Apple's 'flat out victory' will cause problems for antitrust regulatory efforts

Posted:
in General Discussion
Judge Yvonne Gonzalez Rogers' ruling in the Epic vs. Apple lawsuit may cause headaches for the U.S. government, after Epic failed to prove that Apple violated antitrust laws.




On Friday, Judge Rogers issued her ruling in Epic's lawsuit against Apple. While the ruling could potentially cost Apple billions in enabling developers to advise users of third-party payment methods, it may have also helped Apple escape some scrutiny over other issues.

This includes the U.S. government's attempts to tempter the power of big tech companies like Apple and Google, such as its June 11 legislation package taking aim against antitrust behavior.

As part of the ruling, Judge Rogers deemed that Epic had "failed in its burden to demonstrate Apple is an illegal monopolist." While admitting that Apple had considerable market share and high profit margins, the court believed "these factors alone do not show antitrust conduct. Success is not illegal."

That same ruling may also apply an extra burden on attempts by the U.S. government to rein in the tech giants, according to observers speaking to Bloomberg. As Apple was found not to have violated the Sherman Act, a law typically used to take on monopolistic firms, the ruling makes it much harder for others to use the same law against Apple in the same way.

"It raises the bar to any Justice Department lawsuit," said Cadwalader, Wickersham, & Taft LLP antitrust lawyer Joel Mitnick. "Apple pretty much got a flat out victory on all the Sherman Act claims."

It is also thought that Apple's restrictions on developers, justified to ensure security of the platform, could be a problem. As Judge Rogers says the market is two-sided, this makes the job of determining the harms and benefits of multiple sides, as established in a 2018 U.S. Supreme Court decision, tougher.

"The biggest thing that scares me about this opinion is the two-sided market complexity," according to John Newman, a teacher of antitrust law at the University of Miami School of Law.

"If this is a two-sided market, you can't prove harm to just developers or harm to just consumers. You have to somehow prove net harm across all the different groups that interact through the platform."

Even so, there is still a chance government investigators could see a change of situation. Judge Rogers says that Apple was "near the precipice of substantial market power, or monopoly power," and failed to truly justify the 30% commission fee for many App Store transactions.

Cardozo School of Law teacher and former Justice Department antitrust division lawyer Sam Weinstein slightly differs in his opinion.

"There's a lot here to encourage an enforcer depending on what their investigation looks like," said Weinstein. "If I'm the government, I don't look at this and think we're out of business."

While the ruling primarily affects Apple, it could be argued that elements could be adopted by other platform owners, such as Google and its Play Store, which operates as a direct competitor to the App Store. For example, Google could justify the two-sided market element similarly applies to its store, as it too has developer and consumer "sides" to consider.

Meanwhile, Epic has started its bid to appeal the ruling itself.

Read on AppleInsider
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 26
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,213member
    Fair article, in essence, saying the jury is still out on whether this helps guide an upcoming antitrust claim or makes it more difficult. Judge Rogers herself in her comments accompanying the verdict implies Epic might have been more successful if they had pursued a different line of argument.

    “...the evidence does suggest that Apple is near the precipice of substantial market power, or monopoly power, with its considerable market share. Apple is only saved  ... perhaps, because plaintiff did not focus on this topic.”

    The two-sided market mention is very pertinent too, first time I had seen that mentioned. Any future case targeting big tech is going to have to be well-crafted and argued. 
  • Reply 2 of 26
    rob53rob53 Posts: 3,253member
    Bosa said:
    I don’t know where the public determined that using an off-site provider avails the developer of paying Apple’s fees. The fees are not from the payment itself, that would be ridiculous. Those are developer fees owed to the platform hosting the app, that pay for the review process. Free apps bypass the typical 30% fee for the app sale, so Apple then tacks that same fee onto in-app purchases. If the developer throws a button in an app to PayPal, they don’t suddenly not owe Apple any money just because of where the transaction was made. It’s literally written into the contract. One of the points of this case was whether that was legal, and Apple won that their contract with developers is completely legal, and they have to right to ban Epic’s account, on the matter of the violation alone, even if they pay the money owed to Apple. The public is turning on Epic, but this is now completely out of their hands – Apple has 100% of the say on whether Fortnite can ever return to the app store. They can choose to permanently ban Epic’s developer account from the iOS platform. That has more than just Fortnite keep in mind, that also has a chilling effect on whether Epic can deliver tools to game developers for their Unreal Engine on iOS. Epic bet the farm on this ruling and lost, and have put a lot of their business in jeopardy right now; and instead of begging forgiveness for the reinstatement of their developer rights, they are choosing to appeal. Literally spitting in Apple’s face. I will tell you right now, if they go forward with this appeal and lose, or the court decides not to pick up this case because they agree with the lower court’s ruling – Apple will never allow Epic back on iOS.

    In short, Apple is now in a position to completely end Epic Mobile as we know it , and that would likely finish off Epic, Epic backers can all thank Tim Sweenie. What is astounding , is , knowing al this , Tim Weenie still filed an appeal! This is the time to beg to save your company!!

    Epic board should cal an emergency meeting and remove Tim Sweenie ASAP to save the company 
    "It’s literally written into the contract." I haven't read the developer contract in some time, actually just scanned a bit of it. Please reference where it states that developers will have to pay the equivalent of the 30% commission Apple now charges if they use a non-Apple payment mechanism. Did the judge state that Apple has the right to expect developers would continue to pay this commission for hosting apps?
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 3 of 26
    sdw2001sdw2001 Posts: 18,016member
    rob53 said:
    Bosa said:
    I don’t know where the public determined that using an off-site provider avails the developer of paying Apple’s fees. The fees are not from the payment itself, that would be ridiculous. Those are developer fees owed to the platform hosting the app, that pay for the review process. Free apps bypass the typical 30% fee for the app sale, so Apple then tacks that same fee onto in-app purchases. If the developer throws a button in an app to PayPal, they don’t suddenly not owe Apple any money just because of where the transaction was made. It’s literally written into the contract. One of the points of this case was whether that was legal, and Apple won that their contract with developers is completely legal, and they have to right to ban Epic’s account, on the matter of the violation alone, even if they pay the money owed to Apple. The public is turning on Epic, but this is now completely out of their hands – Apple has 100% of the say on whether Fortnite can ever return to the app store. They can choose to permanently ban Epic’s developer account from the iOS platform. That has more than just Fortnite keep in mind, that also has a chilling effect on whether Epic can deliver tools to game developers for their Unreal Engine on iOS. Epic bet the farm on this ruling and lost, and have put a lot of their business in jeopardy right now; and instead of begging forgiveness for the reinstatement of their developer rights, they are choosing to appeal. Literally spitting in Apple’s face. I will tell you right now, if they go forward with this appeal and lose, or the court decides not to pick up this case because they agree with the lower court’s ruling – Apple will never allow Epic back on iOS.

    In short, Apple is now in a position to completely end Epic Mobile as we know it , and that would likely finish off Epic, Epic backers can all thank Tim Sweenie. What is astounding , is , knowing al this , Tim Weenie still filed an appeal! This is the time to beg to save your company!!

    Epic board should cal an emergency meeting and remove Tim Sweenie ASAP to save the company 
    "It’s literally written into the contract." I haven't read the developer contract in some time, actually just scanned a bit of it. Please reference where it states that developers will have to pay the equivalent of the 30% commission Apple now charges if they use a non-Apple payment mechanism. Did the judge state that Apple has the right to expect developers would continue to pay this commission for hosting apps?
    I think the point is that the judge didn't say otherwise.  And even if Apple couldn't do it, they can make up the difference another way.  As stated previously, nothing is to stop them from uncharging developers who go outside their system.  
    magman1979watto_cobra
  • Reply 4 of 26
    sdw2001sdw2001 Posts: 18,016member
    While this is nearly a complete victory for Apple, I initially had a problem with this statement from the judge:  

    Even so, there is still a chance government investigators could see a change of situation. Judge Rogers says that Apple was "near the precipice of substantial market power, or monopoly power," and failed to truly justify the 30% commission fee for many App Store transactions.

    My first reaction was it was judicial hubris. Why does Apple have to justify their fee to the court?  They could make it 50%.  Or 75%.  Or 1%.  It's all about what the market demands.  If they aren't an illegal monopoly, then what say does the Court have?  

    But then I thought about it.  This is as close to complete "bench slap" as you'll ever see.  I think that perhaps the judge threw Epic a bone by allowing 3rd party payment systems and making the comments above (and the like).  It may just be an attempt to "take the stank off" and help it survive appeal.   
    h2pFileMakerFellerwatto_cobra
  • Reply 5 of 26
    Developers seem to have forgotten that the Apple Developer Program has dropped over the years to $99 for an individual. I could easily see Apple charging developers like Epic  when not using the entire ecosystem and who are using their own payment systems "fees" for memberships, tools, testing, application reviews, App Store hosting, etc.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 6 of 26
    rob53 said:
    Bosa said:
    I don’t know where the public determined that using an off-site provider avails the developer of paying Apple’s fees. The fees are not from the payment itself, that would be ridiculous. Those are developer fees owed to the platform hosting the app, that pay for the review process. Free apps bypass the typical 30% fee for the app sale, so Apple then tacks that same fee onto in-app purchases. If the developer throws a button in an app to PayPal, they don’t suddenly not owe Apple any money just because of where the transaction was made. It’s literally written into the contract. One of the points of this case was whether that was legal, and Apple won that their contract with developers is completely legal, and they have to right to ban Epic’s account, on the matter of the violation alone, even if they pay the money owed to Apple. The public is turning on Epic, but this is now completely out of their hands – Apple has 100% of the say on whether Fortnite can ever return to the app store. They can choose to permanently ban Epic’s developer account from the iOS platform. That has more than just Fortnite keep in mind, that also has a chilling effect on whether Epic can deliver tools to game developers for their Unreal Engine on iOS. Epic bet the farm on this ruling and lost, and have put a lot of their business in jeopardy right now; and instead of begging forgiveness for the reinstatement of their developer rights, they are choosing to appeal. Literally spitting in Apple’s face. I will tell you right now, if they go forward with this appeal and lose, or the court decides not to pick up this case because they agree with the lower court’s ruling – Apple will never allow Epic back on iOS.

    In short, Apple is now in a position to completely end Epic Mobile as we know it , and that would likely finish off Epic, Epic backers can all thank Tim Sweenie. What is astounding , is , knowing al this , Tim Weenie still filed an appeal! This is the time to beg to save your company!!

    Epic board should cal an emergency meeting and remove Tim Sweenie ASAP to save the company 
    "It’s literally written into the contract." I haven't read the developer contract in some time, actually just scanned a bit of it. Please reference where it states that developers will have to pay the equivalent of the 30% commission Apple now charges if they use a non-Apple payment mechanism. Did the judge state that Apple has the right to expect developers would continue to pay this commission for hosting apps?
    Do you seriously think once the dust settles that the "agreement" will not be re-written and specifically call out hosting and non-hosting development partners and associated fees.

    Apple will extract their pound of flesh from Epic. Like Samsung it make take years but eventually they will not have the business relationship they enjoy (ed) today.
    magman1979watto_cobra
  • Reply 7 of 26
    Looking forward to the suits against Burger King for its monopoly on the Whopper, and McDonald's for its Big Mac. And their menus and suppliers. I mean, why can't someone make them offer sushi? Or place an independent developer's chef's taco truck in the parking lot? We demand access to their customer base so we can offer the customer choice!

    ...glad the judge wasn't having it. Hope it sticks.
    edited September 2021 williamlondonradarthekatmagman1979watto_cobraericthehalfbeeMisterKitigorskypscooter63
  • Reply 8 of 26
    crowleycrowley Posts: 10,453member
    Looking forward to the suits against Burger King for its monopoly on the Whopper, and McDonald's for its Big Mac. And their menus and suppliers. I mean, why can't someone make them offer sushi? Or place an independent developer's chef's taco truck in the parking lot? We demand access to their customer base so we can offer the customer choice!

    ...glad the judge wasn't having it. Hope it sticks.
    Burger King and McDonalds don't demand that you pay them if you want to add something extra to your burger after you've left the restaurant.
    gatorguy
  • Reply 9 of 26
    Bosa said:
    Epic board should cal an emergency meeting and remove Tim Sweenie ASAP to save the company 
    I empathize with all your points, but since Tim Sweeney owns over 50% of Epic, he controls over 50% of the votes on the board. Why would he vote himself off?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_Games <--
  • Reply 10 of 26
    crowley said:
    Looking forward to the suits against Burger King for its monopoly on the Whopper, and McDonald's for its Big Mac. And their menus and suppliers. I mean, why can't someone make them offer sushi? Or place an independent developer's chef's taco truck in the parking lot? We demand access to their customer base so we can offer the customer choice!

    ...glad the judge wasn't having it. Hope it sticks.
    Burger King and McDonalds don't demand that you pay them if you want to add something extra to your burger after you've left the restaurant.
    What are you talking about. I understand you are trying to reference something about Apple. But I am not getting it. Could you please explain? Thank you.
    StrangeDays
  • Reply 11 of 26

    The other shareholders should just sell their shares. But who is going to buy them?
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 12 of 26
    Bosa said:
    I don’t know where the public determined that using an off-site provider avails the developer of paying Apple’s fees. The fees are not from the payment itself, that would be ridiculous. Those are developer fees owed to the platform hosting the app, that pay for the review process. Free apps bypass the typical 30% fee for the app sale, so Apple then tacks that same fee onto in-app purchases. If the developer throws a button in an app to PayPal, they don’t suddenly not owe Apple any money just because of where the transaction was made. It’s literally written into the contract. One of the points of this case was whether that was legal, and Apple won that their contract with developers is completely legal, and they have to right to ban Epic’s account, on the matter of the violation alone, even if they pay the money owed to Apple. The public is turning on Epic, but this is now completely out of their hands – Apple has 100% of the say on whether Fortnite can ever return to the app store. They can choose to permanently ban Epic’s developer account from the iOS platform. That has more than just Fortnite keep in mind, that also has a chilling effect on whether Epic can deliver tools to game developers for their Unreal Engine on iOS. Epic bet the farm on this ruling and lost, and have put a lot of their business in jeopardy right now; and instead of begging forgiveness for the reinstatement of their developer rights, they are choosing to appeal. Literally spitting in Apple’s face. I will tell you right now, if they go forward with this appeal and lose, or the court decides not to pick up this case because they agree with the lower court’s ruling – Apple will never allow Epic back on iOS.

    In short, Apple is now in a position to completely end Epic Mobile as we know it , and that would likely finish off Epic, Epic backers can all thank Tim Sweenie. What is astounding , is , knowing al this , Tim Weenie still filed an appeal! This is the time to beg to save your company!!

    Epic board should cal an emergency meeting and remove Tim Sweenie ASAP to save the company 
    I think pretty much everything you wrote is bogus.  E.g. if what you say is 'literally written in the contract', please provide a link - because everything I have read indicates that the 30% commission is simply for in-app digital transactions.  Nothing to do with hosting or other expenses Apple has.  Only some 20% of apps offer IAPs, so the 30% commission these apps get charged is meant to cover all of Apple's App Store related expenses.    As a result of the ruling, apps can point to outside payment mechanisms.  By definition, if a user clicks on a link to a web site and pay for their digital goods there, Apple wold not  get the 30% - since it's no longer an IAP.
    The judge ruled that Apple had a right to get compensated for the sales Epic garnered outside of the Apple platform during the time it violated what was a valid contract.  The judge did NOT say that Apple could continue banning Epic if Epic began adhering to the contract they signed.  However, the judge did rule that one component of the contract, the one to do with outside linking, was anti-competitive under California law and declared that part of the contract unenforceable.  So Epic and other developers may now link to outside payment systems without violating their contracts.  None of what you say about everything being in Apple's hands now is nonsense.  If Epic adheres to the contract, they have to be let back into the App Store - if Apple doesn't do so, Epic can simply sue again - this time for discrimination - and it would be a pretty open and shut case in Epic's favor.

    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 13 of 26
    crowley said:
    Looking forward to the suits against Burger King for its monopoly on the Whopper, and McDonald's for its Big Mac. And their menus and suppliers. I mean, why can't someone make them offer sushi? Or place an independent developer's chef's taco truck in the parking lot? We demand access to their customer base so we can offer the customer choice!

    ...glad the judge wasn't having it. Hope it sticks.
    Burger King and McDonalds don't demand that you pay them if you want to add something extra to your burger after you've left the restaurant.
    They also don’t give their vendors free access to customers to begin with. The point is, McDonald’s owns its stores, available products, and controls what its vendors and franchisees can do. It also doesn’t let indie food providers open up shop in the parking lot for free. 

    Try the mall landlord analogy. You can’t open up shop in a private mall and not pay rent. If Apple didn’t ask for rent from IAPs, then obviously every single app would change its price to $0 and use an IAP to unlock. Thus Apple bought the mall property, built the mall, pays for the infrastructure of the mall, the advertising for the mall, yet would receive $0 in rent from tenants of the private property mall. Makes no sense. You wouldn’t do this. Why should Apple?

    You can’t have an illegal monopoly on your own business. 
    edited September 2021 williamlondonmagman1979watto_cobraericthehalfbeeMisterKitpscooter63
  • Reply 14 of 26
    crowleycrowley Posts: 10,453member
    crowley said:
    Looking forward to the suits against Burger King for its monopoly on the Whopper, and McDonald's for its Big Mac. And their menus and suppliers. I mean, why can't someone make them offer sushi? Or place an independent developer's chef's taco truck in the parking lot? We demand access to their customer base so we can offer the customer choice!

    ...glad the judge wasn't having it. Hope it sticks.
    Burger King and McDonalds don't demand that you pay them if you want to add something extra to your burger after you've left the restaurant.
    They also don’t give their vendors free access to customers to begin with. The point is, McDonald’s owns its stores, available products, and controls what its vendors and franchisees can do. It also doesn’t let indie food providers open up shop in the parking lot for free. 

    Try the mall landlord analogy. You can’t open up shop in a private mall and not pay rent. If Apple didn’t ask for rent from IAPs, then obviously every single app would change its price to $0 and use an IAP to unlock. Thus Apple bought the mall property, built the mall, pays for the infrastructure of the mall, the advertising for the mall, yet would receive $0 in rent from tenants of the private property mall. Makes no sense. You wouldn’t do this. Why should Apple?

    You can’t have an illegal monopoly on your own business. 
    I think it's pretty obvious that these analogies don't work in any useful way. Malls don't handle customer payments and burger joints don't allow sub-vendors.  Best not to try and use bad analogies, they don't simplify any understanding.
    narwhal
  • Reply 15 of 26
    It's kind of crazy that any of these ideas were ever in doubt:

    1. Success is not illegal.
    2. Apple is not a monopolist (duh, ever hear of Android?) 
    3. This isn't just about the welfare of developers, consumers also matter

    I think what truly baffles SO MANY people (including Wall Street types, who for years undervalued AAPL), is that it's actually possible to persistently make pretty big profits without being a monopolist. The key? Consistently stay a step ahead of the competition by consistently making better products. 

    I mean, I understand the Econ 101 argument here -- that if it were a competitive market, some other firm would eventually come along and offer a product as good as Apple's at a lower price, and so then Apple would have to cut prices, etc. 

    The thing that's not covered in Econ 101 is a scenario in which very well capitalized firms do come along and enter the market, but somehow still can't quite match Apple, even though Apple isn't a monopolist who can keep them out. 

    What's the disconnect between Econ 101 and what we are observing? I think maybe the answer is that the 'perfect competition' story is just a story, it's not Truth. Markets don't instantly clear. Some ideas are hard to copy, even if you have a lot of money and nobody is stopping you from trying. 
    radarthekatmagman1979watto_cobrapscooter63
  • Reply 16 of 26
    MacProMacPro Posts: 19,728member
    omasou said:
    rob53 said:
    Bosa said:
    I don’t know where the public determined that using an off-site provider avails the developer of paying Apple’s fees. The fees are not from the payment itself, that would be ridiculous. Those are developer fees owed to the platform hosting the app, that pay for the review process. Free apps bypass the typical 30% fee for the app sale, so Apple then tacks that same fee onto in-app purchases. If the developer throws a button in an app to PayPal, they don’t suddenly not owe Apple any money just because of where the transaction was made. It’s literally written into the contract. One of the points of this case was whether that was legal, and Apple won that their contract with developers is completely legal, and they have to right to ban Epic’s account, on the matter of the violation alone, even if they pay the money owed to Apple. The public is turning on Epic, but this is now completely out of their hands – Apple has 100% of the say on whether Fortnite can ever return to the app store. They can choose to permanently ban Epic’s developer account from the iOS platform. That has more than just Fortnite keep in mind, that also has a chilling effect on whether Epic can deliver tools to game developers for their Unreal Engine on iOS. Epic bet the farm on this ruling and lost, and have put a lot of their business in jeopardy right now; and instead of begging forgiveness for the reinstatement of their developer rights, they are choosing to appeal. Literally spitting in Apple’s face. I will tell you right now, if they go forward with this appeal and lose, or the court decides not to pick up this case because they agree with the lower court’s ruling – Apple will never allow Epic back on iOS.

    In short, Apple is now in a position to completely end Epic Mobile as we know it , and that would likely finish off Epic, Epic backers can all thank Tim Sweenie. What is astounding , is , knowing al this , Tim Weenie still filed an appeal! This is the time to beg to save your company!!

    Epic board should cal an emergency meeting and remove Tim Sweenie ASAP to save the company 
    "It’s literally written into the contract." I haven't read the developer contract in some time, actually just scanned a bit of it. Please reference where it states that developers will have to pay the equivalent of the 30% commission Apple now charges if they use a non-Apple payment mechanism. Did the judge state that Apple has the right to expect developers would continue to pay this commission for hosting apps?
    Do you seriously think once the dust settles that the "agreement" will not be re-written and specifically call out hosting and non-hosting development partners and associated fees.

    Apple will extract their pound of flesh from Epic. Like Samsung it make take years but eventually they will not have the business relationship they enjoy (ed) today.
    No more free XCode for them!
    magman1979watto_cobra
  • Reply 17 of 26

    What's the disconnect between Econ 101 and what we are observing? I think maybe the answer is that the 'perfect competition' story is just a story, it's not Truth. Markets don't instantly clear. Some ideas are hard to copy, even if you have a lot of money and nobody is stopping you from trying. 

    I get what you are trying to say. That said, Econ 101 would have taught you about market differentiation, consumer choice and market segmentation, even niche markets. Products are not the same as undifferentiated commodities.

    I am not sure the judge understands fully what’s monopoly is either. No way could Apple be in the cusp of being a monopoly. It does not have anywhere near enough market share. I suspect that was just a political statement, a bone to throw to those who side with Epic.
    edited September 2021 watto_cobrapscooter63mark fearing
  • Reply 18 of 26
    entropys said:

    What's the disconnect between Econ 101 and what we are observing? I think maybe the answer is that the 'perfect competition' story is just a story, it's not Truth. Markets don't instantly clear. Some ideas are hard to copy, even if you have a lot of money and nobody is stopping you from trying. 
    I suspect that was just a political statement, a bone to throw to those who side with Epic.
    "Political" may refer to the "political processes" behind judicial doors that are used to select judges for upcoming cases.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 19 of 26
    sdw2001sdw2001 Posts: 18,016member
    tjwolf said:
    Bosa said:
    I don’t know where the public determined that using an off-site provider avails the developer of paying Apple’s fees. The fees are not from the payment itself, that would be ridiculous. Those are developer fees owed to the platform hosting the app, that pay for the review process. Free apps bypass the typical 30% fee for the app sale, so Apple then tacks that same fee onto in-app purchases. If the developer throws a button in an app to PayPal, they don’t suddenly not owe Apple any money just because of where the transaction was made. It’s literally written into the contract. One of the points of this case was whether that was legal, and Apple won that their contract with developers is completely legal, and they have to right to ban Epic’s account, on the matter of the violation alone, even if they pay the money owed to Apple. The public is turning on Epic, but this is now completely out of their hands – Apple has 100% of the say on whether Fortnite can ever return to the app store. They can choose to permanently ban Epic’s developer account from the iOS platform. That has more than just Fortnite keep in mind, that also has a chilling effect on whether Epic can deliver tools to game developers for their Unreal Engine on iOS. Epic bet the farm on this ruling and lost, and have put a lot of their business in jeopardy right now; and instead of begging forgiveness for the reinstatement of their developer rights, they are choosing to appeal. Literally spitting in Apple’s face. I will tell you right now, if they go forward with this appeal and lose, or the court decides not to pick up this case because they agree with the lower court’s ruling – Apple will never allow Epic back on iOS.

    In short, Apple is now in a position to completely end Epic Mobile as we know it , and that would likely finish off Epic, Epic backers can all thank Tim Sweenie. What is astounding , is , knowing al this , Tim Weenie still filed an appeal! This is the time to beg to save your company!!

    Epic board should cal an emergency meeting and remove Tim Sweenie ASAP to save the company 
    I think pretty much everything you wrote is bogus.  E.g. if what you say is 'literally written in the contract', please provide a link - because everything I have read indicates that the 30% commission is simply for in-app digital transactions.  Nothing to do with hosting or other expenses Apple has.  Only some 20% of apps offer IAPs, so the 30% commission these apps get charged is meant to cover all of Apple's App Store related expenses.    As a result of the ruling, apps can point to outside payment mechanisms.  By definition, if a user clicks on a link to a web site and pay for their digital goods there, Apple wold not  get the 30% - since it's no longer an IAP.
    The judge ruled that Apple had a right to get compensated for the sales Epic garnered outside of the Apple platform during the time it violated what was a valid contract.  The judge did NOT say that Apple could continue banning Epic if Epic began adhering to the contract they signed.  However, the judge did rule that one component of the contract, the one to do with outside linking, was anti-competitive under California law and declared that part of the contract unenforceable.  So Epic and other developers may now link to outside payment systems without violating their contracts.  None of what you say about everything being in Apple's hands now is nonsense.  If Epic adheres to the contract, they have to be let back into the App Store - if Apple doesn't do so, Epic can simply sue again - this time for discrimination - and it would be a pretty open and shut case in Epic's favor.

    Well, no.  

    Apple doesn't have to let Epic back in.  Realistically, they will find a reason.  Suing for "discrimination?"  That would not be a valid legal claim.  Companies don't sue others for discrimination.  The best Epic could hope for is breach of contract.  But Apple Legal will be too well prepared to fall into that trap.  

    As for the IAPs, Apple can easily deal with this in future contracts.  Nothing says Apple can't surcharge-in one way or another- those developers who use third party payment systems. They aren't just going to sit back and make less money.  
    FileMakerFellermagman1979watto_cobra
  • Reply 20 of 26
    blastdoor said:

    What's the disconnect between Econ 101 and what we are observing? I think maybe the answer is that the 'perfect competition' story is just a story, it's not Truth. Markets don't instantly clear. Some ideas are hard to copy, even if you have a lot of money and nobody is stopping you from trying. 
    Yup.  Perfect competition assumes perfect information (everyone knows everything including the future) and homogenous (identical) products.  People arguing against Apple by invoking perfect competition need to read more advanced textbooks.
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