Therapists and psychologists arn't like Opera or Dr. Phil. It's not about "life-improvement" or "feeling better". It's helping you overcome the difficulties in your life. Once they're gone (one way or another), life becomes a whole lot better.
Being suicidal isn't normal. "Accepting" the fact that you are suicidal will just entrench your current mindset that life sucks. You need to get help, otherwise I may end up feeling sorry for you, your family and friends if you commit suicide, because it IS a waste of a good life that "could have been".
der kopf, you are right, my venom for this particular couple made me say hasty things that i guess i wouldn't share with other cases. it WAS from the hip, but christ if we removed all the "from the hip" posts, it'd just be grey boxes, foolish signatures and spj's whapita photos.
Therapists and psychologists arn't like Opera or Dr. Phil. It's not about "life-improvement" or "feeling better". It's helping you overcome the difficulties in your life. Once they're gone (one way or another), life becomes a whole lot better.
Hey, that sounds simple enough. I guess depression and suicide should have been "cured" since the 70's then. (I'd use the roll eyes smiley, but I don't want to "cross the line" and be completely rude) People think that since there are doctors and specialists for the condition, that must mean the condition is 100% curable. From my perspective, there is still a lot of hit'n'miss. It isn't down to a science like curing a bacterial infection. Sometimes it works, sometimes it does nothing. Aside from that, it does not and cannot (in its current state) even account for societal impacts and pressures, class stratifications, racial stratifications, socio-economic stratifications. Those elements alone can be considerable contributors to how someone ends up in a depressed state.
Quote:
Being suicidal isn't normal.
I think this is more of an assertion reinforced by "popular say", rather than something that has been logically substantiated. I think it is a bit pretentious to simply assume that the human condition is not capable of suicidal tendencies as a "normal" function, just because it isn't a particularly savory premise.
It entirely depends on the situation.
People think it isn't normal because they refuse to acknowledge that the "situations" exist.
Quote:
"Accepting" the fact that you are suicidal will just entrench your current mindset that life sucks.
I never meant to give the impression that I have "accepted" the fact of being suicidal. Like I said, I haven't scheduled it for any particular night. It is "OK" to think about it just as there is freedom of thought. I have accepted that I am terminally depressed, however. It is what it is. I've been through therapy, I've been through medication. None of that changes the impact of the station in life that I have. I'm not saying therapy and medication can't help others.
It is entirely dependent on the situation.
I don't feel that therapy and medication can invariably cure any depression just as you would not expect that rehabilitation can be effective or successful on any criminal.
It entirely depends on the situation, and if vehicles to recovery are even accessible.
Suicide is cowardly and crass and an action taken by people who are suicidally depressed. i don't know what Randycat's baggage is, but no one insulted HIM--he hasn't killed himself, so obviously we aren't talking about him.
If he did kill himself, and people heard about it, expect that in addition to sadness many would consider it the act of a coward. They are entirely entitled to this opinion, and it's not as if Randycat would care--if life is meaningless and he has extinguished yourself, he really isn't in a position to care or do anything about it, is he?
I think the attitude that most people exhibit toward the topic of suicide is crass and dismissive. That is something to be insulted by. It seems that people can only come up with derogatory explanations for why someone does it, rather than considering that possibly there was something very personal, very rationalized for the person that did it. It's like stepping back into the 50's where masturbation is publically condemned as evil, dirty, and unnatural by people who refuse to put any thought into the matter or foster any genuine understanding of the matter. All that matters, is that people are discouraged from doing it by any means necessary (including blatant propaganda).
That may be true that people don't like suicide, but it isn't going to change for a simple reason--the only people in a position to defend their choices are silent.
There's a substantial lobby behind assisted suicide for people who choose to end their lives, but if you are expecting people to endorse it, you've got an uphill battle. I think most people who have experiences the suicide of a friend or loved one are aware that it was a personal decision--it's pretty damn clear. It's true that some well-meaning do-gooders might say stupid things that they "hope will help" but are instead insipid, but that's because some people are stupid--understanding suicide better won't help that.
The connection you draw between masturbation and suicide is incredibly specious--and you neglect to mention that some people may have put a lot of thought into it and decided that suicide is wrong and unnatural...for some reason, quite a few more than those against masturbation.
Finally: the "masturbation makes you blind" story is an old wives' tale that is passed down through folklore. "Suicide sends you to hell" is mainstream Christian doctrine. Teenagers masturbate and think about suicide a lot, so it is easy to see how it might seem at that point that these two are interrealated (and we won't get into the sex and death thing), but they aren't directly tied to one another.
...and you neglect to mention that some people may have put a lot of thought into it and decided that suicide is wrong and unnatural...for some reason, quite a few more than those against masturbation.
...and that isn't a specious statement?
I'm sorry you are unable to see the similarities as to how the 2 are dealt with as public topics. Mind you, I'm citing how they are dealt with, not that the 2 are mentally associated in some way. Let's not go "strawman" here.
That, actually, is a joke. Why more people are against suicide than masturbation I'll leave as an exercise for the reader.
We can go your way--but all that does is make clear that people talk a lot more about masturbation now than they did in the 50's and they talk about suicide more openly, which makes sense--taboos are lower now than they were then.
However, even with more talking, there isn't a lot of pro-suicide support...I think the best you'll get is "well, it is your life, you selfish coward." masturbation, on the other hand, has a lot of active endorsers.
I propose that this is because people aren't against suicide becuase they are ill-informed and full of propaganda--I suggest that they may be well informed, and not approve of suicide because they think it is wrong.
Dictionary.com calls a coward, "One who shows ignoble fear in the face of danger or pain."
How is a person that commits suicide a coward? Honestly, I've had major issues since 9/11 of people saying that those who hijacked the planes were cowards. In what way was what they were doing a cowardly act? To THEM, it was noble. I don't see how it was a fearful thing for them to do. They obviously had NO problem with the danger. I'm not saying at all that their actions were acceptable, but they certainly weren't cowards.
How were the couple in the car cowards? They dressed up, had planned it out, and probably felt great pride in what they did because in that one moment they had control. Now I can see how some who die under these circumstances could be considered cowardly for not dealing with their problems, but I would think that once you've gotten to the point of ACTUALLY killing yourself that you feel like all your options have already been expended.
To me, it seems like people fling the word "coward" around when they have no other way to explain why someone did something morally objectionable under the guise of honor or selfishness.
"One who shows ignoble fear in the face of danger or pain."
Life is a long series of danger and pains--and refusal to confront that challenge by killing yourself rather than living through it can be labelled cowardice. You don't have to agree, but it isn't rocket science.
The 9/11 terrorists were terrorists--they were obviously trying to martyr themselves in the act or murdering others, so I don't think that has much to do with the flavor of suicide we had been discussing except to point out that there are some that don't emerge from depression.
It should also be a series of rewards, joys, and revelations. When that half is consistently unobtainable or witheld, how long do you confront the dangers and pains? What is the point, if you can only experience the negative half? Do you just do it for the sake of suffering just so others don't label you a coward? That's just bullshit- plain and simple. Choosing to not continue a futile battle (when it really is futile, that is) is simply a choice, not an indication of cowardice. True, it isn't rocket science, but there are 2 sides to the coin.
I'm all for searching and investigating the source of depressive elements with the aid of a therapist or psychologist, but I certainly don't believe that treatment is a certainty just because you do so. Some people have problems that are correctable, but for a few, things are simply what they are. Their choice of what to do in the matter should be respected, not casually demonized by those who don't fully understand the issues.
"Control" can be an illusion, too. Maybe you can just as easily do absolutely nothing to "control" something and yet you end up with the very same rewards you have now. That would be a consequence of simply being in the right place in the right time. Naturally, people want to believe that the rewards they benefit from are a direct result of things they have tried to "control". Does that make it true? Maybe, maybe not. The breakdown occurs when you realize that you don't have "control" over a certain situation. They aren't simply "weaker" or "inadequate" people compared to you for thinking this. They simply have made an observation based on their personal situation. That's why it is quite arrogant for someone who seemingly has "control" over everything to judge those who are experiencing "trouble" in strictly derrogative shades.
"Control" is an odd monster. Some people insist that they must have it when they can't, and others think they absolutely have it when they don't.
I honestly think that those considering suicide often "trick" themselves into thinking that they NEED control, and since they don't have it, that they are of lower worth. One thing that I think they should realize is that even though they never had control and never will, they don't need to have control. Life can go on just fine by learning from the bad and turning it around for doing whatever good possible.
Randycat, I must say that the "rewards, joys, and revelations" are often there, but those who are depressed have somehow become set in their minds that they aren't, and never will be. It goes back to control. I think if a depressed person thought they had control, they could MAKE the rewards, joys, and revelations for themselves. Most of the time, however, the rewards, joys, and revelations come in the little things of life. You just have to look around -- outside of the sadness.
No, you can't control a bird singing on the tree in your back yard. No, you cannot control a baby's cry sometimes. No, you cannot control that there is a chemical imbalance in your brain that makes you feel crummy most of the time. But think about the beautiful sound and freshness of the bird's chirping. Appreciate that you can HEAR the bird's chirp. Be amazed at the baby's crying, and all the complex life systems that came together to create that tiny being. Believe that you can make the best of your brain, and do what you can to feel good through the bad times. Feel grateful that you can seek medical help from a psychiatrist, medicine, and friends and family. In other countries, help wouldn't even be available, or you'd simply be locked away or officially outcast from society. The above are only examples, but I hope where I'm going with this.
No, you do not have control over a lot of things, but you CAN know the complexity, amazement, and wonder of life. Control the things you can, and learn to be okay with those that you can't. Most importantly, know which is which.
Comments
Being suicidal isn't normal. "Accepting" the fact that you are suicidal will just entrench your current mindset that life sucks. You need to get help, otherwise I may end up feeling sorry for you, your family and friends if you commit suicide, because it IS a waste of a good life that "could have been".
Peace,
Barto
Originally posted by superkarate monkeydeathcar
der kopf, you are right, my venom for this particular couple made me say hasty things that i guess i wouldn't share with other cases. it WAS from the hip, but christ if we removed all the "from the hip" posts, it'd just be grey boxes, foolish signatures and spj's whapita photos.
Originally posted by Barto
Therapists and psychologists arn't like Opera or Dr. Phil. It's not about "life-improvement" or "feeling better". It's helping you overcome the difficulties in your life. Once they're gone (one way or another), life becomes a whole lot better.
Hey, that sounds simple enough. I guess depression and suicide should have been "cured" since the 70's then. (I'd use the roll eyes smiley, but I don't want to "cross the line" and be completely rude) People think that since there are doctors and specialists for the condition, that must mean the condition is 100% curable. From my perspective, there is still a lot of hit'n'miss. It isn't down to a science like curing a bacterial infection. Sometimes it works, sometimes it does nothing. Aside from that, it does not and cannot (in its current state) even account for societal impacts and pressures, class stratifications, racial stratifications, socio-economic stratifications. Those elements alone can be considerable contributors to how someone ends up in a depressed state.
Quote:
Being suicidal isn't normal.
I think this is more of an assertion reinforced by "popular say", rather than something that has been logically substantiated. I think it is a bit pretentious to simply assume that the human condition is not capable of suicidal tendencies as a "normal" function, just because it isn't a particularly savory premise.
It entirely depends on the situation.
People think it isn't normal because they refuse to acknowledge that the "situations" exist.
Quote:
"Accepting" the fact that you are suicidal will just entrench your current mindset that life sucks.
I never meant to give the impression that I have "accepted" the fact of being suicidal. Like I said, I haven't scheduled it for any particular night. It is "OK" to think about it just as there is freedom of thought. I have accepted that I am terminally depressed, however. It is what it is. I've been through therapy, I've been through medication. None of that changes the impact of the station in life that I have. I'm not saying therapy and medication can't help others.
It is entirely dependent on the situation.
I don't feel that therapy and medication can invariably cure any depression just as you would not expect that rehabilitation can be effective or successful on any criminal.
It entirely depends on the situation, and if vehicles to recovery are even accessible.
If he did kill himself, and people heard about it, expect that in addition to sadness many would consider it the act of a coward. They are entirely entitled to this opinion, and it's not as if Randycat would care--if life is meaningless and he has extinguished yourself, he really isn't in a position to care or do anything about it, is he?
Example:
Masturbate ===> you will go blind
Commit suicide ===> you will go to Hell
Coincidental similarities? Hmmm...
It was a very sad story. I feel sorry for their children and unhappy that they couldn't find a better way. But I will leave it at that.
There's a substantial lobby behind assisted suicide for people who choose to end their lives, but if you are expecting people to endorse it, you've got an uphill battle. I think most people who have experiences the suicide of a friend or loved one are aware that it was a personal decision--it's pretty damn clear. It's true that some well-meaning do-gooders might say stupid things that they "hope will help" but are instead insipid, but that's because some people are stupid--understanding suicide better won't help that.
The connection you draw between masturbation and suicide is incredibly specious--and you neglect to mention that some people may have put a lot of thought into it and decided that suicide is wrong and unnatural...for some reason, quite a few more than those against masturbation.
Finally: the "masturbation makes you blind" story is an old wives' tale that is passed down through folklore. "Suicide sends you to hell" is mainstream Christian doctrine. Teenagers masturbate and think about suicide a lot, so it is easy to see how it might seem at that point that these two are interrealated (and we won't get into the sex and death thing), but they aren't directly tied to one another.
Originally posted by mrmister
...and you neglect to mention that some people may have put a lot of thought into it and decided that suicide is wrong and unnatural...for some reason, quite a few more than those against masturbation.
...and that isn't a specious statement?
I'm sorry you are unable to see the similarities as to how the 2 are dealt with as public topics. Mind you, I'm citing how they are dealt with, not that the 2 are mentally associated in some way. Let's not go "strawman" here.
We can go your way--but all that does is make clear that people talk a lot more about masturbation now than they did in the 50's and they talk about suicide more openly, which makes sense--taboos are lower now than they were then.
However, even with more talking, there isn't a lot of pro-suicide support...I think the best you'll get is "well, it is your life, you selfish coward." masturbation, on the other hand, has a lot of active endorsers.
I propose that this is because people aren't against suicide becuase they are ill-informed and full of propaganda--I suggest that they may be well informed, and not approve of suicide because they think it is wrong.
How is a person that commits suicide a coward? Honestly, I've had major issues since 9/11 of people saying that those who hijacked the planes were cowards. In what way was what they were doing a cowardly act? To THEM, it was noble. I don't see how it was a fearful thing for them to do. They obviously had NO problem with the danger. I'm not saying at all that their actions were acceptable, but they certainly weren't cowards.
How were the couple in the car cowards? They dressed up, had planned it out, and probably felt great pride in what they did because in that one moment they had control. Now I can see how some who die under these circumstances could be considered cowardly for not dealing with their problems, but I would think that once you've gotten to the point of ACTUALLY killing yourself that you feel like all your options have already been expended.
To me, it seems like people fling the word "coward" around when they have no other way to explain why someone did something morally objectionable under the guise of honor or selfishness.
"One who shows ignoble fear in the face of danger or pain."
Life is a long series of danger and pains--and refusal to confront that challenge by killing yourself rather than living through it can be labelled cowardice. You don't have to agree, but it isn't rocket science.
The 9/11 terrorists were terrorists--they were obviously trying to martyr themselves in the act or murdering others, so I don't think that has much to do with the flavor of suicide we had been discussing except to point out that there are some that don't emerge from depression.
Originally posted by mrmister
Life is a long series of danger and pains...
It should also be a series of rewards, joys, and revelations. When that half is consistently unobtainable or witheld, how long do you confront the dangers and pains? What is the point, if you can only experience the negative half? Do you just do it for the sake of suffering just so others don't label you a coward? That's just bullshit- plain and simple. Choosing to not continue a futile battle (when it really is futile, that is) is simply a choice, not an indication of cowardice. True, it isn't rocket science, but there are 2 sides to the coin.
I'm all for searching and investigating the source of depressive elements with the aid of a therapist or psychologist, but I certainly don't believe that treatment is a certainty just because you do so. Some people have problems that are correctable, but for a few, things are simply what they are. Their choice of what to do in the matter should be respected, not casually demonized by those who don't fully understand the issues.
Originally posted by Randycat99
It should also be a series of rewards, joys, and revelations. When that half is consistently unobtainable or witheld,
...
What a concept that "rewards, joys, and revelations" can be "unobtainable or witheld".
Originally posted by Randycat99
If you are in disbelief that it could ever happen, then obviously you have never experienced it. Pray you never do.
No I just think that I am in more control of my own joy and happiness than anyone else is.
I honestly think that those considering suicide often "trick" themselves into thinking that they NEED control, and since they don't have it, that they are of lower worth. One thing that I think they should realize is that even though they never had control and never will, they don't need to have control. Life can go on just fine by learning from the bad and turning it around for doing whatever good possible.
Randycat, I must say that the "rewards, joys, and revelations" are often there, but those who are depressed have somehow become set in their minds that they aren't, and never will be. It goes back to control. I think if a depressed person thought they had control, they could MAKE the rewards, joys, and revelations for themselves. Most of the time, however, the rewards, joys, and revelations come in the little things of life. You just have to look around -- outside of the sadness.
No, you can't control a bird singing on the tree in your back yard. No, you cannot control a baby's cry sometimes. No, you cannot control that there is a chemical imbalance in your brain that makes you feel crummy most of the time. But think about the beautiful sound and freshness of the bird's chirping. Appreciate that you can HEAR the bird's chirp. Be amazed at the baby's crying, and all the complex life systems that came together to create that tiny being. Believe that you can make the best of your brain, and do what you can to feel good through the bad times. Feel grateful that you can seek medical help from a psychiatrist, medicine, and friends and family. In other countries, help wouldn't even be available, or you'd simply be locked away or officially outcast from society. The above are only examples, but I hope where I'm going with this.
No, you do not have control over a lot of things, but you CAN know the complexity, amazement, and wonder of life. Control the things you can, and learn to be okay with those that you can't. Most importantly, know which is which.