EU may require Apple to give competitors access to Apple Pay tech

2»

Comments

  • Reply 21 of 38
    crowleycrowley Posts: 10,453member
    avon b7 said:
    Ha ha ha. The headline might as well be “EU lives in LaLaLand.”

    Contrary to popular perception, cash and cash-like cards (e.g., debit cards) still rule in many countries. Rollout of contactless payment forms including its advanced forms like ApplePay, especially POS systems, are a work in progress. Germany, shockingly, is still a heavily cash-based economy. 

    The EU will probably stay stuck there for a while. 
    Europe is way more advanced in electronic payments than the US. EMV had what, a ten year advantage, over the the US in that field?

    Contactless payments were (and probably still are) far more widespread here than in the US and part of this EU investigation isn't so much about Apple Pay per se, than competition. That is, equal and fair use of NFC hardware.

    What consumers 'prefer' to use is a completely different story and simply a user preference. 

    My bank (BBVA) supposedly has the best banking App worldwide and I'm hard pressed to imagine what more I could need in terms of control of things like cards and transfers.

    For example, I've been able to 'suspend' my cards at will for as long as I remember. A very convenient feature. AI has long been used to evaluate my payment habits so if a payment is made for something that does not match a pattern of my habitual actions, it gets verified with me. My debit cards can also be used as credit cards. If something like an online purchase requires a code sent via sms, the App can even 'read' the sms to extract and use the code.

    The fact that you say you are "hard pressed to imagine what more I could need..." says it for me: unless you've used ApplePay on your iPhone or Watch, you will never understand the convenience and security. I am not saying you should use it, but rather that you have no idea unless you have.
    That's something completely different though.  Apple Pay is a means for the physical transaction, while banks and banking apps provide the back office transaction service, post-transaction analysis, security and card management features.  You can use both the banking app and Apple Pay together, and I rather doubt that the OP hasn't used Apple Pay.
  • Reply 22 of 38
    avon b7 said:
    You criticised the EU without a solid base. You attacked Germany and claimed Contactless was work in progress.

    Oh, poor EU, poor Germany. My heart bleeds. Give me a break.

    Their "head start" has largely stalled. At least in the countries to which I regularly traveled (until COVD): UK, France, Germany, Italy. I think that N Europe may be ahead of the rest of the EU (and even perhaps the US). For that matter, China is far far ahead of everyone.
    edited September 2020 watto_cobra
  • Reply 23 of 38
    Apple has a few approaches:
    1. Argue that it is not obligated to install other payment systems into iOS.
    2. Argue (if it's true, and I'm not 100% sure it is) that the would reduce the security of its Secure Element, and explain why
    3. Argue that if it did this, there would be an excessively long list of Payment options (WalMart Pay, Facebook Pay, Bank of America Pay, etc.) baked into iOS which would ruin the user experience
    4. Ask the EU if selling an iPhone with Android, which would allow access to the NFC chip, would constitute an "alternate" payment system, since the user could choose to install this OS
    5. Ask the EU if it's going to require selling all its services on any or all other platforms (Fitness+, Apple Music, etc.)
    6. Ask the EU if it would allow Apple Pay to be the default or if the EU would force Apple to let users select which payment system is the default
    7. Simply stop selling iOS devices in the EU, preferably in a surprise move with no stated return-to-market date. (Presumably the EU would allow existing iPhones in Europe to continue functioning, but if not, so much the better!)
    The first three options are just arguments. The second three options are questions that would force the EU to explain itself, although if the answer to #4 is yes, Apple could potentially do that with no impact on sales (perhaps a positive impact!) The last option is the nuclear option, and I love it. The point to option #7 is to get people on Apple's side. So Apple should remove iOS from their EU stores, for at least one year, until people realize that they need to fight their own governments. Some idiots would argue that Apple is "blackmailing Europe by not selling products there", but how can anyone force anyone to sell their products anywhere? Nobody can answer that question even remotely cogently. Each Apple Store in Europe should be shuttered, (unless Apple wants to continue selling Macs in Europe in stores) but at the front of each store there should be a display which says "The EU has banned the sale of iOS devices in Europe."
    The EU has learned nothing from its string of defeats (incl. the recent tax case against Apple).

    No matter, they'll plow ahead with their blunt-instrument approach to regulation. It's no wonder that there's so little fin-tech innovation in the EU.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 24 of 38
    crowleycrowley Posts: 10,453member
    Apple has a few approaches:
    1. Argue that it is not obligated to install other payment systems into iOS.
    2. Argue (if it's true, and I'm not 100% sure it is) that the would reduce the security of its Secure Element, and explain why
    3. Argue that if it did this, there would be an excessively long list of Payment options (WalMart Pay, Facebook Pay, Bank of America Pay, etc.) baked into iOS which would ruin the user experience
    4. Ask the EU if selling an iPhone with Android, which would allow access to the NFC chip, would constitute an "alternate" payment system, since the user could choose to install this OS
    5. Ask the EU if it's going to require selling all its services on any or all other platforms (Fitness+, Apple Music, etc.)
    6. Ask the EU if it would allow Apple Pay to be the default or if the EU would force Apple to let users select which payment system is the default
    7. Simply stop selling iOS devices in the EU, preferably in a surprise move with no stated return-to-market date. (Presumably the EU would allow existing iPhones in Europe to continue functioning, but if not, so much the better!)
    The first three options are just arguments. The second three options are questions that would force the EU to explain itself, although if the answer to #4 is yes, Apple could potentially do that with no impact on sales (perhaps a positive impact!) The last option is the nuclear option, and I love it. The point to option #7 is to get people on Apple's side. So Apple should remove iOS from their EU stores, for at least one year, until people realize that they need to fight their own governments. Some idiots would argue that Apple is "blackmailing Europe by not selling products there", but how can anyone force anyone to sell their products anywhere? Nobody can answer that question even remotely cogently. Each Apple Store in Europe should be shuttered, (unless Apple wants to continue selling Macs in Europe in stores) but at the front of each store there should be a display which says "The EU has banned the sale of iOS devices in Europe."
    The EU has learned nothing from its string of defeats (incl. the recent tax case against Apple).

    No matter, they'll plow ahead with their blunt-instrument approach to regulation. It's no wonder that there's so little fin-tech innovation in the EU.
    That's more to do with the lack of angel investor culture that there is in the US.  And given some of the horror shows that has produced, I'd argue it's not an altogether bad thing.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 25 of 38
    crowley said:
    avon b7 said:
    Ha ha ha. The headline might as well be “EU lives in LaLaLand.”

    Contrary to popular perception, cash and cash-like cards (e.g., debit cards) still rule in many countries. Rollout of contactless payment forms including its advanced forms like ApplePay, especially POS systems, are a work in progress. Germany, shockingly, is still a heavily cash-based economy. 

    The EU will probably stay stuck there for a while. 
    Europe is way more advanced in electronic payments than the US. EMV had what, a ten year advantage, over the the US in that field?

    Contactless payments were (and probably still are) far more widespread here than in the US and part of this EU investigation isn't so much about Apple Pay per se, than competition. That is, equal and fair use of NFC hardware.

    What consumers 'prefer' to use is a completely different story and simply a user preference. 

    My bank (BBVA) supposedly has the best banking App worldwide and I'm hard pressed to imagine what more I could need in terms of control of things like cards and transfers.

    For example, I've been able to 'suspend' my cards at will for as long as I remember. A very convenient feature. AI has long been used to evaluate my payment habits so if a payment is made for something that does not match a pattern of my habitual actions, it gets verified with me. My debit cards can also be used as credit cards. If something like an online purchase requires a code sent via sms, the App can even 'read' the sms to extract and use the code.

    The fact that you say you are "hard pressed to imagine what more I could need..." says it for me: unless you've used ApplePay on your iPhone or Watch, you will never understand the convenience and security. I am not saying you should use it, but rather that you have no idea unless you have.
    That's something completely different though.  Apple Pay is a means for the physical transaction, while banks and banking apps provide the back office transaction service, post-transaction analysis, security and card management features.  You can use both the banking app and Apple Pay together, and I rather doubt that the OP hasn't used Apple Pay.
    It appears he hasn't, at least not much. In any event it's not like I use my bank for the back-office features it offers me. It's only the consumer-facing parts of their business -- personal banking, mortgage financing, wire transfers, peer-to-peer money transfer, bill payment, credit cards etc -- that really matter to me. A great deal of the transaction processing work traditionally done by big banks is slowly being competed away by MasterCard, Visa, and a slew of fin-tech companies. (You may have read about how Germany's attempt at a lot of that, in the form of Wirecard, ended up up a massive, fraudulent failure).

    Even there, I have mostly switched to seamless globally digital services offered by firms like Xoom and Schwab.
    edited September 2020 watto_cobra
  • Reply 26 of 38
    crowley said:
    Apple has a few approaches:
    1. Argue that it is not obligated to install other payment systems into iOS.
    2. Argue (if it's true, and I'm not 100% sure it is) that the would reduce the security of its Secure Element, and explain why
    3. Argue that if it did this, there would be an excessively long list of Payment options (WalMart Pay, Facebook Pay, Bank of America Pay, etc.) baked into iOS which would ruin the user experience
    4. Ask the EU if selling an iPhone with Android, which would allow access to the NFC chip, would constitute an "alternate" payment system, since the user could choose to install this OS
    5. Ask the EU if it's going to require selling all its services on any or all other platforms (Fitness+, Apple Music, etc.)
    6. Ask the EU if it would allow Apple Pay to be the default or if the EU would force Apple to let users select which payment system is the default
    7. Simply stop selling iOS devices in the EU, preferably in a surprise move with no stated return-to-market date. (Presumably the EU would allow existing iPhones in Europe to continue functioning, but if not, so much the better!)
    The first three options are just arguments. The second three options are questions that would force the EU to explain itself, although if the answer to #4 is yes, Apple could potentially do that with no impact on sales (perhaps a positive impact!) The last option is the nuclear option, and I love it. The point to option #7 is to get people on Apple's side. So Apple should remove iOS from their EU stores, for at least one year, until people realize that they need to fight their own governments. Some idiots would argue that Apple is "blackmailing Europe by not selling products there", but how can anyone force anyone to sell their products anywhere? Nobody can answer that question even remotely cogently. Each Apple Store in Europe should be shuttered, (unless Apple wants to continue selling Macs in Europe in stores) but at the front of each store there should be a display which says "The EU has banned the sale of iOS devices in Europe."
    The EU has learned nothing from its string of defeats (incl. the recent tax case against Apple).

    No matter, they'll plow ahead with their blunt-instrument approach to regulation. It's no wonder that there's so little fin-tech innovation in the EU.
    That's more to do with the lack of angel investor culture that there is in the US.  And given some of the horror shows that has produced, I'd argue it's not an altogether bad thing.
    Yeah, it certainly is a culture of start-up financing (esp. venture capital) and high tolerance for failure in the US. No other country comes close in terms of that ecosystem.

    To what horror shows do you refer?
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 27 of 38
    No matter, they'll plow ahead with their blunt-instrument approach to regulation. 
    I respect you, pal, but I don't consider it a blunt instrument approach. I consider it an attempt to micromanage features in operating systems. This isn't a hammer, this is a scalpel. And I'm not sure if access to the NFC chip impacts the design of the Secure Element, but if so then it's a scalpel performing heart surgery. And if the EU wins this fight, they will continue to micromanage features in the future, and that's what I fear most. (For example, maybe they will want Apple's competitors to have access to the contents of the Secure Element.) If I were Apple, I'd just pull my product out of their jurisdiction rather than let them start micromanaging iOS or the hardware.
    edited September 2020 watto_cobra
  • Reply 28 of 38
    crowleycrowley Posts: 10,453member
    crowley said:
    Apple has a few approaches:
    1. Argue that it is not obligated to install other payment systems into iOS.
    2. Argue (if it's true, and I'm not 100% sure it is) that the would reduce the security of its Secure Element, and explain why
    3. Argue that if it did this, there would be an excessively long list of Payment options (WalMart Pay, Facebook Pay, Bank of America Pay, etc.) baked into iOS which would ruin the user experience
    4. Ask the EU if selling an iPhone with Android, which would allow access to the NFC chip, would constitute an "alternate" payment system, since the user could choose to install this OS
    5. Ask the EU if it's going to require selling all its services on any or all other platforms (Fitness+, Apple Music, etc.)
    6. Ask the EU if it would allow Apple Pay to be the default or if the EU would force Apple to let users select which payment system is the default
    7. Simply stop selling iOS devices in the EU, preferably in a surprise move with no stated return-to-market date. (Presumably the EU would allow existing iPhones in Europe to continue functioning, but if not, so much the better!)
    The first three options are just arguments. The second three options are questions that would force the EU to explain itself, although if the answer to #4 is yes, Apple could potentially do that with no impact on sales (perhaps a positive impact!) The last option is the nuclear option, and I love it. The point to option #7 is to get people on Apple's side. So Apple should remove iOS from their EU stores, for at least one year, until people realize that they need to fight their own governments. Some idiots would argue that Apple is "blackmailing Europe by not selling products there", but how can anyone force anyone to sell their products anywhere? Nobody can answer that question even remotely cogently. Each Apple Store in Europe should be shuttered, (unless Apple wants to continue selling Macs in Europe in stores) but at the front of each store there should be a display which says "The EU has banned the sale of iOS devices in Europe."
    The EU has learned nothing from its string of defeats (incl. the recent tax case against Apple).

    No matter, they'll plow ahead with their blunt-instrument approach to regulation. It's no wonder that there's so little fin-tech innovation in the EU.
    That's more to do with the lack of angel investor culture that there is in the US.  And given some of the horror shows that has produced, I'd argue it's not an altogether bad thing.
    Yeah, it certainly is a culture of start-up financing (esp. venture capital) and high tolerance for failure in the US. No other country comes close in terms of that ecosystem.

    To what horror shows do you refer?
    Theranos? Any number of disruptive stand ups that have bled money before collapsing leaving destruction in their wake?
  • Reply 29 of 38
    crowleycrowley Posts: 10,453member
    crowley said:
    avon b7 said:
    Ha ha ha. The headline might as well be “EU lives in LaLaLand.”

    Contrary to popular perception, cash and cash-like cards (e.g., debit cards) still rule in many countries. Rollout of contactless payment forms including its advanced forms like ApplePay, especially POS systems, are a work in progress. Germany, shockingly, is still a heavily cash-based economy. 

    The EU will probably stay stuck there for a while. 
    Europe is way more advanced in electronic payments than the US. EMV had what, a ten year advantage, over the the US in that field?

    Contactless payments were (and probably still are) far more widespread here than in the US and part of this EU investigation isn't so much about Apple Pay per se, than competition. That is, equal and fair use of NFC hardware.

    What consumers 'prefer' to use is a completely different story and simply a user preference. 

    My bank (BBVA) supposedly has the best banking App worldwide and I'm hard pressed to imagine what more I could need in terms of control of things like cards and transfers.

    For example, I've been able to 'suspend' my cards at will for as long as I remember. A very convenient feature. AI has long been used to evaluate my payment habits so if a payment is made for something that does not match a pattern of my habitual actions, it gets verified with me. My debit cards can also be used as credit cards. If something like an online purchase requires a code sent via sms, the App can even 'read' the sms to extract and use the code.

    The fact that you say you are "hard pressed to imagine what more I could need..." says it for me: unless you've used ApplePay on your iPhone or Watch, you will never understand the convenience and security. I am not saying you should use it, but rather that you have no idea unless you have.
    That's something completely different though.  Apple Pay is a means for the physical transaction, while banks and banking apps provide the back office transaction service, post-transaction analysis, security and card management features.  You can use both the banking app and Apple Pay together, and I rather doubt that the OP hasn't used Apple Pay.
    It appears he hasn't, at least not much. In any event it's not like I use my bank for the back-office features it offers me. It's only the consumer-facing parts of their business -- personal banking, mortgage financing, wire transfers, peer-to-peer money transfer, bill payment, credit cards etc -- that really matter to me. A great deal of the transaction processing work traditionally done by big banks is slowly being competed away by MasterCard, Visa, and a slew of fin-tech companies. (You may have read about how Germany's attempt at a lot of that, in the form of Wirecard, ended up up a massive, fraudulent failure).

    Even there, I have mostly switched to seamless globally digital services offered by firms like Xoom and Schwab.
    I don’t see any evidence either way that he’s used Apple Pay, he doesn’t mention it at all.

    Regarding your personal use, I don’t see how that’s all that relevant.  Congratulations on not using a bank to process transactions, I guess?
  • Reply 30 of 38
    Why does EU think that they should be able to snatch the technology that Apple has made popular? This behavior makes me think of the nationalization of oil refineries in Venezuela. Not a good result for the population. The original responses to the Exposure Notification API indicate how well governments and technology mix.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 31 of 38
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,667member
    avon b7 said:
    You criticised the EU without a solid base. You attacked Germany and claimed Contactless was work in progress.

    Oh, poor EU, poor Germany. My heart bleeds. Give me a break.

    Their "head start" has largely stalled. At least in the countries to which I regularly traveled (until COVD): UK, France, Germany, Italy. I think that N Europe may be ahead of the rest of the EU (and even perhaps the US). For that matter, China is far far ahead of everyone.
    In March 2020 the German Credit Agency stated that over 50% of payments in Germany were contactless.

    Nothing has stalled in the EU. Contactless is continuing its rollout. Where I am I haven't used cash since March. It is contactless for literally everything. A loaf of bread, coffee, restaurants, shops, supermarkets. Everything. As new cards are issued and mobile phones with NFC become more commonplace, contactless payments increase. In fact, independently of user habits or preferences, contactless is ubiquitous here at typical commercial establishments and even new vending style machines include it.

    COVID-19 has had no impact on the roll out of the technology except for stimulating users to actually make use of it. 

    And as an aside, my bank phased out signature authentication years ago, requiring users to use a PIN. Spain in general has been at the forefront of new payment technologies in many ways, not least because communications technologies are often welcomed with open arms.

    Personally I have never used Apple Pay (not that that is relevant here). The vast majority of my transactions are card based (contactless) because I often do not carry my phone when shopping.


  • Reply 32 of 38
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    You criticised the EU without a solid base. You attacked Germany and claimed Contactless was work in progress.

    Oh, poor EU, poor Germany. My heart bleeds. Give me a break.

    Their "head start" has largely stalled. At least in the countries to which I regularly traveled (until COVD): UK, France, Germany, Italy. I think that N Europe may be ahead of the rest of the EU (and even perhaps the US). For that matter, China is far far ahead of everyone.
    In March 2020 the German Credit Agency stated that over 50% of payments in Germany were contactless.

    Nothing has stalled in the EU. Contactless is continuing its rollout. Where I am I haven't used cash since March. It is contactless for literally everything. A loaf of bread, coffee, restaurants, shops, supermarkets. Everything. As new cards are issued and mobile phones with NFC become more commonplace, contactless payments increase. In fact, independently of user habits or preferences, contactless is ubiquitous here at typical commercial establishments and even new vending style machines include it.

    COVID-19 has had no impact on the roll out of the technology except for stimulating users to actually make use of it. 

    And as an aside, my bank phased out signature authentication years ago, requiring users to use a PIN. Spain in general has been at the forefront of new payment technologies in many ways, not least because communications technologies are often welcomed with open arms.

    Personally I have never used Apple Pay (not that that is relevant here). The vast majority of my transactions are card based (contactless) because I often do not carry my phone when shopping.


    Germany was at the bottom of the pile just a couple of years ago:



    However, COVID may have changed behaviors somewhat, and brought it closer to the EU average (it'll be interesting to see what happens post-COVID). Also, as the article notes, cash payments still dominate retail and restaurant sales in Germany: https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20200520-will-coronavirus-change-germans-love-of-cash
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 33 of 38
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,667member
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    You criticised the EU without a solid base. You attacked Germany and claimed Contactless was work in progress.

    Oh, poor EU, poor Germany. My heart bleeds. Give me a break.

    Their "head start" has largely stalled. At least in the countries to which I regularly traveled (until COVD): UK, France, Germany, Italy. I think that N Europe may be ahead of the rest of the EU (and even perhaps the US). For that matter, China is far far ahead of everyone.
    In March 2020 the German Credit Agency stated that over 50% of payments in Germany were contactless.

    Nothing has stalled in the EU. Contactless is continuing its rollout. Where I am I haven't used cash since March. It is contactless for literally everything. A loaf of bread, coffee, restaurants, shops, supermarkets. Everything. As new cards are issued and mobile phones with NFC become more commonplace, contactless payments increase. In fact, independently of user habits or preferences, contactless is ubiquitous here at typical commercial establishments and even new vending style machines include it.

    COVID-19 has had no impact on the roll out of the technology except for stimulating users to actually make use of it. 

    And as an aside, my bank phased out signature authentication years ago, requiring users to use a PIN. Spain in general has been at the forefront of new payment technologies in many ways, not least because communications technologies are often welcomed with open arms.

    Personally I have never used Apple Pay (not that that is relevant here). The vast majority of my transactions are card based (contactless) because I often do not carry my phone when shopping.


    Germany was at the bottom of the pile just a couple of years ago:



    However, COVID may have changed behaviors somewhat, and brought it closer to the EU average (it'll be interesting to see what happens post-COVID). Also, as the article notes, cash payments still dominate retail and restaurant sales in Germany: https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20200520-will-coronavirus-change-germans-love-of-cash
    It can be difficult to change user habits but the technology is well on its way to 100% deployment across most major banks in the EU. Contactless is relatively new still if compared against EMV standard cards. 

    And small merchants are now seeing more options to use their own phones as processing terminals. 
  • Reply 34 of 38
    crowleycrowley Posts: 10,453member
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    You criticised the EU without a solid base. You attacked Germany and claimed Contactless was work in progress.

    Oh, poor EU, poor Germany. My heart bleeds. Give me a break.

    Their "head start" has largely stalled. At least in the countries to which I regularly traveled (until COVD): UK, France, Germany, Italy. I think that N Europe may be ahead of the rest of the EU (and even perhaps the US). For that matter, China is far far ahead of everyone.
    In March 2020 the German Credit Agency stated that over 50% of payments in Germany were contactless.

    Nothing has stalled in the EU. Contactless is continuing its rollout. Where I am I haven't used cash since March. It is contactless for literally everything. A loaf of bread, coffee, restaurants, shops, supermarkets. Everything. As new cards are issued and mobile phones with NFC become more commonplace, contactless payments increase. In fact, independently of user habits or preferences, contactless is ubiquitous here at typical commercial establishments and even new vending style machines include it.

    COVID-19 has had no impact on the roll out of the technology except for stimulating users to actually make use of it. 

    And as an aside, my bank phased out signature authentication years ago, requiring users to use a PIN. Spain in general has been at the forefront of new payment technologies in many ways, not least because communications technologies are often welcomed with open arms.

    Personally I have never used Apple Pay (not that that is relevant here). The vast majority of my transactions are card based (contactless) because I often do not carry my phone when shopping.


    Germany was at the bottom of the pile just a couple of years ago:



    However, COVID may have changed behaviors somewhat, and brought it closer to the EU average (it'll be interesting to see what happens post-COVID). Also, as the article notes, cash payments still dominate retail and restaurant sales in Germany: https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20200520-will-coronavirus-change-germans-love-of-cash
    Usage is not the same as deployment.  If Germans like to use cash, what's the problem?
  • Reply 35 of 38
    crowley said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    You criticised the EU without a solid base. You attacked Germany and claimed Contactless was work in progress.

    Oh, poor EU, poor Germany. My heart bleeds. Give me a break.

    Their "head start" has largely stalled. At least in the countries to which I regularly traveled (until COVD): UK, France, Germany, Italy. I think that N Europe may be ahead of the rest of the EU (and even perhaps the US). For that matter, China is far far ahead of everyone.
    In March 2020 the German Credit Agency stated that over 50% of payments in Germany were contactless.

    Nothing has stalled in the EU. Contactless is continuing its rollout. Where I am I haven't used cash since March. It is contactless for literally everything. A loaf of bread, coffee, restaurants, shops, supermarkets. Everything. As new cards are issued and mobile phones with NFC become more commonplace, contactless payments increase. In fact, independently of user habits or preferences, contactless is ubiquitous here at typical commercial establishments and even new vending style machines include it.

    COVID-19 has had no impact on the roll out of the technology except for stimulating users to actually make use of it. 

    And as an aside, my bank phased out signature authentication years ago, requiring users to use a PIN. Spain in general has been at the forefront of new payment technologies in many ways, not least because communications technologies are often welcomed with open arms.

    Personally I have never used Apple Pay (not that that is relevant here). The vast majority of my transactions are card based (contactless) because I often do not carry my phone when shopping.


    Germany was at the bottom of the pile just a couple of years ago:



    However, COVID may have changed behaviors somewhat, and brought it closer to the EU average (it'll be interesting to see what happens post-COVID). Also, as the article notes, cash payments still dominate retail and restaurant sales in Germany: https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20200520-will-coronavirus-change-germans-love-of-cash
    Usage is not the same as deployment.  If Germans like to use cash, what's the problem?
    I am not going to bother to explain, except to say, get with context, man.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 36 of 38

    ...
    In October, the EU began asking payment companies for feedback on Apple Pay as part of an antitrust investigation. Competitors, such as banks and alternative payment methods, have argued that Apple Pay makes alternative payment services less attractive.

    ...
    What else would you expect if you ask competitors what they think?

    I don't recall ever seeing that they ask consumers what they think.
    Because what consumers think doesn't matter.  After all, "consumers" aren't smart enough to know what they really need, so their betters, i.e. those who've made the incredible sacrifice to serve in government, must make sure they get what they truly need.

    /s
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 37 of 38
    ph382 said:
    Why does EU think that they should be able to snatch the technology that Apple has made popular? This behavior makes me think of the nationalization of oil refineries in Venezuela. Not a good result for the population. The original responses to the Exposure Notification API indicate how well governments and technology mix.
    Apple made ApplePay popular, but NFC is not Apple’s tech. Assume Apple made 4G popular, so can it say it will only allow its own cellular network to use 4G? Cellular chips are not Apple’s tech, so the same way it allows any cellular network to use the iPhone’s calling and data capabilities, it should allow any financial institution to use its contactless capabilities. And your example of nationalization of oil is exactly what Apple is doing, it’s nationalizing NFC on iPhone!
    edited September 2020
  • Reply 38 of 38
    crowleycrowley Posts: 10,453member
    crowley said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    You criticised the EU without a solid base. You attacked Germany and claimed Contactless was work in progress.

    Oh, poor EU, poor Germany. My heart bleeds. Give me a break.

    Their "head start" has largely stalled. At least in the countries to which I regularly traveled (until COVD): UK, France, Germany, Italy. I think that N Europe may be ahead of the rest of the EU (and even perhaps the US). For that matter, China is far far ahead of everyone.
    In March 2020 the German Credit Agency stated that over 50% of payments in Germany were contactless.

    Nothing has stalled in the EU. Contactless is continuing its rollout. Where I am I haven't used cash since March. It is contactless for literally everything. A loaf of bread, coffee, restaurants, shops, supermarkets. Everything. As new cards are issued and mobile phones with NFC become more commonplace, contactless payments increase. In fact, independently of user habits or preferences, contactless is ubiquitous here at typical commercial establishments and even new vending style machines include it.

    COVID-19 has had no impact on the roll out of the technology except for stimulating users to actually make use of it. 

    And as an aside, my bank phased out signature authentication years ago, requiring users to use a PIN. Spain in general has been at the forefront of new payment technologies in many ways, not least because communications technologies are often welcomed with open arms.

    Personally I have never used Apple Pay (not that that is relevant here). The vast majority of my transactions are card based (contactless) because I often do not carry my phone when shopping.


    Germany was at the bottom of the pile just a couple of years ago:



    However, COVID may have changed behaviors somewhat, and brought it closer to the EU average (it'll be interesting to see what happens post-COVID). Also, as the article notes, cash payments still dominate retail and restaurant sales in Germany: https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20200520-will-coronavirus-change-germans-love-of-cash
    Usage is not the same as deployment.  If Germans like to use cash, what's the problem?
    I am not going to bother to explain, except to say, get with context, man.
    I have no idea what point you think you're making, but you're not.
Sign In or Register to comment.