Review: Microsoft's Surface Pro is the best Windows tablet to get, if you need one

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Comments

  • Reply 21 of 46
    apple ][apple ][ Posts: 9,233member
    rogifan_new said: From what I see the people complaining the most about iPads are people that are probably better off using a Mac or Windows PC.
    I agree. I think that most people complaining about iPads just don't understand iPads and never have and never will. They should just go buy a laptop instead and stop whining and moaning about ridiculous things that will never happen like mouse support.

    I also agree that the best solution if somebody is looking for the best from both worlds is to use both a laptop and an iPad. 

    They're two different things.

    I've said this before, but 2 in 1 units is like eating food with a spork. 
    edited June 2019 dewmeAppleExposed
  • Reply 22 of 46
    pscooter63pscooter63 Posts: 1,080member
    Wait.  In your effort to escape Windows you {checks notes} come to an article about a Windows tablet... just to {checks notes again} complain about a single article on a site filled with articles about Apple?  That makes sooo much sense considering you could have, I don't know, read one of the other articles on the site.  
    My comment was about editorial decisions, not the article per se.  I guess that subtlety flew right past you.

    Silence implies assent... the same impetus that prompted your response.  Guess you’re not that different from me after all?

    By the way, I’m one of the Likes on Mike’s reply.  The very first, in fact.
    edited June 2019 AppleExposed
  • Reply 23 of 46
    visualzonevisualzone Posts: 298member
    So... MicrosoftOutsider now?

    With all due respect to Mike (whose content is generally great), there are dozens of places that already provide review content like this.

    I am forced to use a Windows machine at work.  AI used to be my escape from all that.
    Exactly! I might have to use it at work but I don't need no stinking Microsoft Windows at home.
    AppleExposed
  • Reply 24 of 46
    visualzonevisualzone Posts: 298member
    So... MicrosoftOutsider now?

    With all due respect to Mike (whose content is generally great), there are dozens of places that already provide review content like this.

    I am forced to use a Windows machine at work.  AI used to be my escape from all that.
    Wait.  In your effort to escape Windows you {checks notes} come to an article about a Windows tablet... just to {checks notes again} complain about a single article on a site filled with articles about Apple?  That makes sooo much sense considering you could have, I don't know, read one of the other articles on the site.  

    It's like you're complaining about getting sick from riding roller coasters while in line to ride a roller coaster.  Don't ride the roller coaster.  Don't read the article and your respite from Windows remains intact.
    Actually we don't read these articles. We just like to read the replies. Btw, where else does one complain about a Windows article except at a Windows article? Sheesh!!
  • Reply 25 of 46
    thttht Posts: 5,451member
    mac_128 said:
    Unfortunately, using the software keyboard takes up a lot of the display, which makes that a less than optimal choice in many use cases.
    Regarding this, yes, it is less than optimal, but I think this can be optimized. I’ve been using an iPad 10.5 for 1.5 years now, flat on a table while using the software keyboard, or couch/bed surfing, and it isn’t as bad as I thought it would be. The display is closer to you, so, there is more screen space than you think there would be. The text selection UI bugs and autocorrect bugs are more of an issue to me than the halving the display size for apps.

    Still, there are things they can do:
    1. They can use 5:4 aspect ratio instead of 4:3, for the Pro models at least. Screen sizes can also go to 11.5 and 13.5 inches diagonal.
    2. Adding a cmd and opt/alt meta keys and localizing the word suggestion UI to an optional floating panel would eliminate the half height row on top.
    3. Then, I’ve toyed with the idea of a 3 row keyboard instead of the 4 row plus half height dynamic row thing.
    4. The keyboard options key should have a trackpad option or there should be a 3 finger slide left or right to expose more keyboard, like a num pad or trackpad.

    The point is they aren’t done with the software keyboard. It’s software and they should be racing to make as productive or better than a hardware keyboard. 

    Even the big big thing with the software keyboard for feeler typists: they rest and graze their fingers on mechanical keys and that can be dealt with. There are ways to differentiate between a rest, a press, and a tap along with audio cues so that users know where the keys are without looking down or accidentally pressing.
  • Reply 26 of 46
    dewmedewme Posts: 5,373member
    The Windows PC versus Mac "war" is not even at the thumb-wrestling level of conflict for me. Does anyone truly spend more than 10 milliseconds thinking about this anymore? I have a mix of Mac, Linux, and Windows PCs and each of them has some things I love about the operating system and some things I hate about the operating system. But what really matters to me is my personal content, personal property, and things that I personally care about and have a vested interest in preserving and accessing from the devices that are within easy reach at all times. I have a few applications that require a Windows PC hardware and software (or a virtual version of same) so I cannot put Windows away in the junk drawer quite yet. I have no issues with Windows 10, but it doesn't support everything I need. I also like tinkering with tiny and ridiculously inexpensive Linux based single board computers like Raspberry Pi. At present, only Apple has the most complete, easiest to use, easiest to manage, and most universal coverage for getting to My Stuff and presents the least friction and lowest level of claptrap in doing so.

    The nearly seamless availability of accessing and managing My Stuff across my iPhone, iPad, Apple Watch, Apple TV, and of course Mac makes Apple's hardware, software, services, and ecosystem my first choice. It's still not my only choice, but so what? Despite my preference for Everything Apple, I'm not about to dump Windows 10 anytime soon because it still fills some niches that needs filling. Until those niches go away I'll have a Windows PC in my life. However, at the same time I'm very unlikely to buy a Microsoft Surface tablet PC because it's too expensive for my niche requirements compared to what I can get in other Windows PC form factors from other vendors for far less money. I don't mind laying out the cash for Apple products that have similar form factors (and limited serviceability) to the Surface tablet because they aren't filling niche requirements but are expanding my access to my core requirements. Put another way, I don't mind spending more money for essential things that matter, but I'm not going to spend a lot of money for things that are less essential for me, and Microsoft's Surface products always involve spending a lot of money. I need Windows 10 but I don't need a Microsoft Surface product.
    gatorguy
  • Reply 27 of 46
    mac_128mac_128 Posts: 3,454member
    tht said:
    mac_128 said:
    If you want a tablet that can be used as a laptop, maybe that’s an iPad. I don’t recommend [using an iPad like a laptop] though. I recommend using an iPad flat on a table using the software keyboard. Or on a level surface or resting place. It really needs to be this way to effectively use the multi-touch gestures. Adding a keyboard case accessory negates all the advantages of a thin and light tablet. A lot of the cases make thicker than a laptop, heavier than a laptop, and that’s a lot of tradeoff. 

    Apple does need to improve its software keyboard. There really should be arrow and meta keys, and a software trackpad controlling a pointer (not just a text insertion point). External keyboard and pointer is all but inevitable though, where people will use an iPad+monitor like they would a desktop PC.
    An iPad flat on a table is an ergonomic nightmare for any extended use. You’ll need a good chiropractor if that’s how you primarily use it. Unfortunately, using the software keyboard takes up a lot of the display, which makes that a less than optimal choice in many use cases. It’s really too bad in offering iPad Pro USB-C mirroring for use with an external monitor, they didn’t provide for a software keyboard to work in an extended mode. You’d still have to look down to see what you’re doing in navigating around the screen with Touch only input, but that would be less frequent than keeping ones head down to read the horizontally positioned display. Of course a mouse moving a virtual finger would have solved many of those issues.
    I’m basically in direct opposition to what you are saying regarding using an iPad flat on a table. It really is the best way to use it while at a desk or on your lap. If the an iPad is propped vertical like a laptop, you lose the biggest advantages it has: multi-touch input and Pencil input. It is so much easier to do while flat. Multi-Touch as in two hands, not two fingers. Like you can select a block of text longer than a page by holding the text selection handle and using your other hand to scroll up or down to select more text. The more famous ones are selecting multiple items: one hand holds the selected items, the other hand selects, and then navigates to the target location for dropping. The Pencil input while flat versus vertical goes without saying.

    Doing this type of stuff while an iPad is vertical isn’t tenable and why so many people want mouse or pointer support. Apple should really be trying to improve it’s advantages, not try to make it a kind of a laptop.

    For external monitors, I think the default method for use is to have the iPad flat on the table, running a software keyboard and trackpad that controls the apps on the external monitor. I do think external keyboard and pointer device support should be provided, it’s just they should be working to the iPad’s strengths which is multi-touch and stylus input.
    I don’t believe we are in opposition here. I agree the best way to use an iPad is flat on a table. And Apple does too. That’s why they said they wouldn’t make a touch screen laptop, because ergonomically it was stressful on the arm. The irony of course, is that’s exactly what they are marketing for the iPad Pro with a keyboard, which has no other way to interact with it.

    However, where we disagree is that in order to use an iPad flat on a table the user has to bend their neck at an awkward angle to see the display, the entire time they use the device. All medical advice on the subject says that is a terrible idea. That’s why I even mentioned screen mirroring — if the iPad can effectively mirror to a screen, then the iPad can be used flat with the user only occasionally looking down for finger placement, just like on a regular laptop or desktop PC. A mouse would eliminate the need to look down to navigate and keep the head at a proper angle for the majority of the interaction with the iPad.

    Now if you want to recommend laying flat while working so you’re face down over the iPad, then that’s another story. Maybe suspended from the ceiling like Tom Cruise in Mission Impossible. ;-)

    Generally speaking though, you are correct, the easiest way to use an iPad software keyboard like a normal one, is laying on a flat surface, and for quick e-mails and typing needs. But I wouldn’t work that way for an extended period of time. 
    edited June 2019
  • Reply 28 of 46
    Wait.  In your effort to escape Windows you {checks notes} come to an article about a Windows tablet... just to {checks notes again} complain about a single article on a site filled with articles about Apple?  That makes sooo much sense considering you could have, I don't know, read one of the other articles on the site.  
    My comment was about editorial decisions, not the article per se.  I guess that subtlety flew right past you.

    Silence implies assent... the same impetus that prompted your response.  Guess you’re not that different from me after all?

    By the way, I’m one of the Likes on Mike’s reply.  The very first, in fact.
    Didn't really find much in your original comment that could be described as subtle.  Hyperbolic maybe with the "fan"-tastic MicrosoftOutsider, but not subtle. Silence tends to imply indifference to me.  Annoyance was my impetus.  The way your comment was written, it may have been yours as well.  Regardless of inspiration, ignoring the article would have kept you happy and out of this discourse.  So there is that.



    bigtdschemengin1AppleExposed
  • Reply 29 of 46
    cpuiuletcpuiulet Posts: 2member
    So, I still like a PC over a Mac and Android over iOS.  But I do love the iPad over any Android tablet.  Go, figure.  So, inspite of its shortcomings, I'll take the Surface Pro over a Mac. 
    muthuk_vanalingambigtdschemengin1
  • Reply 30 of 46
    MplsPMplsP Posts: 3,931member
    MplsP said:
    The Surface Pro. The tablet has been around since 2012, has a touch screen, runs a real desktop OS, you can develop and release software on it, you can install any apps you want onto it with no restrictions. Apple has nothing like it.
    Agreed - the even the ipad ‘pro’ is still not a ‘full computer’ in the sense of being a laptop replacement. It has the potential to be but unfortunately remains hamstrung. By iOS. 

    I had the same thought as pscooter63 about AI posting a review of a windows computer, but coincidentally, my daughter needs a new computer for college this fall as my old 2011 MacBook Air she’s been using is on death’s door. Given the issues I’ve had with my MacBook Pro keyboard I’m very hesitant to get one for her and have actually been considering getting a windows machine, possibly a Surface Pro. I think Macs are better and I can help her more if she has issues with a Mac, but if her keyboard craps out why she’s trying to get a term paper done, she can’t afford to deal with the hassle of getting it repaired or being without a computer for a week. Macs are better than PCs, but a working PC is better than a non-working Mac. :/
    Here’s something I just don’t understand....why does the iPad need to replace a PC/laptop? Maybe for some people it can, maybe for a lot of people. But for those where it can’t laptops do exist. No company has developed a device that is the perfect laptop and perfect tablet. There are all sorts of trade offs. My feeling is if you want both and can afford it buy both. If you can’t pick the one that will best suit your needs. From what I see the people complaining the most about iPads are people that are probably better off using a Mac or Windows PC.
    There are many people that need something more than an iPad but less than a MacBook Pro. The iPad Pro is a powerful computer with a serious processor, and Apple has marketed the it as a laptop replacement and added features to iOS to (attempt to) make it a laptop replacement, but those features and the overall functionality are less than advertised and less than they could be. 

    There are many things for which a touch screen tablet excels, others for which a laptop is better. There will always be some degree of compromise intrinsic to the differences in hardware. The compromise shouldn't be in the software, however. Expecting people to shell out $1500 for an iPad Pro then another $2000-2500 for a MacBook Pro simply because of software inadequacies is a bit much.
    80s_Apple_Guy
  • Reply 31 of 46
    rogifan_newrogifan_new Posts: 4,297member
    MplsP said:
    MplsP said:
    The Surface Pro. The tablet has been around since 2012, has a touch screen, runs a real desktop OS, you can develop and release software on it, you can install any apps you want onto it with no restrictions. Apple has nothing like it.
    Agreed - the even the ipad ‘pro’ is still not a ‘full computer’ in the sense of being a laptop replacement. It has the potential to be but unfortunately remains hamstrung. By iOS. 

    I had the same thought as pscooter63 about AI posting a review of a windows computer, but coincidentally, my daughter needs a new computer for college this fall as my old 2011 MacBook Air she’s been using is on death’s door. Given the issues I’ve had with my MacBook Pro keyboard I’m very hesitant to get one for her and have actually been considering getting a windows machine, possibly a Surface Pro. I think Macs are better and I can help her more if she has issues with a Mac, but if her keyboard craps out why she’s trying to get a term paper done, she can’t afford to deal with the hassle of getting it repaired or being without a computer for a week. Macs are better than PCs, but a working PC is better than a non-working Mac. :/
    Here’s something I just don’t understand....why does the iPad need to replace a PC/laptop? Maybe for some people it can, maybe for a lot of people. But for those where it can’t laptops do exist. No company has developed a device that is the perfect laptop and perfect tablet. There are all sorts of trade offs. My feeling is if you want both and can afford it buy both. If you can’t pick the one that will best suit your needs. From what I see the people complaining the most about iPads are people that are probably better off using a Mac or Windows PC.
    There are many people that need something more than an iPad but less than a MacBook Pro. The iPad Pro is a powerful computer with a serious processor, and Apple has marketed the it as a laptop replacement and added features to iOS to (attempt to) make it a laptop replacement, but those features and the overall functionality are less than advertised and less than they could be. 

    There are many things for which a touch screen tablet excels, others for which a laptop is better. There will always be some degree of compromise intrinsic to the differences in hardware. The compromise shouldn't be in the software, however. Expecting people to shell out $1500 for an iPad Pro then another $2000-2500 for a MacBook Pro simply because of software inadequacies is a bit much.
    So if the iPad Pro has software inadequacies then what do you need it for? Get a device that doesn’t have those inadequacies. I think it’s fine to argue that an iPad Pro is too expensive relative to a professional laptop. I have one but not because I need one to do pro-level, laptop type work. I just wanted the large screen.
    bigtds
  • Reply 32 of 46
    mikethemartianmikethemartian Posts: 1,326member
    MplsP said:
    The Surface Pro. The tablet has been around since 2012, has a touch screen, runs a real desktop OS, you can develop and release software on it, you can install any apps you want onto it with no restrictions. Apple has nothing like it.
    Agreed - the even the ipad ‘pro’ is still not a ‘full computer’ in the sense of being a laptop replacement. It has the potential to be but unfortunately remains hamstrung. By iOS. 

    I had the same thought as pscooter63 about AI posting a review of a windows computer, but coincidentally, my daughter needs a new computer for college this fall as my old 2011 MacBook Air she’s been using is on death’s door. Given the issues I’ve had with my MacBook Pro keyboard I’m very hesitant to get one for her and have actually been considering getting a windows machine, possibly a Surface Pro. I think Macs are better and I can help her more if she has issues with a Mac, but if her keyboard craps out why she’s trying to get a term paper done, she can’t afford to deal with the hassle of getting it repaired or being without a computer for a week. Macs are better than PCs, but a working PC is better than a non-working Mac. :/
    Here’s something I just don’t understand....why does the iPad need to replace a PC/laptop? Maybe for some people it can, maybe for a lot of people. But for those where it can’t laptops do exist. No company has developed a device that is the perfect laptop and perfect tablet. There are all sorts of trade offs. My feeling is if you want both and can afford it buy both. If you can’t pick the one that will best suit your needs. From what I see the people complaining the most about iPads are people that are probably better off using a Mac or Windows PC.
    Wasn’t it Tim Cook who made a comment about not needing a personal computer anymore.
  • Reply 33 of 46
    maclin3maclin3 Posts: 24member
    xp17 said:
    No, I don't need windows tablet. LOL
    Nor do I need reviews of them on Appleinsider
    AppleExposed
  • Reply 34 of 46
    MplsP said:
    MplsP said:
    The Surface Pro. The tablet has been around since 2012, has a touch screen, runs a real desktop OS, you can develop and release software on it, you can install any apps you want onto it with no restrictions. Apple has nothing like it.
    Agreed - the even the ipad ‘pro’ is still not a ‘full computer’ in the sense of being a laptop replacement. It has the potential to be but unfortunately remains hamstrung. By iOS. 

    I had the same thought as pscooter63 about AI posting a review of a windows computer, but coincidentally, my daughter needs a new computer for college this fall as my old 2011 MacBook Air she’s been using is on death’s door. Given the issues I’ve had with my MacBook Pro keyboard I’m very hesitant to get one for her and have actually been considering getting a windows machine, possibly a Surface Pro. I think Macs are better and I can help her more if she has issues with a Mac, but if her keyboard craps out why she’s trying to get a term paper done, she can’t afford to deal with the hassle of getting it repaired or being without a computer for a week. Macs are better than PCs, but a working PC is better than a non-working Mac. :/
    Here’s something I just don’t understand....why does the iPad need to replace a PC/laptop? Maybe for some people it can, maybe for a lot of people. But for those where it can’t laptops do exist. No company has developed a device that is the perfect laptop and perfect tablet. There are all sorts of trade offs. My feeling is if you want both and can afford it buy both. If you can’t pick the one that will best suit your needs. From what I see the people complaining the most about iPads are people that are probably better off using a Mac or Windows PC.
    There are many people that need something more than an iPad but less than a MacBook Pro. The iPad Pro is a powerful computer with a serious processor, and Apple has marketed the it as a laptop replacement and added features to iOS to (attempt to) make it a laptop replacement, but those features and the overall functionality are less than advertised and less than they could be. 

    There are many things for which a touch screen tablet excels, others for which a laptop is better. There will always be some degree of compromise intrinsic to the differences in hardware. The compromise shouldn't be in the software, however. Expecting people to shell out $1500 for an iPad Pro then another $2000-2500 for a MacBook Pro simply because of software inadequacies is a bit much.
    So if the iPad Pro has software inadequacies then what do you need it for? Get a device that doesn’t have those inadequacies. I think it’s fine to argue that an iPad Pro is too expensive relative to a professional laptop. I have one but not because I need one to do pro-level, laptop type work. I just wanted the large screen.
    The point is since Apple won't make a touchscreen Mac, if you need touchscreen in the Apple world but iPad isn't enough you need to spend a lot of money to buy two devices. Apple could easily do a version of the Surface Pro really really well but they won't. 
    edited June 2019
  • Reply 35 of 46
    thttht Posts: 5,451member
    mac_128 said:
    However, where we disagree is that in order to use an iPad flat on a table the user has to bend their neck at an awkward angle to see the display, the entire time they use the device. All medical advice on the subject says that is a terrible idea.
    The ergonomics are no different then using pencil and paper or reading a book on a table, something almost every human being does for most of their formative years, and some their entire lives. It’s no more a problem than any other activity that causes repetive stress injuries.

    The medical advice is rather specific to computer usage and to individuals. It’s at best a loose guideline, people should be paying attention to what their body is saying, and don’t try to conform to a device if it makes one uncomfortable. Eg, some people don’t have the right arm joint structure to come in near perpendicular to a keyboard. They shouldn’t and should get a split keyboard that their arms can approach from an angle. With a software keyboard, it’s a matter of changing the layout, which Apple should be working to offer more options too.
  • Reply 36 of 46
    mac_128mac_128 Posts: 3,454member
    tht said:
    mac_128 said:
    However, where we disagree is that in order to use an iPad flat on a table the user has to bend their neck at an awkward angle to see the display, the entire time they use the device. All medical advice on the subject says that is a terrible idea.
    The ergonomics are no different then using pencil and paper or reading a book on a table, something almost every human being does for most of their formative years, and some their entire lives. It’s no more a problem than any other activity that causes repetive stress injuries.

    The medical advice is rather specific to computer usage and to individuals. It’s at best a loose guideline, people should be paying attention to what their body is saying, and don’t try to conform to a device if it makes one uncomfortable. Eg, some people don’t have the right arm joint structure to come in near perpendicular to a keyboard. They shouldn’t and should get a split keyboard that their arms can approach from an angle. With a software keyboard, it’s a matter of changing the layout, which Apple should be working to offer more options too.
    Most people don’t read books laying flat on a table. I can’t think of a more uncomfortable position. Yes, I take notes on paper at a table, but I don’t find I write extensively in that position. In order to use the iPad as a computer replacement as you suggest, it requires continual neck bending and leaning over the table to see the screen, read, type, whatever. Most professional artwork prior to the computer was and still is done on an angled table:  drafting, type layout, drawing — paintings typically on an easel. Even Bob Cratchit used an angled desktop to keep his books. And just because that’s how people once did things on a routine basis — and you’d have to go back the 18th century before the invention of the typewriter — doesn’t mean we should return to that way of doing things. I have a standing desk with the option to sit, my computer monitor is at eye level, and my keyboard and mouse are raised to just under the level of my 90 degree forearms. I can’t imagine working any other way, as I spend hours each day interfacing with the computer. I can’t imagine how much pain I’d be in if my head was bent, hunched over the desk so I could see the iPad display.

    I guess this is where we agree to disagree.
  • Reply 37 of 46
    chasmchasm Posts: 3,305member
    KITA said:
    Interesting timing for the review given the redesigned 2019 version might only be a few months away.
    Let me stop you right there ... the 10nm chips Intel is shipping this year are only the lowest-end and slowest chips in the entire line. The 10nm chips one would use in a Surface or MacBook are coming sometime next year ... maybe ... (and that comes directly from Intel). Given Microsoft's history of iterating the Surface Pro, the next one will continue to be underpowered and overprice compared to iPads and even the lowest-end of MBs. But it will probably have somewhat better graphics, processor and ... years late .. USB-C (gen 1 or gen 2?).

    It's not going to move the needle, and the Surface Pro will continue to sell a tiny fraction of what iPads/MBs sell. The overall Surface line does somewhat better, but is only a real competitor to Apple's gear in terms of its very nice, high-quality form factor engineering. The other big problem is that ... Windows tablet mode sucks. There I said it.
  • Reply 38 of 46
    bestkeptsecretbestkeptsecret Posts: 4,265member

    I've been using a Surface Pro 4 for a couple of years now and a Surface Pro 3 for a year before that. I use it akin to a Mac Mini - by connecting an external keyboard, monitor and mouse.

    The keyboard included with the Surface isn't stellar and I actually like it a lot less than the keyboard on the MBP 2018. As for the touchscreen - well, it really is a mixed bag. It's not as slick as the iPad and the stylus isn't as responsive as the Apple Pencil.

    It cannot be used as a laptop because it just falls over if you have it on your lap. You always need a table for it.

    The ports themselves are pretty wonky. The external monitor port is pretty unreliable and the cable has to be plugged in at some precise angle for the monitor to work.

    Overall, I'd opt for a Dell in a heartbeat if I had the choice.

  • Reply 39 of 46
    LatkoLatko Posts: 398member
    This review lacks the mentioning that Surface is a touch laptop - a category that Apple doesn’t have (c.q. lamented) It’s like comparing a hatchback with a tractor and a race-car, simultaneously (and then whining about tradeoffs)
    edited June 2019
  • Reply 40 of 46
    Abalos65Abalos65 Posts: 64member
    I'm disappointed in this review. It reads to me as it is worse, because Windows. If it was a review on the hardware primarily, this would less of a problem. But you only give surface level review of the hardware itself by listing of the specs and in two sentences describing the keyboard and trackpad before delving into the main point of software. There is no mentioning of actual day to day use; things like battery life, performance, how useful the kickstand is , does the pen work better than the Apple pencil etc, etc.
    If you are going to say that the software is worse, because of lack of 'integration' and 'synergy' as your main point, it would benefit the reader if you give at least some examples to support this conclusion. Explaining how this is not possible on Windows, or how the way Windows does it is more cumbersome would convince readers in your conclusions.
    bigtds
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