Apple Silicon Mac mini dev kit looks like a desktop iPad Pro

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Comments

  • Reply 21 of 76
    seanismorrisseanismorris Posts: 1,624member
    mretondo said:
    Apple made it perfectly clear that ARM is slower than Intel. In fact they screamed it out load if you were listening. There wasn’t a single side by side demo of FCP X running on two Macs doing a long task like rendering. Intel takes 2 minutes while ARM takes 1.5 minutes. That’s all it would’ve taken to show how fast ARM is. The reason, ARM is slower!
    There’s not enough information to conclude that.  We have tablet hardware running a desktop OS.  This isn’t the hardware that will be shipping to customers.

    All this is, is hardware so the devs can kick the tires and fix their code.
    StrangeDaysMplsPjdb8167watto_cobra
  • Reply 22 of 76
    fastasleepfastasleep Posts: 6,145member
    ...
    However, the more we learn about Apple's existing SoCs, and the Apple Silicon effort as a whole, the more confidence we have that Apple is indeed beating Intel in many respects already. The idea that Apple's custom silicon can only handle "mobile" workloads is the same sort of disparaging presumption that fueled the dismissive notion that iPads were only "media consumption devices" and not "real" on some level.



    Sorry, but without an external keyboard and mouse or trackpad the iPad WAS mostly just an output device and not a "real computer" capable of "real work".
    Fortunately, that is no longer the case -- iPad is wearing big boy pants now -- and ready to challenge MacBooks.  In fact, with yesterday's announcements, one wonders why one would choose a MacBook over the iPad Pro with Magic Keyboard.
    You have a feeling that iPad has become as capable as macOS.
    I have a feeling that macOS or the Mac in general is becoming less capable and "general purpose usable", more like a super expensive iPad.
    Which makes zero sense when you actually think about it, given there's been no reduction in capability.

    tyler82 said:
    Is the $50,000 Mac Pro now obsolete?
    No, why would it be?

    The way I was reading it, when you sign up for the developer kit, you get the hardware, but you don’t own it.

    ???

    Maybe it’s like a lease.... as long as you pay your fees you can’t keep it.  If that’s the case, upgrading the memory (etc) might not be a good idea.
    It's a loaner, just like with the Intel transition. Why would you be upgrading the memory?
    StrangeDaysFidonet127Dan_Dilgerwatto_cobra
  • Reply 23 of 76
    fastasleepfastasleep Posts: 6,145member
    mretondo said:
    Apple made it perfectly clear that ARM is slower than Intel. In fact they screamed it out load if you were listening. There wasn’t a single side by side demo of FCP X running on two Macs doing a long task like rendering. Intel takes 2 minutes while ARM takes 1.5 minutes. That’s all it would’ve taken to show how fast ARM is. The reason, ARM is slower!
    No they didn't. The iPad Pro is as fast as a MacBook Pro in single core scores. Production Apple Silicon Macs will undoubtedly be faster. They're not going to demo software or show benchmarks before they reveal shipping hardware.
    commentzillaFidonet127Rayz2016jdb8167Dan_Dilgerwatto_cobra
  • Reply 24 of 76
    Completely disagree, the ARM chip could have been compared to a Mac mini or whatever Mac they saw fit but they didn’t! They showed FCP and said it’s fast but didn’t even say it’s X times faster than XXX. I’ve been with Apple since 1980 and been an Apple ][, Mac and iPhone develop. They are definitely hiding real speeds. The ARM MAC would be great for a low end Mac Book to get the better battery life buts that’s it. 
    edited June 2020 muthuk_vanalingammike54
  • Reply 25 of 76
    mretondo said:
    Apple made it perfectly clear that ARM is slower than Intel. In fact they screamed it out load if you were listening. There wasn’t a single side by side demo of FCP X running on two Macs doing a long task like rendering. Intel takes 2 minutes while ARM takes 1.5 minutes. That’s all it would’ve taken to show how fast ARM is. The reason, ARM is slower!
    I don't think there was a side by side demo because the A12Z isn't going to be the shipping chip. I'm betting on a beefier design meant to wow the crowd.

    That aside, my 2020 13" MBP 10th GEN i7 can't run Tomb Raider at 30 fps in 1080p. That told me everything I needed to know. Most everything they showed would choke my brand new MBP. While the graphics are impressive they'll need a beefier design to eliminate AMD/NIVIDA dGPUs.
    fastasleepjdb8167mike54watto_cobra
  • Reply 26 of 76
    mretondo said:
    Completely disagree, the ARM chip could have been compared to a Mac mini or whatever Mac they saw fit but they didn’t! They showed FCP and said it’s fast but didn’t even say it’s X times faster than XXX. I’ve been with Apple since 1980 and been an Apple ][, Mac and iPhone develop. They are definitely hiding real speeds. The ARM MAC would be great for a low end Mac Book to get the better battery life buts that’s it. 
    It a developers conference. They were focused on the transition. Why tout the speed of a non-shipping device? All they needed to do at this point is to show that the new Apple Silicon can do the job. The wow will come during the Fall keynote when they have something to sell.

    A two year transition is quick, so we can bet that they already have working prototypes of every mac that's going to ship within that period, along with the new processors that power them. I don't see them using dozens of chips, more than likely 2 or 3 total clocked differently and possibly used in parallel. If anything they will simplify the and streamline the inline up for rapid development cycles.
    Fidonet127Rayz2016chiajdb8167mike54watto_cobra
  • Reply 27 of 76
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    Sorry, but without an external keyboard and mouse or trackpad the iPad WAS mostly just an output device and not a "real computer" capable of "real work".
    Fortunately, that is no longer the case -- iPad is wearing big boy pants now -- and ready to challenge MacBooks.  In fact, with yesterday's announcements, one wonders why one would choose a MacBook over the iPad Pro with Magic Keyboard.
    The original iPad had an external keyboard. And while the trackpad cursor is an interesting development, it hasn't materially changed the usefulness of the platform. The core value of iPad is its mobility and the fact that it can be used without setting up any "desktop" to work from. 

    Apple is obviosuly not trying to "challenge" MacBooks. On what planet does that even make sense?

    And lots of people buy a MacBook to use it as a conventional, light & thin notebook used for typing. That's not new either.  
    You, and others missed the point:   I was responding to the author who stated that iPad was always a [fully functional] "real computer" rather than just an output device.  

    But, to respond to your points:
    The external keyboard without a mouse or trackpad was of very limited utility.   As I said, with the addition of the trackpad, the iPad grew up into a real computer.
    And, whether Apple is trying to challenge MacBooks or not, the iPad now does and will.   Yes, the MacBook does have a somewhat more robust OS.   But the general user likely never takes advantage of that.

  • Reply 28 of 76
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    ...
    However, the more we learn about Apple's existing SoCs, and the Apple Silicon effort as a whole, the more confidence we have that Apple is indeed beating Intel in many respects already. The idea that Apple's custom silicon can only handle "mobile" workloads is the same sort of disparaging presumption that fueled the dismissive notion that iPads were only "media consumption devices" and not "real" on some level.



    Sorry, but without an external keyboard and mouse or trackpad the iPad WAS mostly just an output device and not a "real computer" capable of "real work".
    Fortunately, that is no longer the case -- iPad is wearing big boy pants now -- and ready to challenge MacBooks.  In fact, with yesterday's announcements, one wonders why one would choose a MacBook over the iPad Pro with Magic Keyboard.
    You have a feeling that iPad has become as capable as macOS.
    I have a feeling that macOS or the Mac in general is becoming less capable and "general purpose usable", more like a super expensive iPad.
    I actually think you're agreeing with him.  You've just said it in a different way.

    LOL...  I hope he isn't agreeing with me -- because I certainly don't agree with him.

    iPadOS was never meant to be as capable as MacOS.   But, for most general users, either will do the job.
    I have no idea why he is saying that MacOS is becoming less capable.
  • Reply 29 of 76
    fastasleepfastasleep Posts: 6,145member
    mretondo said:
    Completely disagree, the ARM chip could have been compared to a Mac mini or whatever Mac they saw fit but they didn’t! They showed FCP and said it’s fast but didn’t even say it’s X times faster than XXX. I’ve been with Apple since 1980 and been an Apple ][, Mac and iPhone develop. They are definitely hiding real speeds. The ARM MAC would be great for a low end Mac Book to get the better battery life buts that’s it. 
    You can disagree, but you're wrong. 

    The A12Z in the dev kit is the only chip they've shown stuff running on thus far. We don't know how fast the chips they're making for production Macs will be, and there's absolutely no reason to tout any of that without a product to show it off in, much less a whole range of products that will offer different speeds. We already know the A12Z is faster than current gen MacBook Pros in single core and close in multicore, and we also know that the GPU performance of that demo smokes Intel's integrated graphics. So your "low end Mac Book" theory is clearly wrong.

    You know you can look up Geekbench stats for both the current Mac mini and A12Z yourself, right? This doesn't even address the GPU advantages they already have, but here you go anyway:



    If you think Apple is doing all this and is going to show off the slowest 2020 Macs ever in the fall then you're not really thinking this through.
    StrangeDaysFidonet127jdb8167chiawatto_cobra
  • Reply 30 of 76
    So basically the new MBP will be an iPad without touchscreen with build-in keyboard and more ports. 

    Memory, storage and would be all packed on a few large chips on a single small motherboard. 
    It will be thin, light, with battery lasts a whole week. 

    If Apple feels more adventurous, maybe a modular Mac pro with Lego like expansion boxes and accessories.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 31 of 76
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 12,205member
    rob53 said:
    “This doesn't mean that Apple's platforms are converging, however. The Mac remains optimized to work in a conventional computing desktop, driven largely by a keyboard and precise pointer rather than touch screens. There's no evidence that Apple is evaluating a shift to make its Mac displays into touchscreens, for example. That also indicates that Apple Pencil is not coming to the Mac anytime soon, nor will MacBook screens begin detaching to turn into an oddly shaped tablet, just because everyone else is trying that out.“

    But, but, but...since you CAN hook an iPad Pro up to an existing Mac, you can use a Pencil on a Mac, now...today...
    You can use the Pencil on the iPad Pro, not on the Mac's screen. It's the same as using any drawing tablet connected to a Mac, something that's worked for years. Of course, using iPad apps with a Pencil in Big Sur should mean you're actually using the iPad drawing tablet in the same app on both platforms. Yes, it will get confusing but once Apple software no longer differentiates itself between platforms, my hope is one AppleOS will run on every Apple platform using the capabilities it needs. I just made the last part up but wonder if this could actually become the way Apple assembles their software--as a huge bundle that installs what it needs making sure everything else is updated at the same time to work with each other.
    If you have “one OS” that has device-specific components, APIS, libraries, and capabilities, guess what — you have multiple OSes. Just as we have today, despite ALL variants being based on OS X. 
    Rayz2016chiafastasleepwatto_cobra
  • Reply 32 of 76
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 12,205member

    ...
    However, the more we learn about Apple's existing SoCs, and the Apple Silicon effort as a whole, the more confidence we have that Apple is indeed beating Intel in many respects already. The idea that Apple's custom silicon can only handle "mobile" workloads is the same sort of disparaging presumption that fueled the dismissive notion that iPads were only "media consumption devices" and not "real" on some level.
    Sorry, but without an external keyboard and mouse or trackpad the iPad WAS mostly just an output device and not a "real computer" capable of "real work".
    Fortunately, that is no longer the case -- iPad is wearing big boy pants now -- and ready to challenge MacBooks.  In fact, with yesterday's announcements, one wonders why one would choose a MacBook over the iPad Pro with Magic Keyboard.
    Incorrect. iPad supported physical keyboards literally from the day it was launched. I had one. A mouse is not required for a computer to be real — I also had computers without them.

    I have used my ipads for real work for my personal business for years. Email, Numbers, presentations, etc. Also enjoyed editing videos on it for family. 
    Rayz2016chiafastasleepwatto_cobra
  • Reply 33 of 76
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 12,205member

    ralphie said:
    This is exactly what's going to happen... the convergence dumbening down of the Mac and macOS.
    Frightened people like yourself have been saying this for years now. Still isn’t true. Oops. 
    Fidonet127Rayz2016chiafastasleepwatto_cobra
  • Reply 34 of 76
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 12,205member

    tyler82 said:
    Is the $50,000 Mac Pro now obsolete?
    Nope. The definition of obsolete isn’t that there is something newer on the market or horizon. Look it up. Plenty of people still using older IO and bus formats. 
    fastasleepwatto_cobra
  • Reply 35 of 76
    canukstormcanukstorm Posts: 2,590member

    ...
    However, the more we learn about Apple's existing SoCs, and the Apple Silicon effort as a whole, the more confidence we have that Apple is indeed beating Intel in many respects already. The idea that Apple's custom silicon can only handle "mobile" workloads is the same sort of disparaging presumption that fueled the dismissive notion that iPads were only "media consumption devices" and not "real" on some level.
    Sorry, but without an external keyboard and mouse or trackpad the iPad WAS mostly just an output device and not a "real computer" capable of "real work".
    Fortunately, that is no longer the case -- iPad is wearing big boy pants now -- and ready to challenge MacBooks.  In fact, with yesterday's announcements, one wonders why one would choose a MacBook over the iPad Pro with Magic Keyboard.
    Incorrect. iPad supported physical keyboards literally from the day it was launched. I had one. A mouse is not required for a computer to be real — I also had computers without them.

    I have used my ipads for real work for my personal business for years. Email, Numbers, presentations, etc. Also enjoyed editing videos on it for family. 
    Sure.  But until now they've been half-assed implementations.  The Magic Keyboard is finally a worthy keyboard attachment.
    edited June 2020
  • Reply 36 of 76
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 12,205member

    mretondo said:
    Apple made it perfectly clear that ARM is slower than Intel. In fact they screamed it out load if you were listening. There wasn’t a single side by side demo of FCP X running on two Macs doing a long task like rendering. Intel takes 2 minutes while ARM takes 1.5 minutes. That’s all it would’ve taken to show how fast ARM is. The reason, ARM is slower!
    Guess you’ve been under a rock. Apple processor single-core performance has surpassed comparable Intels. Today’s iPad is faster in single core than the best MacBook. Writing is on the wall, power per watt advantage is on Apple’s side here. 
    edited June 2020 Rayz2016chiafastasleepwatto_cobra
  • Reply 37 of 76
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 12,205member
    Sorry, but without an external keyboard and mouse or trackpad the iPad WAS mostly just an output device and not a "real computer" capable of "real work".
    Fortunately, that is no longer the case -- iPad is wearing big boy pants now -- and ready to challenge MacBooks.  In fact, with yesterday's announcements, one wonders why one would choose a MacBook over the iPad Pro with Magic Keyboard.
    The original iPad had an external keyboard. And while the trackpad cursor is an interesting development, it hasn't materially changed the usefulness of the platform. The core value of iPad is its mobility and the fact that it can be used without setting up any "desktop" to work from. 

    Apple is obviosuly not trying to "challenge" MacBooks. On what planet does that even make sense?

    And lots of people buy a MacBook to use it as a conventional, light & thin notebook used for typing. That's not new either.  
    You, and others missed the point:   I was responding to the author who stated that iPad was always a [fully functional] "real computer" rather than just an output device.  

    But, to respond to your points:
    The external keyboard without a mouse or trackpad was of very limited utility.   As I said, with the addition of the trackpad, the iPad grew up into a real computer.
    And, whether Apple is trying to challenge MacBooks or not, the iPad now does and will.   Yes, the MacBook does have a somewhat more robust OS.   But the general user likely never takes advantage of that.
    We didn’t miss your point. We just think you’re wrong...requiring a mouse isn’t a requirement of being a real computer or doing work, as we had them for years without. Your definition is simply a crap one. 
    edited June 2020 Rayz2016MplsPjdb8167chiafastasleepwatto_cobra
  • Reply 38 of 76
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 12,205member

    ...
    However, the more we learn about Apple's existing SoCs, and the Apple Silicon effort as a whole, the more confidence we have that Apple is indeed beating Intel in many respects already. The idea that Apple's custom silicon can only handle "mobile" workloads is the same sort of disparaging presumption that fueled the dismissive notion that iPads were only "media consumption devices" and not "real" on some level.
    Sorry, but without an external keyboard and mouse or trackpad the iPad WAS mostly just an output device and not a "real computer" capable of "real work".
    Fortunately, that is no longer the case -- iPad is wearing big boy pants now -- and ready to challenge MacBooks.  In fact, with yesterday's announcements, one wonders why one would choose a MacBook over the iPad Pro with Magic Keyboard.
    Incorrect. iPad supported physical keyboards literally from the day it was launched. I had one. A mouse is not required for a computer to be real — I also had computers without them.

    I have used my ipads for real work for my personal business for years. Email, Numbers, presentations, etc. Also enjoyed editing videos on it for family. 
    Sure.  But until now they've been half-assed implementations.  The Magic Keyboard is finally a worthy keyboard attachment.
    Er, no...the Apple keyboard dock, previous Magic Keyboards, and other BT keyboards weren’t half-assed. Regardless, the factually false and incorrect claim made was that iPad didn’t have keyboard support until now. It absolutely has. Again, I had one on Day 1. 
    chiafastasleepwatto_cobra
  • Reply 39 of 76
    mattinozmattinoz Posts: 1,911member
    Wait so you actually haven't seen or taken apart an actual machine yet?
  • Reply 40 of 76
    hexclockhexclock Posts: 1,072member
    mretondo said:
    Completely disagree, the ARM chip could have been compared to a Mac mini or whatever Mac they saw fit but they didn’t! They showed FCP and said it’s fast but didn’t even say it’s X times faster than XXX. I’ve been with Apple since 1980 and been an Apple ][, Mac and iPhone develop. They are definitely hiding real speeds. The ARM MAC would be great for a low end Mac Book to get the better battery life buts that’s it. 
    The processor in the demo unit is NOT the processor that will ship in the Macs. 
    fastasleepwatto_cobra
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