps", how is anyone to communicate at all?
Being consistent in what one says can also be a symptom of someone sticking to the truth.
Another way to stick to the truth would be to avoid equivocation on a word like 'shipped'. In a retail context it means shipping product to its new owners, not sending to testers review units which are explicitly declared not to be their property.
The facts of the Textblade development could have been an epic and heroic story of a great vision supported by people willing to give the benefit of the doubt, if only the nature of the process had been openly admitted all along; if only there had been the courage to play it straight, rather than the apparent belief that being disingenuous to persuade people to give and let you keep money is a means justified by an end, which no matter how innovative and perfected the final product turns out, will never be true.
Amen brother. Sing it.
Two pallets of aging Textblades with expired batteries. Millions of dollars collected from 10,000+ customers? 4+ years. No product shipped. No keys for kids. Who has the money? Mark Knighton has the money.
The question was: "Will 2019 finally be when we see the Textblade after all these years?" To which Waytools replied: "Yes"
We seem to have become so used to Waytools lying that words so simple and definitive as "Yes" has lost its meaning. There are many other words that can convey doubt, ambiguity, uncertainty, expectations, etc. -- but "Yes" is not one of them. I mean, which part of "Yes" do you not understand?
It actually isn't that simple and we know it from everyday life where you aren't even dealing with new tech, which may have unexpected problems.
For example, your spouse asks if you can pick them up at at work at 5:00. You say "yes".
But you don't. If you only consider it is a computer-like binary thing, you must have lied! Except you didn't, because:
You had every EXPECTATION that you would do so.
You took every reasonable step to fulfill your agreement.
But your car got a flat tire, or broke down for some other reason, or there was a major accident on the way and you had no alternate route you could take when you realized it. Or you were in the accident. Or on the way you saw a woman being raped and rushed to save her, getting beat up yourself and taken to the hospital.
No doubt your spouse would be quite angry when you didn't show up on time. And no doubt, unless they were a very unreasonable person, they would understand when they found out why - and NOT say you lied.
So, in normal life, "yes" is not always binary when looking at the big picture. It may be binary as giving a choice of yes or no, but not in effect because other variables are also in play, even in a situation where you can gave far more confidence in what will happen.
You would simply have fully expected to do what you said. Thus your "yes" answer would have reflected your expectation.
As for this time being different ("It is"), I can think of plenty of reasons why it is different, starting with the fact that as they do the rewrite, they are doing so with the knowledge of all the things they learned the first time. Doesn't mean this difference guarantees shipping this year. But it would increase their expectations.
Two pallets of aging Textblades with expired batteries.
How do you know the batteries are expired?
We don't know when they were assembled - new batteries could be used when that step was done rather back when the parts were made.
But let's look at the worst case scenario - that they, with the battery, were made and assembled long enough ago that a customer wouldn't get the full life expectancy out of the battery. Okay, but so what?
If they are the units reserved for Treg, they aren't going to be the ones the Treg testers end up with anyway. They don't need to have batteries that are brand new now. They simply need to work well enough for testers to use them. Even my oldest unit runs plenty long enough, going days even with very heavy use. More than most would give it.
When they finalize everything, then it will be important to put new batteries in the new, GR, units. Which will also be sent to Treg testers.
I have disagreed with some of this practice, but I can't disagree with all of it. When someone is posting about how their WT are thieves, their money is being stolen, it will never be delivered, etc, then it is appropriate to refund them. After all, what sane person would actually believe those things yet still keep their order? Now, I can imagine lots of people being worried about eventual delivery, but being willing to continue to take the risk. But those people would be posting differently. I can also see a person getting angry and saying such exaggerated things when, in fact they don't believe them. Think of when a kid says they "hate" their parents - they actually don't, but they are mad and say silly things.
So, in these kinds of cases, it makes sense to cancel them. If the person really believes what they say, they have no logical reason to want to keep their order. If they just lost control for a moment and posted something they really didn't mean, they can reorder and keep their place in line.
Oh we don't care about a few users who cursed, went overboard on WTF and were promptly force-refunded. Most of us agreed and even applauded getting rid of them. We're not talking about them. Only Waytools and you keep referring to them, to rationalize Waytools' chaotic behaviors.
No, we're talking about users who followed the forum rules and how they were dealt with. And they far outnumber the ones that clearly broke the rules. If a user break the rules, close their account and force-refund. Fine. I certainly would not do this, but I can understand. What I don't understand is all the steps in between: shadow-banning so they can't start a thread, silencing your account so they can only like, disabling the account for an arbitrary amount of time, after which you can log back in, demoting your user level, etc.
These tactics serve no other purpose than to just mess with you. It's as if they're saying: "Your money's still good, but you're not" or "Come back later when you can be nice. Your money'll safe with us" or "We kinda sorta didn't like what you said so we demoted you, cuz, you know, we can". Of course, they never warn you beforehand. You just scratch your head while trying to figure it all out. And if you are able to post questions, they'll never answer you. Most of the times, you're not even able to ask, so you end up asking on places like here. And again, no answers.
There is no rhyme or reason why they do this to so many perfectly good forum citizens. Waytools often uses "misrepresentation" as the reason, which could mean virtually anything under creation, though I seriously doubt they know what the word really means. It just sounds good, I guess. And it's clear they won't tolerate sarcasm or humor, unless it's somehow used to sing their praises, and you better sing hard. Otherwise, they may somehow someway take it the wrong way and put you through the gauntlet of demotions, silencing, etc. If you still protest, or just protest at all, they will publicly humiliate you with something like: "You seem stressed by your order. We don't want to give you stress..." -- as if you're the whacko -- before performing force-refund (public execution style): "So we're forced to cancel your order."
"But," they always say. "If you change your mind, you can re-order within a week and keep your place in line." Which is to say, "You're a whack job, we don't like you, but your money's still good."
So, it's no wonder the majority of posts on WTF are birds singing to the choir. I know some are in earnest, excited equally by the textblade as they being chosen for TREG, but the rest you simply have to wonder. I don't see much counterpoints nor anyone taking Waytools to task. It's springtime there for Germany and Waytools Gestapo, while it's winter for Poland for the rest.
I have disagreed with some of this practice, but I can't disagree with all of it.
Oh we don't care about a few users who cursed, went overboard on WTF and were promptly force-refunded. Most of us agreed and even applauded getting rid of them. We're not talking about them. Only Waytools and you keep referring to them, to rationalize Waytools' chaotic behaviors.
I know some are in earnest, excited equally by the textblade as they being chosen for TREG, but the rest you simply have to wonder. I don't see much counterpoints nor anyone taking Waytools to task.
1. Two things here. First, I don't recall any critics agreeing that some should have been refunded. Might have happened, but I sure can't think of an example! At least not publicly applauding WT's decision. Second, nothing I said rationalized Waytools' decision on others - which you can tell by my statement, "I have disagreed with some of this practice". I think, if you look, you can even find me stating on their forum they do this too much for not enough reason.
2. Yet I've made posted plenty of criticisms. I have to wonder, does it only count if I throw in accusations like, "Liar" or "Gestapo"?
I've pointed out over and over that there is actually a lot of agreement on some criticisms of WayTools. But too many accusations against them are ridiculous, not to mention the attacks on me and other treggers. Such things serve no legitimate purpose, though I can think of plenty of illegitimate purposes. But for people who are trying to make a legitimate point, it just weakens their argument when it is mixed in with such extreme rhetoric.
The question was: "Will 2019 finally be when we see the Textblade after all these years?" To which Waytools replied: "Yes"
We seem to have become so used to Waytools lying that words so simple and definitive as "Yes" has lost its meaning. There are many other words that can convey doubt, ambiguity, uncertainty, expectations, etc. -- but "Yes" is not one of them. I mean, which part of "Yes" do you not understand?
It actually isn't that simple and we know it from everyday life where you aren't even dealing with new tech, which may have unexpected problems.
For example, your spouse asks if you can pick them up at at work at 5:00. You say "yes".
But you don't. If you only consider it is a computer-like binary thing, you must have lied! Except you didn't, because:
You had every EXPECTATION that you would do so.
You took every reasonable step to fulfill your agreement.
But your car got a flat tire, or broke down for some other reason, or there was a major accident on the way and you had no alternate route you could take when you realized it. Or you were in the accident. Or on the way you saw a woman being raped and rushed to save her, getting beat up yourself and taken to the hospital.
No doubt your spouse would be quite angry when you didn't show up on time. And no doubt, unless they were a very unreasonable person, they would understand when they found out why - and NOT say you lied.
So, in normal life, "yes" is not always binary when looking at the big picture. It may be binary as giving a choice of yes or no, but not in effect because other variables are also in play, even in a situation where you can gave far more confidence in what will happen.
You would simply have fully expected to do what you said. Thus your "yes" answer would have reflected your expectation.
As for this time being different ("It is"), I can think of plenty of reasons why it is different, starting with the fact that as they do the rewrite, they are doing so with the knowledge of all the things they learned the first time. Doesn't mean this difference guarantees shipping this year. But it would increase their expectations.
Oh Kahuna, you could have saved us a lot of words by just saying something like "How about if Mark's dumb dog ate all the pallets on Dec. 31st?" and it would have been just as ridiculous.
This is exactly what I mean by redefining words to the point they become meaningless. Who'd a thunk that "Yes" came with so much disclaimers -- when it doesn't? If they'd meant all those disclaimers in their "Yes" to a point-blank question, couldn't they have clued us in by decorating the word with an asterisk or just spelling out 'caveat emptor' or some such Latin, of which they're so fond? Otherwise, they could have used another one of many words with room for failure, yet is mostly affirmative. Or they simply could have not responded at all.
But tell you what... I'll bite. If there's no delivery by Jan 1, 2020, but Waytools can provide proof that they were hampered by an accident, hospitalization (after being beat up) or any act of God involving a Waytools employee, I will not call them a liar. Acceptable proof is either an un-doctored photo or video with accurate time stamp. In fact, I'll even put in an order for me and my girlfriend, and promise to wait it out until GR or forever, whichever comes first.
In short, I'm putting my money where my mouth is. How about you Waytools?
If only Phil Schiller had openly admitted the nature of the process all along, and had the courage to play it straight, then we wouldn’t see Apple as disingenuous for promising AirPower and then delaying and canceling it. Ok. Really?
Apple didn’t string us along, they simply didn’t know. They worked earnestly, but it didn’t go as expected.
How can any innovator know in advance of challenges they didn’t anticipate?
There are no clones on the market 4 years in - what does this evidence? This was indeed challenging new ground, and our team overcame it.
To say “No product shipped”, is an unambiguous, false claim. To repeat it 30 times - is purposefully aimed to diminish what has already been achieved, and validated.
The article that spawned this thread exists entirely because of what has already been achieved and delivered so far. It’s not all orders, but it’s real.
All the complex work to refine and ship hundreds of units from production tools, and to achieve high satisfaction for users - that’s not nothing.
This is something, and it’s unique. No other company has done it.
To frame all this as “could have been epic ... but no matter how innovative and perfected ... will never be true”. These are words whispered in the ear of the runner in the last lap of a great race ... to discourage, and goad them to give up. We won’t. With 36 months of validation, the record speaks for itself. Demonstrably, we don’t quit.
Our customers don’t gain from detractors. They want us to bring this new technology home for all of them. That’s exactly what we’re doing.
If you truly feel we knew the challenges before they presented, and intentionally made disingenuous estimates - then on moral grounds, the only rational choice is to cancel.
You’ve always controlled your money. Just push the button and take it back if you don’t believe in our good faith.
If you said "Yes" to do something and you failed to do so (for whatever reason), you did lie, whether you like it or not. But whether your spouse will forgive you is separate matter. And if you can't own up to the fact that you lied, that's yet another separate matter.
Oh Kahuna, you could have saved us a lot of words by just saying something like "How about if Mark's dumb dog ate all the pallets on Dec. 31st?" and it would have been just as ridiculous.
If they'd meant all those disclaimers in their "Yes" to a point-blank question, couldn't they have clued us in by decorating the word with an asterisk
I gave you an example of something that anyone can recognize (though details may vary, of course). In such situations no one would have said in answer to the question about picking them up at work at 5:00: "Yes, if there are no flat tires, accidents, or other unexpected things that happen".
I feel quite confident that most people do not throw in such qualifiers every time they agree to something like that. If you wish to claim they do include them, fine. People can decide which fits their own experience.
If you said "Yes" to do something and you failed to do so (for whatever reason), you did lie, whether you like it or not. But whether your spouse will forgive you is separate matter. And if you can't own up to the fact that you lied, that's yet another separate matter.
Except there is this:
"An intentionally false statement"
Second word is key.
Regardless, I somehow doubt anyone who has such an event happens says to their spouse: "I'm sorry I lied to you about picking you up".
Now, they may very well say, "I'm sorry I didn't pick you up and time", but that is quite different. And, of course, it would include the reason for the delay.
Science note - lithium ion batteries don’t age on the shelf per se, their life is defined by the number of charge / discharge cycles.
New batteries, stored properly, don’t expire. Alkaline disposables have expiry dates, but rechargeable Li Ion has very different chemistry.
I could use some elaboration on this. My oldest brother (pretty smart guy with a doctorate - though it was in bio-chemistry) once said that it didn't do much good to buy a laptop and get an extra battery - because by the time the original battery was used up, the extra would have degraded significantly.
Now, I have no idea what kind of battery was used in whatever laptops he may have been referring to. And it is possible he was just mistaken. But this had to have happened before 2012. Maybe long before, but that's as close as I can get. Were some laptop batteries NOT lithium ion back then or sometime before?
Update: Doing some online checking, I do see stuff about the batteries losing life even in storage. Of course, I have no idea if there are different kinds of lithium ion batteries.
Update 2: Also found a "lithium" battery that says it holds power for 20 years in storage. Don't know if that is the same as "lithium ion".
Life of a lithium-ion battery is typically defined as the number of full charge-discharge cycles to reach a failure threshold in terms of capacity loss or impedance rise. Manufacturers' datasheet typically uses the word "cycle life" to specify lifespan in terms of the number of cycles to reach 80% of the rated battery capacity.[168].Inactive storage of these batteries also reduces their capacity. [my emphasis] Calendar life is used to represent the whole life cycle of battery involving both the cycle and inactive storage operations.
In the midst of all the recent semantics as to what really constitutes a lie, WT appears here to be caught in a blatant untruth.
Calendar life is used to represent the whole life cycle of battery involving both the cycle and inactive storage operations.
I think this is a key issue, but as I've been looking for more info, I can't find enough to really determine when it can matter.
Suppose it is good for 1000 full recharges. Depending on the device, that could mean as little as 3-4 years, but maybe a fair amount more. Let's say you have something that recharging will cause it to be considered below par in 5 years.
Now, suppose the batteries are fine to store for 10 years (I saw one that said 20).
So if you got a 5 year old battery and used it normally for 5 years, the storage time may not matter much. I'm sure it isn't quite that simple, but just looking at it on the most fundamental terms. After all, it may be that those 5 years in storage means it can then only handle 900 full recharges.
Now, if you store it for 9 years, then I guess there is a good chance you aren't going to get full value out of it!
“lithium ion batteries don’t age on the shelf per se, their life is defined by the number of charge / discharge cycles.
New batteries, stored properly, don’t expire.”
More drill-down for you -
Any chemically-based device, if not stored properly, can degrade just by sitting on the shelf. That’s true of any kind of battery, or even just a bottle of certain liquid compounds, since they are chemically based.
In particular, if cells are allowed to get hot, they will degrade on the shelf.
But any competent manufacturer stores their lithium ion cells at proper temperature, and charge level, to stabilize their shelf storage life.
As a result, the practical life of the cells is dominated by the number of charge / discharge cycles used. Not time on the shelf.
A properly stored battery can last up to 20 years on the shelf. A 500 cycle life provides service for say, 3 years, like your phone.
Ergo, storing it properly for 3 years before entering service has no material effect on the 3 year useable life.
To say they’ve ‘expired’ is contrived to mislead customers.
Tesla power walls are guaranteed for 10 years, and cars for 8 years. Both warranties assume significant usage. Shelf storage is gentler, so they will last even longer.
An iPhone’s battery, stored for 2 hours on the dashboard of a car parked in hot sun, can be permanently ruined. Does this mean the shelf storage life is 2 hours?
Obviously not, our phone batteries last years, not 2 hours, and we know not to leave them in the sun.
So stripping off the qualifier of “stored properly ” removes the entire meaning of the statement.
If your goal is to accuse us of “blatant untruth”, you’d intentionally strip off the relevant qualifier, to render the statement meaningless.
If your goal is to know the truth, you’d just read and understand the above facts. What we said was precise and very true.
We’ll assume benign lack of knowledge was the reason for the mistaken accusation.
If anyone needs an example of how oppo-PR might be able to twist words to malign a target, the above is a useful case study.
The Tesla forums are filled with this kind of stuff, from short sellers, every day.
So stripping off the qualifier of “stored properly ” removes the entire meaning of the statement.
If your goal is to accuse us of “blatant untruth”, you’d intentionally strip off the relevant qualifier, to render the statement meaningless.
If your goal is to know the truth, you’d just read and understand the above facts. What we said was precise and very true.
Given I quoted the entirety of your post, I'm confused as to why you even suggest that anyone might have stripped off any qualifier, intentionally or otherwise. I'm grateful that you therefore acknowledge my goal was to pursue truth, and I thank you for the clarification, which does somewhat modify your original statement "lithium ion batteries don’t age on the shelf per se".
Comments
I do hope this is the month we finally get the update. And while I am quite sure there will be things we'd like to know that they won't tell (nor should they), I certainly hope there is a lot of info we want. It certainly won't include a shipping date. We already know that the update comes first, followed later by Treg testing (we don't know how much later), and we certainly don't know how long that will last because, until we test, we don't know if we'll find problems.
On the enforced refunds topic: I disagree with you. Feels like crossing a line that should not be crossed. I am not aware of any other company doing the same. People should not need to write in posts in the RANTS section of WTF "please don't cancel my order". Every time I read that phrase I inwardly cringe. Don't criticize Ford because they might come and reposes your car in the middle of the night. Oh but they deposit the money right away, so it must be ok, right? No, it is not.
Edit: typos
2. I disagree with you
At least in the extreme cases I mentioned. In other, lesser cases, I'd probably agree with you. And then there would be a bunch in between where I wouldn't be sure where to draw the line. But, otoh, I think it is pretty generous of them, when they do cancel in these extreme cases, that they let the person keep their place in line if they reorder. Regardless of whether you think they should or shouldn't cancel orders, since they are doing that, I would not have expected they would allow someone to keep their spot.
1 year replacement if they come out with a better version (true, they could wait a full year an then do an upgrade, but that isn't the point. It is about how a lot of people got ticked off at Apple one year when they came out with a new iPad and then within 6 months they came out with an improved one!
VERY low price for what the TextBlade does. And I say that even if the price does go up - even if they didn't include anything more than the present version. I'd pay $300 knowing what I know now - which includes the fact that I don't need separate keyboards for desktop, iPad, etc.
Very low replacement price if you ruin your device.
None of this will make people happy until it ships. But once it does, these are really huge things. And if people don't think it will ever ship, well, why would they keep their order?
The question was: "Will 2019 finally be when we see the Textblade after all these years?" To which Waytools replied: "Yes"
We seem to have become so used to Waytools lying that words so simple and definitive as "Yes" has lost its meaning. There are many other words that can convey doubt, ambiguity, uncertainty, expectations, etc. -- but "Yes" is not one of them. I mean, which part of "Yes" do you not understand?
How low can Waytool's credibility be when their "Yes" leaves so much doubt? The answer is apparently zero. They follow it up with "It is" only because apparently no one believed them. But that followup does nothing to buttress their zero credibility.
Their "Yes" is yet another lie in the making. It's not an estimate, or projection, an expectation, a guess -- a poor one or otherwise. The word is binary. They ship in 2019 or they don't. And if I were a betting man, given their history, my money's on them NOT delivering. To give them any wiggle room to this "Yes" would be to tantamount to redefining the English language, and throwing all words in it into doubt. Definitive words like "YES" and "NO" exist to combat the loose nature of language in general and its tendency to be festered with weasel words. If "Yes" is open to interpretations to mean anything from "probably", "maybe" all the way to "maybe not", "possibly unlikely perhaps", how is anyone to communicate at all?
Amen brother. Sing it.
Two pallets of aging Textblades with expired batteries. Millions of dollars collected from 10,000+ customers? 4+ years. No product shipped. No keys for kids. Who has the money? Mark Knighton has the money.
But you don't. If you only consider it is a computer-like binary thing, you must have lied! Except you didn't, because:
You took every reasonable step to fulfill your agreement.
But your car got a flat tire, or broke down for some other reason, or there was a major accident on the way and you had no alternate route you could take when you realized it. Or you were in the accident. Or on the way you saw a woman being raped and rushed to save her, getting beat up yourself and taken to the hospital.
If they are the units reserved for Treg, they aren't going to be the ones the Treg testers end up with anyway. They don't need to have batteries that are brand new now. They simply need to work well enough for testers to use them. Even my oldest unit runs plenty long enough, going days even with very heavy use. More than most would give it.
When they finalize everything, then it will be important to put new batteries in the new, GR, units. Which will also be sent to Treg testers.
No, we're talking about users who followed the forum rules and how they were dealt with. And they far outnumber the ones that clearly broke the rules. If a user break the rules, close their account and force-refund. Fine. I certainly would not do this, but I can understand. What I don't understand is all the steps in between: shadow-banning so they can't start a thread, silencing your account so they can only like, disabling the account for an arbitrary amount of time, after which you can log back in, demoting your user level, etc.
These tactics serve no other purpose than to just mess with you. It's as if they're saying: "Your money's still good, but you're not" or "Come back later when you can be nice. Your money'll safe with us" or "We kinda sorta didn't like what you said so we demoted you, cuz, you know, we can". Of course, they never warn you beforehand. You just scratch your head while trying to figure it all out. And if you are able to post questions, they'll never answer you. Most of the times, you're not even able to ask, so you end up asking on places like here. And again, no answers.
There is no rhyme or reason why they do this to so many perfectly good forum citizens. Waytools often uses "misrepresentation" as the reason, which could mean virtually anything under creation, though I seriously doubt they know what the word really means. It just sounds good, I guess. And it's clear they won't tolerate sarcasm or humor, unless it's somehow used to sing their praises, and you better sing hard. Otherwise, they may somehow someway take it the wrong way and put you through the gauntlet of demotions, silencing, etc. If you still protest, or just protest at all, they will publicly humiliate you with something like: "You seem stressed by your order. We don't want to give you stress..." -- as if you're the whacko -- before performing force-refund (public execution style): "So we're forced to cancel your order."
"But," they always say. "If you change your mind, you can re-order within a week and keep your place in line." Which is to say, "You're a whack job, we don't like you, but your money's still good."
So, it's no wonder the majority of posts on WTF are birds singing to the choir. I know some are in earnest, excited equally by the textblade as they being chosen for TREG, but the rest you simply have to wonder. I don't see much counterpoints nor anyone taking Waytools to task. It's springtime there for Germany and Waytools Gestapo, while it's winter for Poland for the rest.
This is exactly what I mean by redefining words to the point they become meaningless. Who'd a thunk that "Yes" came with so much disclaimers -- when it doesn't? If they'd meant all those disclaimers in their "Yes" to a point-blank question, couldn't they have clued us in by decorating the word with an asterisk or just spelling out 'caveat emptor' or some such Latin, of which they're so fond? Otherwise, they could have used another one of many words with room for failure, yet is mostly affirmative. Or they simply could have not responded at all.
But tell you what... I'll bite. If there's no delivery by Jan 1, 2020, but Waytools can provide proof that they were hampered by an accident, hospitalization (after being beat up) or any act of God involving a Waytools employee, I will not call them a liar. Acceptable proof is either an un-doctored photo or video with accurate time stamp. In fact, I'll even put in an order for me and my girlfriend, and promise to wait it out until GR or forever, whichever comes first.
In short, I'm putting my money where my mouth is. How about you Waytools?
Consider your comments in the context of Apple -
If only Phil Schiller had openly admitted the nature of the process all along, and had the courage to play it straight, then we wouldn’t see Apple as disingenuous for promising AirPower and then delaying and canceling it. Ok. Really?
Apple didn’t string us along, they simply didn’t know. They worked earnestly, but it didn’t go as expected.
How can any innovator know in advance of challenges they didn’t anticipate?
There are no clones on the market 4 years in - what does this evidence? This was indeed challenging new ground, and our team overcame it.
To say “No product shipped”, is an unambiguous, false claim. To repeat it 30 times - is purposefully aimed to diminish what has already been achieved, and validated.
The article that spawned this thread exists entirely because of what has already been achieved and delivered so far. It’s not all orders, but it’s real.
All the complex work to refine and ship hundreds of units from production tools, and to achieve high satisfaction for users - that’s not nothing.
This is something, and it’s unique. No other company has done it.
To frame all this as “could have been epic ... but no matter how innovative and perfected ... will never be true”. These are words whispered in the ear of the runner in the last lap of a great race ... to discourage, and goad them to give up. We won’t. With 36 months of validation, the record speaks for itself. Demonstrably, we don’t quit.
Our customers don’t gain from detractors. They want us to bring this new technology home for all of them. That’s exactly what we’re doing.
If you truly feel we knew the challenges before they presented, and intentionally made disingenuous estimates - then on moral grounds, the only rational choice is to cancel.
You’ve always controlled your money. Just push the button and take it back if you don’t believe in our good faith.
If you said "Yes" to do something and you failed to do so (for whatever reason), you did lie, whether you like it or not.
But whether your spouse will forgive you is separate matter. And if you can't own up to the fact that you lied, that's yet another separate matter.
New batteries, stored properly, don’t expire. Alkaline disposables have expiry dates, but rechargeable Li Ion has very different chemistry.
Tesla Li Ion packs that are 7 years and 200K miles in, still work fine.
An interesting fud narrative though. Plausible-sounding vector to provoke doubt, but specious nonetheless.
Poster is probably smart enough to know this, but posted it anyway.
"An intentionally false statement"
Regardless, I somehow doubt anyone who has such an event happens says to their spouse: "I'm sorry I lied to you about picking you up".
Update 2: Also found a "lithium" battery that says it holds power for 20 years in storage. Don't know if that is the same as "lithium ion".
From https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery :
In the midst of all the recent semantics as to what really constitutes a lie, WT appears here to be caught in a blatant untruth.Suppose it is good for 1000 full recharges. Depending on the device, that could mean as little as 3-4 years, but maybe a fair amount more. Let's say you have something that recharging will cause it to be considered below par in 5 years.
What we said -
“lithium ion batteries don’t age on the shelf per se, their life is defined by the number of charge / discharge cycles.
New batteries, stored properly, don’t expire.”
More drill-down for you -
Any chemically-based device, if not stored properly, can degrade just by sitting on the shelf. That’s true of any kind of battery, or even just a bottle of certain liquid compounds, since they are chemically based.
In particular, if cells are allowed to get hot, they will degrade on the shelf.
But any competent manufacturer stores their lithium ion cells at proper temperature, and charge level, to stabilize their shelf storage life.
As a result, the practical life of the cells is dominated by the number of charge / discharge cycles used. Not time on the shelf.
A properly stored battery can last up to 20 years on the shelf. A 500 cycle life provides service for say, 3 years, like your phone.
Ergo, storing it properly for 3 years before entering service has no material effect on the 3 year useable life.
To say they’ve ‘expired’ is contrived to mislead customers.
Tesla power walls are guaranteed for 10 years, and cars for 8 years. Both warranties assume significant usage. Shelf storage is gentler, so they will last even longer.
An iPhone’s battery, stored for 2 hours on the dashboard of a car parked in hot sun, can be permanently ruined. Does this mean the shelf storage life is 2 hours?
Obviously not, our phone batteries last years, not 2 hours, and we know not to leave them in the sun.
So stripping off the qualifier of “stored properly ” removes the entire meaning of the statement.
If your goal is to accuse us of “blatant untruth”, you’d intentionally strip off the relevant qualifier, to render the statement meaningless.
If your goal is to know the truth, you’d just read and understand the above facts. What we said was precise and very true.
We’ll assume benign lack of knowledge was the reason for the mistaken accusation.
If anyone needs an example of how oppo-PR might be able to twist words to malign a target, the above is a useful case study.
The Tesla forums are filled with this kind of stuff, from short sellers, every day.