EU tells Apple to open everything up to its rivals

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  • Reply 41 of 86
    JapheyJaphey Posts: 1,766member

    "The next job for Apple and other Big Tech, under the DMA is to open up its gates to competitors," he said. "Be it the electronic wallet, browsers or app stores, consumers using an Apple iPhone should be able to benefit from competitive services by a range of providers."

    If I wanted to benefit from competitive services by a range of providers, I would have chosen Android. 
    baconstangstrongywatto_cobra
  • Reply 42 of 86
    Surely the consumer should be allowed to decide not the EU. I don't want this opened up to anyone. I am happy locked behind Apple's gates. Shine on. EU Policing. Someone is doing deals in the backrooms to make this sort of rubbish a policy.
    baconstangwilliamlondonstrongywatto_cobra
  • Reply 43 of 86
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,513member
    laytech said:
    Surely the consumer should be allowed to decide not the EU. I don't want this opened up to anyone. I am happy locked behind Apple's gates. Shine on. EU Policing. Someone is doing deals in the backrooms to make this sort of rubbish a policy.
    You can decide. Just decide not to use the future options that you don't already have.

    The DMA/DSA (and more that is still in the pipe) is a way level the playing field for everyone and give consumers more rights and choice.


    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 44 of 86
    georgie01 said:
    mknelson said:
    jdgaz said:
    Now I completely understand why England left the EU. 
    The con by Nigel Farage and his buddies? In the UK today Brexit is widely considered to be a failure. Even Nigel has said that.
    If Brexit is a failure it’s not because it is a failure, it would be because people who didn’t want it made it a failure. If the country had just embraced it and gone along with it, whether they wanted it or not, it would have been quite a success and the UK would be reaping the benefits already and the EU would be less powerful. But the stupid games of globalist politicians and their manipulation of the public has made it a lot worse.

    Still workable though, but the public can’t keep rejecting it.
    Oh really? So the EU should just open up the common market to 3rd countries to be nice?
    sphericwilliamlondonwatto_cobra
  • Reply 45 of 86
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,513member
    georgie01 said:
    mknelson said:
    jdgaz said:
    Now I completely understand why England left the EU. 
    The con by Nigel Farage and his buddies? In the UK today Brexit is widely considered to be a failure. Even Nigel has said that.
    If Brexit is a failure it’s not because it is a failure, it would be because people who didn’t want it made it a failure. If the country had just embraced it and gone along with it, whether they wanted it or not, it would have been quite a success and the UK would be reaping the benefits already and the EU would be less powerful. But the stupid games of globalist politicians and their manipulation of the public has made it a lot worse.

    Still workable though, but the public can’t keep rejecting it.
    There are no 'benefits' to Brexit and the people 'embracing it' wouldn't have changed a thing.

    The reality is what it was always going to be, and the EU made it clear in one sentence: 'You can't be better off out than in' and for obvious reasons.

    What you are seeing is that aspect playing out in all its glory. No amount of embracing is going to change anything. 

    I'm an expat living in the EU. My family back in the UK tells me the NHS isn't on its knees. It's flat on its face in agony. 

    You can't go into the sea or even a river because everything is literally a danger to public health and then God help you if you need to use the NHS. 

    Food inflation has worsened in part as a result of not having access to the EU market in the same conditions as prior to Brexit. 

    I'm working out my pension options and the government wants me to accept a delay in replying that could be as long as a year!

    I have to contact them because there are pages on their web with conflicting information. 

    I know why. My brother was involved in implementing the mess there. No fault of his own. When you get the mandate you do it. So they sub-contract everything and interoperability inevitably breaks at some point when new projects pop up or existing one suddenly change course. 

    Brexit is a cancer eating away at the foundations of life in the UK and it will only get worse. 

    So much fuss about fishing rights only for fishermen to be left high and dry and, due to climate change, some species have now migrated further north and out of UK fishing territories! 

    The list is almost endless. 

    In terms of EU laws and reworking those back onto UK statutes, that is another mess. 

    Size brings clout. The UK would never be able to negotiate these Big Tech changes without getting its collective testicles twisted in the bargain, and the UK is serving its testicles on a plate to anyone negotiating trade deals with it because Brexit nixed all its bargaining power.

    That means a deal with the US will NOT happen without access to UK health, pharmacy, food and consumer rights. Of course it also means the UK can get its stinking paws off any US technology players because that won't be 'allowed'. 
    edited September 2023 spheric
  • Reply 46 of 86
    saareksaarek Posts: 1,520member
    davidw said:
    saarek said:
    twolf2919 said:
    red oak said:
    "EU regulation fosters innovation, without compromising on security and privacy“  

    What a f****** joke 
    He really has no fkn clue of what he’s talking about.
    ߃怜t;/div>
    Apple is going to be forced, by these id1ots, to allow alternate app stores, wallets, etc.  I hope that every install and every invocation of an app from an alternative app store is preceded  with the warning "This app was not tested by Apple - do you want to proceed?"  Sort of like those super annoying cookie dialog you're forced to click through on every European web site.  But unlike those web sites, Apple users will still have the choice of only downloading/installing apps from the Apple App store.  That alone will keep most people from going to alternatives.
    Yes and no. Let’s say you want to buy Resident Evil Village and the price is £50 on the official App Store, or £35 on another side loaded App Store. Identical game, different price.

    You personally might decide to give Apple £15 extra, but most won’t.

    It’s the same with gaming on a Mac (yes, I know, “gaming on a Mac” haha, etc) I doubt hardly anyone buys the game through the App Store should it be available. Why pay the crazy prices of the App Store when you can usually buy it for a lot less on Steam or GOG? Most don’t, for obvious reasons.

    Apple has been actively dissuading developers from releasing apps on a pay once use for life system and have been pushing developers to adopt monthly payments. This is a system I personally abhor because rather than paying £5-30 for the average decent app they now want you to pay £5-30 a year, if not more, to account for the number of people that refuse to subscribe or whom cancel after a month. Who knows, perhaps some competing store will allow sensible options like upgrades, something which Apple refuses to do.

    You don't have clue as to how the Apple App Store works. Apple do not set the price of the app. Apple do not get the extra £15 . The developers set the price of their apps and pays Apple a 15/30% commission, depending on if they make less than or over $1M a year with the App Store. You are not paying Apple the extra  £15, you are paying the developer the extra  £15. On a  £35 app purchase Apple will get £10.5 (based on a 30% Commission). On a £50 app purchase, Apple gets  £15 (based on the same 30% commission). So Apple will only gets an extra £4.5 on that extra  £15 that the developer charged.

    If sideloading (and third party stores) are so much more profitable for developers, then why did Epic Games put Fortnite in the Google Play Store? Why aren't the most profitable apps (for the  developers) on Android being sideloaded or in a third party app store? Why aren't developers that develop for both Android and iOS making a ton more profit on Android, where they can have their apps sideloaded or in a third party app store? 

    Fortnite was first available for sideloading before Epic made it available in the Google Play Store. And by all account, Epic made a ton more money from having their Fortnite app in the Google Play Store. This even after having to pay Google their commission on IAP. The fact is that over 90% of Android users do not and will not sideload an app or get their apps from anywhere else other than the Google Play Store. Because of this, Epic CEO Sweeney is still suing Google for having a monopoly with their app store, even though Android allows third party app stores and sideloading.

    If developers want access to those customers that will not get their apps from anywhere else other that the Apple App Store (or Google Play Store), they will have to pay for for having that access. Which would a developer rather have? Sell 1M copies at  £35 by way of sideloading or maybe sell 5M copies at £35 in the Apple App Store. And don't forget, it will still cost developers to support sideloading or to be in a thrid party app store, not to mention processing payments.  

    BTW- Steam charges the same 30% commission (and maybe more on some games) that Apple and Google charges. So why would a developer price their games more on the Apple App Store (or Google Play Store)? Unless you actually clueless as to how it works. So instead of give us a made up scenario where a developer will charge £35 for their game in a third party app store and £50 in the Apple App Store (where Apple gets the extra mark up), give us a real example on Android (with Google getting the extra markup). Android has always been allowed sideloading and third party app stores. 











    You're making an assumption yourself. I'm well aware of Apple's model and yes I am aware that all of that £15 did not go to Apple, semantics my friend, I was making a comparison against store pricing. 

    Funnily enough it's you who does not seem to understand, let's consider your comment of "why would a developer price their games more on the Apple App Store (or Google Play Store)?" Steam is a good example of this, in Apple App Store land the price typically remains the same and never drops over time. Obviously a developer would love this, but in the real world when a AAA game gets older the price drops over time and even at release time it's not unusual to find the App Store pricing more expensive. Examples, Civ IV App Store £59.99, Steam £49.99. Rome Total War Remastered, App Store £29.99, Steam £19.99. Disney Dreamlight valley, App Store £29.99, Steam £16.65.


    edited September 2023 williamlondon
  • Reply 47 of 86
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,244member
    Scot1 said:
    As a Canadian, while, I don’t support legislation to force Apple to open up their eco stream, make no mistake, the EU is as economically powerful as the United States
    Based on GDP comparisons between the U.S. and the EU, you made a mistake.

    U.S. GDP in 2022 was about $25 T

    EU GDP in 2022 was about $16 T

    The U.S. largest trading partner is Canada, followed by Mexico, China, and then the EU.

    The populations of NAFTA, and the EU are about the same at 450 million.

    What's interesting is that the U.S. shifting supply chains out of China is particularly benefitting Mexico and the State of Texas.





    sphericwilliamlondonwatto_cobra
  • Reply 48 of 86
    EU regulations often seem overreaching to me, but the EU is a democracy and I respect their right to govern themselves as they wish. If the EU is making a mistake here, then future elections will give EU citizens the chance to reverse that mistake.

    That’s a huge contrast with China, where the government has zero accountability to citizens.

    I encourage people living in democracies to support each other and to recognize that even though our various governments are not perfect, and can sometimes make big mistakes, we are all vastly better off than if we were run by dictatorship or oligarchy. The US, NATO, EU, Japan, South Korea, Australia, and others need to stick together and fight to win this new Cold War with China and Russia. That’s vastly more important than smartphone regulations.
    williamlondonFileMakerFeller
  • Reply 49 of 86
    Funnily enough it's you who does not seem to understand, let's consider your comment of "why would a developer price their games more on the Apple App Store (or Google Play Store)?" Steam is a good example of this, in Apple App Store land the price typically remains the same and never drops over time. Obviously a developer would love this, but in the real world when a AAA game gets older the price drops over time and even at release time it's not unusual to find the App Store pricing more expensive. Examples, Civ IV App Store £59.99, Steam £49.99. Rome Total War Remastered, App Store £29.99, Steam £19.99. Disney Dreamlight valley, App Store £29.99, Steam £16.65.
    The U.S. App Store doesn't have Civilization IV. Civ VI is $59.99 and Civ V is $29.99. Those prices are identical to the Mac versions available on Steam. Same goes for Rome Total War Remastered: $29.99 on both the App Store and Steam for Mac. Disney Dreamlight Valley doesn't appear to be available for Mac from Steam BUT the Windows price is $29.99. That's identical to the Mac version of the game that is on the Mac App Store. 
    muthuk_vanalingamwatto_cobra
  • Reply 50 of 86
    Dear Thierry, can I have a BMW engine in my Mercedes, please? And I should be able to put any headlights in my car well well, thank you. And while you’re at it, I want to control my Bosch appliance with the Samsung app, buy competitors’ products in my supermarket of choice and run iOS on Android phones. No biggie for you, I suppose. Cheers. 
    I don’t understand this. You are aware that there are car enthusiasts that does this all the time. The car manufacturers do not care after they’ve sold you the car what you do with it. Sure it will void the warranty but the car is yours.
    williamlondonwatto_cobra
  • Reply 51 of 86
    tmay said:
    Scot1 said:
    As a Canadian, while, I don’t support legislation to force Apple to open up their eco stream, make no mistake, the EU is as economically powerful as the United States
    Based on GDP comparisons between the U.S. and the EU, you made a mistake.

    U.S. GDP in 2022 was about $25 T

    EU GDP in 2022 was about $16 T

    The U.S. largest trading partner is Canada, followed by Mexico, China, and then the EU.

    The populations of NAFTA, and the EU are about the same at 450 million.

    What's interesting is that the U.S. shifting supply chains out of China is particularly benefitting Mexico and the State of Texas.



    Seems like you’ve got some rounding problems gdp for 2022 was

    EU $17.8
    US $25.5

    but also NAFTA was dissolved a few years back.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 52 of 86
    mjtomlinmjtomlin Posts: 2,673member
    If this is an actual security issue, and as important security is to Apple… I have to believe Apple will just create forks of their operating systems that are EU only. It’s a big enough market that they could hire more engineers to do that. Those OS updates will just come out much later and less frequently than the rest of the world.


    watto_cobra
  • Reply 53 of 86
    Here is a thought, maybe EU should open to include all countries. 

    EU seems to have an especially difficulty in understanding what competition is. Apple is not a monopoly and thus is allowed to do whatever is legal to gain an advantage over its competitors. Plus, Apple also needs to make tons of money for its shareholders.
    williamlondonwatto_cobra
  • Reply 54 of 86
    EU is as bad as if not worse than China 
    williamlondondanoxwatto_cobra
  • Reply 55 of 86
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,244member
    chelin said:
    tmay said:
    Scot1 said:
    As a Canadian, while, I don’t support legislation to force Apple to open up their eco stream, make no mistake, the EU is as economically powerful as the United States
    Based on GDP comparisons between the U.S. and the EU, you made a mistake.

    U.S. GDP in 2022 was about $25 T

    EU GDP in 2022 was about $16 T

    The U.S. largest trading partner is Canada, followed by Mexico, China, and then the EU.

    The populations of NAFTA, and the EU are about the same at 450 million.

    What's interesting is that the U.S. shifting supply chains out of China is particularly benefitting Mexico and the State of Texas.



    Seems like you’ve got some rounding problems gdp for 2022 was

    EU $17.8
    US $25.5

    but also NAFTA was dissolved a few years back.
    NAFTA morphed into the USMCA in 2020, which was in place since 1994, 26 years, so, I went with that.

    https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/naftas-economic-impact

    President Trump described NAFTA as "the worst trade deal ever made", but yeah, Trump.

    But other economists, including Gary Clyde Hufbauer and Cathleen Cimino-Isaacs of the Peterson Institute for International Economics (PIIE), have emphasized that increased trade produces overall gains for the U.S. economy. Some jobs are lost due to imports, but others are created, and consumers benefit significantly from falling prices and often improved quality of goods. Their 2014 PIIE study of NAFTA’s effects found a net loss of about fifteen thousand jobs per year due to the pact—but gains of roughly $450,000 for each job lost, in the form of higher productivity and lower consumer prices. 

    The GDP numbers depend on sources. Your mileage varied, but it doesn't change the basic point that the EU isn't as economically powerful as the U.S. 

    https://tradingeconomics.com/euro-area/indicators

    https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/indicators

    FileMakerFellerwatto_cobra
  • Reply 56 of 86
    radarthekatradarthekat Posts: 3,823moderator
    Maybe Apple could sell its new products each year everywhere except the EU, and in the EU sell last year's models running the EU iOS with all that openness they want.  Sorry, it takes a year to validate the EU-open editions of our operating systems on each new Apple hardware release.  Enjoy living in the past.  
    williamlondonwatto_cobra
  • Reply 57 of 86
    Madbum said:
    EU is as bad as if not worse than China 
    Hyperbole much?
    spheric
  • Reply 58 of 86
    sphericspheric Posts: 2,529member
    mubaili said:
    Here is a thought, maybe EU should open to include all countries. 

    EU seems to have an especially difficulty in understanding what competition is. Apple is not a monopoly and thus is allowed to do whatever is legal to gain an advantage over its competitors. 
    That is exactly right. I suspect that you might want to think that "whatever is legal" bit — because that is kinda the point here. 
    muthuk_vanalingamwatto_cobra
  • Reply 59 of 86
    mjtomlinmjtomlin Posts: 2,673member
    avon b7 said:

    Apple is not forced to do business in the EU. If it does, it's it was for a reason. It makes made business sense. 


    People are not forced to buy an iPhone, if they do, it’s for a reason. It makes personal sense.

    Fixed that for you.

    Enacting laws that turn your business model upside down and force you to basically rewrite your operating systems is not reasonable by any measure. It’s not a simple matter of just opening the ”gate”, when the changes are foundational - it’s more like, knocking down the wall and rebuilding it. Furthermore, Apple is not going to do anything to break security or privacy… they’re just going to work under it, which will probably mean limiting everything, even their own services and features, to enable 3rd parties to offer an alternative.

    Apple will have to create a forked version of their OS to comply with EU laws and regulations. The EU is a big enough market that will allow for the cost. This will lead to more expensive devices with less features. But at least Europeans will be to use “local” alternatives to some features, which is what the EU wants - to prop up local technologies. And there’s nothing wrong with that, but I have a feeling this leads to future laws…

    - All websites must be compatible with [EU] browser and all devices must ship with said browser, if those devices come with built in browser
    - All stores must accept [EU] wallet app and all devices must ship with said wallet app if those devices come with built in wallet app

    This is how you end up taking away choice by offering a choice. Microsoft was famous for this. When you offer something that becomes ubiquitous, common logic says just use it instead of anything else. 

    Bottom line, if Apple is forced to break security and sacrifice user privacy to comply with these laws, then my choice of having a secure platform is gone. But everyone else who wanted an “open” platform already has that choice, there are literally hundreds of Android models. And that’s the real problem here… neither of those options is EU based, and the EU is butt-hurt about it. Let me know, are there are any EU companies that these laws affect? If not, this is simply “nationlism”. These laws were made to punish successful foreign companies in the hopes that it will allow a few “local” companies to thrive.

    For over 40 years Apple has been able to make the products the way they want and sell them in Europe… that is now no longer the case.
    strongywatto_cobra
  • Reply 60 of 86
    sphericspheric Posts: 2,529member
    mjtomlin said:

    This is how you end up taking away choice by offering a choice. Microsoft was famous for this. When you offer something that becomes ubiquitous, common logic says just use it instead of anything else. 
    Funny that you should mention Microsoft, of all things… 

    But what I haven't seen mentioned here is that the failure to fully interoperate in the MESSENGER space just means that virtually nobody uses iMessage here in Europe. 

    It's WhatsApp, Telegram, Signal, FB Messenger, Threema, whatever. I use the Apple Messages app, but there's like three people that I occasionally use iMessage features with — like tapback, or the occasional cheesy balloon effect or so. Literally everyone else is on WhatsApp, Signal, and FB Messenger for me — sometimes all three. 
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