Baby steps to peace
Hummmm? I hold no hope. I can't see how there can be peace between Israel and the arab muslims. But .... there's movement. Arafat gave up the PM position to Mahmoud Abbas although he's little more than a figurehead and Arafat still claims authority over issue wrt Israel. Well Abbas took power today and Sharon is ready to make "painful concessions" ie settlements.
Report: Sharon willing to make 'painful concessions'
I've been thinking about this for a while. I think the only solution has to be much more pan-arab than just the PA and Israel. Many of the governments in the middle east sideways or directly support terrorism against Israel and factions will settle for nothing less than the country off the face of the map. Not that they ever put Israel on the map in the first place.
To do that I think "everyone" needs to work their end the best they can. The US can work Israel. France can work all the brutal anti-semetic dictatorships they are so chummy with. Germany on whoever. Other EU members on anyone else. Very great pressure need to be brought with every country in this part of the world to let them know that it's over. The jews are not leaving, you can't support terrorism against them, you can't build settlements anymore, you have to have something like and open border, blah blah blah IT'S OVER!
I don't think it will happen.
Report: Sharon willing to make 'painful concessions'
I've been thinking about this for a while. I think the only solution has to be much more pan-arab than just the PA and Israel. Many of the governments in the middle east sideways or directly support terrorism against Israel and factions will settle for nothing less than the country off the face of the map. Not that they ever put Israel on the map in the first place.
To do that I think "everyone" needs to work their end the best they can. The US can work Israel. France can work all the brutal anti-semetic dictatorships they are so chummy with. Germany on whoever. Other EU members on anyone else. Very great pressure need to be brought with every country in this part of the world to let them know that it's over. The jews are not leaving, you can't support terrorism against them, you can't build settlements anymore, you have to have something like and open border, blah blah blah IT'S OVER!
I don't think it will happen.
Comments
" Why Terrorism works" by Alan M Dershowitz.
I suspect he will make a lot of enemies, but he makes an awful lot of sense.
He is particularly critical of France, Germany, Italy & other European countries who have had a track record of turning a blind eye on acts of terrorism. ( Tragically the so called peace loving French are more Anti Semitic than the Germans )
He makes the comparison between the palestinian cause & that of the Tibetans, who have both struggled for independence since the late 1940's . Tibet chose to go down the path of non violent agression. Palestinians have chosen the gun.
The results speak for themselves.
The PLO is the only terrorist organisation to have a seat in the United nations !
The Arabs so vehemently HATE the Jews that Hamas & Hezbollah have made it their awoved promise to wipe israel off the face of the map.
The irony is that to date, during the entire 50 years of Israel / palestinian conflict LESS palestinians have been killed in their conflicts with Israel than have been killed by their own Arab muslim brothers in Arms.
Black September is so called because it recalls the day that the Palestinains under the foolish leadership of Arafat, launched a war against the Jordanian King & his government.
The result, 20,000 palestinian fighters were killed in the uprising. Yet it doesn't rate a mention in Arabic nationalistic thinking.
And here is one final point for all the Palestinian apologists.
When you see children being shot at for throwing stones ( as well as carrying grenades etc )..ask yourself this.
Why aren't these children in School ?
Don't they have schools in the West Bank or Gazza ?
And No I am NOT Jewish,
I just don't believe that killing innocent civilians is the answer.
There is more I could say but i'll keep quiet for now.
Originally posted by aquafire
And here is one final point for all the Palestinian apologists.
When you see children being shot at for throwing stones ( as well as carrying grenades etc )..ask yourself this.
Why aren't these children in School ?
Don't they have schools in the West Bank or Gazza ?
And No I am NOT Jewish,
I just don't believe that killing innocent civilians is the answer.
There is more I could say but i'll keep quiet for now.
As for you ... errr ... being an apologist for people who shoot children seems to you to be OK.
They are both murderers and should both be called such.
Originally posted by Harald
Scott, here's a first: take your daft anti-euro rhetoric out and I agree with you. Everyone needs to press everyone, and both Palestinians and Israelis are going to have to make compromises.
...
It's hard to be positive about Europe these days. They've made such a mess of things. I mean, Jews are being beaten in the streets of Paris, 1/3 of the French people want Hussain to win the war, EU funds get diverted to terrorism and UN "refugee camps" serve as operation bases for Hammas and IJ? Just to name a few. Compromises have to come from everyone not just Israel and Palestine but all other Arab countries. Every single one of them. There's so many countries involved that no one western country can do it all.
Originally posted by Scott
It's hard to be positive about Europe these days. They've made such a mess of things. I mean, Jews are being beaten in the streets of Paris, 1/3 of the French people want Hussain to win the war, EU funds get diverted to terrorism and UN "refugee camps" serve as operation bases for Hammas and IJ? Just to name a few. Compromises have to come from everyone not just Israel and Palestine but all other Arab countries. Every single one of them. There's so many countries involved that no one western country can do it all.
Well ... I actually don't want to get into one of those "Yeh well the US suxx0rs no Euro suxx0rs" things, if only to mark the occasion of us agreeing.
I disagree with the inflammatory bull you write above and could provide my list too though.
I presume that the US is going to have to moderate its behaviour too, or is it 100% in the right, no questions asked?
As was so clearly demonstrated by the Fedayhin in Iraq, the Iraqs spoke of these self styled terrorists as hiding behind women and children to get at the marines.
Gee same old tactics used by the PLO in the intefada.
If you've ever been a soldier under fire in urban warfare, you'd know that don't get much of a chance to distinguish clearly the age or combantant or non combatant status of those firing over the heads or between children particularly when the avwerage distance is over 300 yards.
When Israeli soldiers do kill children, there is an enquiry ( Not a white wash ), When the PLO Murder Jewish children, there isn't an enquiry, but celebrations.
Golda Meir said,
" We will never have peace in the middle east until the Palestinians love there children more than they love killing Jews."
I think the recent photo of a Palestinian baby wearing a high explosive vest and drapped with bullet belts really backs that mentality to the hilt.
What if anything are European countries and leadership doing to promote the peace in the middle east?
Clinton tried very hard for peace in the middle east situation, where is Europe in all of this? It seems far too many european countries are sadly not involved in a process for peace.
Tony Blair is the one exception that is very clear.
Fellowship
Read Dershowitz et al, he makes it pretty plain that European countries have deliberately (since the late 1960's when France fell out with israel ) fostered global terrorism by trying to understand its
" root cause ".
This is a pap for trendy left wing middle class revolutionaries forever wanting to stand at the barracades waying a red flag in one hand while drinking champagne in the other.
In my country giving comfort to criminals is called
" Aiding & abetting " for which you can go to jail for a very long stretch.
But because Europe is almost entirely dependent on the flow of oil from the middle east, they choose to turn a blind eye on the attrocities carried out in Israel & even within their own borders by the PLO & its allied splinter factions.
Yes, America isn' t perfect, nor England or any other country that truly believes in democracy & liberty; but the Euoropean doctrine of " Appeasement " towards the PLO & other violent islamic groups in their midst makes a mockery of their alleged even handed approach to the question of the israeli / palestinian conflict.
And by the way, if you think that the european press is unbiased think again. AFP ( Allied French Press ) were the ones to coin the emotive term " Refugee camps "
to describe the solid brick towns & cities filled with Palestinians living in the West bank & Gaza Strip.
Its an Oxymoron to desribe any such town or city built of solid bricks & supplied with power , sewerage , lighting etc as being the equivilant to a " tent flapping in a sand storm ", but that's the image they want you to believe when they use the term " Refugee camp "
You cant be a refugee in your own country..Duhhhh !
Originally posted by aquafire
Re the Europeans,
Read Dershowitz et al, he makes it pretty plain that European countries have deliberately (since the late 1960's when France fell out with israel ) fostered global terrorism by trying to understand its
" root cause ".
This is a pap for trendy left wing middle class revolutionaries forever wanting to stand at the barracades waying a red flag in one hand while drinking champagne in the other.
In my country giving comfort to criminals is called
" Aiding & abetting " for which you can go to jail for a very long stretch.
But because Europe is almost entirely dependent on the flow of oil from the middle east, they choose to turn a blind eye on the attrocities carried out in Israel & even within their own borders by the PLO & its allied splinter factions.
Yes, America isn' t perfect, nor England or any other country that truly believes in democracy & liberty; but the Euoropean doctrine of " Appeasement " towards the PLO & other violent islamic groups in their midst makes a mockery of their alleged even handed approach to the question of the israeli / palestinian conflict.
And by the way, if you think that the european press is unbiased think again. AFP ( Allied French Press ) were the ones to coin the emotive term " Refugee camps "
to describe the solid brick towns & cities filled with Palestinians living in the West bank & Gaza Strip.
Its an Oxymoron to desribe any such town or city built of solid bricks & supplied with power , sewerage , lighting etc as being the equivilant to a " tent flapping in a sand storm ", but that's the image they want you to believe when they use the term " Refugee camp "
You cant be a refugee in your own country..Duhhhh !
Originally posted by aquafire
When you can't rebut use insults..thats a real sign of intelligence!
Oh, where to start? That's the problem.
Frankly you're so obviously a lost cause I can't be arsed.
Those countries are not at all dependent on middle eastern oil and those countries that have been most engaged in finding solutions to the dead lock (Norway by the Oslo process and Denmark by having drafted the plan for middle eastern peace that are now the officially road map adopted by UN, US and partly UN.)
Consider your theory debunked by reality.
And about the rich red flag carrying champagne socialists: We are democracies (where people actually vote!) and if you think that picture is representative of the popultaion of europe I have news for you.
About the refugee camps: They are refugees. "One who flees in search of refuge, as in times of war, political oppression, or religious persecution" (american heritage dictionary). They cannot go back to their country (because of political opression from the Israel. What else would you call not being allowed to settle in you old country) and they are not citizents of the country they live in. That makes them refugees. Hence the name. It may alter your view on what the word covers but there is no doubt that the term is correct. Please notice it was the word "refugee", not camp, you argued against. I´m willing to call them refugee villages or towns if you are more pleased with that.
And in general terms: There is no such thing as more or less dependent of oil from certaint regions. Oil is dealt on a global marked place and, as an effect of capitalist economy, all customers are dependent on all producers of the goods. Only exception are those countries that produce enough or more oil or alternative energy that they need themself (Denmark and Norway produce a lot more oil than we need and Sweden have a total energy surplus with water generators and nuclear powerplant).
Debunking with reality. I like that.
You only go to prove my point.
The countries of europe you mention are hardly the "power players of european politics"
Where are France & Germany in this equation of yours.
Oil is a global commodity,,really ? I remember oil being used as a political weapon during the first oil crisis brough on as a result of the Yom Kippur War between Egypt, Jordan & Israel..
Do you remember Sheik Yamanni who said the "west should become less independent on oil "
As to the definition of who is a refugee, I will follow the United Nations definition of it's meaning.
That means all of the palestinians from the "Occupied territories"
So why did the "Oslo Agreement" fail when Israel was willing to give up to 95% of all the occupied territories in dispute?
And as for Israeli "Oppression"
I wonder how much you would like it if people randomly blew up your children & other innocent civilians as they went about buying a pizza or getting onto a bus ?
As for the red flag carrying middle class, you might like to read Paolo Friere's
"The pedagogy of the Oppressed "
Most revolutions fail because the middle class like to see themselves as the authentic voice of the powerless & downtrodden...only trouble is they often stand on the very heads of those they want to liberate"
Originally posted by Harald
My god, what a lot of bollocks.
Not at all which helps to highlight my point. This is why we need everyone on board. The EU needs to account for the aid it sends to the PA and be as sure as they can that it doesn't get used to sideways support terror against the Jews. The US needs to turn the screws to Israel to create a solid piece of land the Palestinians can live on. The entire arab muslim world needs to be forced into giving up it's war on the Jews. No more half measures and face saving. It's all failed in the past. I think most of us are mother****ing sick of this stupid situation and it needs to end in the next 10 years. The whole world needs to get together and end this thing before it end us.
My real dream scenario would go something like this.
The Unitied nations, The Arab league and the EU all back and finance a plan whereby
the Sinai peninsula is purchased from Egypt and turned over to the Unitied nations to become the new Israel. "Israel" is tehn renamed Palestine.
Sounds crazy?
Not really.
Not when you consider that many strictly religious orthodox jews don't like the idea of an Israel as it presently exists.
They of their own stated position would be just as happy to live in Palestine so long as Jerusalem was recognized as the religious capitol of all three great Messianic ( sic ) traditions.
Sure it would cost Billions, even Trillions, but compared to the hopeless bloodshed & destroyed lives on both sides of the equation to date.
Egypt could certainly do with the money,
Israel would be in a land of its forefathers (Moses spent 40 years there ) & with three times the area to grow into, plus 4 easily definable & defendable borders.
It worked between Russia & America re Alaska so why couldn't it work in this case..... it's so outlandish...it might actually work !
Originally posted by aquafire
Anders the White,
You only go to prove my point.
The countries of europe you mention are hardly the "power players of european politics"
Where are France & Germany in this equation of yours.
Its all about comparisment. The historical most left winged countries of europe are those working most constructive for peace in the region. So the "left winged europeans loooove terrorist group and really don´t want to find a solution" doesn´t have anything to float on.
I can recognize the stereotype you are presenting as a stereotype present here as well. But how many people are we talking about? less than ½% of the population so it has nothing to do with the politics of the countries. If you think it has you have to doi more than present an easy stereotype that is nothing more than a strawman (love that word)
Originally posted by aquafire
Oil is a global commodity,,really ? I remember oil being used as a political weapon during the first oil crisis brough on as a result of the Yom Kippur War between Egypt, Jordan & Israel..
Do you remember Sheik Yamanni who said the "west should become less independent on oil "[/B]
Again comparisment. You suggested that european countries was dependent on oil from the middle east. I say we are no less dependent that US are and in some cases not dependent of it at all.
Originally posted by aquafire
As to the definition of who is a refugee, I will follow the United Nations definition of it's meaning.
That means all of the palestinians from the "Occupied territories"
So why did the "Oslo Agreement" fail when Israel was willing to give up to 95% of all the occupied territories in dispute?[/B]
So we agree on the definition (if you mean people coming from the occupied territories, not only those left back. In that case please show me where UN have defined the refugees as such). So why do you try to shift the focus? No matter what went on in disputes between Arafat and Israel doesn´t take away their status as refugees. And if you want to talk about why the talks felt through try dig up an old thread on the issue or at least start a new one. It has been discussed
on several occasions here.
Originally posted by aquafire
And as for Israeli "Oppression"
I wonder how much you would like it if people randomly blew up your children & other innocent civilians as they went about buying a pizza or getting onto a bus ?
When did the oppression startup start? Before or after the suicide bombs? It isn´t an excuse but neither should the bombs be excuses for not giving the Palestinians their right.
Originally posted by aquafire
As for the red flag carrying middle class, you might like to read Paolo Friere's
"The pedagogy of the Oppressed "
Most revolutions fail because the middle class like to see themselves as the authentic voice of the powerless & downtrodden...only trouble is they often stand on the very heads of those they want to liberate"
And in what way does that mean anything for the rights of the Palestinians? If someone you don´t like support them should that have negative effects for them?
Its an interesting argument you present even if it isn´t very precise and I would love to unfold it. But thats for another thread completly.
Originally posted by aquafire
Ditto Scott,
My real dream scenario would go something like this.
The Unitied nations, The Arab league and the EU all back and finance a plan whereby
the Sinai peninsula is purchased from Egypt and turned over to the Unitied nations to become the new Israel. "Israel" is tehn renamed Palestine.
Sounds crazy?
People
already
live
there.
I don't think they'll want to leave. It's the land of their forefathers too, you see.
Originally posted by aquafire
Ditto Scott,
My real dream scenario would go something like this.
The Unitied nations, The Arab league and the EU all back and finance a plan whereby
the Sinai peninsula is purchased from Egypt and turned over to the Unitied nations to become the new Israel. "Israel" is tehn renamed Palestine.
Sounds crazy?
Not really.
Not when you consider that many strictly religious orthodox jews don't like the idea of an Israel as it presently exists.
They of their own stated position would be just as happy to live in Palestine so long as Jerusalem was recognized as the religious capitol of all three great Messianic ( sic ) traditions.
Sure it would cost Billions, even Trillions, but compared to the hopeless bloodshed & destroyed lives on both sides of the equation to date.
Egypt could certainly do with the money,
Israel would be in a land of its forefathers (Moses spent 40 years there ) & with three times the area to grow into, plus 4 easily definable & defendable borders.
It worked between Russia & America re Alaska so why couldn't it work in this case..... it's so outlandish...it might actually work !
Like the thoughts behind the idea. But its not all ´(and not near 50%) of the orthordox jews that fell that way. And it would be just as bad to expell people growing up in, say, Tel Aviv, as what Israel is now doing to the [SIZE=]refugees[/SIZE]. No more of those solutions please.