Microsoft says loosened App Store gaming rules still make for a 'bad experience'

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Comments

  • Reply 21 of 52
    danvm said:
    I don’t know of any other software provider that produces such poor user experiences than what Microsoft does. Honestly, ever try to navigate their online services?

    MS, perhaps before you start poking others you should consider that crap you have put out there. Forget the fact that you have tried and failed with your own devices, browsers, and online stores...
    The thing is that MS is pointing that the Apple requirements for game streaming makes a bad experience.  Considering Apple and MS gaming experiences, I see no issues trusting MS.  
    You don't even have to trust MS. You can trust Netflix. You can trust Amazon and Kindle. I will do you better. You can trust Apple and iTunes/Apple TV+. That's right. What Apple is proposing is the equivalent of forcing you to download every single Apple TV+ movie or TV episode - or some link to it - individually to your iPhone home screen instead of streaming it through the Apple TV+ app. But doing so would remove the benefits of a media streaming app in the first place, right? Exactly! That is why Apple created a separate Apple TV+ app for their video streaming (and Apple Music for their music streaming) instead of trying to compete with Netflix and Spotify with their venerable iTunes application! (Which doesn't even exist anymore on Apple hardware precisely because it is outdated in the streaming media era!)

    Here is the funny thing: you actually can download Netflix (and Amazon Prime etc.) movies and TV shows to your iOS device for offline viewing. The files can get pretty big, like 6 GB for a 2 hour 4K movie. But Apple does not require them to be individually listed and downloaded. Apple has reasons to not allow this, but it has nothing to do with revenue ... they are still going to get their 30% cut of subscriptions and purchases through the app. It is more about Apple knowing that the future is replacing expensive end user hardware (Apple's business) with a combination of cloud services (not Apple's business) and cheap hardware (also not Apple's business) and doing their level best to fight it. Using an iPad to replace a TV screen for watching movies is in Apple's interests. Using that same iPad to stream 4K games that previously required $5000 gaming rigs to play and in the process let the wide masses of people know that cloud services have gotten to the point that it is now - or will soon be - practical for most people to be able to replace their $2500 MacBook Pro with a $400 Chromebook isn't. 
    muthuk_vanalingamgatorguy
  • Reply 22 of 52
    cloudguy said:
    On day one of loosened rules the complaints from the companies that don't get the full control that they want are rolling in. Hey Microsoft, start your own gaming platform. Oh, wait, you did. To be more fair and balanced, I'll consider MS's offering. I didn't like Apple Arcade. But I appreciate the way Apple is letting this occur. I definitely don't want companies like MS to take over control of the iOS interface and experience. They had multiple chances and they blew it. Now they are a bunch of cry babies.
    Except that Google and Nvidia have the exact same model. Why? Because they ALL built their model on Netflix. Just like every single game streaming service before now has used the Netflix model. And just like every single video and music streaming service uses the Netflix model. Or the Spotify model, which is also based on the Netflix model. This includes Apple, by the way, who changed their previous iTunes-based model - which had been in place for like 15 years - to the Spotify model with Apple Music. Which, again, is the Netflix model.

    Also, get over yourself. xCloud doesn't need iOS to succeed. This isn't a new service like Stadia or GeForce Now trying to get off the ground, establish itself and needs the iOS army of premium app buyers and service subscribers we are talking about. Instead, there are 90 million XBox Live customers and 10 million Game Pass customers already. While the former is $10 a month and is multiplatform, the latter is not only $15 a month but currently requires an XBox One. How many of these are going to pass up xCloud because it isn't on iOS? Practically none. More than half of them already have an Android phone or tablet lying around already, and nearly all the rest are asking Siri "where can I buy a Pixel 4A" and/or searching Safari for "what is the cheapest Samsung tablet" as we speak. 

    The same is going to be true when Amazon launches the cloud portion of their Prime gaming service next year: everyone who doesn't have an Android phone or tablet already will just get a Kindle. Steam is also working on a cloud gaming service and their 90-100 million users will either already have an Android device or will get one quickly, easily and cheaply. So anyone who thinks that not being on iOS is going to do any real harm to xCloud or cloud gaming in general doesn't know a thing about AAA console and PC gaming, which is precisely the market that cloud gaming is aimed at.
    I guess you aren't aware I put forward an 500 word pro-Epic post on a different AppleInsider thread here: https://forums.appleinsider.com/discussion/217620/epic-says-apple-no-longer-plans-to-disable-sign-in-with-apple/p1 <--

    I haven't seen anyone put together a stronger case for Epic than I did. From what I've read I'm the only person who put forth a detailed case for Epic that pro-Apple people actually complimented. Have any pro-Apple people complimented any of your posts?

    Your main point above is that streaming services don't need iOS. Ok then why are you in such a tizzy? Let Apple do what it wants to do if Apple is irrelevant like you say.

    You speak lots about models and who copies whom. Are you trying to argue that Apple isn't innovative? I won't argue that. But surely you agree that video and apps are very different beasts because one is just a dumb stream of bits and the other is megabytes of code that takes a wide variety of potentially dangerous actions on your device. Surely you realize one can harm the device owner and the other cannot. And that is why Apple has chosen to curate the software for people, and its rules are meant to support that. Are you saying that Apple has no right to curate? Are you trying to remove the rights of customers to choose curation? I'm not clear what you want other than to condemn Apple. Tell us what you want, don't just rage. I'm eagerly willing to listen to you if you tell us what you want.

    What I want is for Apple to help protect me by imposing rules on software vendors that help keep my experiences safe and protected. And I am forced to think you want to take away my freedom to purchase this kind of product. Right?
    Wavelan_312tmay
  • Reply 23 of 52
    Comparing this 100% to Netflix or Apple TV is maybe missing a point.

    Wouldn’t each game (which I understand does not need to be downloaded to the device as it would be a symbiotic link to the game and not the full game code) have its own in app purchases, age rating etc?

    Meaning they’re not like videos that are curated inside of the host app (videos do not have in app purchases, dlc etc).

    Apple wants them separated so they can be listed (and managed, rated, controlled) individually in the App Store. I would expect a section of the App Store would curate all of these games together, meaning they can be managed and launched by the user from there. 

    Your point about this being a showcase for MS to enterprise orgs is a good one.  The future is cloud and MS cloud services are pretty amazing, although I still don’t know how I feel about everything being run there and ‘renting’ access to my apps from private organisations.



    cloudguy said:

    You don't even have to trust MS. You can trust Netflix. You can trust Amazon and Kindle. I will do you better. You can trust Apple and iTunes/Apple TV+. That's right. What Apple is proposing is the equivalent of forcing you to download every single Apple TV+ movie or TV episode - or some link to it - individually to your iPhone home screen instead of streaming it through the Apple TV+ app. 
  • Reply 24 of 52
    Actually, Apple is preserving the quality of the experience for gamers. 

    Sure, you might be ok with A buggy feel  To your game on an android or Microsoft device SS your game loads app content unevenly first to bandwidth fluctuations. 

    What Apple has done is ensure the game itself and all assets is already there  The only data that needs transferring is the interactivity data, which is TINY compared to the gobs of data for game assets and structure, AI, etc. 

    so apples system is really better in one sense. 

    However, what they really did was just APPEAR to allow competing services without really allowing it. 

    In Mictodofts case, the processing is done on a server, so your device doesn’t even need to be spec’d high yo run it. You’d get xbox series x graphics over a stream. Not with Apples plan though. They just killed off that entire thing. 

    Apple must sense that this is just a can of worms. Sure, streaming game video that has your interactivity processed and returned in a nanosecond is actually awesome, but there are too many shady characters (especially Microsoft) who want yo find a way to cause problems for Apples ecosystem. 

    Apple is right to be wary. 

    I mean look at the ridiculous Epuc situation. 

    It’s a clear, cut and dry case. Epic violated the contract and got shut down. Yet they are still battling it out in court because a shady group wants to push their volatile practices onto another company and basically make policy decisions for that other company. That’s not how it works. 
    Samsonikk
  • Reply 25 of 52
    If Steam had these same rules when it launched, would it be the gaming leader it is today? I think not.
  • Reply 26 of 52
    sflocalsflocal Posts: 5,988member
    If Steam had these same rules when it launched, would it be the gaming leader it is today? I think not.
    And yet with those rules, they companies like Epic did become “leaders”.

    Keep cherry-picking pieces to push your agenda.
    Samsonikkwatto_cobra
  • Reply 27 of 52
    KTRKTR Posts: 244member
    "This remains a bad experience for customers..."  Ok Microsoft, I see what you did there.  You're speaking Apple-ese.  Smart. 

    As much as I am a fan of Apple's ecosystem and 'walled garden', I struggle to see the risk of streaming game platforms.  I'm not much of a gamer, but I would rather have one app that can stream tons of games, than have to download each game one by one and delete them to make room for more.  Am I getting the two models right?

    I heard xCloud get compared to Netflix like this: They are both zero footprint downward streams with upward controls.  The play/pause/skip function is just replaced by left/right/jump/shoot etc.  I honestly think Apple isn't allowing it simply because they can't figure out a way to monetize it. 
    I kinda see Apple's point.  If you have one app that streams multiple games, what if one of those games contains malicious code.  Like Tim Cook one said to Trump camp.  It only takes one bad actor to compromise the ecosystem/ios.  So, I can see it from apples point of view.  They want to maintain the quality of the system.  And keeping it safe.
    Samsonikkwatto_cobra
  • Reply 28 of 52
    Says the company that has left its users vulnerable to massive amounts of malware and virus attacks for literally decades. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 29 of 52
    tmaytmay Posts: 5,761member
    cloudguy said:
    Instead the result was having a company in Microsoft that was even better situated than Amazon and especially Google in moving the tech world from its hardware-centric present to a cloud-based post hardware future. Now post-hardware does not mean no hardware. Hardware will still exist obviously ... but it will be cheap interchangeable stuff designed primarily to get you to the cloud. (Or more accurately the edge, which is what Nvidia is heavily investing in. They are trying to buy ARM because they want to create ARM-based hardware to run their edge computing hardware that will be the middle-man between end user devices and the major cloud services like Azure, AWS and GCP.) With all the processing offloaded to the cloud, Apple Silicon on end user devices will be ... using sledgehammers to crush gnats. Even the operating system model would be passe, because current general purpose operating systems waste tons of processing power - and energy - sitting around being available for tasks that you might do once an hour/day/year/never. Next generation operating systems that dynamically scale themselves up and down as needed - the way that *-as-a-service does in the cloud - are what the cutting edge research is into now. This is what Nadella and Microsoft mean when they state that they are already preparing for a post-Windows world, as Windows is just another general purpose OS that will become outdated in the next computing era. If you thought it meant that Microsoft had resigned itself to being inevitably usurped by Apple Silicon, you had better think again. 
    You do realize that Apple is in fact the best edge computing case in the world?

    I previously posted this on another thread;

    "Your HEVC paradigm isn't likely the most efficient.

    Every Apple device that would  be capable of hosting games is already Metal compatible, and the current models are very performant. Apple could create ASi servers that merely handle the gameplay of the users in the cloud (GameCloud for lack of a better term), and all, or some, of the Physics and all of the Rendering would be handled by each users device, and this would reduce bandwidth considerably, and likely latency.

    Yes, you would need API's and a new game engine to make this work, all of which Apple could make happen, and given Apple's focus on AR, rendering on an Apple device makes even more sense. Users could then embark on real world based game play, though beyond the few that are available today for iPhone.

    This is why there could be no equivalent Game Engine from MS; there isn't any mobile user base with DirectX. 

    You make the case that Nvidia becomes the intermediary in the cloud making up the deficit of DirectX in mobile devices, ie, MS's notable lack of edge computing. To a lesser extent, Google Android, et al, actually have a problem in that there isn't a standard GPU to rely on, hence creating video frames of games in the cloud output to the user; a brute force approach.

    I don't think that you have made a good case that the Cloud will usurp Apple Silicon at all. If anything, Apple is making the case everyday for billions of users, that edge computing gives the best experience.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 30 of 52
    mcdavemcdave Posts: 1,919member
    I should think streaming games, streaming UIs (web/remote) & any interactive streaming makes for a bad experience.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 31 of 52
    mcdavemcdave Posts: 1,919member
    cloudguy said:
    danvm said:
    I don’t know of any other software provider that produces such poor user experiences than what Microsoft does. Honestly, ever try to navigate their online services?

    MS, perhaps before you start poking others you should consider that crap you have put out there. Forget the fact that you have tried and failed with your own devices, browsers, and online stores...
    The thing is that MS is pointing that the Apple requirements for game streaming makes a bad experience.  Considering Apple and MS gaming experiences, I see no issues trusting MS.  
    You don't even have to trust MS. You can trust Netflix. You can trust Amazon and Kindle. I will do you better. You can trust Apple and iTunes/Apple TV+. That's right. What Apple is proposing is the equivalent of forcing you to download every single Apple TV+ movie or TV episode - or some link to it - individually to your iPhone home screen instead of streaming it through the Apple TV+ app. But doing so would remove the benefits of a media streaming app in the first place, right? Exactly! That is why Apple created a separate Apple TV+ app for their video streaming (and Apple Music for their music streaming) instead of trying to compete with Netflix and Spotify with their venerable iTunes application! (Which doesn't even exist anymore on Apple hardware precisely because it is outdated in the streaming media era!)

    Here is the funny thing: you actually can download Netflix (and Amazon Prime etc.) movies and TV shows to your iOS device for offline viewing. The files can get pretty big, like 6 GB for a 2 hour 4K movie. But Apple does not require them to be individually listed and downloaded. Apple has reasons to not allow this, but it has nothing to do with revenue ... they are still going to get their 30% cut of subscriptions and purchases through the app. It is more about Apple knowing that the future is replacing expensive end user hardware (Apple's business) with a combination of cloud services (not Apple's business) and cheap hardware (also not Apple's business) and doing their level best to fight it. Using an iPad to replace a TV screen for watching movies is in Apple's interests. Using that same iPad to stream 4K games that previously required $5000 gaming rigs to play and in the process let the wide masses of people know that cloud services have gotten to the point that it is now - or will soon be - practical for most people to be able to replace their $2500 MacBook Pro with a $400 Chromebook isn't. 
    To compare movies and games is an over-simplification. Movie content cannot be created on the device locally yet (until we work out algorithms to emulate the directors’ creative process).  Game scenes, on the other hand, can be constructed and rendered on-device.
    Apple should get to decide whether their platform gets relegated to a terminal, not a bunch of vocal Apple-haters.
    This is yet another mistake from Apple - Cook needs to go I’m afraid.
  • Reply 32 of 52
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,251member
    Actually, Apple is preserving the quality of the experience for gamers. 

    Sure, you might be ok with A buggy feel  To your game on an android or Microsoft device SS your game loads app content unevenly first to bandwidth fluctuations. 
    Netflix and other movies / TV services may have streaming issues without the adequate bandwidth connection, and Apple still allow those apps.  I don't think it makes sense to not allow games streaming services based in this reason alone.  
    Apple must sense that this is just a can of worms. Sure, streaming game video that has your interactivity processed and returned in a nanosecond is actually awesome, but there are too many shady characters (especially Microsoft) who want yo find a way to cause problems for Apples ecosystem. 

    Apple is right to be wary. 

    I mean look at the ridiculous Epuc situation. 

    It’s a clear, cut and dry case. Epic violated the contract and got shut down. Yet they are still battling it out in court because a shady group wants to push their volatile practices onto another company and basically make policy decisions for that other company. That’s not how it works. 
    Do you have any evidence that MS could cause problems for the Apple ecosystem?  My experience with MS and mobile / Mac apps have been very good and reliable.  And if we talk about gaming, MS experience is far better than Apple.  I think xCloud would be a great option for us, Apple customers.  

    edited September 2020 muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 33 of 52
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,251member
    KTR said:
    "This remains a bad experience for customers..."  Ok Microsoft, I see what you did there.  You're speaking Apple-ese.  Smart. 

    As much as I am a fan of Apple's ecosystem and 'walled garden', I struggle to see the risk of streaming game platforms.  I'm not much of a gamer, but I would rather have one app that can stream tons of games, than have to download each game one by one and delete them to make room for more.  Am I getting the two models right?

    I heard xCloud get compared to Netflix like this: They are both zero footprint downward streams with upward controls.  The play/pause/skip function is just replaced by left/right/jump/shoot etc.  I honestly think Apple isn't allowing it simply because they can't figure out a way to monetize it. 
    I kinda see Apple's point.  If you have one app that streams multiple games, what if one of those games contains malicious code.  Like Tim Cook one said to Trump camp.  It only takes one bad actor to compromise the ecosystem/ios.  So, I can see it from apples point of view.  They want to maintain the quality of the system.  And keeping it safe.
    From what I know (since Apple won't allow xCloud in my iPhone), the only thing you need to download is the xCloud App.  The games are streamed to the device, and there is no need to download code.  If that's the case, there is no need to worry about malicious code, as you said.  
    edited September 2020 gatorguy
  • Reply 34 of 52
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,251member
    mcdave said:
    I should think streaming games, streaming UIs (web/remote) & any interactive streaming makes for a bad experience.
    There was a time where Netflix wasn't that good either, but they improved to what we are seeing today.  I think will be the same for cloud gaming services, considering the investment and improvements MS and Google are implementing in their gaming infrastructures.
  • Reply 35 of 52
    danvm said:
    KTR said:
    "This remains a bad experience for customers..."  Ok Microsoft, I see what you did there.  You're speaking Apple-ese.  Smart. 

    As much as I am a fan of Apple's ecosystem and 'walled garden', I struggle to see the risk of streaming game platforms.  I'm not much of a gamer, but I would rather have one app that can stream tons of games, than have to download each game one by one and delete them to make room for more.  Am I getting the two models right?

    I heard xCloud get compared to Netflix like this: They are both zero footprint downward streams with upward controls.  The play/pause/skip function is just replaced by left/right/jump/shoot etc.  I honestly think Apple isn't allowing it simply because they can't figure out a way to monetize it. 
    I kinda see Apple's point.  If you have one app that streams multiple games, what if one of those games contains malicious code.  Like Tim Cook one said to Trump camp.  It only takes one bad actor to compromise the ecosystem/ios.  So, I can see it from apples point of view.  They want to maintain the quality of the system.  And keeping it safe.
    From what I know (since Apple won't allow xCloud in my iPhone), the only thing you need to download is the xCloud App.  The games are streamed to the device, and there is no need to download code.  If that's the case, there is no need to worry about malicious code, as you said.  
    You weren't asking me, but I want to ask you for clarification. How do you know that the xCloud app complies with all 500 requirements in Apple's license? Are you personally promising that Microsoft will not violate any of those terms? For example, like payment systems. Have you read the requirements? I spent ten minutes reading all of them. I predict that given the chance Microsoft would violate about half of them in their xCloud app. Are you trying to give Microsoft an exemption to all 500 requirements? Are you saying that Apple has no right to provide a curated software experience for its users? Are you trying to take away my freedom to choose a curated service? Please say yes or no.
    Samsonikkwatto_cobra
  • Reply 36 of 52
    Apple is struggling to hide its anti competitive behavior from the antitrust authorities, or make it less obvious at least. That’s the only reason Apple is changing its AppStore rules. Apple doesn’t want to allow game streaming and Apple doesn’t want to have an Arcade competitor. But Apple wants to survive antitrust tests, so it changes the rules in a way that allows game streaming, but in a way nobody wants to use.

    Every video streaming game has to be Apple approved? Every time the game changes it has to be Apple approved? This compares to a situation where every Netflix movie has to be approved by Apple. And game streaming already exists - just open a Citrix client or a Windows remote app and start playing Solitaire. Or watch an interactive Netflix movie.

    We will see more changes within the next year. Always in a way that doesn‘t really change anything, just minimal changes with additional rules. Simply because Apple wants to avoid hard regulations. Now Apple has an answer to the question „why are you blocking game streaming services?“ - „we NEVER did that, we only have certain rules about how a game streaming service should be represented in our AppStore“
  • Reply 37 of 52
    kbee said:
    Apple is struggling to hide its anti competitive behavior from the antitrust authorities, or make it less obvious at least. That’s the only reason Apple is changing its AppStore rules. Apple doesn’t want to allow game streaming and Apple doesn’t want to have an Arcade competitor. But Apple wants to survive antitrust tests, so it changes the rules in a way that allows game streaming, but in a way nobody wants to use.

    Every video streaming game has to be Apple approved? Every time the game changes it has to be Apple approved? This compares to a situation where every Netflix movie has to be approved by Apple. And game streaming already exists - just open a Citrix client or a Windows remote app and start playing Solitaire. Or watch an interactive Netflix movie.

    We will see more changes within the next year. Always in a way that doesn‘t really change anything, just minimal changes with additional rules. Simply because Apple wants to avoid hard regulations. Now Apple has an answer to the question „why are you blocking game streaming services?“ - „we NEVER did that, we only have certain rules about how a game streaming service should be represented in our AppStore“
    I read your post carefully. I considered your points carefully. But your post leaves lots of open questions. Are you saying Apple has no right to curate software? And are you saying that I, as a customer, have no right to expect any company to curate software for me? You mention Netflix, so are you saying Netflix has no right to decide which movies get posted on Netflix? Does Walmart have no right to decide which products can be sold in its own stores? Does Apple have to allow xxx-rated apps and movies on its stores and video services? Does Apple have no right to control the user experience in its own operating system? I want the big picture from you, not just some single issue advocacy. I will read it if you post explanations. And I won't mock you. I'm not a person with anger issues.
    Samsonikk
  • Reply 38 of 52
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,251member
    danvm said:
    KTR said:
    "This remains a bad experience for customers..."  Ok Microsoft, I see what you did there.  You're speaking Apple-ese.  Smart. 

    As much as I am a fan of Apple's ecosystem and 'walled garden', I struggle to see the risk of streaming game platforms.  I'm not much of a gamer, but I would rather have one app that can stream tons of games, than have to download each game one by one and delete them to make room for more.  Am I getting the two models right?

    I heard xCloud get compared to Netflix like this: They are both zero footprint downward streams with upward controls.  The play/pause/skip function is just replaced by left/right/jump/shoot etc.  I honestly think Apple isn't allowing it simply because they can't figure out a way to monetize it. 
    I kinda see Apple's point.  If you have one app that streams multiple games, what if one of those games contains malicious code.  Like Tim Cook one said to Trump camp.  It only takes one bad actor to compromise the ecosystem/ios.  So, I can see it from apples point of view.  They want to maintain the quality of the system.  And keeping it safe.
    From what I know (since Apple won't allow xCloud in my iPhone), the only thing you need to download is the xCloud App.  The games are streamed to the device, and there is no need to download code.  If that's the case, there is no need to worry about malicious code, as you said.  
    You weren't asking me, but I want to ask you for clarification. How do you know that the xCloud app complies with all 500 requirements in Apple's license? Are you personally promising that Microsoft will not violate any of those terms? For example, like payment systems. Have you read the requirements? I spent ten minutes reading all of them. I predict that given the chance Microsoft would violate about half of them in their xCloud app. Are you trying to give Microsoft an exemption to all 500 requirements? 
    I have no issues with people asking or giving opinions from my comments, so feel free to post.  On your questions, I'm sure that xCloud / Stadia don't comply with Apple rules, considering is not available for us, Apple customers.  And I'm not trying to give MS an exemption.  But when you see the whole picture, Apple are blocking innovation in the gaming market for us, Apple customers.  MS and Google are investing a lot in their cloud platforms to make cloud gaming a good experience.  It is perfect?  Not at all, but neither was Netflix in the beginning.  Now Apple said that allows game streaming services, but their rules break the xCloud experience (at least from the MS POV).  And considering and comparing Apple and MS gaming experiences, maybe they are right.  
    Are you saying that Apple has no right to provide a curated software experience for its users? Are you trying to take away my freedom to choose a curated service? Please say yes or no.
    Yes, Apple has the right to provide a curated software experience. Now I ask you, what kind of curated experience you are talking about?  If it's for content, xCloud (I'm not sure for Stadia) have their games rated by PEGI and ESRB, and as today, I'm not seeing games with AO rating.  Is suppose that's good enough considering Apple don't check TV shows and movies in Netflix, Hulu, HBO Now or Amazon Prime.  Now I ask you, do you feel that your freedom was took away because Apple is not checking every movie or TV show from the apps I mentioned?

    If you are talking about curated software experience for the app / code review, from what I have read, there are no games downloaded to the device.  They are running in the XBox consoles in MS datacenters, and streamed to the device.  I think that's very similar that what the Citrix and MS Remote Desktop apps do.  
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 39 of 52
    danvm said:
    danvm said:
    KTR said:
    "This remains a bad experience for customers..."  Ok Microsoft, I see what you did there.  You're speaking Apple-ese.  Smart. 

    As much as I am a fan of Apple's ecosystem and 'walled garden', I struggle to see the risk of streaming game platforms.  I'm not much of a gamer, but I would rather have one app that can stream tons of games, than have to download each game one by one and delete them to make room for more.  Am I getting the two models right?

    I heard xCloud get compared to Netflix like this: They are both zero footprint downward streams with upward controls.  The play/pause/skip function is just replaced by left/right/jump/shoot etc.  I honestly think Apple isn't allowing it simply because they can't figure out a way to monetize it. 
    I kinda see Apple's point.  If you have one app that streams multiple games, what if one of those games contains malicious code.  Like Tim Cook one said to Trump camp.  It only takes one bad actor to compromise the ecosystem/ios.  So, I can see it from apples point of view.  They want to maintain the quality of the system.  And keeping it safe.
    From what I know (since Apple won't allow xCloud in my iPhone), the only thing you need to download is the xCloud App.  The games are streamed to the device, and there is no need to download code.  If that's the case, there is no need to worry about malicious code, as you said.  
    You weren't asking me, but I want to ask you for clarification. How do you know that the xCloud app complies with all 500 requirements in Apple's license? Are you personally promising that Microsoft will not violate any of those terms? For example, like payment systems. Have you read the requirements? I spent ten minutes reading all of them. I predict that given the chance Microsoft would violate about half of them in their xCloud app. Are you trying to give Microsoft an exemption to all 500 requirements? 
    I have no issues with people asking or giving opinions from my comments, so feel free to post.  On your questions, I'm sure that xCloud / Stadia don't comply with Apple rules, considering is not available for us, Apple customers.  And I'm not trying to give MS an exemption.  But when you see the whole picture, Apple are blocking innovation in the gaming market for us, Apple customers.  MS and Google are investing a lot in their cloud platforms to make cloud gaming a good experience.  It is perfect?  Not at all, but neither was Netflix in the beginning.  Now Apple said that allows game streaming services, but their rules break the xCloud experience (at least from the MS POV).  And considering and comparing Apple and MS gaming experiences, maybe they are right.  
    Are you saying that Apple has no right to provide a curated software experience for its users? Are you trying to take away my freedom to choose a curated service? Please say yes or no.
    Yes, Apple has the right to provide a curated software experience. Now I ask you, what kind of curated experience you are talking about?  If it's for content, xCloud (I'm not sure for Stadia) have their games rated by PEGI and ESRB, and as today, I'm not seeing games with AO rating.  Is suppose that's good enough considering Apple don't check TV shows and movies in Netflix, Hulu, HBO Now or Amazon Prime.  Now I ask you, do you feel that your freedom was took away because Apple is not checking every movie or TV show from the apps I mentioned?

    If you are talking about curated software experience for the app / code review, from what I have read, there are no games downloaded to the device.  They are running in the XBox consoles in MS datacenters, and streamed to the device.  I think that's very similar that what the Citrix and MS Remote Desktop apps do.  
    Well, we are getting a lot closer to an agreement. One of your concerns was "Apple is blocking innovation." But I don't think that's illegal and I don't think you are saying that should be illegal. So we may be close to agreeing. Apple is perfectly within its legal right to stifle innovation. In this case that stifling is the very thing that's making me attracted to Apple's iOS.

    You also express concerns that Apple is "breaking the xCloud experience." I agree with you that's exactly what they are doing. But again, this can't possibly be illegal. Apple has every legal right to object to block anyone's app for any reason. And in this case the reasons involve more than just whether an app is "downloaded" or not. Have you read the 500 requirements? Are you saying that Microsoft and the games on its service will never violate the in app purchase requirements, for example? It's unclear whether MS will adhere to all the rules, and nobody on the anti-Apple side is answering simple questions like this.

    You then ask me, "do you feel that your freedom was took away because Apple is not checking every movie or TV show from the apps I mentioned?" The answer is I actually WANT Apple to "take away my freedom" and make my experience easy to use, simple, protected from threats, and made consistent with the environment that Apple has made easy for me to learn and use. And you want to take away my freedom to purchase products that have these values. I don't understand why people want to take away my freedom and then at the same time arguing it's for THEIR freedom. You already have your freedom - you have XBOX, Android, and a half dozen other gaming systems and you still want to take away the one system that does what I want. Why does every vendor have to be forced to do the things that you want? Why?
  • Reply 40 of 52
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,251member
    danvm said:
    danvm said:
    KTR said:
    "This remains a bad experience for customers..."  Ok Microsoft, I see what you did there.  You're speaking Apple-ese.  Smart. 

    As much as I am a fan of Apple's ecosystem and 'walled garden', I struggle to see the risk of streaming game platforms.  I'm not much of a gamer, but I would rather have one app that can stream tons of games, than have to download each game one by one and delete them to make room for more.  Am I getting the two models right?

    I heard xCloud get compared to Netflix like this: They are both zero footprint downward streams with upward controls.  The play/pause/skip function is just replaced by left/right/jump/shoot etc.  I honestly think Apple isn't allowing it simply because they can't figure out a way to monetize it. 
    I kinda see Apple's point.  If you have one app that streams multiple games, what if one of those games contains malicious code.  Like Tim Cook one said to Trump camp.  It only takes one bad actor to compromise the ecosystem/ios.  So, I can see it from apples point of view.  They want to maintain the quality of the system.  And keeping it safe.
    From what I know (since Apple won't allow xCloud in my iPhone), the only thing you need to download is the xCloud App.  The games are streamed to the device, and there is no need to download code.  If that's the case, there is no need to worry about malicious code, as you said.  
    You weren't asking me, but I want to ask you for clarification. How do you know that the xCloud app complies with all 500 requirements in Apple's license? Are you personally promising that Microsoft will not violate any of those terms? For example, like payment systems. Have you read the requirements? I spent ten minutes reading all of them. I predict that given the chance Microsoft would violate about half of them in their xCloud app. Are you trying to give Microsoft an exemption to all 500 requirements? 
    I have no issues with people asking or giving opinions from my comments, so feel free to post.  On your questions, I'm sure that xCloud / Stadia don't comply with Apple rules, considering is not available for us, Apple customers.  And I'm not trying to give MS an exemption.  But when you see the whole picture, Apple are blocking innovation in the gaming market for us, Apple customers.  MS and Google are investing a lot in their cloud platforms to make cloud gaming a good experience.  It is perfect?  Not at all, but neither was Netflix in the beginning.  Now Apple said that allows game streaming services, but their rules break the xCloud experience (at least from the MS POV).  And considering and comparing Apple and MS gaming experiences, maybe they are right.  
    Are you saying that Apple has no right to provide a curated software experience for its users? Are you trying to take away my freedom to choose a curated service? Please say yes or no.
    Yes, Apple has the right to provide a curated software experience. Now I ask you, what kind of curated experience you are talking about?  If it's for content, xCloud (I'm not sure for Stadia) have their games rated by PEGI and ESRB, and as today, I'm not seeing games with AO rating.  Is suppose that's good enough considering Apple don't check TV shows and movies in Netflix, Hulu, HBO Now or Amazon Prime.  Now I ask you, do you feel that your freedom was took away because Apple is not checking every movie or TV show from the apps I mentioned?

    If you are talking about curated software experience for the app / code review, from what I have read, there are no games downloaded to the device.  They are running in the XBox consoles in MS datacenters, and streamed to the device.  I think that's very similar that what the Citrix and MS Remote Desktop apps do.  
    Well, we are getting a lot closer to an agreement. One of your concerns was "Apple is blocking innovation." But I don't think that's illegal and I don't think you are saying that should be illegal. So we may be close to agreeing. Apple is perfectly within its legal right to stifle innovation. In this case that stifling is the very thing that's making me attracted to Apple's iOS.
    I have not idea why you bring the legal thing into this conversation, considering MS haven't break any Apple or legal rules.  This is a completely different matter from Epic and Fortnite.   
    You also express concerns that Apple is "breaking the xCloud experience." I agree with you that's exactly what they are doing. But again, this can't possibly be illegal. Apple has every legal right to object to block anyone's app for any reason. And in this case the reasons involve more than just whether an app is "downloaded" or not. Have you read the 500 requirements? Are you saying that Microsoft and the games on its service will never violate the in app purchase requirements, for example? It's unclear whether MS will adhere to all the rules, and nobody on the anti-Apple side is answering simple questions like this.
    Like I posted before, the legal points you mention are not relevant, since MS haven't break any rule or law, removed xCloud from TestFlight, and didn't force any issues as Epic did. 

    Now, answering your question if MS ( or Google) will adhere to all rules, my answer as an Apple customer (since I'm not against, neither pro Apple), is that I don't know.  If Apple won't allow anyone break the iOS experience, why would MS allow Apple break their xCloud gaming experience?  And considering gaming experience, I trust MS far more than Apple.  So what Apple is doing with the new rules, may give us, iOS customers a worst experience than what MS and Google had planned.  I suppose that rules weren't suppose to do that, but here we are.
    You then ask me, "do you feel that your freedom was took away because Apple is not checking every movie or TV show from the apps I mentioned?" The answer is I actually WANT Apple to "take away my freedom" and make my experience easy to use, simple, protected from threats, and made consistent with the environment that Apple has made easy for me to learn and use. And you want to take away my freedom to purchase products that have these values.
    Did you have proof that xCloud or Stadia takes away your freedom or breaks any of the things you mentioned from the iOS / iPadOS experience?  From what I know Apple didn't reject xCloud for any of the reasons you mentioned.  
    I don't understand why people want to take away my freedom and then at the same time arguing it's for THEIR freedom. You already have your freedom - you have XBOX, Android, and a half dozen other gaming systems and you still want to take away the one system that does what I want. Why does every vendor have to be forced to do the things that you want? Why?
    And I don't understand why you feel that your freedom will go away if xCloud were in Apple mobile devices.  Yes, I have to option to move to Android or Xbox consoles.  But you have the option to not download xCloud, and you'll still have the same experience as you had before, since xCloud didn't break the iOS experience (at least when it as in TestFlight).  There are cases that we see good services, as xCloud and Stadia, that could improve the iOS / iPadOS experience you already enjoy.  
    muthuk_vanalingam
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