Disappointed at Apple (Why Apple Will Never Win Over Offices)

Posted:
in General Discussion edited January 2014
Our small office (25 comps) recently got a new PowerMac and are running OS X Server on it. Based on the propaganda that you read at apple.com you can see that the server runs is ultra stable, ultra secure, and the best server option for your company. I thought this would prove to be accurate, yet I was sorely disappointed when after a week of operation I would see a kernel panic every day. Kernel Panics occur on machines that are weaker than ours that run more robust programs than us at a maximum of 2 every year. My powerbook have 1 kernel panic in the year I have owned it so far.



I called Apple. No clue. They tell me to reformat the hard drive - zero it. Okay, everything is gone, so I begin reinstallation. Kernel Panic. Reboot. Kernel Panic. Installed Jaguar (Finally!). Update system (a requirement to Install OS X Server on the new Firewire 800 PowerMacs) and I get another Kernel Panic. I call Apple again. Go through regular service routine.



Then I'm told that it must be a hardware problem (that I agree on) and to send it to the nearest Apple Certified Technician. Okay. He also has no idea what to do.



In the meantime I go back to the office, pick an old and ignored pc box sitting on the side, head over to redhat.com and download linux - I install it set it up and within 1.5 hours its playing nice. Mac will be ready in 3 days - seems Apple isn't able to overnight parts anymore.







MY POINT: To say the least, Im disappointed in Apple, mainly as a server - my personal PowerBook gets top marks. As a true office machine I really don't see how it will EVER EVER EVER EVER succeed on the market when I can build/buy a $700 PC, load Red Hat or some other Linux variant, get open office in installation, get great performance, and have READILY AVAILABLE PARTS at any local computer store anywhere in the nation!



While I enjoy using a mac, I think that beyond hobbyists, the graphic community, and perhaps some other obscure fields the future of Apple is pretty bleak in terms of computer hardware sales. Doesn't everyone agree that Apple is entirely too exclusive? Why isn't Jaguar available as a free download like other open source Operating Systems? I love the machines apple designs but 20 iMacs in an office cost a hell of a lot more and some may still need VPC in order to run specialty software. Apple is in between Microsoft and Open Source. It retains its exclusivity in all of its hardware and my selling their OS and it really makes it impossible for Apple to have any future in an Office.



Its a nice machine to have, and there is some value there but I think that Apple's magic goes just that far. Maybe I'm just venting because my overpriced behemoth of a G4 tower is screwed up but I really think that Apple at its peak will not go above 10% market share. Though I know I will always love apple for their awesome innovation and pushing new standards.



What do you guys think?
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 22
    placeboplacebo Posts: 5,767member
    Instead of cramming Jaguar and a bunch of administration tools in a package, Apple should design a server OS from the ground up. Maybe a Mac Server is a lost cause, and there's no real point to reclaim that market. Apple should go back to the way it always was: a creative company pitching to a creative market, not to the business market.



    As for free Jaguar: although Darwin is open source, that doesn't mean that distros will necessarily be free.
  • Reply 2 of 22
    I know a friend who is still trying to get the powermac he bought in June fixed (he's still using a loner from the shop}



    Until Apple get's it's customer care in order, it can forget about business. Dell will ship you a brand new machine the next day if your machine comes broken ... and it doesn't even have to be DOA. It's just not right for someone to be kept in limbo for months after they've paid $2500 for a machine.



    Should get interesting though, my friends' wife is going to take Apple Canada to small claims court if it comes back again (9th time) and still doesn't work.
  • Reply 3 of 22
    buonrottobuonrotto Posts: 6,368member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Placebo

    Instead of cramming Jaguar and a bunch of administration tools in a package, Apple should design a server OS from the ground up.



    It wouldn't make sense to build a new OS from the ground up when your existing foundation is BSD unix. BSD is arguably the best server OS out there, and both client and server use it. The problem might be in some specific configuration of the BSD/Mach core, but the right pieces are in place. Apple has probably tweaked the BSD core of OS X Server anyway for the task. Maybe they need to do some more tweaking?
  • Reply 4 of 22
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,438member
    Rule number one.



    "You don't talk about Appleinsider" Ooops



    "never post while being angry or frustrated"



    Quote:

    MY POINT: To say the least, Im disappointed in Apple, mainly as a server - my personal PowerBook gets top marks. As a true office machine I really don't see how it will EVER EVER EVER EVER succeed on the market when I can build/buy a $700 PC, load Red Hat or some other Linux variant, get open office in installation, get great performance, and have READILY AVAILABLE PARTS at any local computer store anywhere in the nation!



    First big mistake was to run OSX Server on a Powermac. Apple designed the Xserve for your needs. However with that in mind Powermacs should work fine but you can run into issues still. Cheap $700 linux boxen may or may not work. No one can base anything off of your one experience or we'd have many more negative reviews.



    Quote:

    While I enjoy using a mac, I think that beyond hobbyists, the graphic community, and perhaps some other obscure fields the future of Apple is pretty bleak in terms of computer hardware sales. Doesn't everyone agree that Apple is entirely too exclusive? Why isn't Jaguar available as a free download like other open source Operating Systems? I love the machines apple designs but 20 iMacs in an office cost a hell of a lot more and some may still need VPC in order to run specialty software. Apple is in between Microsoft and Open Source. It retains its exclusivity in all of its hardware and my selling their OS and it really makes it impossible for Apple to have any future in an Office.



    No the future of Apple is far from bleak. I think your ego took a little blow from the embarrasment. Relax and remember it's an anomaly. Apple is not too exclusive. The like of recent viruses or problems make me thankful that Apple is exclusionary to a point. Your frustration is akin to the frustration I had trying to put Win2k Server on a Asus Mobo system and watching the OS freak. Never found a fix..installed XP and i'm still disgruntled. Jaguar is not Open Source. It still licenses probably hundreds of components from Adobe to Sorenson. Who cares if the iMacs cost more than PC. TCO factors in more than initial purchase. Whoever administered your Netword didn't have to worry about Msblast saving you money that you don't even realize. Nothing is impossible. You're making statements you can't hope to backup. Relax...sleep on it and regain your bearings man. You sound shaken.



    Quote:

    ts a nice machine to have, and there is some value there but I think that Apple's magic goes just that far. Maybe I'm just venting because my overpriced behemoth of a G4 tower is screwed up but I really think that Apple at its peak will not go above 10% market share. Though I know I will always love apple for their awesome innovation and pushing new standards.



    What do you guys think?



    Sleep. Get some rest and attack tomorrow with vigor. Stop sounding like a defeatist.





    Quote:

    nstead of cramming Jaguar and a bunch of administration tools in a package, Apple should design a server OS from the ground up. Maybe a Mac Server is a lost cause, and there's no real point to reclaim that market. Apple should go back to the way it always was: a creative company pitching to a creative market, not to the business market.



    As for free Jaguar: although Darwin is open source, that doesn't mean that distros will necessarily be free.



    <sigh> Haven't you noticed that the reports you hear from seeding are Panther? Panther Server IS developed with being a Server from the start. They of course share the same infrasture but so does Windows. The Mac server isn't a lost cause. When your companies 60 thousand Unix servers crash for two days and your data is corruped even though it's mirrored then come talk to me about lost causes. The company I worked for lost millions in this crash. It happens to everyone. The business market is where the growth will be for Apple. Boys and girls the word for today is "Redundancy" no you know why the Enteprise is paranoid.



    Quote:

    Until Apple get's it's customer care in order, it can forget about business. Dell will ship you a brand new machine the next day if your machine comes broken ... and it doesn't even have to be DOA. It's just not right for someone to be kept in limbo for months after they've paid $2500 for a machine.



    Customer Care??? You don't buy a Server OS and call regular support for Tech Support.



    http://www.apple.com/server/macosx/support.html



    Apple has never promised anything above regular Tech Support for those that don't have extended coverage. Folks this is where the money is. Not the hardware but the support package. Blaming Apple is like a Nascar driver blaming the local Old Dealer for being slow with the parts.
  • Reply 5 of 22
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Shanksta





    I called Apple. No clue. They tell me to reformat the hard drive - zero it. Okay, everything is gone, so I begin reinstallation. Kernel Panic. Reboot. Kernel Panic. Installed Jaguar (Finally!). Update system (a requirement to Install OS X Server on the new Firewire 800 PowerMacs) and I get another Kernel Panic. I call Apple again. Go through regular service routine.







    Turn off the machine. Reset the PMU. It's a button on the motherboard labeled "PMU RESET". On my G4 it's near the CD-ROM cable. Then re-seat the RAM. Many hardware related panics can be fixed by doing one of these two things.



    " target="_blank">http://docs.info.apple.com/article.h...um=95037<br />
  • Reply 6 of 22
    Quote:

    Originally posted by hmurchison

    First big mistake was to run OSX Server on a Powermac. Apple designed the Xserve for your needs. However with that in mind Powermacs should work fine but you can run into issues still. Cheap $700 linux boxen may or may not work. No one can base anything off of your one experience or we'd have many more negative reviews.



    OSX Server - "REQUIREMENTS: .... POWERMAC G3 OR G4, iMAC, OR eMAC COMPUTER" . Read the box. I should be able to run OSX Server on any G4 desktop machine flawlessly, especially when most people at the Apple discussions board recommended a PowerMac for those who dont have any rack setup and a limited number of client machines. Im sorry, but its not valid to say "XServe was designed for you" when Apple puts that ANY desktop will run it.



    And when the issue is all hardware, tech support is the same no matter what, unless you want to shell out an exorbitant amount of cash for "advanced tech support". AppleCare should take care of the hardware issue for this normal machine.
  • Reply 7 of 22
    edit: *no point*
  • Reply 8 of 22
    jlljll Posts: 2,713member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Shanksta

    Then I'm told that it must be a hardware problem (that I agree on) and to send it to the nearest Apple Certified Technician. Okay. He also has no idea what to do.



    In the meantime I go back to the office, pick an old and ignored pc box sitting on the side, head over to redhat.com and download linux - I install it set it up and within 1.5 hours its playing nice. Mac will be ready in 3 days - seems Apple isn't able to overnight parts anymore.



    MY POINT: To say the least, Im disappointed in Apple, mainly as a server - my personal PowerBook gets top marks. As a true office machine I really don't see how it will EVER EVER EVER EVER succeed on the market when I can build/buy a $700 PC, load Red Hat or some other Linux variant, get open office in installation, get great performance, and have READILY AVAILABLE PARTS at any local computer store anywhere in the nation!




    1. Your ignored pc box could just as well have had hardware errors.



    2. Did you check your RAM?



    3. A Power Mac is not a server



    4. Apple is not trying to compete with home build $700 towers acting as servers - with the Xserve they are trying to compete with real servers.
  • Reply 9 of 22
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,438member
    Shanksta. Yes it will run. And you were fine running it on a Powermac. Where you took perhaps an unecessary risk is not having any sort of redundancy. From your post I surmise that you believe Apple's hardware should be failsafe. When the facts are Servers that cost magnitudes more can fail. I can hardly blame Apple for having an issue with your Powermac any more than Intel or IBM should one of their computers have an hardware issue.



    I worked for an ISP Where Redbacks used to destruct after heavy uses and thats one hell of an expensive piece of hardware.



    No Hardware Tech support is not the same. There's a reason why Service Packs are sold for Servers. 4 hr response, parts and more are available. It's totally different. I realize that your company might not be able to afford this extra service but your post makes it seem like you "would" get that support from PC based servers and that's just not true.



    Doing Corporate Sales I used to see things like this happen all the time. A company would base their whole network on a $150 Consumer Router. They didn't think about what happens should that Router fail(Many requested immediate replacement but that just doesn't happen with products of this price range).



    I guess the point really is every company needs some sort of failsafing of their network. I'm sorry that you had these problems but perhaps now you can pitch some network upgrades to the network.



    Contrary to your opinion many see Apple having substantial growth in Business. Panther Server and G5 hardware will only extend that further.
  • Reply 10 of 22
    jlljll Posts: 2,713member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Placebo

    Instead of cramming Jaguar and a bunch of administration tools in a package, Apple should design a server OS from the ground up.



    [sarcasm]I can see that you know much about Mac OS X Server[/sarcasm]



    If Unix/Linux/BSD aren't server OS' I don't know what is.
  • Reply 11 of 22
    Quote:

    [i]



    Customer Care??? You don't buy a Server OS and call regular support for Tech Support.



    http://www.apple.com/server/macosx/support.html



    Apple has never promised anything above regular Tech Support for those that don't have extended coverage. [/B]



    I'm talking about regular people buying regular machines ... having to wait months until Apple figures out whats wrong with it is not right. You hear about this happening WAY to often.
  • Reply 12 of 22
    for office use server side....



    forget apple... get a small sun box..their service

    is excellent & they hardware even more so..
  • Reply 13 of 22
    jlljll Posts: 2,713member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by the cool gut

    I'm talking about regular people buying regular machines ... having to wait months until Apple figures out whats wrong with it is not right. You hear about this happening WAY to often.



    Yes, but people getting their machines after three days usually don't post about it.



    In a recent report Apple was no. 1 regarding customer care.



    In the same report, it was told that Dell had a 28% fault rate - ouch.
  • Reply 14 of 22
    Quote:

    Originally posted by JLL

    Yes, but people getting their machines after three days usually don't post about it.



    In a recent report Apple was no. 1 regarding customer care.



    In the same report, it was told that Dell had a 28% fault rate - ouch.




    I agree with the above statements ... however there is still much to be improved in regards to Apple fixing their machines which are DOA . Regardless of Dell's poor fault rate ... they more than make up for it by shipping out a new kit ASAP.
  • Reply 15 of 22
    applenutapplenut Posts: 5,768member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by hmurchison

    Shanksta. Yes it will run. And you were fine running it on a Powermac. Where you took perhaps an unecessary risk is not having any sort of redundancy. From your post I surmise that you believe Apple's hardware should be failsafe. When the facts are Servers that cost magnitudes more can fail. I can hardly blame Apple for having an issue with your Powermac any more than Intel or IBM should one of their computers have an hardware issue.



    Apple did sell powermacs with redundant power supplies a year ago or so
  • Reply 16 of 22
    jlljll Posts: 2,713member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by applenut

    Apple did sell powermacs with redundant power supplies a year ago or so



  • Reply 17 of 22
    jlljll Posts: 2,713member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by the cool gut

    however there is still much to be improved in regards to Apple fixing their machines which are DOA .



    AFAIK Apple will ship you a new machine if it's DOA and you report it within 14 days (at least here in Denmark).
  • Reply 18 of 22
    Running 10.1 Server on a PowerMac G4 500 for our very small business. Runs like a champ. Never goes down. Never kernel panics. Very solid and stable.



    That being said, Macs are not magically perfect pieces of hardware. They are very complex pieces of machinery, and yes, sometimes things go wrong. I had a PowerBook that was a lemon from the day we bought it. Kernel panicked every few hours, then every few minutes. Sent it back to Apple and they replaced the entire motherboard. The machine is a workhorse now (it's what I'm posting this on). While I was chapped at the inconvenience, I was pleased with my AppleCare experience.



    I'm not trying to be an apologist here. You have every right to be upset that your PowerMac is unstable, but give Apple a chance to make it right for you. Personally, the joys of OS X outweigh the pain of a (rare) piece of bad hardware.



    Just my 2¢.
  • Reply 19 of 22
    Our college graphics department was running on 2 G4 servers with OSX Server. Supporting some 1600 students.

    No problems.

    We have recently installed 2 XServes to replace them. Used Carbon Copy Cloner to dupe the drives, ran the XServe install CDs over the old systems and we are back up. Total time to convert over 2 hours (Damn CCC is slow).

    No problems at all with kernel panics.

    Check your ram and other various system issues.
  • Reply 20 of 22
    ijerryijerry Posts: 615member
    Just to chime in on the Apple customer service issue. I had a clicking noise in my FP iMac and a question mark on my screen, I also could not use target mode, or anything for that matter. I called up Applecare, and they said it was a hardware issue. I live in cheyenne, WY. And they sent a guy to my house the next day to replace the logic board and the Harddrive. That is awesome service!! 24 hour downtime from something that could have been caused by any number of things, much less something that was Apple's fault. I think how you get treated is all in how you act on the phone, it does not make any sense for Apple to take its time to take care of customers.
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