Editorial: Why is privacy-minded Apple putting its new TV app on smart TVs notorious for s...

13

Comments

  • Reply 41 of 62
    Dan_DilgerDan_Dilger Posts: 1,583member

    You literally reposted the section of your article from yesterday where you referred to Samsung smart tv OS as inscrutable.  You never explained how clicking one button, scrolling to an app, and clicking another button is "inscrutable".  You then went on and said that it was the "nexus" of the OS and the app was the issue, when the apps behavior is the same in tvOS.  I didn't feel the need to rehash the conversation over again, as you are once again deflecting.  Here is an article from Toms Guide's if anyone wants a more impartial guide to the various smart tv OS's.

    https://www.tomsguide.com/us/smartest-smart-tv,review-5986.html

    You posted a personal attack implying that the article is maliciously spinning facts falsely to misinform people simply because you took personal offenses at the characterization of Tizen TV UI as “inscrutable.”

    That’s ridiculous. Absolutely nutty. 

    Go go to any general commentary site and virtually everyone describes Tizen as an unworkable pile of crap with a terrible design. A report on Ars Technica said “Samsung’s Tizen is riddled with security flaws, amateurishly written" and a developer called it the "worst code [he's] ever seen.""

    https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2017/04/samsungs-tizen-is-riddled-with-security-flaws-amateurishly-written/

    If an editorial calls a UI inscrutable, you can form and state your own personal opinion freely, but when you demand that nobody ever cross your ideas on the subject, you are way out of line. And when you disparage the author as a liar trying to deceive people over your love for a universally panned turd sandwich, it’s just insane.  

    You’re getting a free opportunity to throw your opinions out on commentary you paid nothing to read. So don’t be such a hateful embittered critic trying to malign and personally attack every article you read here. It’s really too much dude.  

    bakedbananaswatto_cobra
  • Reply 42 of 62
    FolioFolio Posts: 698member
    Despite the turmoil, much useful info resulted. My concern (as a heavy Apple user and stockholder) is that average users who know nothing about Javascript or the profusion of defaults will have more screen space commandeered by ads. This risks alienating people. Anyone who buys stuff online and lives in a prosperous neighborhood in US should be able to replicate my browsing experience (outlined above). I'm not sure execs at Apple realize what a potential horror this is if it remains unchecked.
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 43 of 62

    You literally reposted the section of your article from yesterday where you referred to Samsung smart tv OS as inscrutable.  You never explained how clicking one button, scrolling to an app, and clicking another button is "inscrutable".  You then went on and said that it was the "nexus" of the OS and the app was the issue, when the apps behavior is the same in tvOS.  I didn't feel the need to rehash the conversation over again, as you are once again deflecting.  Here is an article from Toms Guide's if anyone wants a more impartial guide to the various smart tv OS's.

    https://www.tomsguide.com/us/smartest-smart-tv,review-5986.html

    You posted a personal attack implying that the article is maliciously spinning facts falsely to misinform people simply because you took personal offenses at the characterization of Tizen TV UI as “inscrutable.”

    That’s ridiculous. Absolutely nutty. 

    Go go to any general commentary site and virtually everyone describes Tizen as an unworkable pile of crap with a terrible design. A report on Ars Technica said “Samsung’s Tizen is riddled with security flaws, amateurishly written" and a developer called it the "worst code [he's] ever seen.""

    https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2017/04/samsungs-tizen-is-riddled-with-security-flaws-amateurishly-written/

    If an editorial calls a UI inscrutable, you can form and state your own personal opinion freely, but when you demand that nobody ever cross your ideas on the subject, you are way out of line. And when you disparage the author as a liar trying to deceive people over your love for a universally panned turd sandwich, it’s just insane.  

    You’re getting a free opportunity to throw your opinions out on commentary you paid nothing to read. So don’t be such a hateful embittered critic trying to malign and personally attack every article you read here. It’s really too much dude.  

    Playing victim card while you were the aggressor for the most part in this thread??? It is not even funny DED. Better give it a rest.
    1STnTENDERBITSavon b7Abalos65
  • Reply 44 of 62
    rogifan_newrogifan_new Posts: 4,297member
    Because when Apple’s MO and greatest source of revenue/profits is selling pricy hardware then they can push the privacy and security angle. Now that they’re moving in to subscription services they’ll do whatever is necessary to grow that business model. Also for all of Apple’s bravado around privacy they still take billions from Google for it to be the default search engine on iOS. And then most downloaded free apps are usually from Google or Facebook. Man DED is obsessed with Google. Is it possible for him to write an editorial that isn’t just a long way of saying Apple good, Google bad?
    "Because when Apple’s MO and greatest source of revenue/profits is selling pricy hardware then they can push the privacy and security angle."

    They didn't use the privacy / security angle because of pricy hardware but because they're getting roasted in the next important battleground that is cloud / AI / ML / ambient computing.  Hopefully the new AI SVP and the team that he's building will help alleviate that but right now Apple is significantly behind.
    That too. But when your money mostly comes from hardware sales and not ML/AI services products it’s easier to push the privacy angle. 
  • Reply 45 of 62
    sarthossarthos Posts: 36member
    Latko said:
    The minimal distinction between Apple and the “evel” data collectors is that Apple collects and sells aggregate, anonymized data.
    That is, you as an individual still exist, but only under a cumbersome id (instead of your name) that others may very well relate to your name via usage patterns - even while Apple won’t.
    So that distinction is MINIMAL to ZERO, further in the value chain.
    So - contrary to what the article suggests - Apple IS collecting data on users collectively and selling TONS of aggeregate data to enable spying purposes.
    Where's your proof of any of this? Yes Apple collects some anonymous data to improve their products. The rest of your post is a fairy tale.
    Dan_DilgerStrangeDaysbakedbananas
  • Reply 46 of 62
    canukstormcanukstorm Posts: 2,699member
    Because when Apple’s MO and greatest source of revenue/profits is selling pricy hardware then they can push the privacy and security angle. Now that they’re moving in to subscription services they’ll do whatever is necessary to grow that business model. Also for all of Apple’s bravado around privacy they still take billions from Google for it to be the default search engine on iOS. And then most downloaded free apps are usually from Google or Facebook. Man DED is obsessed with Google. Is it possible for him to write an editorial that isn’t just a long way of saying Apple good, Google bad?
    "Because when Apple’s MO and greatest source of revenue/profits is selling pricy hardware then they can push the privacy and security angle."

    They didn't use the privacy / security angle because of pricy hardware but because they're getting roasted in the next important battleground that is cloud / AI / ML / ambient computing.  Hopefully the new AI SVP and the team that he's building will help alleviate that but right now Apple is significantly behind.
    That too. But when your money mostly comes from hardware sales and not ML/AI services products it’s easier to push the privacy angle. 
    Even though Apple doesn't directly make money off of AI / ML based services, it will need to significantly improve in this area if it wants to add value to its hardware and justify the premium prices.  The privacy / security angle is not enough.
    edited May 2019
  • Reply 47 of 62
    baka-dubbsbaka-dubbs Posts: 175member

    You literally reposted the section of your article from yesterday where you referred to Samsung smart tv OS as inscrutable.  You never explained how clicking one button, scrolling to an app, and clicking another button is "inscrutable".  You then went on and said that it was the "nexus" of the OS and the app was the issue, when the apps behavior is the same in tvOS.  I didn't feel the need to rehash the conversation over again, as you are once again deflecting.  Here is an article from Toms Guide's if anyone wants a more impartial guide to the various smart tv OS's.

    https://www.tomsguide.com/us/smartest-smart-tv,review-5986.html

    You posted a personal attack implying that the article is maliciously spinning facts falsely to misinform people simply because you took personal offenses at the characterization of Tizen TV UI as “inscrutable.”

    That’s ridiculous. Absolutely nutty. 

    Go go to any general commentary site and virtually everyone describes Tizen as an unworkable pile of crap with a terrible design. A report on Ars Technica said “Samsung’s Tizen is riddled with security flaws, amateurishly written" and a developer called it the "worst code [he's] ever seen.""

    https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2017/04/samsungs-tizen-is-riddled-with-security-flaws-amateurishly-written/

    If an editorial calls a UI inscrutable, you can form and state your own personal opinion freely, but when you demand that nobody ever cross your ideas on the subject, you are way out of line. And when you disparage the author as a liar trying to deceive people over your love for a universally panned turd sandwich, it’s just insane.  

    You’re getting a free opportunity to throw your opinions out on commentary you paid nothing to read. So don’t be such a hateful embittered critic trying to malign and personally attack every article you read here. It’s really too much dude.  


    If you can't see what your doing is deflecting, then I don't know what to say.  What does an article over 2 years ago about security or how the coding was written have to do with making a UI easily understandable.  Inscrutable means impossible to understand or interpret.  So many people are using the samsung tv's without issues, I don't think you can factually refer to it as inscrutable.  You haven't explained to me how a single button press, selecting an app, and pressing a button is a difficult concept.  You complained about the Netflix app as one of your arguments when that app wasn't written by Samsung either.   Your moving the goal posts.  I even said in an earlier post I don't want anything to do with Samsung's ecosystem due to mandatory advertising.  I bought a Vizio and promptly turned off the user monitoring and hooked up an Apple TV.  But I don't need to validate my buying choices by making ridiculous statements about other products that are easily disputed.

    Here are a few more examples of people rating the various TV OS's, including ease of use.

    https://www.techradar.com/news/television/6-best-smart-tv-platforms-in-the-world-today-1120795

    https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/best/by-features/smart-internet-streaming

    I don't take personal offense at all, I said you were engaging in hyperbole.  You are not a victim here.  You are posting an opinion article on a website I frequently read.  I have been registered since 2011 and I have a whopping 104 comments.  I just don't understand why you feel the need to make these outlandish statements, then double down on it. 

    muthuk_vanalingam1STnTENDERBITSavon b7gatorguy
  • Reply 48 of 62
    22july201322july2013 Posts: 3,570member
    I think a related question is how does Apple compensate its News story providers if it, Apple itself, "Doesn't know what you read." And I don't know the answer. I think this is the kind of question AppleInsider needs to investigate. The answer may have bearing on this thread.
  • Reply 49 of 62
    chasmchasm Posts: 3,291member
    Latko said:

    So - contrary to what the article suggests - Apple IS collecting data on users collectively and selling TONS of aggeregate data to enable spying purposes.
    If you are certain that Apple is not only collecting use data but selling on then please go ahead and provide us with proof of this action.
    Spoiler alert: he can't, because he lives under a bridge.
    StrangeDaysbakedbananas
  • Reply 50 of 62
    bb-15bb-15 Posts: 283member
    - It is trivial to avoid Apple data collection for ads in the News app. 
    I don’t use it. 
    - With the App Store, I accept that there will be targeted ads for my searches. But that is a minimal intrusion. 
    I don’t use Google search (instead use DuckDuckGo).
    It is easy to limit ad tracking in iOS for its main services.

    * Compare that to Android/Google services where the economics are based on tracking the users through unique identifiers & targeting ads. 

    * Typical Android phones are directing users to Google services. Google’s mines data from “free” services like Gmail, Chrome, Google Maps & Google Drive for ads. As a result Google makes most of its money from ads based on massive data mining. https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/020515/business-google.asp ;

    https://bgr.com/2016/02/11/why-facebook-and-google-mine-your-data-and-why-theres-nothing-you-can-do-to-stop-it/ ;

    * Apple by contrast makes most of its money from hardware sales especially from the iPhone. 

    https://www.fool.com/investing/2017/04/08/how-apple-inc-makes-most-of-its-money.aspx

    (Apple has minor ad revenue with their News app & App Store searches which is small compared with massive data mining which produces most of Google’s revenue.)

    bakedbananas
  • Reply 51 of 62
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,211member
    bb-15 said:
    - It is trivial to avoid Apple data collection for ads in the News app. 
    I don’t use it. 
    - With the App Store, I accept that there will be targeted ads for my searches. But that is a minimal intrusion. 
    I don’t use Google search (instead use DuckDuckGo).
    It is easy to limit ad tracking in iOS for its main services.

    * Compare that to Android/Google services where the economics are based on tracking the users through unique identifiers & targeting ads. 

    * Typical Android phones are directing users to Google services. Google’s mines data from “free” services like Gmail, Chrome, Google Maps & Google Drive

    You should update both your pretty old link and your understanding of GMail. Google doesn't data mine it for ads. They don't "data-mine" Google Drive for ads either AFAIK as it's encrypted from the time it leaves your computer/smartphone/whatever, but I'll research that to be sure. Of course none of the paid GSuite services which includes Gmail, Drive, Docs etc are used for ad monetization anyway. 

    It's actually pretty simple to turn off the tracking that does occur. Simply pause your Google account, ie sign out. You can always sign back in if you need to for some specific Google service. 
    edited May 2019 muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 52 of 62
    Dan_DilgerDan_Dilger Posts: 1,583member
    gatorguy said:
    bb-15 said:
    Google doesn't data mine it for ads. They don't "data-mine" Google Drive for ads either AFAIK as it's encrypted from the time it leaves your computer/smartphone/whatever, but I'll research that to be sure. Of course none of the paid GSuite services which includes Gmail, Drive, Docs etc are used for ad monetization anyway. 

    It's actually pretty simple to turn off the tracking that does occur. Simply pause your Google account, ie sign out. You can always sign back in if you need to for some specific Google service. 
    Google just admitted that it scans your Gmail to collect a list of everything you’ve ever bought that’s mentioned in your emails. 

    Claiming its its “not mining” is pretty rich. 

    Google exists to organize data. For people, that means mining every drop of data it can about you and feeding back ads optimized to manipulate you using sophisticated psychology. And when it makes an error and misplaces all that data and you lose you job or are otherwise affected, it shrugs.

    The point of the article is that Apple is very clearly the only company that doesn’t do that in television. And people are noticing. So you can pay for an Apple TV (which isn’t expensive) and watch what you want, or you can pay for  a “nearly free” Chrome/Fire/Roku/Tizen/Android TV experience and be tracked and monitored and shoveled ads by a system that’s designed around advertisers’ needs rather than your preferences.

    That’s all there is. You keep saying these two things are the same but they are not, and that’s why Apple is making money selling premium hardware while Google and all are making money selling you to advertisers. 
    StrangeDayslostkiwibakedbananas
  • Reply 53 of 62
    knowitallknowitall Posts: 1,648member
    Advice buying a TV set: buy the lowest price non (less) smart version of the smart TV line of a specific brand. Make sure you buy the one with the same panel of the expensive versions (below a certain point they switch to low quality el cheapo panels)    so you have the same quality as the most high end TV but at a fraction of the cost (say €260 instead of €1000) and without the smart spyware.
    If you already have a way too expensive ‘high end’ TV, you can cut off most of the spying by disconnecting it from the internet (not so long ago Windows could only be installed without being hacked into, when not connected to the internet ...).

    In my experience separate Smart TV boxes have always a subpar experience, to access the device a special remote control key combination is used to switch to the specific external device. Say as easy as control-alt-delete on Windows and way more difficult than access to normal television channels.
    Also, making use of dual user interfaces and ditto paradigms is a pain.
    Hybrids don't work, they only multiply the difficulties; look at hybrid cars for example.        
  • Reply 54 of 62
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,211member
    gatorguy said:
    bb-15 said:
    Google doesn't data mine it for ads. They don't "data-mine" Google Drive for ads either AFAIK as it's encrypted from the time it leaves your computer/smartphone/whatever, but I'll research that to be sure. Of course none of the paid GSuite services which includes Gmail, Drive, Docs etc are used for ad monetization anyway. 

    It's actually pretty simple to turn off the tracking that does occur. Simply pause your Google account, ie sign out. You can always sign back in if you need to for some specific Google service. 
    Google just admitted that it scans your Gmail to collect a list of everything you’ve ever bought that’s mentioned in your emails. 

    Claiming its its “not mining” is pretty rich.
    That's cute, you using "organizing" in one breath and "mining" in the next then pretending they are one and the same simply to be argumentative. To quote you: "You keep saying these two things are the same but they are not"

    Be sure to let us know when you discover Google is monetizing your email afterall, using what your email says you bought to send you ads for something else. That would be an example of you being helpful rather than acting as a tributary of the FUD River. 

    As for the point of your original article I do get that and there are truths in there. A lot of these smart TV makers are reliant on revenue from the content providers and data aggregators. You did good for the most part, but don't go so far as to claim Apple has entirely clean hands when it comes to getting revenue from collecting and collating what you watch, when you watch, and where. And yes both Apple and Google make "you" an Advertising ID Number to anonymize and protect your private information. 

    The two (or is it three?)  Apple TV settings connected to privacy and some (all?) ON by default but should have been off to avoid data collection are there for a reason. What is it and why are they toggled just the opposite knowing that most people never change defaults? Perhaps if you took the time to explain why that would be more helpful.

    I've asked a couple of times so far, and you'd be the perfect person to explain it as you're so knowledgeable about all things Apple. I know you're a very busy man  but perhaps you could take a few minutes to do so now as I'm sure I'm not the only member here who would like to know. 
    edited May 2019 muthuk_vanalingamAbalos65
  • Reply 55 of 62
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 12,871member
    kruegdude said:
    Wait? Corrections is Daniel? 
    Yes, and if he follows his typical MO, he will try to refute a few critiques through deflection, give up, then repost the same spin in his next "Editorial"(he literally copy and pasted sections from his article yesterday).  He rarely addresses the actual points being brought up without trying to move the goalposts.  Check out the comments sections of his "Editorial" from yesterday to see the same pattern.
    You have it mistaken, my guy. The pattern is butthurt haters, trolls, and pundits getting their panties in a bunch and whining about it when DED, one of the few rational writers about Apple (including PED, and Horace Dediu) use reason to show why the fear-mongering have the Apple narrative completely wrong, per usual. 

    Gruber just linked to Horace writing about the same:

    https://daringfireball.net/linked/2019/05/17/the-pivot
    http://www.asymco.com/2019/05/16/the-pivot/

    The butthurt haters, trolls, and pundits rarely use reason, if ever. And they are masters of moving the goalposts.

    Google is an advertising company. They sell users as the product to their advertiser customers. Whole Google Guy wants to pretend it's the same as Apple, and completely anonymous, it isn't. "Shadow profiles" is a thing...Read all about it:

    https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=google+shadow+profiles

    https://reclaimthenet.org/google-is-building-shadow-profiles-of-its-users-tech-company-oracle-claims/


    And just discovered Google is tracking your purchases, stuff not purchased thru google but mined and scraped from your emails on their service:

    https://daringfireball.net/linked/2019/05/17/gmail-tracks-purchas-history

    https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/17/google-gmail-tracks-purchase-history-how-to-delete-it.html

    edited May 2019 lostkiwibakedbananas
  • Reply 56 of 62
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 12,871member
    Because when Apple’s MO and greatest source of revenue/profits is selling pricy hardware then they can push the privacy and security angle. Now that they’re moving in to subscription services they’ll do whatever is necessary to grow that business model. Also for all of Apple’s bravado around privacy they still take billions from Google for it to be the default search engine on iOS. And then most downloaded free apps are usually from Google or Facebook. Man DED is obsessed with Google. Is it possible for him to write an editorial that isn’t just a long way of saying Apple good, Google bad?
    "Because when Apple’s MO and greatest source of revenue/profits is selling pricy hardware then they can push the privacy and security angle."

    They didn't use the privacy / security angle because of pricy hardware but because they're getting roasted in the next important battleground that is cloud / AI / ML / ambient computing.  Hopefully the new AI SVP and the team that he's building will help alleviate that but right now Apple is significantly behind.
    That too. But when your money mostly comes from hardware sales and not ML/AI services products it’s easier to push the privacy angle. 
    Even though Apple doesn't directly make money off of AI / ML based services, it will need to significantly improve in this area if it wants to add value to its hardware and justify the premium prices.  The privacy / security angle is not enough.
    Nah. The premium prices are for the premium hardware. Keep your cheap plastic Pixel junk. The privacy fact is also something I'll pay for. Keep your google shadow profiles.
    bakedbananas
  • Reply 57 of 62
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 12,871member

    gatorguy said:
    bb-15 said:
    - It is trivial to avoid Apple data collection for ads in the News app. 
    I don’t use it. 
    - With the App Store, I accept that there will be targeted ads for my searches. But that is a minimal intrusion. 
    I don’t use Google search (instead use DuckDuckGo).
    It is easy to limit ad tracking in iOS for its main services.

    * Compare that to Android/Google services where the economics are based on tracking the users through unique identifiers & targeting ads. 

    * Typical Android phones are directing users to Google services. Google’s mines data from “free” services like Gmail, Chrome, Google Maps & Google Drive

    You should update both your pretty old link and your understanding of GMail. Google doesn't data mine it for ads. They don't "data-mine" Google Drive for ads either AFAIK as it's encrypted from the time it leaves your computer/smartphone/whatever, but I'll research that to be sure. Of course none of the paid GSuite services which includes Gmail, Drive, Docs etc are used for ad monetization anyway. 

    It's actually pretty simple to turn off the tracking that does occur. Simply pause your Google account, ie sign out. You can always sign back in if you need to for some specific Google service. 
    Dear Google employee/parent,

    You should update your understanding go Gmail. Google does data mine it, for purposes we cannot know:

    https://daringfireball.net/linked/2019/05/17/gmail-tracks-purchas-history
    edited May 2019 bakedbananas
  • Reply 58 of 62
    AppleExposedAppleExposed Posts: 1,805unconfirmed, member
    Because when Apple’s MO and greatest source of revenue/profits is selling pricy hardware

    And here you are pushing the BS narrative parroted by iKnockoff idiots.

    Can you just say Selling data good/Apple bad?
    edited May 2019 bakedbananas
  • Reply 59 of 62
    AppleExposedAppleExposed Posts: 1,805unconfirmed, member
    kruegdude said:
    Wait? Corrections is Daniel? 
    Yes, and if he follows his typical MO, he will try to refute a few critiques through deflection, give up, then repost the same spin in his next "Editorial"(he literally copy and pasted sections from his article yesterday).  He rarely addresses the actual points being brought up without trying to move the goalposts.  Check out the comments sections of his "Editorial" from yesterday to see the same pattern.
    That would explain why he's more intelligent than us. Seriously that corrections dude is smart and quite the writer.
    lostkiwibakedbananas
  • Reply 60 of 62
    AppleExposedAppleExposed Posts: 1,805unconfirmed, member

    Latko said:
    Latko said:
    The minimal distinction between Apple and the “evel” data collectors is that Apple collects and sells aggregate, anonymized data.
    That is, you as an individual still exist, but only under a cumbersome id (instead of your name) that others may very well relate to your name via usage patterns - even while Apple won’t.
    So that distinction is MINIMAL to ZERO, further in the value chain.
    So - contrary to what the article suggests - Apple IS collecting data on users collectively and selling TONS of aggeregate data to enable spying purposes.
    Sorry, No

    Apple collects and sells aggregate, anonymized data = false
    Digitaltrends.com on Apple:
    ” the company does use your data to sell targeted ads based on your activity in the News and App Store apps. You can actually see what information Apple is using here by going to Settings, Privacy, then Advertising. ... Apple will send you your data in chunks, up to 25GB.
    may 23 2018”
    Not to defend DED, but


    Ridiculous that one of the only fact-based tech writers gets such hatred for telling the truth. Pathetic.
    bakedbananas
Sign In or Register to comment.