The part that i totally not understand: Essentially the EU ruled that Ireland is guilty of charging a too low tax rate. It certainly raked in all of the benefits (i.e. moving lot's of money through Ireland, without much costs to Ireland).
So as a punishment for Ireland it get's 13 Billion $.
Please EU can I be punished as well?
(Much fairer would have been that Ireland - not Apple - get's to pay 13 BiIllion$ to the rest of the EU member states)
The part that i totally not understand: Essentially the EU ruled that Ireland is guilty of charging a too low tax rate. It certainly raked in all of the benefits (i.e. moving lot's of money through Ireland, without much costs to Ireland).
So as a punishment for Ireland it get's 13 Billion $.
Please EU can I be punished as well?
(Much fairer would have been that Ireland - not Apple - get's to pay 13 BiIllion$ to the rest of the EU member states)
This is not a punitive case. This is about people paying what they owe.
Advice to Ireland- withdraw from the EU! From uncontrolled immigration and crime issues to economic dictation, the EU best served itself and its unelected bureaucrats than its member countries who have surrendered their sovereignty to Brussels!
Weird in the extreme.
The Eurobarometer system tracks how EU citizens see things and has years of surveys to pull data from.
You will find that, on the whole, EU citizens are happy being in the EU and support its goals.
In the case of Ireland specifically, I'd say you'd be hard pushed to scrape together a significant amount of people to vote to leave.
That said, years of high tech companies in and around Cork has led to locals feeling pushed out due to things like the cost of housing. On the other hand those companies provide job opportunities to the local population too.
You're never going to satisfy everyone but most EU citizens are perfectly happy with the EU.
Uncontrolled immigration cannot be stopped. Just ask Great Britain post-Brexit. So much for leaving the EU on the immigration card.
It doesn't matter if you have a wall or a sea. People will find a way.
Advice to Ireland- withdraw from the EU! From uncontrolled immigration and crime issues to economic dictation, the EU best served itself and its unelected bureaucrats than its member countries who have surrendered their sovereignty to Brussels!
You nuts bro.
The EU's support of Ireland has meant it has gone from one of the poorest countries in the bloc to one of the richest. It's a major success story, and the Irish are not going to jeopardise that by doing something so stupid like leave the EU. Only one country has ever been idiotic enough to do that, and they're knee deep in shit as a consequence.
Apple should have been paying tax on the earnings it made in each individual nation instead of making its non-US earnings disappear into a tax haven. Apple can say all it likes about paying tax according to local tax laws, but it did its best to hide earnings in each country by using basically a post box in Ireland.
Apple should have been paying tax on the earnings it made in each individual nation instead of making its non-US earnings disappear into a tax haven. Apple can say all it likes about paying tax according to local tax laws, but it did its best to hide earnings in each country by using basically a post box in Ireland.
They were using a construct specifically codified into Irish law to encourage multinational megacorps to build international headquarters there.
They did exactly what the law suggested they should do.
That law, of course, has long been changed, since it was found to unfairly advantage the Irish economy over the rest of Europe — which is why gains made in this way need to be paid back.
Apple should have been paying tax on the earnings it made in each individual nation instead of making its non-US earnings disappear into a tax haven. Apple can say all it likes about paying tax according to local tax laws, but it did its best to hide earnings in each country by using basically a post box in Ireland.
They were using a construct specifically codified into Irish law to encourage multinational megacorps to build international headquarters there.
They did exactly what the law suggested they should do.
That law, of course, has long been changed, since it was found to unfairly advantage the Irish economy over the rest of Europe — which is why gains made in this way need to be paid back.
QED.
Seems odd. If I’m reading this correctly, Ireland set up a law that encouraged large companies to build headquarters there and pay a lower tax on earnings. At a later date the law was deemed unfair to counties that aren’t Ireland so now any tax breaks Ireland gave out need to be undone and the companies need to pay up.
How is that different than being told, “Hey, we know you have been driving at this higher rate of speed through this area but now we feel that the posted limit is wrong and we lowered it so now you need to pay fines on what we feel the speed limit should have been all along”?
Apple should have been paying tax on the earnings it made in each individual nation instead of making its non-US earnings disappear into a tax haven. Apple can say all it likes about paying tax according to local tax laws, but it did its best to hide earnings in each country by using basically a post box in Ireland.
They were using a construct specifically codified into Irish law to encourage multinational megacorps to build international headquarters there.
They did exactly what the law suggested they should do.
That law, of course, has long been changed, since it was found to unfairly advantage the Irish economy over the rest of Europe — which is why gains made in this way need to be paid back.
QED.
Seems odd. If I’m reading this correctly, Ireland set up a law that encouraged large companies to build headquarters there and pay a lower tax on earnings. At a later date the law was deemed unfair to counties that aren’t Ireland so now any tax breaks Ireland gave out need to be undone and the companies need to pay up.
How is that different than being told, “Hey, we know you have been driving at this higher rate of speed through this area but now we feel that the posted limit is wrong and we lowered it so now you need to pay fines on what we feel the speed limit should have been all along”?
This was not about the tax rate available to every other Irish company. Yes that would be fair. This tax case had to do with a unique and undisclosed long-term corporate tax arrangement made with Apple's 2 subsidiaries, a deal NOT available to any other Irish company. Had the offer been open to anyone the lawsuit may never have happened.
I suppose the U.S. government could again try to get involved, filing a complaint of some sort, since that's where the money that Ireland will collect will ultimately effectively be coming from.
How is the money effectively coming from the US government and not from Apple?
Credit for foreign taxes paid. US is party to many tax treaties that prevent double taxation. Ergo, if Apple instead paid the US government when it repatriated a ton of overseas profits back when the US government gave businesses a favorable tax rate to do so, then Apple will get a tax credit on the $14b it now has to pay to Ireland. This will reduce its US taxes in the next tax year or years (until the credit is fully utilized). Thus it’s the US government that will take a hit for this decision.
Why does Apple get a tax credit on the $14b it has to pay to Ireland? The money was not repatriated; it's in escrow. These $14b are tax payable on overseas profits, which were never taxable by the US gov't in the first place. These extra $14b in local taxes do not affect Apple's US-taxable income, AFAICS.
Or am I missing something?
There's also a mismatch. They are paying $14B US in corporate tax to Ireland, but reporting a one-time tax obligation of $10B to the SEC. Is Apple referring to the same tax bill?
I admittedly am uninformed on the laws and the scheme you previously described, but if the money is owned by a separate "apple sales" corporation incorporated outside of the US then US taxes should have no role, right?
The part that i totally not understand: Essentially the EU ruled that Ireland is guilty of charging a too low tax rate. It certainly raked in all of the benefits (i.e. moving lot's of money through Ireland, without much costs to Ireland).
So as a punishment for Ireland it get's 13 Billion $.
Please EU can I be punished as well?
(Much fairer would have been that Ireland - not Apple - get's to pay 13 BiIllion$ to the rest of the EU member states)
This is not a punitive case. This is about people paying what they owe.
I have the same question - Apple paid what the Irish government said they owed, then the EU said the Irish government was wrong so Apple gets punished and Ireland gets a windfall. Since Apple Ireland was the party that erred it seems like they should be the party to get punished.
Apple should have been paying tax on the earnings it made in each individual nation instead of making its non-US earnings disappear into a tax haven. Apple can say all it likes about paying tax according to local tax laws, but it did its best to hide earnings in each country by using basically a post box in Ireland.
They were using a construct specifically codified into Irish law to encourage multinational megacorps to build international headquarters there.
They did exactly what the law suggested they should do.
That law, of course, has long been changed, since it was found to unfairly advantage the Irish economy over the rest of Europe — which is why gains made in this way need to be paid back.
QED.
Seems odd. If I’m reading this correctly, Ireland set up a law that encouraged large companies to build headquarters there and pay a lower tax on earnings. At a later date the law was deemed unfair to counties that aren’t Ireland so now any tax breaks Ireland gave out need to be undone and the companies need to pay up.
How is that different than being told, “Hey, we know you have been driving at this higher rate of speed through this area but now we feel that the posted limit is wrong and we lowered it so now you need to pay fines on what we feel the speed limit should have been all along”?
This was not about the tax rate available to every other Irish company. Yes that would be fair. This tax case had to do with a unique and undisclosed long-term corporate tax arrangement made with Apple's 2 subsidiaries, a deal NOT available to any other Irish company. Had the offer been open to anyone the lawsuit may never have happened.
@Spheric said it was a law and Apple did what the law suggested they do. You are saying it was a special deal that wasn’t available to other companies (didn’t you say Google figured it out first then Apple did it, too? Maybe that was another thread and a different topic). I’m not getting a clearer picture here and it’s always sorta difficult when there are lots of “Apple does no wrong!” people mixed with “Everything Apple does is wrong!” people.
Apple should have been paying tax on the earnings it made in each individual nation instead of making its non-US earnings disappear into a tax haven. Apple can say all it likes about paying tax according to local tax laws, but it did its best to hide earnings in each country by using basically a post box in Ireland.
They were using a construct specifically codified into Irish law to encourage multinational megacorps to build international headquarters there.
They did exactly what the law suggested they should do.
That law, of course, has long been changed, since it was found to unfairly advantage the Irish economy over the rest of Europe — which is why gains made in this way need to be paid back.
QED.
Seems odd. If I’m reading this correctly, Ireland set up a law that encouraged large companies to build headquarters there and pay a lower tax on earnings. At a later date the law was deemed unfair to counties that aren’t Ireland so now any tax breaks Ireland gave out need to be undone and the companies need to pay up.
How is that different than being told, “Hey, we know you have been driving at this higher rate of speed through this area but now we feel that the posted limit is wrong and we lowered it so now you need to pay fines on what we feel the speed limit should have been all along”?
This was not about the tax rate available to every other Irish company. Yes that would be fair. This tax case had to do with a unique and undisclosed long-term corporate tax arrangement made with Apple's 2 subsidiaries, a deal NOT available to any other Irish company. Had the offer been open to anyone the lawsuit may never have happened.
I’m not getting a clearer picture here and it’s always sorta difficult when there are lots of “Apple does no wrong!” people mixed with “Everything Apple does is wrong!” people.
You're lucky then that Spheric and I are neither one.
You could learn the facts the same as I did by spending as little as 30 minutes time researching using multiple sources. Then you can know for yourself.
Fan sites aren't always be best places to get all your information.
Apple should have been paying tax on the earnings it made in each individual nation instead of making its non-US earnings disappear into a tax haven. Apple can say all it likes about paying tax according to local tax laws, but it did its best to hide earnings in each country by using basically a post box in Ireland.
They were using a construct specifically codified into Irish law to encourage multinational megacorps to build international headquarters there.
They did exactly what the law suggested they should do.
That law, of course, has long been changed, since it was found to unfairly advantage the Irish economy over the rest of Europe — which is why gains made in this way need to be paid back.
QED.
Seems odd. If I’m reading this correctly, Ireland set up a law that encouraged large companies to build headquarters there and pay a lower tax on earnings. At a later date the law was deemed unfair to counties that aren’t Ireland so now any tax breaks Ireland gave out need to be undone and the companies need to pay up.
How is that different than being told, “Hey, we know you have been driving at this higher rate of speed through this area but now we feel that the posted limit is wrong and we lowered it so now you need to pay fines on what we feel the speed limit should have been all along”?
Pretty different. There was no issue with what Apple and Ireland did before the state aid rules were put in place, the issue is that nothing changed after.
It's like if there's a national speed limit of 100 kmph imposed when there was none before. A local authority has a public access road where they have previously said a local business can drive down it at 120 kmph and they don't update their arrangement after the new national limit applies. Both the business and the local authority should have been aware of the change, they both have enough lawyers. The national government takes action against the local business and says they have to pay a cumulative fine to the local authority for the offending period, even though the local authority doesn't really care and appreciates the business being in the area.
I mean it's not really like that since I don't think that would happen, but it's your analogy that I've tried to fix.
Comments
So as a punishment for Ireland it get's 13 Billion $.
Please EU can I be punished as well?
(Much fairer would have been that Ireland - not Apple - get's to pay 13 BiIllion$ to the rest of the EU member states)
The Eurobarometer system tracks how EU citizens see things and has years of surveys to pull data from.
You will find that, on the whole, EU citizens are happy being in the EU and support its goals.
In the case of Ireland specifically, I'd say you'd be hard pushed to scrape together a significant amount of people to vote to leave.
That said, years of high tech companies in and around Cork has led to locals feeling pushed out due to things like the cost of housing. On the other hand those companies provide job opportunities to the local population too.
You're never going to satisfy everyone but most EU citizens are perfectly happy with the EU.
Uncontrolled immigration cannot be stopped. Just ask Great Britain post-Brexit. So much for leaving the EU on the immigration card.
It doesn't matter if you have a wall or a sea. People will find a way.
The EU's support of Ireland has meant it has gone from one of the poorest countries in the bloc to one of the richest. It's a major success story, and the Irish are not going to jeopardise that by doing something so stupid like leave the EU. Only one country has ever been idiotic enough to do that, and they're knee deep in shit as a consequence.
QED.
You could learn the facts the same as I did by spending as little as 30 minutes time researching using multiple sources. Then you can know for yourself.
Fan sites aren't always be best places to get all your information.
It's like if there's a national speed limit of 100 kmph imposed when there was none before. A local authority has a public access road where they have previously said a local business can drive down it at 120 kmph and they don't update their arrangement after the new national limit applies. Both the business and the local authority should have been aware of the change, they both have enough lawyers. The national government takes action against the local business and says they have to pay a cumulative fine to the local authority for the offending period, even though the local authority doesn't really care and appreciates the business being in the area.
I mean it's not really like that since I don't think that would happen, but it's your analogy that I've tried to fix.