Epic Games wanted a special deal for 'Fortnite' on the App Store

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Comments

  • Reply 21 of 77
    lolliver said:
    kmarei said:
    ITGUYINSD said:
    qwerty52 said:
    This new fact confirms what there is behind Epic’s shouting and crying about Apple’s monopoly and about absence of freedom in AppStore.
    Money, money and ones again money!
    There really wasn’t any question about it. If Epic could have shown they have been damaged by paying Apple 30%, then they might have a point in this lawsuit. What they have shown is that Apple made them a lot of money and took care of the hosting, billing and bookkeeping for Fortnite for 30% of billions. 

    Those poor bastards. 
    Hosting?  Apple doesn't host the game servers.  They host the server where a tiny app lives that Apple forces Epic customer to download from.  That's it.  Once downloaded, Apple's job is done.  Why should Apple get 30% for "billing and bookkeeping" when Epic is perfectly capable of doing that itself if not for the fact that Apple forces them to go through Apple and pay 30%?  I wonder how many bookkeepers in the companies of the world get 30% of the companies revenue (not profit, but gross revenue)?  I'd venture a guess of practically NONE.

    To be fair, Epic should charge $1.99 for the app, and Apple gets 30% of that.  Then, all the IAP's are through Epic payment systems since Apple has nothing to do with that.  
    I was referring to hosting the App. Imagine how many times a day Fortnite was downloaded during the peak of popularity, plus whenever there is an update. That costs money and resources. 

    The reason why is they AGREED to it. The App Store was created for any developer to make an app. That’s why Apple takes care of those issues. So a mom and pop developer doesn’t spend a ton of money on hosting their app, processing their payments, and breaking down what taxes they need to submit. Just because Epic is big enough to do it itself doesn’t justify breaking the agreement. 

    Your handle implies that you work in IT, so if you do, let’s put it this way. 
    Some IT specialists get several hundreds an hour for their work. Sometimes, they only need to work less than an hour, but their agreement states they get paid a minimum of let’s say 3 hours. Is that fair? Well, yes, that’s what their employers agreed to. 
    People can download the game directly to their android phone from the fortnite servers with zero issue 


    Epic tried to avoid the Google Play store at first but realised it was limiting their sales. So yes, you can instal Fortnight directly without using the Play Store but it’s not without issue. 

    The difference is like selling a product out of your car on the side of the road versus getting it stocked at Walmart. 

    Paying only a 30% commission to have your app stocked In the 2 most popular app stores in the world seems like a great deal to me. 

    Yep.  Side loading apps can be sketchy business and most people don't know how to do that in a safe way consistently.  They have little to no understanding on how to vet sources and distinguish legit ones from fake ones.  So they'd rather do it the simple and safe way through the App Store or Google Play store.  
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 22 of 77
    Those of you siding with Epic, go into a Costco and tell them you want to sell your product in their stores for whatever price you decide , let’s see what happens.

    or if you are already a customer and your agreed to Costco’s house rules, you suddenly tell them you decide you want to pay less, what do you think happens to you and your products?
    Beatssteven n.spock1234jahbladewatto_cobraFileMakerFeller
  • Reply 23 of 77
    cornchipcornchip Posts: 1,916member
    I’m a little baffled by this whole turn of events..

    If they made their game subscription based, wouldn’t that effectively double their revenue after a year? 

    and if they already had a payment backend set up, they could have just gone whole hog, made it an online game & be done with it and not have to put up with any of Apple’s or Googles rules.. right? 

    Am I missing something? Is it even possible to make a game like fortnite for browser?
    spock1234watto_cobra
  • Reply 24 of 77
    I wonder if Epic’s CEO knows that profit is built into the price of milk that he buys at the grocery store to cover building costs and other overhead. When he finds out there will be hell to pay... ;)
    edited August 2020 Beatsaderutterspock1234jahbladewatto_cobra
  • Reply 25 of 77
    kmarei said:
    ITGUYINSD said:
    qwerty52 said:
    This new fact confirms what there is behind Epic’s shouting and crying about Apple’s monopoly and about absence of freedom in AppStore.
    Money, money and ones again money!
    There really wasn’t any question about it. If Epic could have shown they have been damaged by paying Apple 30%, then they might have a point in this lawsuit. What they have shown is that Apple made them a lot of money and took care of the hosting, billing and bookkeeping for Fortnite for 30% of billions. 

    Those poor bastards. 
    Hosting?  Apple doesn't host the game servers.  They host the server where a tiny app lives that Apple forces Epic customer to download from.  That's it.  Once downloaded, Apple's job is done.  Why should Apple get 30% for "billing and bookkeeping" when Epic is perfectly capable of doing that itself if not for the fact that Apple forces them to go through Apple and pay 30%?  I wonder how many bookkeepers in the companies of the world get 30% of the companies revenue (not profit, but gross revenue)?  I'd venture a guess of practically NONE.

    To be fair, Epic should charge $1.99 for the app, and Apple gets 30% of that.  Then, all the IAP's are through Epic payment systems since Apple has nothing to do with that.  
    I was referring to hosting the App. Imagine how many times a day Fortnite was downloaded during the peak of popularity, plus whenever there is an update. That costs money and resources. 

    The reason why is they AGREED to it. The App Store was created for any developer to make an app. That’s why Apple takes care of those issues. So a mom and pop developer doesn’t spend a ton of money on hosting their app, processing their payments, and breaking down what taxes they need to submit. Just because Epic is big enough to do it itself doesn’t justify breaking the agreement. 

    Your handle implies that you work in IT, so if you do, let’s put it this way. 
    Some IT specialists get several hundreds an hour for their work. Sometimes, they only need to work less than an hour, but their agreement states they get paid a minimum of let’s say 3 hours. Is that fair? Well, yes, that’s what their employers agreed to. 
    People can download the game directly to their android phone from the fortnite servers with zero issue 
    so it’s not like fortnite couldn’t do this on their own, and it was Apple that provided this service for them.
    it’s not like Apple gave them all this exposure and made then the most popular game on the planet, they were huge before the iOS version came out.
    only reason it’s on App Store, is Apple forced them to, if they went to access iPhone users

    its exact like buying camera from amazon 
    and then amazon saying you HAVE to buy your memory cards from them
    and give them 30% markup


    Well if you agreed to those terms with Amazon to sell your camera there. Then you need to follow it. Nobody is forcing you to sell your camera on Amazon, you can sell at the Hone depot parking lot?
    Beatshammeroftruthspock1234watto_cobra
  • Reply 26 of 77
    BeatsBeats Posts: 3,073member
    lolliver said:
    kmarei said:
    ITGUYINSD said:
    qwerty52 said:
    This new fact confirms what there is behind Epic’s shouting and crying about Apple’s monopoly and about absence of freedom in AppStore.
    Money, money and ones again money!
    There really wasn’t any question about it. If Epic could have shown they have been damaged by paying Apple 30%, then they might have a point in this lawsuit. What they have shown is that Apple made them a lot of money and took care of the hosting, billing and bookkeeping for Fortnite for 30% of billions. 

    Those poor bastards. 
    Hosting?  Apple doesn't host the game servers.  They host the server where a tiny app lives that Apple forces Epic customer to download from.  That's it.  Once downloaded, Apple's job is done.  Why should Apple get 30% for "billing and bookkeeping" when Epic is perfectly capable of doing that itself if not for the fact that Apple forces them to go through Apple and pay 30%?  I wonder how many bookkeepers in the companies of the world get 30% of the companies revenue (not profit, but gross revenue)?  I'd venture a guess of practically NONE.

    To be fair, Epic should charge $1.99 for the app, and Apple gets 30% of that.  Then, all the IAP's are through Epic payment systems since Apple has nothing to do with that.  
    I was referring to hosting the App. Imagine how many times a day Fortnite was downloaded during the peak of popularity, plus whenever there is an update. That costs money and resources. 

    The reason why is they AGREED to it. The App Store was created for any developer to make an app. That’s why Apple takes care of those issues. So a mom and pop developer doesn’t spend a ton of money on hosting their app, processing their payments, and breaking down what taxes they need to submit. Just because Epic is big enough to do it itself doesn’t justify breaking the agreement. 

    Your handle implies that you work in IT, so if you do, let’s put it this way. 
    Some IT specialists get several hundreds an hour for their work. Sometimes, they only need to work less than an hour, but their agreement states they get paid a minimum of let’s say 3 hours. Is that fair? Well, yes, that’s what their employers agreed to. 
    People can download the game directly to their android phone from the fortnite servers with zero issue 


    Epic tried to avoid the Google Play store at first but realised it was limiting their sales. So yes, you can instal Fortnight directly without using the Play Store but it’s not without issue. 

    The difference is like selling a product out of your car on the side of the road versus getting it stocked at Walmart. 

    Paying only a 30% commission to have your app stocked In the 2 most popular app stores in the world seems like a great deal to me. 


    Epic previously boycotted the Play Store until they realized no one was side loading their game.
    Pizzakoerieraderutterspock1234pscooter63watto_cobra
  • Reply 27 of 77
    BeatsBeats Posts: 3,073member
    castcore said:
    Those of you siding with Epic, go into a Costco and tell them you want to sell your product in their stores for whatever price you decide , let’s see what happens.

    or if you are already a customer and your agreed to Costco’s house rules, you suddenly tell them you decide you want to pay less, what do you think happens to you and your products?

    kicked out.

    Same with trying to rob a bank, then calling the banks rules "unfair".
    spock1234watto_cobra
  • Reply 28 of 77
    castcore said:
    Those of you siding with Epic, go into a Costco and tell them you want to sell your product in their stores for whatever price you decide , let’s see what happens.

    or if you are already a customer and your agreed to Costco’s house rules, you suddenly tell them you decide you want to pay less, what do you think happens to you and your products?
    Or even better say you are 1 month away for the renewal then tell them you are not going to pay your membership fee but will want to continue shopping with member benefits. 

    Or create a game on DVD burn a few copies then walk to Best Buy or Walmart and tell them to put them on their shelves but for free because you want to pay ZERO commission.

    30% is industry standard since the original Nintendo, Sega etc. is that so hard to understand? 

    You want access to my 1.5 billion loyal (willing to spend on good secured apps) customers there is a fee involved. 
    Beatsaderutterspock1234Whatsapp-group-linkwatto_cobrapoliticalslug
  • Reply 29 of 77
    Update: In a tweet, Epic Games CEO Tim Sweeney called Apple's statement misleading because Epic's email also asked for the concessions to be made available to other developers. 

    Whatsapp-group-link
  • Reply 30 of 77
    Rayz2016 said:
    I hope Apple sticks to its guns.

    Apple will. But they’re not vindictive. If Epic made Fortnite compliant again, Apple will let it back in The App Store right away (they’d probably even fast track the approval).

    Unlike Epic, who runs their business like a child.
    mwhiteBeatsaderutterspock1234pscooter63jahbladewatto_cobra
  • Reply 31 of 77
    dysamoriadysamoria Posts: 3,430member
    Raise your hand if you’re surprised.

    larryjw said:
    Apple probably makes a reasonable amount from game developers.

    But, call me a puritanical old fart, but the idea of people spending their days playing and developing games instead of making a real contribution strikes me quite negatively.

    So, I'm predisposed to wanting to see Epic go under -- the less people waste their time the better. 
    There’s nothing at all wrong with playing or making games. Entertainment is not a waste of time. People can’t be productive 24 hours per day. It’s unhealthy to NOT get stress relief and chill/fun time.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 32 of 77
    This doesn’t change anything. Epic asked for this deal knowing Apple would refuse it. It’s part of their strategy to ask for a more reasonable situation.
    They needed to do this so they would have the narrative ready from A-Z. 

    Does AppleInsider truly think Epic wouldn’t expect Apple to reveal this? 

    This article btw is a typical “Apple fanboy style one”. The way it’s written is clearly with an opinion in mind, without stating the opinion explicitly. Yuck. Just write an opinion piece then.
  • Reply 33 of 77
    No sympathy for Epic in this specific lawsuit, where they agreed to rules and then cry foul with no real evidence of foul play.

    Also, billionaires crying underdog about other billionaires is some weak sauce.

    But both sides have a point. The debate with me is in the subjectivity of 30%. What services Apple provides for any app costs pennies on the dollar (if that). There is room for legitimate discussion on what is fair for various apps and use cases. Even Apple knows this as they have discounts for certain apps.
    edited August 2020 watto_cobra
  • Reply 34 of 77
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 6,553administrator
    This doesn’t change anything. Epic asked for this deal knowing Apple would refuse it. It’s part of their strategy to ask for a more reasonable situation.
    They needed to do this so they would have the narrative ready from A-Z. 

    Does AppleInsider truly think Epic wouldn’t expect Apple to reveal this? 

    This article btw is a typical “Apple fanboy style one”. The way it’s written is clearly with an opinion in mind, without stating the opinion explicitly. Yuck. Just write an opinion piece then.
    There are zero opinions in this piece. If you see any, you're grasping at straws that don't exist. Yuck.

    If you want opinions, here they are: Epic has no business asking for an App Store within an App Store, as the terms for access are very clearly laid out. It also has no problem with paying Sony (which has a 2% stake in Epic) and Microsoft the 30% on the Playstation and Xbox, respectively, so this is an interesting double standard. The Epic gamestore for Windows disallows stores within its store.

    Apple needs to examine what it's charging developers, and it needs to reconsider not allowing developers to even mention that they can sign up or subscribe on the vendor's website.

    Consumers need to evaluate why they believe that mobile apps aren't worth money up-front.
    edited August 2020 Beatselijahgthtspock1234pscooter63jahbladewatto_cobraFileMakerFellerqwerty52
  • Reply 35 of 77
    davidwdavidw Posts: 1,686member
    ITGUYINSD said:
    qwerty52 said:
    This new fact confirms what there is behind Epic’s shouting and crying about Apple’s monopoly and about absence of freedom in AppStore.
    Money, money and ones again money!
    There really wasn’t any question about it. If Epic could have shown they have been damaged by paying Apple 30%, then they might have a point in this lawsuit. What they have shown is that Apple made them a lot of money and took care of the hosting, billing and bookkeeping for Fortnite for 30% of billions. 

    Those poor bastards. 
    Hosting?  Apple doesn't host the game servers.  They host the server where a tiny app lives that Apple forces Epic customer to download from.  That's it.  Once downloaded, Apple's job is done.  Why should Apple get 30% for "billing and bookkeeping" when Epic is perfectly capable of doing that itself if not for the fact that Apple forces them to go through Apple and pay 30%?  I wonder how many bookkeepers in the companies of the world get 30% of the companies revenue (not profit, but gross revenue)?  I'd venture a guess of practically NONE.

    To be fair, Epic should charge $1.99 for the app, and Apple gets 30% of that.  Then, all the IAP's are through Epic payment systems since Apple has nothing to do with that.  
    You're not getting it. Like a lot here.  Apple 30% cut is for allowing Epic to make a 70% cut from Apple iOS customers. That's the only thing that matters. What Apple uses their 30% cut for should be of no concern to Epic. Epic crying about how little they are getting for the  30% cut they pay Apple is just that, crying. Without having access to Apple iOS customers, Epic could not make their 70% cut. The only thing Apple has to do for Epic, to you earn their 30%, is to allow Epic to earn their 70% cut from iOS users. And Apple does that by allowing Epic to list their free Fortnite game  in the Apple App Store, providing they play by the rules.

    Apple is not at all obligated to allow Fortnite in their Apple App Store. Just like how MS do not have to allow Fortnite to be played on their X-Box. Epic want Fortnite on an X-Box? That license is going to cost them a 30% cut of Fortnite store sales by X-Box players. MS brought in the customers, they deserve a cut of the sales.  

    It is actually ludicrous for Epic to cry about how little Apple do for their 30% cut, for just allowing iOS users to play Fortnite , when Epic does even less to earn their 70% cut from the same iOS players that buys virtual game play stuff in the Fortnite store. What do you think the mark up is for a "cool" 20 real dollar game outfit? It cost Epic more to ship the "cool" $20 virtual outfit to an iOS player on an iDevice, than to a player on any of the game consoles? 

    Since Apple has a 30% stake, Apple have incentive to promote the game. Not so that Epic makes more money with their 70% stake, so that they (Apple) can make more money with their 30% stake. Just like a salesperson is more likely to promote the items that pays the most commission. But the bottom line is, no customers, no sales, no commission. 

    The only thing that should matter to Epic is earning their 70% cut from iOS customers. Just like how they have done very well  earning a 70% cut from X-Box, Playstation and Switch customers. It shouldn't matter if MS has not improved the X-Box in years while Sony made major improvements to their PlayStations. Or that playing Fortnite on a Switch is not as good of an experience as playing on an X-Box or Playstation. Epic still makes money and must pay the standard 30% cut to MS, Sony and Nintendo, for the 70% they make from the Fortnite players on their game consoles. If Epic want a 100% cut, then they can build their own game console and sell virtual stuff to their own customers. If Epic had any business sense at all, they should be doing all they can to see that Apple earns as much money as possible from their 30% cut, as it would mean Epic will earn more than twice as much with their 70%.   

     
    edited August 2020 hlee1169aderutterspock1234watto_cobraFileMakerFellerDetnator
  • Reply 36 of 77
    flydogflydog Posts: 1,094member
    Apple should counter sue immediately with a massive defamation lawsuit. I’d say seeking damages of several billion dollars should do it.
    Google "defamation," re-read what you posted, then get back to us.
    elijahg
  • Reply 37 of 77
    BeatsBeats Posts: 3,073member
    davidw said:
    ITGUYINSD said:
    qwerty52 said:
    This new fact confirms what there is behind Epic’s shouting and crying about Apple’s monopoly and about absence of freedom in AppStore.
    Money, money and ones again money!
    There really wasn’t any question about it. If Epic could have shown they have been damaged by paying Apple 30%, then they might have a point in this lawsuit. What they have shown is that Apple made them a lot of money and took care of the hosting, billing and bookkeeping for Fortnite for 30% of billions. 

    Those poor bastards. 
    Hosting?  Apple doesn't host the game servers.  They host the server where a tiny app lives that Apple forces Epic customer to download from.  That's it.  Once downloaded, Apple's job is done.  Why should Apple get 30% for "billing and bookkeeping" when Epic is perfectly capable of doing that itself if not for the fact that Apple forces them to go through Apple and pay 30%?  I wonder how many bookkeepers in the companies of the world get 30% of the companies revenue (not profit, but gross revenue)?  I'd venture a guess of practically NONE.

    To be fair, Epic should charge $1.99 for the app, and Apple gets 30% of that.  Then, all the IAP's are through Epic payment systems since Apple has nothing to do with that.  
    You're not getting it. Like a lot here.  Apple 30% cut is for allowing Epic to make a 70% cut from Apple iOS customers. That's the only thing that matters. What Apple uses their 30% cut for should be of no concern to Epic. Epic crying about how little they are getting for the  30% cut they pay Apple is just that, crying. Without having access to Apple iOS customers, Epic could not make their 70% cut. The only thing Apple has to do for Epic, to you earn their 30%, is to allow Epic to earn their 70% cut from iOS users. And Apple does that by allowing Epic to list their free Fortnite game  in the Apple App Store, providing they play by the rules.

    Apple is not at all obligated to allow Fortnite in their Apple App Store. Just like how MS do not have to allow Fortnite to be played on their X-Box. Epic want Fortnite on an X-Box? That license is going to cost them a 30% cut of Fortnite store sales by X-Box players. MS brought in the customers, they deserve a cut of the sales.  

    It is actually ludicrous for Epic to cry about how little Apple do for their 30% cut, for just allowing iOS users to play Fortnite , when Epic does even less to earn their 70% cut from the same iOS players that buys virtual game play stuff in the Fortnite store. What do you think the mark up is for a "cool" 20 real dollar game outfit? It cost Epic more to ship the "cool" $20 virtual outfit to an iOS player on an iDevice, than to a player on any of the game consoles? 

    Since Apple has a 30% stake, Apple have incentive to promote the game. Not so that Epic makes more money with their 70% stake, so that they (Apple) can make more money with their 30% stake. Just like a salesperson is more likely to promote the items that pays the most commission. But the bottom line is, no customers, no sales, no commission. 

    The only thing that should matter to Epic is earning their 70% cut from iOS customers. Just like how they have done very well  earning a 70% cut from X-Box, Playstation and Switch customers. It shouldn't matter if MS has not improved the X-Box in years while Sony made major improvements to their PlayStations. Or that playing Fortnite on a Switch is not as good of an experience as playing on an X-Box or Playstation. Epic still makes money and must pay the standard 30% cut to MS, Sony and Nintendo, for the 70% they make from the Fortnite players on their game consoles. If Epic want a 100% cut, then they can build their own game console and sell virtual stuff to their own customers. If Epic had any business sense at all, they should be doing all they can to see that Apple earns as much money as possible from their 30% cut, as it would mean Epic will earn more than twice as much with their 70%.   

     

    The funny thing is, Epic is making excuses for console makers saying they have to develop the consoles and that costs money. What they think Apple developing the hardware and software for iPhone is free?

    Android makes some sense as Google does not pay for hardware costs.

    If Apple loses, Epic is going after the console makers next.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 38 of 77
    elijahgelijahg Posts: 2,650member
    So Epic wanted a special deal like Amazon has, but Apple refused because as Cook said, every dev has the same App Store agreement. Seems he forgot that Apple gave Amazon a special deal. Oops.

    Of course Apple should get a cut of the fees Epic charges, no one doubts that. It's the amount Apple charges for things like IAPs that don't send one bit of data through Apple's servers that devs have an issue with. And the fact that Apple doesn't allow devs to mention alternative purchasing methods within the app, and forces devs to charge the same on the App Store for things as they do elsewhere. That's probably the biggest anticompetitive aspect that governments aren't happy with.

    If Epic thinks they're going to get a store within a store they're mistaken - though WeChat is a store and Apple is fine with that, because they know without it the market for iPhones in China will collapse.
    edited August 2020
  • Reply 39 of 77
    photo570 said:
    Update: In a tweet, Epic Games CEO Tim Sweeney called Apple's statement misleading because Epic's email also asked for the concessions to be made available to other developers. 

    Sweeney strikes me as one of the least capable billionaires alive.
    pscooter63watto_cobra
  • Reply 40 of 77
    steven n.steven n. Posts: 1,228member
    ITGUYINSD said:
    qwerty52 said:
    This new fact confirms what there is behind Epic’s shouting and crying about Apple’s monopoly and about absence of freedom in AppStore.
    Money, money and ones again money!
    There really wasn’t any question about it. If Epic could have shown they have been damaged by paying Apple 30%, then they might have a point in this lawsuit. What they have shown is that Apple made them a lot of money and took care of the hosting, billing and bookkeeping for Fortnite for 30% of billions. 

    Those poor bastards. 
    Hosting?  Apple doesn't host the game servers.  They host the server where a tiny app lives that Apple forces Epic customer to download from.  That's it.  Once downloaded, Apple's job is done.  Why should Apple get 30% for "billing and bookkeeping" when Epic is perfectly capable of doing that itself if not for the fact that Apple forces them to go through Apple and pay 30%?  I wonder how many bookkeepers in the companies of the world get 30% of the companies revenue (not profit, but gross revenue)?  I'd venture a guess of practically NONE.

    To be fair, Epic should charge $1.99 for the app, and Apple gets 30% of that.  Then, all the IAP's are through Epic payment systems since Apple has nothing to do with that.  
    Highly uneducated post. Apple basically gives away the entire dev toolset away for free ($100/year is basically free to Epic).

    Apple maintains the security, the platform and the hardware. Apple CREATED the platform Epic makes most their money from.

    you could argue the 30% should be less but it is highly uneducated to argue 0%.  
    aderutterspock1234pscooter63watto_cobra
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