Britain's NHS rejects the Apple & Google COVID-19 exposure notification technology

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Comments

  • Reply 21 of 83
    flydogflydog Posts: 1,027member


    Seriously, why would these government shops think they can do privacy-protecting software better than Apple, who also happens to be the platform owner? Its solution is guaranteed to be better. Thankfully Germany has seen the light and gotten on board.
    Silly argument.  It is in fact possible for third-party developers to make better apps than Apple, and there are plenty of developers who make apps that people prefer over the Apple versions of those apps.  Of course, "better" is in part subjective, and what some people feel is better may be worse for others. 
    avon b7
  • Reply 22 of 83
    flydogflydog Posts: 1,027member


    They can’t do privacy better
    . That’s the point. The fearful public will elect for this thinking, ignorantly, that the government has their best interest at heart and then when a new party or people are in charge that wish to expand its use for more nefarious motives, they will. This virus is the perfect opening all governments have been waiting for to infringe in our rights. Not that the British or other Europeans really ever had rights, but you get the point. 

    It’s kind of the same thing when we passed the Patriot Act after 9/11. Everyone was fearful and wanted something done. All that got us was spying on Americans under Bush and expanded on under Obama. If people think that won’t happen here, then they’re fools. 
    What is this based on?  A hunch?  Have you used the NHS app?  Do you know anything about the app beyond what is in the article?

  • Reply 23 of 83
    According to BBC News, the system by NHSX, the technology advisory group of the National Health Service, will work via Bluetooth. It will log when any two devices are close enough together for longer than an unspecified amount of time, and relay that information to the central database.

    "Engineers have met several core challenges for the app to meet public health needs," an NHSX spokeswoman told the BBC, "and support detection of contact events sufficiently well, including when the app is in the background, without excessively affecting battery life."

    In comparison, Apple and Google's technology will allow for contact tracing to take place without an app having to launch or wake. For privacy reasons, the American technology firms also plan to conduct the actual contact tracing on each individual's device, so that data is not passed back to any one company's servers. [...]

    France continues to prefer its own proposed system, and has asked Apple to alter iOS's restrictions on apps running in the background, in order for its app to work properly. "[Our] privacy principles are not going to change," responded Gary Davis, Apple's global director of privacy. "They are fundamental privacy principles that are needed to make this work."
    "Yeaaahh. If you could just go ahead and leave the software development to software companies, that'd be greeaaat..."

    Seriously, why would these government shops think they can do privacy-protecting software better than Apple, who also happens to be the platform owner? Its solution is guaranteed to be better. Thankfully Germany has seen the light and gotten on board.
    They can’t do privacy better. That’s the point. The fearful public will elect for this thinking, ignorantly, that the government has their best interest at heart and then when a new party or people are in charge that wish to expand its use for more nefarious motives, they will. This virus is the perfect opening all governments have been waiting for to infringe in our rights. Not that the British or other Europeans really ever had rights, but you get the point. 

    It’s kind of the same thing when we passed the Patriot Act after 9/11. Everyone was fearful and wanted something done. All that got us was spying on Americans under Bush and expanded on under Obama. If people think that won’t happen here, then they’re fools. 
    entropys
  • Reply 24 of 83
    elijahgelijahg Posts: 2,506member
    According to BBC News, the system by NHSX, the technology advisory group of the National Health Service, will work via Bluetooth. It will log when any two devices are close enough together for longer than an unspecified amount of time, and relay that information to the central database.

    "Engineers have met several core challenges for the app to meet public health needs," an NHSX spokeswoman told the BBC, "and support detection of contact events sufficiently well, including when the app is in the background, without excessively affecting battery life."

    In comparison, Apple and Google's technology will allow for contact tracing to take place without an app having to launch or wake. For privacy reasons, the American technology firms also plan to conduct the actual contact tracing on each individual's device, so that data is not passed back to any one company's servers. [...]

    France continues to prefer its own proposed system, and has asked Apple to alter iOS's restrictions on apps running in the background, in order for its app to work properly. "[Our] privacy principles are not going to change," responded Gary Davis, Apple's global director of privacy. "They are fundamental privacy principles that are needed to make this work."
    "Yeaaahh. If you could just go ahead and leave the software development to software companies, that'd be greeaaat..."

    Seriously, why would these government shops think they can do privacy-protecting software better than Apple, who also happens to be the platform owner? Its solution is guaranteed to be better. Thankfully Germany has seen the light and gotten on board.
    Who said anything about government protecting anyones privacy? Certainly not the government.
  • Reply 25 of 83
    basjhjbasjhj Posts: 93member
    lkrupp said:
    Apple and Google should just cancel this whole thing. Let the Europeans figure this out on their own. In this day and age no one trusts governments or corporations to maintain privacy rights.
    Well... Now that Germany is on board with Apple|Google, I would expect more European countries to follow. After the "appathon' catastrophe here in the Netherlands, it has become clear to me that help from the two largest platforms in the world is more than welcome.
  • Reply 26 of 83
    seanjseanj Posts: 265member
    lewchenko said:
    The U.K. is an embarrassment so far in its response to Covid-19.  
    Add this to the list. Every decision whether it was access to tests/lockdown/borders/protective equipment etc ... too little and very late. 

    We needed that app weeks ago here in the U.K. in combination with a viable and frequent test service. 

    Our economy is ruined , & thousands of unnecessary deaths which could have been prevented. The general public here still can’t get access to tests unless carted off to hospital. It’s a disgrace. 

    There is a reason countries like New Zealand did so well. 

    All I can say is whilst the U.K. is terrible it looks like there are plenty of countries making equally bad decisions. 
    Thats not what the majority of the British public think with the British Government having record approval ratings on top if its huge election win in December.
    Its interesting that a Kings College, London and Ipsos Mori poll showed that that those attacking the governement and/or not oberserving social-distancing laws were either Labour Party supporters or Remoaners - which is applicable to you?

    The UK is ahead of Belgium, Spain, Italy, and France in minimising the number of deaths per million population. This is despite the fact that the UK has the highest population density in Europe, which makes social-distancing more difficult and infection spread easier.

    Whereas New Zeland has one of the lowest population densities on the planet...
    elijahg
  • Reply 27 of 83
    There's not such thing as the "British" NHS...
  • Reply 28 of 83
    seanj said:
    lewchenko said:
    The U.K. is an embarrassment so far in its response to Covid-19.  
    Add this to the list. Every decision whether it was access to tests/lockdown/borders/protective equipment etc ... too little and very late. 

    We needed that app weeks ago here in the U.K. in combination with a viable and frequent test service. 

    Our economy is ruined , & thousands of unnecessary deaths which could have been prevented. The general public here still can’t get access to tests unless carted off to hospital. It’s a disgrace. 

    There is a reason countries like New Zealand did so well. 

    All I can say is whilst the U.K. is terrible it looks like there are plenty of countries making equally bad decisions. 
    Thats not what the majority of the British public think with the British Government having record approval ratings on top if its huge election win in December.
    Its interesting that a Kings College, London and Ipsos Mori poll showed that that those attacking the governement and/or not oberserving social-distancing laws were either Labour Party supporters or Remoaners - which is applicable to you?

    The UK is ahead of Belgium, Spain, Italy, and France in minimising the number of deaths per million population. This is despite the fact that the UK has the highest population density in Europe, which makes social-distancing more difficult and infection spread easier.

    Whereas New Zeland has one of the lowest population densities on the planet...
    The Scottish public think otherwise...and the date backs up the fact that the UK has one of the highest death rates as is and has gerrymandered the data even further so it doesn't include those that die in care homes or anywhere that's not in a hospital. Save your propaganda for the Daily Mail et al...
    kiltedgreentmayRayz2016rossb2
  • Reply 29 of 83
    seanj said:
    .
    Its interesting that a Kings College, London and Ipsos Mori poll showed that that those attacking the governement and/or not oberserving social-distancing laws were either Labour Party supporters or Remoaners - which is applicable to you?

    Your prejudice is showing.
    Rayz2016
  • Reply 30 of 83
    tedz98tedz98 Posts: 75member
    I have more to fear from the government than I do from Apple or Google. If Google were to somehow monetize this data, which I would object to, the downside for the individual is minimal. Having the government run a central data base capturing your location and interactions with others is much riskier. They have the power of arrest, confinement and taxation. I do not want any government having Tracking data about me, no matter how good the intention.
    entropys
  • Reply 31 of 83
    seanjseanj Posts: 265member

     They can’t do privacy better. That’s the point. The fearful public will elect for this thinking, ignorantly, that the government has their best interest at heart and then when a new party or people are in charge that wish to expand its use for more nefarious motives, they will. This virus is the perfect opening all governments have been waiting for to infringe in our rights. Not that the British or other Europeans really ever had rights, but you get the point. 

    It’s kind of the same thing when we passed the Patriot Act after 9/11. Everyone was fearful and wanted something done. All that got us was spying on Americans under Bush and expanded on under Obama. If people think that won’t happen here, then they’re fools. 
    You have a very dismissive and superior attitude towards your fellow man, believing that a fearful public will unthinkingly install. Yes not everyone has a university education, yes there are some that have jobes that aren't intellectually challenging, but generally people are more critical in their thinking then they are given credit for. A fact that repeatedly seems to suprise politicians who take the public for idiots.
    But you are showing your ignorance as this app needs to be installed by the user. However the computer viruses don't need permission to be installed, they install themselves. Thats why macOS has never had any viruses. It has however had malware that tricks the user into installing it, so at best this app could be described as malware.

    I suspect the reason why this App is using a centralised approach is so that the NHS can identify and track where local outbreaks are occuring in different parts of the UK. Which is very understandable for the health authorities in tracking the virus. However if this app does impact on battery life I can foresee people removing it from their phones, just like any other power-hungry app. (Viruses don't let you install them.)

    Clearly you also know nothing about history. The Magna Carta was a landmark in the establishment of the rights of the citizen versus the state, not just in Britian but internationally - your Declaration of Independence drew upon it. But the recognition of an individual's rights haven't stopped there. Britain and most European countries have the United Nationas Declaration of Human Rights embedded in their law, allowing the individual to use the judiciary to strike down any laws passed by the legislature and enforced by the executive that infringe on these basic rights.
    True in the UK we don't have "the right" to wander around with assault rifles and enough ammunition to start a small war...
    But then we've only ever had 1 school shooting. Ever.
    StrangeDaysavon b7singularity
  • Reply 32 of 83
    GG1GG1 Posts: 465member
    elijahg said:
    According to BBC News, the system by NHSX, the technology advisory group of the National Health Service, will work via Bluetooth. It will log when any two devices are close enough together for longer than an unspecified amount of time, and relay that information to the central database.

    "Engineers have met several core challenges for the app to meet public health needs," an NHSX spokeswoman told the BBC, "and support detection of contact events sufficiently well, including when the app is in the background, without excessively affecting battery life."

    In comparison, Apple and Google's technology will allow for contact tracing to take place without an app having to launch or wake. For privacy reasons, the American technology firms also plan to conduct the actual contact tracing on each individual's device, so that data is not passed back to any one company's servers. [...]

    France continues to prefer its own proposed system, and has asked Apple to alter iOS's restrictions on apps running in the background, in order for its app to work properly. "[Our] privacy principles are not going to change," responded Gary Davis, Apple's global director of privacy. "They are fundamental privacy principles that are needed to make this work."
    "Yeaaahh. If you could just go ahead and leave the software development to software companies, that'd be greeaaat..."

    Seriously, why would these government shops think they can do privacy-protecting software better than Apple, who also happens to be the platform owner? Its solution is guaranteed to be better. Thankfully Germany has seen the light and gotten on board.
    Who said anything about government protecting anyones privacy? Certainly not the government.

    And does the GPDR GDPR apply for this tracker (or other trackers, such as France is proposing)? I'm guessing NO.
    edited April 2020
  • Reply 33 of 83
    seanj said:

     They can’t do privacy better. That’s the point. The fearful public will elect for this thinking, ignorantly, that the government has their best interest at heart and then when a new party or people are in charge that wish to expand its use for more nefarious motives, they will. This virus is the perfect opening all governments have been waiting for to infringe in our rights. Not that the British or other Europeans really ever had rights, but you get the point. 

    It’s kind of the same thing when we passed the Patriot Act after 9/11. Everyone was fearful and wanted something done. All that got us was spying on Americans under Bush and expanded on under Obama. If people think that won’t happen here, then they’re fools. 
    You have a very dismissive and superior attitude towards your fellow man, believing that a fearful public will unthinkingly install. Yes not everyone has a university education, yes there are some that have jobes that aren't intellectually challenging, but generally people are more critical in their thinking then they are given credit for. A fact that repeatedly seems to suprise politicians who take the public for idiots.
    But you are showing your ignorance as this app needs to be installed by the user. However the computer viruses don't need permission to be installed, they install themselves. Thats why macOS has never had any viruses. It has however had malware that tricks the user into installing it, so at best this app could be described as malware.

    I suspect the reason why this App is using a centralised approach is so that the NHS can identify and track where local outbreaks are occuring in different parts of the UK. Which is very understandable for the health authorities in tracking the virus. However if this app does impact on battery life I can foresee people removing it from their phones, just like any other power-hungry app. (Viruses don't let you install them.)

    Clearly you also know nothing about history. The Magna Carta was a landmark in the establishment of the rights of the citizen versus the state, not just in Britian but internationally - your Declaration of Independence drew upon it. But the recognition of an individual's rights haven't stopped there. Britain and most European countries have the United Nationas Declaration of Human Rights embedded in their law, allowing the individual to use the judiciary to strike down any laws passed by the legislature and enforced by the executive that infringe on these basic rights.
    True in the UK we don't have "the right" to wander around with assault rifles and enough ammunition to start a small war...
    But then we've only ever had 1 school shooting. Ever.
    The Magna Carta was an English document...pertaining to England funnily enough...
  • Reply 34 of 83
    croprcropr Posts: 1,053member
    tedz98 said:
    I have more to fear from the government than I do from Apple or Google. If Google were to somehow monetize this data, which I would object to, the downside for the individual is minimal. Having the government run a central data base capturing your location and interactions with others is much riskier. They have the power of arrest, confinement and taxation. I do not want any government having Tracking data about me, no matter how good the intention.

    For me it is the opposite.  If I don't agree with the government there is still general election where I can try to get rid of the current government.  I cannot do anything about Apple or Google if I don't like their actions. 

    As long as Apple or Google don't have to choose between their profits and the common interest of the society, there is no issue.   But that is not always the case. 
  • Reply 35 of 83
    MarvinMarvin Posts: 14,621moderator
    According to BBC News, the system by NHSX, the technology advisory group of the National Health Service, will work via Bluetooth. It will log when any two devices are close enough together for longer than an unspecified amount of time, and relay that information to the central database.

    "Engineers have met several core challenges for the app to meet public health needs," an NHSX spokeswoman told the BBC, "and support detection of contact events sufficiently well, including when the app is in the background, without excessively affecting battery life."

    In comparison, Apple and Google's technology will allow for contact tracing to take place without an app having to launch or wake. For privacy reasons, the American technology firms also plan to conduct the actual contact tracing on each individual's device, so that data is not passed back to any one company's servers. [...]

    France continues to prefer its own proposed system, and has asked Apple to alter iOS's restrictions on apps running in the background, in order for its app to work properly. "[Our] privacy principles are not going to change," responded Gary Davis, Apple's global director of privacy. "They are fundamental privacy principles that are needed to make this work."
    "Yeaaahh. If you could just go ahead and leave the software development to software companies, that'd be greeaaat..."

    Seriously, why would these government shops think they can do privacy-protecting software better than Apple, who also happens to be the platform owner? Its solution is guaranteed to be better. Thankfully Germany has seen the light and gotten on board.
    The main motivation seems to be in the system being centralized vs decentralized, not the privacy issue:

    https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-52441428

    "NHSX believes a centralised system will give it more insight into Covid-19's spread, and therefore how to evolve the app accordingly.
    "One of the advantages is that it's easier to audit the system and adapt it more quickly as scientific evidence accumulates," Prof Christophe Fraser, one of the epidemiologists advising NHSX, told the BBC.
    "The principal aim is to give notifications to people who are most at risk of having got infected, and not to people who are much lower risk.
    "It's probably easier to do that with a centralised system."

    The decentralized approach could be more open to abuse. For example, a kid can sign up to the app, run around a populated area and claim to have been infected, which will alert people that they came in contact with someone infected with the virus, people can mistake flu symptoms for covid-19 and similarly pollute the data. A centralized sytem can check medical records to make sure the data is accurate and avoid sending notifications on suspect data.

    All of these implementations have flaws, there's no fight over which is the better one, they are working together on all of them and all of them will be implemented. They all depend on the users informing the system of their infection, they all depend on user adoption and engagement and they are primarily assessing physical contact. The virus can live on surfaces for days:

    https://www.webmd.com/lung/how-long-covid-19-lives-on-surfaces

    The systems will be able to tell when some people came in contact with a surface and when others did but moving surfaces like containers and cash complicates things as well as how far it spreads in the air. Another question is what to do with the data. If the systems can reach a point where they can see the early stages of a spread, do they force those people into quarantine or do they just watch it spread. It's become pretty clear over the past few weeks that nobody has much of a clue on how to handle this kind of thing besides shutting everything down. I think it's sensible to try multiple options and see which gives the best results.
    pscooter63rossb2
  • Reply 36 of 83
    mcdavemcdave Posts: 1,829member
    The political irony of democracies showing their true authoritarian colours is obvious but I think there’s a hidden irony here; this system may assume the hyped Android dominance is true, that 89% of people use Android in line with shipping unit estimates. Google’s activation figures demonstrate only 65-70% install base. Fragmentation should pair the number of usable phones down even further. User rejection further still.

    It seems social distancing tracking may fall foul of technology distancing itself from both the truth and other users.
    Or maybe Facebook came up with a better offer.
  • Reply 37 of 83
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 23,302member
    mcdave said:
    The political irony of democracies showing their true authoritarian colours is obvious but I think there’s a hidden irony here; this system may assume the hyped Android dominance is true, that 89% of people use Android in line with shipping unit estimates. Google’s activation figures demonstrate only 65-70% install base. Fragmentation should pair the number of usable phones down even further. User rejection further still.
    Apple integrated the necessary Bluetooth LE functionality in 2011 and Google Android included it beginning 2012. "Fragmentation" will be an insignificant factor. 
    BTW, in the UK marketshare of iOS and Android is essentially evenly split according to statistics. 
    edited April 2020
  • Reply 38 of 83
    BeatsBeats Posts: 2,642member
    lkrupp said:
    Apple and Google should just cancel this whole thing. Let the Europeans figure this out on their own. In this day and age no one trusts governments or corporations to maintain privacy rights.

    Funny isn't it? The same officials who demand backdoors are claiming this thing is unsafe because they don't have the keys to the data.

    I think Google is salivating over the idea.
  • Reply 39 of 83
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 11,764member
    According to BBC News, the system by NHSX, the technology advisory group of the National Health Service, will work via Bluetooth. It will log when any two devices are close enough together for longer than an unspecified amount of time, and relay that information to the central database.

    "Engineers have met several core challenges for the app to meet public health needs," an NHSX spokeswoman told the BBC, "and support detection of contact events sufficiently well, including when the app is in the background, without excessively affecting battery life."

    In comparison, Apple and Google's technology will allow for contact tracing to take place without an app having to launch or wake. For privacy reasons, the American technology firms also plan to conduct the actual contact tracing on each individual's device, so that data is not passed back to any one company's servers. [...]

    France continues to prefer its own proposed system, and has asked Apple to alter iOS's restrictions on apps running in the background, in order for its app to work properly. "[Our] privacy principles are not going to change," responded Gary Davis, Apple's global director of privacy. "They are fundamental privacy principles that are needed to make this work."
    "Yeaaahh. If you could just go ahead and leave the software development to software companies, that'd be greeaaat..."

    Seriously, why would these government shops think they can do privacy-protecting software better than Apple, who also happens to be the platform owner? Its solution is guaranteed to be better. Thankfully Germany has seen the light and gotten on board.
    They can’t do privacy better. That’s the point. The fearful public will elect for this thinking, ignorantly, that the government has their best interest at heart and then when a new party or people are in charge that wish to expand its use for more nefarious motives, they will. This virus is the perfect opening all governments have been waiting for to infringe in our rights. Not that the British or other Europeans really ever had rights, but you get the point. 

    It’s kind of the same thing when we passed the Patriot Act after 9/11. Everyone was fearful and wanted something done. All that got us was spying on Americans under Bush and expanded on under Obama. If people think that won’t happen here, then they’re fools. 
    Of course they do. I may disagree with this decision, but the claim that Europe doesn't have freedom (because socialism!? rolleyes) is absurd. 
  • Reply 40 of 83
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 11,764member
    flydog said:


    Seriously, why would these government shops think they can do privacy-protecting software better than Apple, who also happens to be the platform owner? Its solution is guaranteed to be better. Thankfully Germany has seen the light and gotten on board.
    Silly argument.  It is in fact possible for third-party developers to make better apps than Apple, and there are plenty of developers who make apps that people prefer over the Apple versions of those apps.  Of course, "better" is in part subjective, and what some people feel is better may be worse for others. 
    Nope. I do not believe third-party app devs can build this better than Apple can. Apple has more access to the platform and can of course do it with less overhead that app devs using public APIs. I also imagine will work better across borders. Apple is also more mindful of privacy than the British government. A centralized database is a poor idea.
    edited April 2020
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