“Apple would have to formalize cursor input device access, though.”
this. Currently it feels like Apple doesn’t really want to make mouse access a “thing”, which I think is a mistake - they should have enabled mouse access in iOS years ago.
I think that what they’ve done so far is really just sticking their toe in the water. More of a “Let’s see how people react to it.” More than anything else. I expect to see expanded access.
I'm probably the odd man out, but I've not missed "not" having a mouse in the iPad since the recent changes to allow precise cursor positioning. Multitasking on the iPad could use a rethink, I would say, but I kind of like the default "focus mode" really ... I've never needed to have more than two apps open at the same time, and even then it's only long enough to drag something from one app into the other app (web image into notes, text from one app into another text app, et al).
I find myself more productive on the iPad than I am on any other machine I have access to (MBPs, mostly) thanks to that forced "focus" of full-screen as default (oddly, full-screen on my MBP drives me crazy though -- odd, I know).
One other point: just because something is located in Accessibility doesn't mean it's not a "real feature." The first thing I did when I got my latest MBP was turn on three-finger drag ... which is (now) an Accessibility feature.
We’re seeing people say the same thing about the files accessing. Some are afraid that when Apple does this, they will be forced to use it. But as we see with files, and multitasking, you don’t have to use it. You don’t even have to know it’s there, and everything works exactly the same as it did.
the problem apple is having with these new features is making them work well without forcing them on other people. That results in compromises. Apple seems to be trying variations over time. Hopefully, at some point, they will figure it all out.
I'm probably the odd man out, but I've not missed "not" having a mouse in the iPad since the recent changes to allow precise cursor positioning. Multitasking on the iPad could use a rethink, I would say, but I kind of like the default "focus mode" really ... I've never needed to have more than two apps open at the same time, and even then it's only long enough to drag something from one app into the other app (web image into notes, text from one app into another text app, et al).
I find myself more productive on the iPad than I am on any other machine I have access to (MBPs, mostly) thanks to that forced "focus" of full-screen as default (oddly, full-screen on my MBP drives me crazy though -- odd, I know).
One other point: just because something is located in Accessibility doesn't mean it's not a "real feature." The first thing I did when I got my latest MBP was turn on three-finger drag ... which is (now) an Accessibility feature.
Do you use an external keyboard?
I have no desire whatsoever for an external keyboard or a mouse/trackpad for my iPad Pro 10.5. Apple should provide the support, but I hope their first priority is refining the Touch UI, including the software keyboard. Lots of refinement and bugs to fix. This recent round of iPad complaints have been frustrating. It seems there are a lot of vocal people like Gruber who really don’t know how to use an iPad, and really prefer the macOS UI they’ve been using for decades now. I’m reading all these criticisms, wondering if these purported computer “artisans” have been boxed in by decades of WIMP UI usage, and can’t adjust to different ways to do things anymore.
There are a lot of things that needs to be done with iPadOS. Making it operate like a laptop is pretty low on my list.
I like the multitasking. I find it useful. Same thing with a keyboard. Not always. It’s like that tool you have way back in the drawer. You rarely need it, but when you need it you REALLY need it.
i preordered the new Brydge with trackpad for my iPad Pro 12.9”. With the virus, it’s now scheduled for April. That’s frustrating. It’s also a lot of money. But it’s an experiment on my part. If Apple does come out with this, I can’t imagine they will leave everything as it is. Enhanced control has got to come with it. Otherwise, no point to it.
i’m pretty sure Apple can work on more than one thing at a time.
I'm probably the odd man out, but I've not missed "not" having a mouse in the iPad since the recent changes to allow precise cursor positioning. Multitasking on the iPad could use a rethink, I would say, but I kind of like the default "focus mode" really ... I've never needed to have more than two apps open at the same time, and even then it's only long enough to drag something from one app into the other app (web image into notes, text from one app into another text app, et al).
I find myself more productive on the iPad than I am on any other machine I have access to (MBPs, mostly) thanks to that forced "focus" of full-screen as default (oddly, full-screen on my MBP drives me crazy though -- odd, I know).
One other point: just because something is located in Accessibility doesn't mean it's not a "real feature." The first thing I did when I got my latest MBP was turn on three-finger drag ... which is (now) an Accessibility feature.
Do you use an external keyboard?
I have no desire whatsoever for an external keyboard or a mouse/trackpad for my iPad Pro 10.5. Apple should provide the support, but I hope their first priority is refining the Touch UI, including the software keyboard. Lots of refinement and bugs to fix. This recent round of iPad complaints have been frustrating. It seems there are a lot of vocal people like Gruber who really don’t know how to use an iPad, and really prefer the macOS UI they’ve been using for decades now. I’m reading all these criticisms, wondering if these purported computer “artisans” have been boxed in by decades of WIMP UI usage, and can’t adjust to different ways to do things anymore.
There are a lot of things that needs to be done with iPadOS. Making it operate like a laptop is pretty low on my list.
It seems most of the arguments against a trackpad / mouse for the iPad have taken some variation of the "either / or" type of argument.
I think the truth is two fold: 1) certain tasks work better with a touch screen and others work best with a mouse.
2) With this, you have access to both -- so you can use whichever one best suits the task and your preferences.
Still not a toaster fridge, even if true, since that was usually in reference to giving making Macs touchscreens. I imagine adding a trackpad to iPadOS will work identical to a finger and they won’t be changing its precision as that would encourage devs to build GUIs for it rather than a finger. Apple won’t do that. This would just make working from a notebook position easier because it discourages tapping on the screen — opposite than adding touch to Macs to encourage tapping on the screen.
The toaster / fridge may not apply to the Mac/MacBook, but it may match the iPad, even more if they add trackpad to the keyboard, as the article mentions. But at the same time, it may clear the confusion Apple created of criticizing touchscreen notebook and giving the same experience we have today in the iPad + Smart Keyboard.
That’s won’t apply to the iPad with this. But it does apply to the 2 In 1’s. You know, the attempts at a tablet with Windows which is nothing like a tablet OS, connected to that keyboard with usually, extra functionality, that can be detached. That’s a far cry from what is being done here. Windows isn’t a tablet OS. Their try at Windows 8 and Windows RT were tablet OSs, but were miserable failures. Apple isn’t going that route. You can see why by using one of the apps that allows Mac control from your iPad. It’s about as bad as Windows on a tablet. Apple is working on something to bring iOS and macOS together without actually turning them into one OS.
you’re not being forced to use files, you’re not being forced to use a mouse or trackpad, or a keyboard, for that matter. But you can, if you want to. Windows tablets need to have their screen rez lowered for Desktop use, because otherwise, even with a stylus that’s required on Windows “tablets”, you just can’t poke the screen and hit what you want with a finger most of the time. So the UI is completely messEd up. Sometimes you get full rez, and sometimes you don’t. Sometimes parts of an app are in hi rez mode, while other parts aren’t, etc. it’s horrible. That, and price, are why sales of Surface Pro “tablets” hover around 2.8 million and 3.5 million in sales a year, with no real sign of breaking out of these numbers.
Still not a toaster fridge, even if true, since that was usually in reference to giving making Macs touchscreens. I imagine adding a trackpad to iPadOS will work identical to a finger and they won’t be changing its precision as that would encourage devs to build GUIs for it rather than a finger. Apple won’t do that. This would just make working from a notebook position easier because it discourages tapping on the screen — opposite than adding touch to Macs to encourage tapping on the screen.
The toaster / fridge may not apply to the Mac/MacBook, but it may match the iPad, even more if they add trackpad to the keyboard, as the article mentions. But at the same time, it may clear the confusion Apple created of criticizing touchscreen notebook and giving the same experience we have today in the iPad + Smart Keyboard.
That’s won’t apply to the iPad with this. But it does apply to the 2 In 1’s. You know, the attempts at a tablet with Windows which is nothing like a tablet OS, connected to that keyboard with usually, extra functionality, that can be detached. That’s a far cry from what is being done here. Windows isn’t a tablet OS. Their try at Windows 8 and Windows RT were tablet OSs, but were miserable failures. Apple isn’t going that route. You can see why by using one of the apps that allows Mac control from your iPad. It’s about as bad as Windows on a tablet. Apple is working on something to bring iOS and macOS together without actually turning them into one OS.
Second, Windows RT and Windows 8 failed badly, but Windows 10 is a different story. I remember a few years ago that Surface and iPads had very similar levels of customer satisfaction. I have a Surface Pro 4, and have no issues working in tablet mode while browsing, reading emails, using social apps, Netflix and other apps, like the mobile version of MS Office. Definitely iPad OS is a better touch OS, but I don't think Windows 10 is as bad as a tablet as you said. What I can assure you is that Windows 10 is miles ahead when it's used as a laptop compared to iPad OS At the end, every device and environment has it's compromises, and this apply to Windows 10, iOS/iPad OS and macOS. You have to choose with what compromise you'll work and live.
you’re not being forced to use files, you’re not being forced to use a mouse or trackpad, or a keyboard, for that matter. But you can, if you want to. Windows tablets need to have their screen rez lowered for Desktop use, because otherwise, even with a stylus that’s required on Windows “tablets”, you just can’t poke the screen and hit what you want with a finger most of the time. So the UI is completely messEd up. Sometimes you get full rez, and sometimes you don’t. Sometimes parts of an app are in hi rez mode, while other parts aren’t, etc. it’s horrible. That, and price, are why sales of Surface Pro “tablets” hover around 2.8 million and 3.5 million in sales a year, with no real sign of breaking out of these numbers.
You are right that you are not forced to use a mouse or trackpad in iPads, but as today you are forced to use a touchscreen. And even Apple agree that it's a terrible experience when using touch in a vertical screen, like touchscreen notebooks and when you use an iPad with the Smart Keyboard. Compare that to the Surface, that it works in tablet mode for touch, but you can switch to desktop mode and work with keyboard + trackpad. You use what ever it's better for you. Like I said before, as a tablet, iPad OS maybe better than Windows 10 in touch mode, but at the same time Windows 10 is better than iPad OS as soon as you attach a keyboard. now we have to wait and see how Apple manage the trackpad in iPad OS 14.
Personally, I don't give sales numbers to much credit. For example, Apple is the only company that sells iPad OS devices, so they have 100% of sales. Compared to the Surface, MS is one vendor of many that sells hybrid devices with Windows 10, and I think they are the most expensive. Still, I think they are doing very good, considering the issues they had with the Surface RT and Windows 8.
This is click bait to drive traffic to the information and should be taken with a HUGE pinch of salt. If it were true then you would see signs of enhanced input support in the betas as current accessibility features are for assistive devices hence the clunky support for mouse and trackpad.
iPadOS 13.4 has enhanced support for keyboards and pointer support. They are finally making the equivalent of “mouse-down” events public, as in public API. When a user touches a button on the screen, the button is not activated until the user lifts their finger away. Apple likely has been keeping this private because long press is a standard UI interaction on iOS, which is a touch for a few milliseconds. Depending on how long the users leaves their finger on the button, the OS will do or not do something.
You can see this by pushing down on say the “q” button on a Mac and the “q” button on the iOS. On the Mac, a “q” immediately appears upon pushing down and feeling the buckling action of the key. On iOS, touching the “q” button only highlights the key, but no “q” will appear in the text box will appear until the user lifts there finger. Both macOS and iOS employ long press or mouse-down in varying ways, so you should experiment it with it every once in a while. By making this public, it means mouse-down drag actions can be done, which is one of those standard UI interactions with a mouse and trackpad, and 3rd party developers can finally make use of it.
These changes in 13.4 imply Apple will have a device that make use of these changes. The existing keyboards and input devices will have improved performance and functionality, but there is always the question of Apple doing this in 13.4, which will ship sometime in late March or April.
Lastly, this rumor comes from the Information. That isn’t an ad-sales operation. Their business model is subscription based and their information has to be reliable enough for people to continue to subscribe. Don’t think they are doing it for the clicks.
One single capacitive surface with function to move a single finger around to move the cursor, and two fingers for scrolling and pressing down on key areas for typing, as expected. I intuitively tried to do this recently in an authorised Apple reseller forgetting no such function had been added. Moving around while on a home screen would put a big highlight around an icon.
I don’t quite understand what you have written.
On an iPad, a single finger drag will move a scroll view, and Apple has fancy features like scroll locking and rubber banding to help the user with scrolling and understanding where the ends are.
On on iPad, a two finger drag will do the same thing in a scroll view. This has been true for a very long time. With two fingers, there is the additional functionality of zooming and rotating for views that support it. You can do all three at the same time, you start doing it before the timer runs out and the UI will lock the action to one type of movement.
When the iPad software keyboard is out, long press on the space bar activates the text insertion point trackpad functionality, using the same finger that long pressed the space bar. This is new since iOS 13. Two finger touch does the same thing for any part of the keyboard without the latency of the long press. This two finger touch has been there for years, at least iOS 7?
Some interesting things to help people perhaps. Once you activated the text insertion point trackpad functionality, the entire display area is the trackpad. You don’t have to stay inside the keyboard area. Then, once you lifted the insertion point, the trackpad functionality is active, you can use your other hand, another finger, to scroll the view.
This is click bait to drive traffic to the information and should be taken with a HUGE pinch of salt. If it were true then you would see signs of enhanced input support in the betas as current accessibility features are for assistive devices hence the clunky support for mouse and trackpad.
iPadOS 13.4 has enhanced support for keyboards and pointer support. They are finally making the equivalent of “mouse-down” events public, as in public API. When a user touches a button on the screen, the button is not activated until the user lifts their finger away. Apple likely has been keeping this private because long press is a standard UI interaction on iOS, which is a touch for a few milliseconds. Depending on how long the users leaves their finger on the button, the OS will do or not do something.
You can see this by pushing down on say the “q” button on a Mac and the “q” button on the iOS. On the Mac, a “q” immediately appears upon pushing down and feeling the buckling action of the key. On iOS, touching the “q” button only highlights the key, but no “q” will appear in the text box will appear until the user lifts there finger. Both macOS and iOS employ long press or mouse-down in varying ways, so you should experiment it with it every once in a while. By making this public, it means mouse-down drag actions can be done, which is one of those standard UI interactions with a mouse and trackpad, and 3rd party developers can finally make use of it.
These changes in 13.4 imply Apple will have a device that make use of these changes. The existing keyboards and input devices will have improved performance and functionality, but there is always the question of Apple doing this in 13.4, which will ship sometime in late March or April.
Lastly, this rumor comes from the Information. That isn’t an ad-sales operation. Their business model is subscription based and their information has to be reliable enough for people to continue to subscribe. Don’t think they are doing it for the clicks.
They're not. The Information is as credible as they come.
I'm probably the odd man out, but I've not missed "not" having a mouse in the iPad since the recent changes to allow precise cursor positioning. Multitasking on the iPad could use a rethink, I would say, but I kind of like the default "focus mode" really ... I've never needed to have more than two apps open at the same time, and even then it's only long enough to drag something from one app into the other app (web image into notes, text from one app into another text app, et al).
I find myself more productive on the iPad than I am on any other machine I have access to (MBPs, mostly) thanks to that forced "focus" of full-screen as default (oddly, full-screen on my MBP drives me crazy though -- odd, I know).
One other point: just because something is located in Accessibility doesn't mean it's not a "real feature." The first thing I did when I got my latest MBP was turn on three-finger drag ... which is (now) an Accessibility feature.
Do you use an external keyboard?
I have no desire whatsoever for an external keyboard or a mouse/trackpad for my iPad Pro 10.5. Apple should provide the support, but I hope their first priority is refining the Touch UI, including the software keyboard. Lots of refinement and bugs to fix. This recent round of iPad complaints have been frustrating. It seems there are a lot of vocal people like Gruber who really don’t know how to use an iPad, and really prefer the macOS UI they’ve been using for decades now. I’m reading all these criticisms, wondering if these purported computer “artisans” have been boxed in by decades of WIMP UI usage, and can’t adjust to different ways to do things anymore.
There are a lot of things that needs to be done with iPadOS. Making it operate like a laptop is pretty low on my list.
It seems most of the arguments against a trackpad / mouse for the iPad have taken some variation of the "either / or" type of argument.
I think the truth is two fold: 1) certain tasks work better with a touch screen and others work best with a mouse.
2) With this, you have access to both -- so you can use whichever one best suits the task and your preferences.
No one is arguing against the trackpad or mouse per se. I think Apple should have had the functionality added with at the Smart Keyboard in 2015. If people are going to be using an iPad like a laptop, they should have a mouse and or trackpad. Operating the iPad with touch while it is propped up like a laptop display is not good. It’s like what Apple said way back when. Lifting your arm and stretching out to touch something on the screen is a lot less accurate, takes a lot more effort, just not a good way to do things. Doing complicated gestures while the iPad is vertical isn’t really tenable long term. So, a pointer device is necessary.
You see people arguing against it in the sense that they want Apple to drive the iPad towards being a touch UI device. The external keyboard and pointer is a kind of safety net, a distraction for what the real goal should be. They have to burn the boats and keep on going all-in with the iPad as a touch UI device with all the same functionality as a PC. If they can do this and add external keyboard and pointer device support, awesome, but the fear is losing focus on the iPad as touch device, and slowing down that development.
If it was me, keyboard and pointer accessories would be supported, but I wouldn’t put it in the advertising, wouldn’t demonstrate iPads with them in both the press events and in the stores, so on and so forth. They are just accessories like a case. As it stands today, the Smart Keyboards are an integral part of the sales pitch on Apple’s website, in the stores, in demos even. They already have lost focus imo.
What if there is no Arm Mac, you just press an icon in the new iPad Pro to launch MacOS? Would be interesting for everyone coding, or why people anyway want to use MacOS on a iPad. I think the new trackpad would work great with Pages at least.
I'm probably the odd man out, but I've not missed "not" having a mouse in the iPad since the recent changes to allow precise cursor positioning. Multitasking on the iPad could use a rethink, I would say, but I kind of like the default "focus mode" really ... I've never needed to have more than two apps open at the same time, and even then it's only long enough to drag something from one app into the other app (web image into notes, text from one app into another text app, et al).
I find myself more productive on the iPad than I am on any other machine I have access to (MBPs, mostly) thanks to that forced "focus" of full-screen as default (oddly, full-screen on my MBP drives me crazy though -- odd, I know).
One other point: just because something is located in Accessibility doesn't mean it's not a "real feature." The first thing I did when I got my latest MBP was turn on three-finger drag ... which is (now) an Accessibility feature.
Do you use an external keyboard?
I have no desire whatsoever for an external keyboard or a mouse/trackpad for my iPad Pro 10.5. Apple should provide the support, but I hope their first priority is refining the Touch UI, including the software keyboard. Lots of refinement and bugs to fix. This recent round of iPad complaints have been frustrating. It seems there are a lot of vocal people like Gruber who really don’t know how to use an iPad, and really prefer the macOS UI they’ve been using for decades now. I’m reading all these criticisms, wondering if these purported computer “artisans” have been boxed in by decades of WIMP UI usage, and can’t adjust to different ways to do things anymore.
There are a lot of things that needs to be done with iPadOS. Making it operate like a laptop is pretty low on my list.
It seems most of the arguments against a trackpad / mouse for the iPad have taken some variation of the "either / or" type of argument.
I think the truth is two fold: 1) certain tasks work better with a touch screen and others work best with a mouse.
2) With this, you have access to both -- so you can use whichever one best suits the task and your preferences.
No one is arguing against the trackpad or mouse per se. I think Apple should have had the functionality added with at the Smart Keyboard in 2015. If people are going to be using an iPad like a laptop, they should have a mouse and or trackpad. Operating the iPad with touch while it is propped up like a laptop display is not good. It’s like what Apple said way back when. Lifting your arm and stretching out to touch something on the screen is a lot less accurate, takes a lot more effort, just not a good way to do things. Doing complicated gestures while the iPad is vertical isn’t really tenable long term. So, a pointer device is necessary.
You see people arguing against it in the sense that they want Apple to drive the iPad towards being a touch UI device. The external keyboard and pointer is a kind of safety net, a distraction for what the real goal should be. They have to burn the boats and keep on going all-in with the iPad as a touch UI device with all the same functionality as a PC. If they can do this and add external keyboard and pointer device support, awesome, but the fear is losing focus on the iPad as touch device, and slowing down that development.
If it was me, keyboard and pointer accessories would be supported, but I wouldn’t put it in the advertising, wouldn’t demonstrate iPads with them in both the press events and in the stores, so on and so forth. They are just accessories like a case. As it stands today, the Smart Keyboards are an integral part of the sales pitch on Apple’s website, in the stores, in demos even. They already have lost focus imo.
I agree! And I've been saying so for at least a couple years now -- and been getting hammered for it.
While I never quite saw logic in the criticisms (they seemed more like excuses justifying an aversion) my gut feel was it was coming mostly from MacBook die hards who feared that an iPad with external keyboard and mouse would kill of or at least compete with their beloved Mac. And the fear could have been justified by the the fact that Apple, at the time, seemed to have put the Mac on their back burner. Macs just weren't getting much love.
But, I think, what we see now is that they are BOTH getting some love from Apple and both have a bright future ahead of them.
I also agree with you that Apple should not make a big advertising / marketing deal about this. Just announce it and those who want it will go for it.
This is click bait to drive traffic to the information and should be taken with a HUGE pinch of salt. If it were true then you would see signs of enhanced input support in the betas as current accessibility features are for assistive devices hence the clunky support for mouse and trackpad.
This is addressed in the article.
Are you getting paid by “the information” to share this? Theres no quoting of their previous form on leaks or news and they operate behind a paywall/info sharing system. Normally you quote an information sources form but not in this case, it’s just accepted as valid news. I call BS here, it stinks of paid promotion. There is nothing in the article that points to a verified source or corroborating source. You guys used to have standards, this should barely make page 2.
also, what’s with the shitty video ads embedded on olde posts?
Nice! I’ve wanted better cursor repositioning. Now just need easier multitasking. Something as simple as returning to the home screen for half of a split screen would help significantly.
Probably not happening any time soon, but as iPads are getting more powerful, a full version of Xcode would be nice. Even if SwiftUI only for interface building.
And then they could allow users to install and run any software they want, not just from Apple. Overlapping windows would obviously be better than tiled. Oh, and maybe put an Intel processor in it, so that it can run other operating systems too. Might as well get rid of the silly touchscreen, nobody wants gorilla arm.
Or we can just accept that outside of a few special cases, the iPad is and will always just be an expensive toy, and we can use real computers.
Still not a toaster fridge, even if true, since that was usually in reference to giving making Macs touchscreens. I imagine adding a trackpad to iPadOS will work identical to a finger and they won’t be changing its precision as that would encourage devs to build GUIs for it rather than a finger. Apple won’t do that. This would just make working from a notebook position easier because it discourages tapping on the screen — opposite than adding touch to Macs to encourage tapping on the screen.
The toaster / fridge may not apply to the Mac/MacBook, but it may match the iPad, even more if they add trackpad to the keyboard, as the article mentions. But at the same time, it may clear the confusion Apple created of criticizing touchscreen notebook and giving the same experience we have today in the iPad + Smart Keyboard.
That’s won’t apply to the iPad with this. But it does apply to the 2 In 1’s. You know, the attempts at a tablet with Windows which is nothing like a tablet OS, connected to that keyboard with usually, extra functionality, that can be detached. That’s a far cry from what is being done here. Windows isn’t a tablet OS. Their try at Windows 8 and Windows RT were tablet OSs, but were miserable failures. Apple isn’t going that route. You can see why by using one of the apps that allows Mac control from your iPad. It’s about as bad as Windows on a tablet. Apple is working on something to bring iOS and macOS together without actually turning them into one OS.
Second, Windows RT and Windows 8 failed badly, but Windows 10 is a different story. I remember a few years ago that Surface and iPads had very similar levels of customer satisfaction. I have a Surface Pro 4, and have no issues working in tablet mode while browsing, reading emails, using social apps, Netflix and other apps, like the mobile version of MS Office. Definitely iPad OS is a better touch OS, but I don't think Windows 10 is as bad as a tablet as you said. What I can assure you is that Windows 10 is miles ahead when it's used as a laptop compared to iPad OS At the end, every device and environment has it's compromises, and this apply to Windows 10, iOS/iPad OS and macOS. You have to choose with what compromise you'll work and live.
you’re not being forced to use files, you’re not being forced to use a mouse or trackpad, or a keyboard, for that matter. But you can, if you want to. Windows tablets need to have their screen rez lowered for Desktop use, because otherwise, even with a stylus that’s required on Windows “tablets”, you just can’t poke the screen and hit what you want with a finger most of the time. So the UI is completely messEd up. Sometimes you get full rez, and sometimes you don’t. Sometimes parts of an app are in hi rez mode, while other parts aren’t, etc. it’s horrible. That, and price, are why sales of Surface Pro “tablets” hover around 2.8 million and 3.5 million in sales a year, with no real sign of breaking out of these numbers.
You are right that you are not forced to use a mouse or trackpad in iPads, but as today you are forced to use a touchscreen. And even Apple agree that it's a terrible experience when using touch in a vertical screen, like touchscreen notebooks and when you use an iPad with the Smart Keyboard. Compare that to the Surface, that it works in tablet mode for touch, but you can switch to desktop mode and work with keyboard + trackpad. You use what ever it's better for you. Like I said before, as a tablet, iPad OS maybe better than Windows 10 in touch mode, but at the same time Windows 10 is better than iPad OS as soon as you attach a keyboard. now we have to wait and see how Apple manage the trackpad in iPad OS 14.
Personally, I don't give sales numbers to much credit. For example, Apple is the only company that sells iPad OS devices, so they have 100% of sales. Compared to the Surface, MS is one vendor of many that sells hybrid devices with Windows 10, and I think they are the most expensive. Still, I think they are doing very good, considering the issues they had with the Surface RT and Windows 8.
It’s still poor as a tablet OS. Part of that has to do with the scaling issues brought up at the end of your post. Scaling is changing resolution for different purposes, which is what Windows does with the Surface Pro. You can’t get around that. The small screen presents major issues even for Windows 10. That why it scales to a lower resolution.
i agree that as a laptop Windows works better. But then, it’s a Desktop OS, not a tablet OS. iOS is a tablet OS, not a Desktop OS. Apple isn’t really trying to make it a Desktop OS. They’re just adding features to make more sophisticated usage possible, and it’s in the very early stage. It will take another two years, or so, to get it worked out. Apple is beginning to bring mouse and touchpad support to those who want it. But the on screen typing experience on an iPad is much better than it is on a Surface.
the sales numbers are based on Microsoft’s financial data for the division. Hybrid devices aren’t doing all that well overall. They were doing better a couple of years ago. They haven’t proven to be as useful as originally thought.
Still not a toaster fridge, even if true, since that was usually in reference to giving making Macs touchscreens. I imagine adding a trackpad to iPadOS will work identical to a finger and they won’t be changing its precision as that would encourage devs to build GUIs for it rather than a finger. Apple won’t do that. This would just make working from a notebook position easier because it discourages tapping on the screen — opposite than adding touch to Macs to encourage tapping on the screen.
The toaster / fridge may not apply to the Mac/MacBook, but it may match the iPad, even more if they add trackpad to the keyboard, as the article mentions. But at the same time, it may clear the confusion Apple created of criticizing touchscreen notebook and giving the same experience we have today in the iPad + Smart Keyboard.
That’s won’t apply to the iPad with this. But it does apply to the 2 In 1’s. You know, the attempts at a tablet with Windows which is nothing like a tablet OS, connected to that keyboard with usually, extra functionality, that can be detached. That’s a far cry from what is being done here. Windows isn’t a tablet OS. Their try at Windows 8 and Windows RT were tablet OSs, but were miserable failures. Apple isn’t going that route. You can see why by using one of the apps that allows Mac control from your iPad. It’s about as bad as Windows on a tablet. Apple is working on something to bring iOS and macOS together without actually turning them into one OS.
Second, Windows RT and Windows 8 failed badly, but Windows 10 is a different story. I remember a few years ago that Surface and iPads had very similar levels of customer satisfaction. I have a Surface Pro 4, and have no issues working in tablet mode while browsing, reading emails, using social apps, Netflix and other apps, like the mobile version of MS Office. Definitely iPad OS is a better touch OS, but I don't think Windows 10 is as bad as a tablet as you said. What I can assure you is that Windows 10 is miles ahead when it's used as a laptop compared to iPad OS At the end, every device and environment has it's compromises, and this apply to Windows 10, iOS/iPad OS and macOS. You have to choose with what compromise you'll work and live.
you’re not being forced to use files, you’re not being forced to use a mouse or trackpad, or a keyboard, for that matter. But you can, if you want to. Windows tablets need to have their screen rez lowered for Desktop use, because otherwise, even with a stylus that’s required on Windows “tablets”, you just can’t poke the screen and hit what you want with a finger most of the time. So the UI is completely messEd up. Sometimes you get full rez, and sometimes you don’t. Sometimes parts of an app are in hi rez mode, while other parts aren’t, etc. it’s horrible. That, and price, are why sales of Surface Pro “tablets” hover around 2.8 million and 3.5 million in sales a year, with no real sign of breaking out of these numbers.
You are right that you are not forced to use a mouse or trackpad in iPads, but as today you are forced to use a touchscreen. And even Apple agree that it's a terrible experience when using touch in a vertical screen, like touchscreen notebooks and when you use an iPad with the Smart Keyboard. Compare that to the Surface, that it works in tablet mode for touch, but you can switch to desktop mode and work with keyboard + trackpad. You use what ever it's better for you. Like I said before, as a tablet, iPad OS maybe better than Windows 10 in touch mode, but at the same time Windows 10 is better than iPad OS as soon as you attach a keyboard. now we have to wait and see how Apple manage the trackpad in iPad OS 14.
Personally, I don't give sales numbers to much credit. For example, Apple is the only company that sells iPad OS devices, so they have 100% of sales. Compared to the Surface, MS is one vendor of many that sells hybrid devices with Windows 10, and I think they are the most expensive. Still, I think they are doing very good, considering the issues they had with the Surface RT and Windows 8.
It’s still poor as a tablet OS. Part of that has to do with the scaling issues brought up at the end of your post. Scaling is changing resolution for different purposes, which is what Windows does with the Surface Pro. You can’t get around that. The small screen presents major issues even for Windows 10. That why it scales to a lower resolution.
i agree that as a laptop Windows works better. But then, it’s a Desktop OS, not a tablet OS. iOS is a tablet OS, not a Desktop OS. Apple isn’t really trying to make it a Desktop OS. They’re just adding features to make more sophisticated usage possible, and it’s in the very early stage. It will take another two years, or so, to get it worked out. Apple is beginning to bring mouse and touchpad support to those who want it. But the on screen typing experience on an iPad is much better than it is on a Surface.
the sales numbers are based on Microsoft’s financial data for the division. Hybrid devices aren’t doing all that well overall. They were doing better a couple of years ago. They haven’t proven to be as useful as originally thought.
From my own experience, tablet mode is not poor, and even gave examples of things Apple copied from MS, specifically multitasking and side-by-side applications. I think that iPad OS has a better tablet experience, but that doesn't means Windows 10 tablet mode is terrible. And again, scaling issues are solved in recent versions of Windows 10. And if there is case where UI is too small as you said, attach the keyboard and use the trackpad. Nice to have options, isn't?
Even thought iOS / iPad OS are not a desktop OS, Apple have push to use it that way for years. When you work with the smart keyboard, the iPad is in a vertical position, so you have the same experience as the touchscreen notebooks that Apple called for a terrible ergonomic experience. Compare that to the Surface, where you can switch from desktop mode to tablet mode. You said that "Apple is beginning to bring mouse and touchpad support to those who want it." MS have been doing that since day one with the Surface. And I don't see any difference from the on-screen typing experience, since I don't use it that much. Maybe you can give details on why iPad OS have a better typing experince.
I'm not discussing if sales numbers are true or false. My point is the Surface is Windows 10 device that compete with a long list of vendors, something Apple don't have. If I want an iPad OS device, it's only from Apple. If I want a 2-in-1 device with Windows 10, I have many options, and most of them are at a lower cost. I haven't seen numbers of hybrid / 2-in-1 devices vs iPads. Maybe you can post a link, so I can read it later.
Comments
We’re seeing people say the same thing about the files accessing. Some are afraid that when Apple does this, they will be forced to use it. But as we see with files, and multitasking, you don’t have to use it. You don’t even have to know it’s there, and everything works exactly the same as it did.
the problem apple is having with these new features is making them work well without forcing them on other people. That results in compromises. Apple seems to be trying variations over time. Hopefully, at some point, they will figure it all out.
I like the multitasking. I find it useful. Same thing with a keyboard. Not always. It’s like that tool you have way back in the drawer. You rarely need it, but when you need it you REALLY need it.
i preordered the new Brydge with trackpad for my iPad Pro 12.9”. With the virus, it’s now scheduled for April. That’s frustrating. It’s also a lot of money. But it’s an experiment on my part. If Apple does come out with this, I can’t imagine they will leave everything as it is. Enhanced control has got to come with it. Otherwise, no point to it.
i’m pretty sure Apple can work on more than one thing at a time.
Exactly!
That’s won’t apply to the iPad with this. But it does apply to the 2 In 1’s. You know, the attempts at a tablet with Windows which is nothing like a tablet OS, connected to that keyboard with usually, extra functionality, that can be detached. That’s a far cry from what is being done here. Windows isn’t a tablet OS. Their try at Windows 8 and Windows RT were tablet OSs, but were miserable failures. Apple isn’t going that route. You can see why by using one of the apps that allows Mac control from your iPad. It’s about as bad as Windows on a tablet. Apple is working on something to bring iOS and macOS together without actually turning them into one OS.
you’re not being forced to use files, you’re not being forced to use a mouse or trackpad, or a keyboard, for that matter. But you can, if you want to. Windows tablets need to have their screen rez lowered for Desktop use, because otherwise, even with a stylus that’s required on Windows “tablets”, you just can’t poke the screen and hit what you want with a finger most of the time. So the UI is completely messEd up. Sometimes you get full rez, and sometimes you don’t. Sometimes parts of an app are in hi rez mode, while other parts aren’t, etc. it’s horrible. That, and price, are why sales of Surface Pro “tablets” hover around 2.8 million and 3.5 million in sales a year, with no real sign of breaking out of these numbers.
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/4027960/windows-10-turn-tablet-mode-on-or-off
https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexperience/2015/06/04/arrange-your-windows-in-a-snap/
Second, Windows RT and Windows 8 failed badly, but Windows 10 is a different story. I remember a few years ago that Surface and iPads had very similar levels of customer satisfaction. I have a Surface Pro 4, and have no issues working in tablet mode while browsing, reading emails, using social apps, Netflix and other apps, like the mobile version of MS Office. Definitely iPad OS is a better touch OS, but I don't think Windows 10 is as bad as a tablet as you said. What I can assure you is that Windows 10 is miles ahead when it's used as a laptop compared to iPad OS At the end, every device and environment has it's compromises, and this apply to Windows 10, iOS/iPad OS and macOS. You have to choose with what compromise you'll work and live.
You are right that you are not forced to use a mouse or trackpad in iPads, but as today you are forced to use a touchscreen. And even Apple agree that it's a terrible experience when using touch in a vertical screen, like touchscreen notebooks and when you use an iPad with the Smart Keyboard. Compare that to the Surface, that it works in tablet mode for touch, but you can switch to desktop mode and work with keyboard + trackpad. You use what ever it's better for you. Like I said before, as a tablet, iPad OS maybe better than Windows 10 in touch mode, but at the same time Windows 10 is better than iPad OS as soon as you attach a keyboard. now we have to wait and see how Apple manage the trackpad in iPad OS 14.
As today I haven't need to lower the resolutions to work with with old apps, so I cannot comment on it. Maybe you worked with a very old version of Windows 10, because since 2016 they made some changes in Windows 10 that help with the issue you mentioned,
https://blogs.technet.microsoft.com/askcore/2016/08/16/display-scaling-changes-for-the-windows-10-anniversary-update/
Personally, I don't give sales numbers to much credit. For example, Apple is the only company that sells iPad OS devices, so they have 100% of sales. Compared to the Surface, MS is one vendor of many that sells hybrid devices with Windows 10, and I think they are the most expensive. Still, I think they are doing very good, considering the issues they had with the Surface RT and Windows 8.
You can see this by pushing down on say the “q” button on a Mac and the “q” button on the iOS. On the Mac, a “q” immediately appears upon pushing down and feeling the buckling action of the key. On iOS, touching the “q” button only highlights the key, but no “q” will appear in the text box will appear until the user lifts there finger. Both macOS and iOS employ long press or mouse-down in varying ways, so you should experiment it with it every once in a while. By making this public, it means mouse-down drag actions can be done, which is one of those standard UI interactions with a mouse and trackpad, and 3rd party developers can finally make use of it.
These changes in 13.4 imply Apple will have a device that make use of these changes. The existing keyboards and input devices will have improved performance and functionality, but there is always the question of Apple doing this in 13.4, which will ship sometime in late March or April.
Lastly, this rumor comes from the Information. That isn’t an ad-sales operation. Their business model is subscription based and their information has to be reliable enough for people to continue to subscribe. Don’t think they are doing it for the clicks.
I don’t quite understand what you have written.
On an iPad, a single finger drag will move a scroll view, and Apple has fancy features like scroll locking and rubber banding to help the user with scrolling and understanding where the ends are.
On on iPad, a two finger drag will do the same thing in a scroll view. This has been true for a very long time. With two fingers, there is the additional functionality of zooming and rotating for views that support it. You can do all three at the same time, you start doing it before the timer runs out and the UI will lock the action to one type of movement.
When the iPad software keyboard is out, long press on the space bar activates the text insertion point trackpad functionality, using the same finger that long pressed the space bar. This is new since iOS 13. Two finger touch does the same thing for any part of the keyboard without the latency of the long press. This two finger touch has been there for years, at least iOS 7?
Some interesting things to help people perhaps. Once you activated the text insertion point trackpad functionality, the entire display area is the trackpad. You don’t have to stay inside the keyboard area. Then, once you lifted the insertion point, the trackpad functionality is active, you can use your other hand, another finger, to scroll the view.
No one is arguing against the trackpad or mouse per se. I think Apple should have had the functionality added with at the Smart Keyboard in 2015. If people are going to be using an iPad like a laptop, they should have a mouse and or trackpad. Operating the iPad with touch while it is propped up like a laptop display is not good. It’s like what Apple said way back when. Lifting your arm and stretching out to touch something on the screen is a lot less accurate, takes a lot more effort, just not a good way to do things. Doing complicated gestures while the iPad is vertical isn’t really tenable long term. So, a pointer device is necessary.
You see people arguing against it in the sense that they want Apple to drive the iPad towards being a touch UI device. The external keyboard and pointer is a kind of safety net, a distraction for what the real goal should be. They have to burn the boats and keep on going all-in with the iPad as a touch UI device with all the same functionality as a PC. If they can do this and add external keyboard and pointer device support, awesome, but the fear is losing focus on the iPad as touch device, and slowing down that development.
If it was me, keyboard and pointer accessories would be supported, but I wouldn’t put it in the advertising, wouldn’t demonstrate iPads with them in both the press events and in the stores, so on and so forth. They are just accessories like a case. As it stands today, the Smart Keyboards are an integral part of the sales pitch on Apple’s website, in the stores, in demos even. They already have lost focus imo.
But, I think, what we see now is that they are BOTH getting some love from Apple and both have a bright future ahead of them.
also, what’s with the shitty video ads embedded on olde posts?
i agree that as a laptop Windows works better. But then, it’s a Desktop OS, not a tablet OS. iOS is a tablet OS, not a Desktop OS. Apple isn’t really trying to make it a Desktop OS. They’re just adding features to make more sophisticated usage possible, and it’s in the very early stage. It will take another two years, or so, to get it worked out. Apple is beginning to bring mouse and touchpad support to those who want it. But the on screen typing experience on an iPad is much better than it is on a Surface.
the sales numbers are based on Microsoft’s financial data for the division. Hybrid devices aren’t doing all that well overall. They were doing better a couple of years ago. They haven’t proven to be as useful as originally thought.
Even thought iOS / iPad OS are not a desktop OS, Apple have push to use it that way for years. When you work with the smart keyboard, the iPad is in a vertical position, so you have the same experience as the touchscreen notebooks that Apple called for a terrible ergonomic experience. Compare that to the Surface, where you can switch from desktop mode to tablet mode. You said that "Apple is beginning to bring mouse and touchpad support to those who want it." MS have been doing that since day one with the Surface. And I don't see any difference from the on-screen typing experience, since I don't use it that much. Maybe you can give details on why iPad OS have a better typing experince.
I'm not discussing if sales numbers are true or false. My point is the Surface is Windows 10 device that compete with a long list of vendors, something Apple don't have. If I want an iPad OS device, it's only from Apple. If I want a 2-in-1 device with Windows 10, I have many options, and most of them are at a lower cost. I haven't seen numbers of hybrid / 2-in-1 devices vs iPads. Maybe you can post a link, so I can read it later.