iPhone 16 to use graphene heat sink to solve overheating issues

Comments

• Reply 1 of 17

  bigcountry Posts: 26member

  November 16, 2023 4:04AM

  So... what good does this do when most iPhone owners have their phone in a case that has very poor thermal conductivity?

  
• Reply 2 of 17

  Wesley Hilliard Posts: 207member, administrator, moderator, editor

  November 16, 2023 4:29AM

  bigcountry said:

  So... what good does this do when most iPhone owners have their phone in a case that has very poor thermal conductivity?

  Getting the heat off of the battery and the processor is the first priority. After that, it's not that big an issue. The graphene heat sink is more important for getting heat away from critical components, which will be more efficient than what's there now.

  
• Reply 3 of 17

  FileMakerFeller Posts: 1,557member

  November 16, 2023 5:39AM

  Could be interesting if Apple goes down this path for the desktop Macs - the Studio might be able to drop some height.

  
• Reply 4 of 17

  InspiredCode Posts: 403member

  November 16, 2023 5:47AM

  Improving thermal conductivity in iPhone 16 Pro does not mean there is an issue with the 15 Pro. It has performed fine for me. A little warm after processing photos for a day or so, but it hasn’t had a problem easily overheating under load.
  

  
• Reply 5 of 17

  InspiredCode Posts: 403member

  November 16, 2023 5:49AM

  bigcountry said:

  So... what good does this do when most iPhone owners have their phone in a case that has very poor thermal conductivity?

  Improved thermal conductivity is likely just to make the phone warmer overall.

  
• Reply 6 of 17

  dope_ahmine Posts: 255member

  November 16, 2023 8:31AM

  This innovative phone case will cool your overheated iPhone 15 down!
  
  

  Now only $49 on Black Friday!!!

  
• Reply 7 of 17

  OctoMonkey Posts: 304member

  November 16, 2023 12:34PM

  Wesley Hilliard said:

  bigcountry said:

  So... what good does this do when most iPhone owners have their phone in a case that has very poor thermal conductivity?

  Getting the heat off of the battery and the processor is the first priority. After that, it's not that big an issue. The graphene heat sink is more important for getting heat away from critical components, which will be more efficient than what's there now.

  That is only beneficial in the (very) short term...  until whatever you are pumping the heat into approaches thermal equilibrium with the component(s) you are attempting to cool.  That heat has to go somewhere and if the phone is held in a case with poor thermal conductivity, the heat inside the case has nowhere to go (quickly).
  
  I suspect the ideal solution would be the screen.  It has a large surface area and there is rarely anything more than an ultra-thin screen protector and when in use is usually exposed to air.  Perhaps DOW (or whoever Apple uses) can develop a super tough glass screen which also has high thermal conductivity.

  
• Reply 8 of 17

  kellie Posts: 55member

  November 16, 2023 1:37PM

  Apple needs to develop a back that isn’t made entirely of glass.  Glass is a poor conductor of heat.  Apple needs to improve software efficiency of the OS and the their apps.  Fewer cycles equals less heat.  Improve their cases to an increase thermal transfer.  Air vents Or strategically located metal surfaces to transfer heat and act as a radiator.  Adjust consumer expectations.  You can only put so much processing power in an unventilated tiny space.  Apple should have been able to identify the iPhone 15 heat issues long before they started selling it.  The class action lawyers are already working on a new case. 

  
• Reply 9 of 17

  techconc Posts: 275member

  November 16, 2023 2:09PM

  InspiredCode said:

  Improving thermal conductivity in iPhone 16 Pro does not mean there is an issue with the 15 Pro. It has performed fine for me. A little warm after processing photos for a day or so, but it hasn’t had a problem easily overheating under load.
  

  I also have a 15 Pro.  Yes, it's a great phone.  However, depending on how you use your phone, this can be a big deal.  If you need high performance in short bursts, the current design is fine.  If you need SUSTAINED high performance for something like gaming, thermal management is a big deal. There are reviews that measure for this and many Android phones are able to spread the heat better across the phone and maintain a higher power level for a longer period of time.  This IS an already that Apple needs to address. 

  
• Reply 10 of 17

  OctoMonkey Posts: 304member

  November 16, 2023 2:27PM

  kellie said:

  Apple needs to develop a back that isn’t made entirely of glass.  Glass is a poor conductor of heat.  Apple needs to improve software efficiency of the OS and the their apps.  Fewer cycles equals less heat.  Improve their cases to an increase thermal transfer.  Air vents Or strategically located metal surfaces to transfer heat and act as a radiator.  Adjust consumer expectations.  You can only put so much processing power in an unventilated tiny space.  Apple should have been able to identify the iPhone 15 heat issues long before they started selling it.  The class action lawyers are already working on a new case. 

  I had mentioned the possibility of developing a glass with high thermal conductivity - https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/11/211124153852.htm
  
  Air vents would prevent the phone from having an IP rating.  Vents are also only valuable until they get clogged with debris (lint, dust, et al.) or blocked by a case.
  
  Having a large metal body is great but, as previously mentioned, becomes far less effective when the phone is installed in a case.  While the case could be manufactured using thermally conductive materials, you would still have significant loss at the point of contact between the phone and the case.
  
  Efficiency of the CPU and software would certainly help, but most people who write software these days pay little attention to code efficiency.  Why bother when there always seem to be more resources available (memory & cpu cycles).

  edited November 2023
• Reply 11 of 17

  tht Posts: 5,526member

  November 16, 2023 5:33PM

  OctoMonkey said:

  Wesley Hilliard said:

  bigcountry said:

  So... what good does this do when most iPhone owners have their phone in a case that has very poor thermal conductivity?

  Getting the heat off of the battery and the processor is the first priority. After that, it's not that big an issue. The graphene heat sink is more important for getting heat away from critical components, which will be more efficient than what's there now.

  That is only beneficial in the (very) short term...  until whatever you are pumping the heat into approaches thermal equilibrium with the component(s) you are attempting to cool.  That heat has to go somewhere and if the phone is held in a case with poor thermal conductivity, the heat inside the case has nowhere to go (quickly).
  
  I suspect the ideal solution would be the screen.  It has a large surface area and there is rarely anything more than an ultra-thin screen protector and when in use is usually exposed to air.  Perhaps DOW (or whoever Apple uses) can develop a super tough glass screen which also has high thermal conductivity.

  Yup. 

  
  

  It’s turtles all the way down. Probably not using the analogy correctly, but the graphene isn’t a heatsink. It does a great job transferring heat. So, heat source, transfer heat to the next thing, that next thing transfers heat to the next thing, so on and so forth, until you get to space. 
  
  For handhelds like a phone, the big turtle is your hand, and the phone can’t get too hot for your skin. So, that ultimately limits how many Watts the SoC can consume, which is going to be able 4 to 5 Watts sustained. 
  

  
  

  Apple uses graphene in the MBA already. It’s the black sheet glued to the metal sheet that covers the logic board. There is thermal paste between it and the SoC, and what looks to be insulation between it and the NAND and other packages. 

  
  

  Armchair YouTubers love to shade Apple with their thermal MBA pad mods, showing that they can get more performance. But all they have done is concentrated the heat to spot in the bottom, increasing burn risks. 

  
  

  If Apple is using graphene in iPhones, and I thought they already were, what they are trying to do is the spread the heat across as much of the surface area of the phone as possible, reducing hot spots. 

  
• Reply 12 of 17

  danox Posts: 3,022member

  November 16, 2023 5:46PM

  FileMakerFeller said:

  Could be interesting if Apple goes down this path for the desktop Macs - the Studio might be able to drop some height.

  Careful now that I have one I don’t want Max’s head being touched.  

  
• Reply 13 of 17

  Wolflow Posts: 9member

  November 16, 2023 6:25PM

  bigcountry said:

  So... what good does this do when most iPhone owners have their phone in a case that has very poor thermal conductivity?

  
  A more robust / less fragile iPhone would be very welcome indeed
  

  
• Reply 14 of 17

  dope_ahmine Posts: 255member

  November 16, 2023 10:16PM

  kellie said:

  Apple needs to ……Improve their cases to an increase thermal transfer.  ……The class action lawyers are already working on a new case. 

  But will the new case have increased thermal transfer?

  
• Reply 15 of 17

  OctoMonkey Posts: 304member

  November 17, 2023 12:05AM

  tht said:

  OctoMonkey said:

  Wesley Hilliard said:

  bigcountry said:

  So... what good does this do when most iPhone owners have their phone in a case that has very poor thermal conductivity?

  Getting the heat off of the battery and the processor is the first priority. After that, it's not that big an issue. The graphene heat sink is more important for getting heat away from critical components, which will be more efficient than what's there now.

  That is only beneficial in the (very) short term...  until whatever you are pumping the heat into approaches thermal equilibrium with the component(s) you are attempting to cool.  That heat has to go somewhere and if the phone is held in a case with poor thermal conductivity, the heat inside the case has nowhere to go (quickly).
  
  I suspect the ideal solution would be the screen.  It has a large surface area and there is rarely anything more than an ultra-thin screen protector and when in use is usually exposed to air.  Perhaps DOW (or whoever Apple uses) can develop a super tough glass screen which also has high thermal conductivity.

  Yup. 

  
  

  It’s turtles all the way down. Probably not using the analogy correctly, but the graphene isn’t a heatsink. It does a great job transferring heat. So, heat source, transfer heat to the next thing, that next thing transfers heat to the next thing, so on and so forth, until you get to space. 
  
  For handhelds like a phone, the big turtle is your hand, and the phone can’t get too hot for your skin. So, that ultimately limits how many Watts the SoC can consume, which is going to be able 4 to 5 Watts sustained. 
  

  
  

  Apple uses graphene in the MBA already. It’s the black sheet glued to the metal sheet that covers the logic board. There is thermal paste between it and the SoC, and what looks to be insulation between it and the NAND and other packages. 

  
  

  Armchair YouTubers love to shade Apple with their thermal MBA pad mods, showing that they can get more performance. But all they have done is concentrated the heat to spot in the bottom, increasing burn risks. 

  
  

  If Apple is using graphene in iPhones, and I thought they already were, what they are trying to do is the spread the heat across as much of the surface area of the phone as possible, reducing hot spots. 

  The wattage does not matter if you cannot get the heat out of the unit.  1/4 Watt will melt lead if you cannot remove the heat and you allow enough time.  Is the phone in a silicon case?  Is the case held in a hand or in the free air (remember delta-T).
  
  I have designed a number of high power units where a fair bit of power needed to be removed from a sealed unit operating in a high temperature environment.  There are a number of factors to consider, but in the end it all boils down to how much heat you can remove from the device per unit of time.

  
• Reply 16 of 17

  tht Posts: 5,526member

  November 17, 2023 2:32AM

  OctoMonkey said:

  tht said:

  OctoMonkey said:

  Wesley Hilliard said:

  bigcountry said:

  So... what good does this do when most iPhone owners have their phone in a case that has very poor thermal conductivity?

  Getting the heat off of the battery and the processor is the first priority. After that, it's not that big an issue. The graphene heat sink is more important for getting heat away from critical components, which will be more efficient than what's there now.

  That is only beneficial in the (very) short term...  until whatever you are pumping the heat into approaches thermal equilibrium with the component(s) you are attempting to cool.  That heat has to go somewhere and if the phone is held in a case with poor thermal conductivity, the heat inside the case has nowhere to go (quickly).
  
  I suspect the ideal solution would be the screen.  It has a large surface area and there is rarely anything more than an ultra-thin screen protector and when in use is usually exposed to air.  Perhaps DOW (or whoever Apple uses) can develop a super tough glass screen which also has high thermal conductivity.

  Yup. 

  
  

  It’s turtles all the way down. Probably not using the analogy correctly, but the graphene isn’t a heatsink. It does a great job transferring heat. So, heat source, transfer heat to the next thing, that next thing transfers heat to the next thing, so on and so forth, until you get to space. 
  
  For handhelds like a phone, the big turtle is your hand, and the phone can’t get too hot for your skin. So, that ultimately limits how many Watts the SoC can consume, which is going to be able 4 to 5 Watts sustained. 
  

  
  

  Apple uses graphene in the MBA already. It’s the black sheet glued to the metal sheet that covers the logic board. There is thermal paste between it and the SoC, and what looks to be insulation between it and the NAND and other packages. 

  
  

  Armchair YouTubers love to shade Apple with their thermal MBA pad mods, showing that they can get more performance. But all they have done is concentrated the heat to spot in the bottom, increasing burn risks. 

  
  

  If Apple is using graphene in iPhones, and I thought they already were, what they are trying to do is the spread the heat across as much of the surface area of the phone as possible, reducing hot spots. 

  The wattage does not matter if you cannot get the heat out of the unit.  1/4 Watt will melt lead if you cannot remove the heat and you allow enough time.  Is the phone in a silicon case?  Is the case held in a hand or in the free air (remember delta-T).
  
  I have designed a number of high power units where a fair bit of power needed to be removed from a sealed unit operating in a high temperature environment.  There are a number of factors to consider, but in the end it all boils down to how much heat you can remove from the device per unit of time.

  Oh, I definitely think Apple designs for 4 to 5 Watt sustained without a case on and with maximum device surface temperature of around 110 °F or so. For a 6" handheld. They'll design a minimum heat transfer system that gets them 4 to 5 W sustained with device surface temperature that is hot to the touch but not a risk to the user or the components at that power consumption level. It can peak to 7, 8, 10 W for a few seconds, maybe minutes (?), but a long sustained run will be on order 4 to 5 Watts.
  
  An insulating case may decrease the time to get to a point of shutting down the phone, yes, but I don't think that is Apple's design condition at all. The design condition is going to be something like 95 °F ambient temperature at 10,000 ft altitude or something like that. Everything else will be an edge case. Like you won't be doing any long running high power consumption ops at 110 °F ambient or when exposed to high temps in the sun. The phone is just going to shut down or not run.
  
  This rumor is strange, or the interpretation of the data from the rumor is strange. A metal encased battery is not new to Apple. They have been using them in Apple Watches for a few years now. This may be that they finally have production of metal encased batteries to the point that a large one can be built at the price targets for a phone. The metal encased batteries may be just more robust, easier to replace, safer to service, have better structural performance, etc. Better thermal conductivity? They could just use thermal paste and graphene on pouch batteries.
  
  The graphene? I thought they are already using it in iPhones? If there is more extensive use, it will be to spread the heat across as much of the surface area of the iPhone as possible. I don't think changes how many Watts they'll let the SoC consume. It will be the same combinations of glass and metal. It's surface temperatures will be about the same. It has to dissipate 4 to 5 Watts.
  
  Use of the vapor chambers (Kuo rumormongering) is really for transfer heat right off the lid of the SoC package, where it is more efficient with concentrated heat sources. It won't do anything about device touch temperatures. It's all the same 4 to 5 Watts sustained that needs to be removed. If Apple wants to have 8, 9, 10 Watts per core, they might use them. Maybe at 2nm? But there will be thermal transistors to spread heat at the silicon level sooner or later.

  
• Reply 17 of 17

  cubeover Posts: 13member

  November 18, 2023 7:18AM

  Great news, gives me hope.
  Full list of tricks to steal from the dead Razer Phone  
  - vapour chamber cooling
  - WQHD screen (1440 pixels wide, not stupidly tall like sonys that stick out of pockets)
  - higher quality bluetooth like LDAC or AptX Adaptive
  Those would make me switch back… some year…