Epic takes its 'Fortnite' fight with Apple to the Supreme Court

Posted:
in General Discussion

After losing on nearly every count against Apple in lower courts and appeals venues, Epic is taking its last shot at prevailing on its antitrust case to the Supreme Court.

Epic Games viral '1984' ad campaign against Apple
Epic Games viral '1984' ad campaign against Apple



Epic lost its antitrust case against Apple, didn't accomplish anything with appeals, and has complained about the one ruling it did win. Epic has also already appealed to the Supreme Court about the case before, and failed to get anything changed.

Despite all of that, Epic is ready to challenge Apple again by bringing the case to the Supreme Court for review. In a court document reviewed by AppleInsider, Epic has filed a writ of certiorari asking the Supreme Court to review the antitrust case and its ruling.

Epic has accused Apple of antitrust practices that uses monopoly control of the App Store to corner the iPhone app market and rake in billions in revenue. Apple's alleged control prevents anyone, like Epic, from starting their own app store on iPhone and competing with the company.

Apple argues that it doesn't participate in antitrust practices and companies are welcome to compete via Safari websites and other venues. The closed nature of the App Store, Apple argues, is for user privacy and security.

Epic launched an attack on Apple via its game Fortnite that bypassed Apple's App Store payment system. After Apple kicked the offending app from the App Store, Epic sued.

Epic lost on every count but one, Apple's anti-steering practices. Apple has appealed against this ruling and a stay is in place to stop Apple from having to comply with the ruling until the appeal is complete.

It isn't clear if Epic will have any success appealing the Supreme Court. Changes to the lower court's ruling could have significant ramifications for Apple, iPhone, and the entire app economy.


Epic Supreme Court Petition by Mike Wuerthele

Read on AppleInsider
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 24
    Most likely outcome: SC doesn't take up the case. 
    williamlondonmacxpresschasmFileMakerFellerdewmepscooter63beowulfschmidt13485watto_cobra
  • Reply 2 of 24
    carnegiecarnegie Posts: 1,075member
    Apple is likely to file its own cert petition, asking the Supreme Court to consider aspects of the case, today or tomorrow. I think the deadline for filing that petition is, as it was for Epic, tomorrow.
    williamlondonronnchasmFileMakerFeller13485watto_cobra
  • Reply 3 of 24
    I'll be happy with Epic finally goes out of business. 
    williamlondonchasmaderuttermagman1979kurai_kageigorskywatto_cobra
  • Reply 4 of 24
    Most likely outcome: SC doesn't take up the case. 
    Lets hope so...We have much more pressing things to worry about than some pissant who thinks his company isn't doing the very same things he pissing and moaning about Apple for. He really just needs to be ousted from Epic Games. He's an embarrassment to the company. 
    chasmwilliamlondonFileMakerFellergregoriusmkurai_kagewatto_cobra
  • Reply 5 of 24

    nizzard said:
    I'll be happy with Epic finally goes out of business. 
    Epic does provide a great platform but its leader just needs to go. He's not doing the company any favors at all. So I don't necessarily want to see it go but they just to refocus their priorities and going after a company that can help them grow is not the answer. 
    Alex1Ngregoriusmwatto_cobra
  • Reply 6 of 24
    danoxdanox Posts: 2,703member
    macxpress said:
    Most likely outcome: SC doesn't take up the case. 
    Lets hope so...We have much more pressing things to worry about than some pissant who thinks his company isn't doing the very same things he pissing and moaning about Apple for. He really just needs to be ousted from Epic Games. He's an embarrassment to the company. 
    Sweeney Todd isn’t going anywhere he is an Evil Genius, Unreal Engine I must admit is an awesome piece of software. Too bad Apple was looking the other way when it came to game engines. 

    Speaking of which another piece of software that is awesome is Blackmagic Camera app for iOS, works on a four year-old iPad Pro. And also works on 11 Pro iPhone and everything else that’s been released after, the very definition of a great third-party program.
    edited September 2023 chasmwilliamlondontmaywatto_cobra
  • Reply 7 of 24
    Fortnite will fall out of fashion some day, solving that issue, but the Unreal engine is actually important until a proper open-sourced competitive engine is available to it.  There are some now, but they are not at the level of Unreal or Unity.  Otherwise, we get the outrageous conduct attempted by Unity the past month as a simple result of monopolization.

    This does not look like a case that the Supreme Court is likely to agree to hear, but Epic's problem is that, at the end of the litigation, the preliminary injunction stopping Apple from ending its contractual arrangement with Epic also comes to an end.  
    Alex1NronnFileMakerFellerwatto_cobra
  • Reply 8 of 24
    chasmchasm Posts: 3,229member
    If you want to see why Apple should stick to its guns (on everything but anti-steering) no matter what, take a look at the behaviour Epic has engaged in since they’ve been kicked off the App Store.

    — Illegally collected data on kids
    — Allowing minors to charge game items to CCs without parental consent
    —Using deceptive practices to make it easy to accidentally buy items you don’t want
    — Making it impossible to get a refund if you accidentally bought something or no longer want it
    — Locking the accounts of gamers who requested refunds or complained

    This isn’t just an opinion: the government forced Epic to pay out $245 million to settle these claims in a lawsuit it brought against Epic, so this is a proven and admitted pattern of behaviour.

    That is NOT the kind of company Apple should ever want in the App Store, never mind being forced to take them back by SCOTUS or the EU or whoever.
    williamlondonronnFileMakerFellerdewmegregoriusmdavkurai_kagewatto_cobra
  • Reply 9 of 24
    chasmchasm Posts: 3,229member
    carnegie said:
    Apple is likely to file its own cert petition, asking the Supreme Court to consider aspects of the case, today or tomorrow. I think the deadline for filing that petition is, as it was for Epic, tomorrow.
    They already did, a few weeks ago now. Sweeney is being Mr. Last Minute Filer, here.

    If the court takes up the case, we’ll need to ask the billionaire owners of at least two of the judges what THEY think in order to get an idea of how the court will rule. :)
    edited September 2023 ronntenthousandthingsdarkvaderbeowulfschmidtdavkurai_kagewilliamlondonFileMakerFeller13485watto_cobra
  • Reply 10 of 24
    macxpress said:
    Most likely outcome: SC doesn't take up the case. 
    Lets hope so...We have much more pressing things to worry about than some pissant who thinks his company isn't doing the very same things he pissing and moaning about Apple for. He really just needs to be ousted from Epic Games. He's an embarrassment to the company. 
    He's the majority stakeholder in his own private company which has been seeing massive growth, so probably not going anywhere.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 11 of 24
    nizzard said:
    I'll be happy with Epic finally goes out of business. 
    I wouldn't be. Unreal Engine is pretty essential.
    darkvaderwatto_cobra
  • Reply 12 of 24
     fastasleep said:
    nizzard said:
    I'll be happy with Epic finally goes out of business. 
    I wouldn't be. Unreal Engine is pretty essential.
    it would be funny if Apple picked up UE in the fire sale though
    FileMakerFellerwatto_cobra
  • Reply 13 of 24
    Sweeney is right up there with Tech Bros like Musk that just need to STFU and leave this planet, full stop.
    williamlondonwatto_cobra
  • Reply 14 of 24
    carnegiecarnegie Posts: 1,075member
    chasm said:
    carnegie said:
    Apple is likely to file its own cert petition, asking the Supreme Court to consider aspects of the case, today or tomorrow. I think the deadline for filing that petition is, as it was for Epic, tomorrow.
    They already did, a few weeks ago now. Sweeney is being Mr. Last Minute Filer, here.

    If the court takes up the case, we’ll need to ask the billionaire owners of at least two of the judges what THEY think in order to get an idea of how the court will rule. :)
    They hadn't already filed a cert petition (in the Epic case) before today. I'm aware that some places had incorrectly reported or suggested that they had; I"ve pointed that mistake out a few times. It was in Apple's interests to wait as long as they could to file and the standard 90-day deadline was today, so they filed today.
    ronnwilliamlondonFileMakerFellermuthuk_vanalingamwatto_cobra
  • Reply 15 of 24
    danoxdanox Posts: 2,703member
    nizzard said:
    I'll be happy with Epic finally goes out of business. 
    I wouldn't be. Unreal Engine is pretty essential.
    Which is why Apple can’t sit on the sidelines when it comes to game engines, the evolution of what Unreal Engine has become, can’t be ignored by Apple any longer, it’s too important going into their computing future and I don’t think dependence on a third party company is going to work long-term.

    The recent flake out of Unity also adds to the fire now that Apple is starting to add Ray Tracing cores to their hardware, and into future to even smaller devices, they need more control the 15 pro with its A17 processor (heat), and what’s coming up with the Apple Vision Pro, the tolerances, wattage/heat/battery are just too important. if programs like Instagram are causing trouble what do you think gonna happen with a game engine? I’m sure Apple is talking about it, with Epic/Unity in their face in recent times.

    https://www.unrealengine.com/en-US.  Just take a look around. It’s too important…. In the future.


    watto_cobra
  • Reply 16 of 24
     fastasleep said:
    nizzard said:
    I'll be happy with Epic finally goes out of business. 
    I wouldn't be. Unreal Engine is pretty essential.
    it would be funny if Apple picked up UE in the fire sale though
    LOL what fire sale? Epic Games is worth around $32 Billion.
  • Reply 17 of 24
    danox said:
    nizzard said:
    I'll be happy with Epic finally goes out of business. 
    I wouldn't be. Unreal Engine is pretty essential.
    Which is why Apple can’t sit on the sidelines when it comes to game engines, the evolution of what Unreal Engine has become, can’t be ignored by Apple any longer, it’s too important going into their computing future and I don’t think dependence on a third party company is going to work long-term.

    The recent flake out of Unity also adds to the fire now that Apple is starting to add Ray Tracing cores to their hardware, and into future to even smaller devices, they need more control the 15 pro with its A17 processor (heat), and what’s coming up with the Apple Vision Pro, the tolerances, wattage/heat/battery are just too important. if programs like Instagram are causing trouble what do you think gonna happen with a game engine? I’m sure Apple is talking about it, with Epic/Unity in their face in recent times.

    https://www.unrealengine.com/en-US.  Just take a look around. It’s too important…. In the future.
    In what way is Apple dependent on Unreal Engine?

    What "flake out of Unity"?

    Not sure what you mean by Instagram causing trouble or what that has anything to do with game engines. Developers actively work to optimize their software for new hardware, often in tandem with Apple. This is no different for Unity and Epic.

    Not sure what you're talking about, once again.
  • Reply 18 of 24
    danox said:
    nizzard said:
    I'll be happy with Epic finally goes out of business. 
    I wouldn't be. Unreal Engine is pretty essential.
    Which is why Apple can’t sit on the sidelines when it comes to game engines, the evolution of what Unreal Engine has become, can’t be ignored by Apple any longer, it’s too important going into their computing future and I don’t think dependence on a third party company is going to work long-term.

    The recent flake out of Unity also adds to the fire now that Apple is starting to add Ray Tracing cores to their hardware, and into future to even smaller devices, they need more control the 15 pro with its A17 processor (heat), and what’s coming up with the Apple Vision Pro, the tolerances, wattage/heat/battery are just too important. if programs like Instagram are causing trouble what do you think gonna happen with a game engine? I’m sure Apple is talking about it, with Epic/Unity in their face in recent times.

    https://www.unrealengine.com/en-US.  Just take a look around. It’s too important…. In the future.
    In what way is Apple dependent on Unreal Engine?

    What "flake out of Unity"?

    Not sure what you mean by Instagram causing trouble or what that has anything to do with game engines. Developers actively work to optimize their software for new hardware, often in tandem with Apple. This is no different for Unity and Epic.

    Not sure what you're talking about, once again.
    Instagram is purportedly one of the key offenders of iPhones running hot (this forum comment).
    Unity has recently backed down from a proposed licensing fee change that really annoyed their developers. There's another AI article covering why it's a problem for Apple.
    danoxwatto_cobra
  • Reply 19 of 24
    MarvinMarvin Posts: 15,273moderator
     fastasleep said:
    nizzard said:
    I'll be happy with Epic finally goes out of business. 
    I wouldn't be. Unreal Engine is pretty essential.
    it would be funny if Apple picked up UE in the fire sale though
    LOL what fire sale? Epic Games is worth around $32 Billion.
    They make a lot of revenue so this recent move was surprising:

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/fortnite-developer-epic-games-axing-16-of-staff-laying-off-830-employees-and-sells-bandcamp/ar-AA1hphko
    https://www.epicgames.com/site/en-US/news/layoffs-at-epic

    Sweeney says they've been spending more than they earn for a while. They went to net-zero hiring, cut back on marketing but have still had to layoff 830 people (1/3 from their core teams). This will leave them with over 4000 employees.

    It looks like they have been bitten by the same problem as Facebook/Meta trying to invest in the metaverse. They mentioned trying to cut down legal costs trying to take on Apple and say the legal fight is about the metaverse.

    They won't have long-term financial problems as long as Fortnite keeps bringing in the revenue ($20b+ so far).

    Sweeney complained about a report saying Apple and Google were among the top earning game companies:



    "Seeing Apple and Google in the top of the game revenue charts, making tens of billion of dollars every year, is disgusting. THEY DON’T MAKE GAMES! They just place an unwanted and useless toll both in front of games made by others."



    But the problem is including Apple and Google on the graph and implying they are 'game companies'. Most of those companies run stores for 3rd party game developers and make a significant amount of revenue that way too just like Epic does (they only really make 3 games - Unreal Tournament, Gears of War, Fortnite). His beef is that companies who don't make games shouldn't take a cut from companies who sell games through their store, which is a dumb point of view. GameStop, WalMart, Amazon sold games for years without making games and no legal challenge from Sweeney.

    The real elephant in the room, as is clear from the chart, is Tencent, which is the largest outside investor in Epic. They are the ones who want to take Apple and Google's revenue. The instant that Apple is forced to allow 3rd party stores in China, Tencent will find a way to become the dominant store there, like they have with Google and it will cost Apple $10b+.
    ronnwatto_cobrafastasleep
  • Reply 20 of 24
    danoxdanox Posts: 2,703member
    danox said:
    nizzard said:
    I'll be happy with Epic finally goes out of business. 
    I wouldn't be. Unreal Engine is pretty essential.
    Which is why Apple can’t sit on the sidelines when it comes to game engines, the evolution of what Unreal Engine has become, can’t be ignored by Apple any longer, it’s too important going into their computing future and I don’t think dependence on a third party company is going to work long-term.

    The recent flake out of Unity also adds to the fire now that Apple is starting to add Ray Tracing cores to their hardware, and into future to even smaller devices, they need more control the 15 pro with its A17 processor (heat), and what’s coming up with the Apple Vision Pro, the tolerances, wattage/heat/battery are just too important. if programs like Instagram are causing trouble what do you think gonna happen with a game engine? I’m sure Apple is talking about it, with Epic/Unity in their face in recent times.

    https://www.unrealengine.com/en-US.  Just take a look around. It’s too important…. In the future.
    In what way is Apple dependent on Unreal Engine?

    What "flake out of Unity"?

    Not sure what you mean by Instagram causing trouble or what that has anything to do with game engines. Developers actively work to optimize their software for new hardware, often in tandem with Apple. This is no different for Unity and Epic.

    Not sure what you're talking about, once again.

    You don’t want to and seemingly you can’t keep up with recent developments. Once again it’s too important. If I a social media program can cause a heat problem. What do you think about a game using a third-party gaming engine? The immaturity of Sweeney Todd and the Unity meltdown says it all, and it won’t get any better with any other third-party gaming engine company. Apple may have to do something not because they want to but because they have to.

    Also it isn’t like the AAA game companies are jumping to support Apple ecosystems anyway, and if they are as flaky as Unreal Engine and Unity, Apple definitely isn’t gonna pay any of them to do anything, that’s probably what they’re hoping for. They’re hoping Apple will pay them sight unseen upfront, ray tracing is already in the A17 and is coming to the M3 Apple Silicon, whether they participate or not.
    edited September 2023 watto_cobra
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