I am glad you are here to be the one to tell me that Shawn. You and Dean are just genius... genius...
I think we will all see how this thing plays out in the following months.
Fellows
Well I can't take all the credit myself. Dean and his staff created the strategy (which looks an awful lot like Clinton's "triangulation"). Midwinter alerted me to what was going on. All I did was see you do the exact thing that he predicted. It was nothing really...
Not so. It's simply not on the table for a northeastern, highly secular liberal like Dean. (The "highly secular" part is probably what hurts him the most.) Dems have won post-Nixon with southerners like Carter and Clinton. And they almost won with Gore.
As for the recent election, Mississippi doesn't mean much as a predictor but Kentucky sure does. Kentucky is a swing state that's trending sharply away from the Dems.
Finally, the flap over Dean's recent comments re: the Confederate flag highlights his weakness. It was a risky move but I applaud him for trying to reach out to voters who think differently from him (especially because he did it so poorly ). And I don't fault him for the stereotype he employed. Stereotypes, after all, are stereotypes because they are, in part, true. The problem is: Dean doesn't seem to have much of an understanding of the south beyond the stereotype. He's not going to win any votes from people who believe he doesn't have a clue about who they are.
The problem is: Dean doesn't seem to have much of an understanding of the south beyond the stereotype
You see, your remarks are just what midwinter was getting at before. You're assuming that "basing votes on race, guns, God, and gays" is bad and you're speaking out against it. Paradoxically (and ironically), YOU'RE the one who is truly offending southerners here. Isn't it ingenious how that works out? Meanwhile, Dean is reaching out to southern conservatives with promises to improve education and health care. This looks pretty good for Dean to me...
EDIT: Even though Dean obviously thinks "basing votes on race, guns, God, and gays" is bad, he's reaching out to southern conservatives with an alternative. He's building a bridge in your own words. Can you not see this?
The flipside of that argument you present is that Dean is assuming that conservative southerners ONLY base their votes on race, guns, god, and gays. It is a stereotypical assumption. I will not comment on whether or not he is correct or not in using it. I am simply providing the other side of the coin that you REFUSE with all your might to see.
The flipside of that argument you present is that Dean is assuming that conservative southerners ONLY base their votes on race, guns, god, and gays. It is a stereotypical assumption. I will not comment on whether or not he is correct or not in using it. I am simply providing the other side of the coin that you REFUSE with all your might to see.
No, he is assuming that conservative southerners GENERALLY base their votes on race, guns, god, and gays.
The flipside of that argument you present is that Dean is assuming that conservative southerners ONLY base their votes on race, guns, god, and gays. It is a stereotypical assumption. I will not comment on whether or not he is correct or not in using it. I am simply providing the other side of the coin that you REFUSE with all your might to see.
Originally posted by zaphod_beeblebrox
The problem is: Dean doesn't seem to have much of an understanding of the south beyond the stereotype
Indeed BR and zaphod_beeblebrox.
BR Thanks. People like Dean and Shawn should say nothing if they are ignorant about what it is they say about a group.
It was not very clever from this man to insult the entire south on a very sensitive subject ( a huge stereotype).
I remember when i started my surgeon's studies, that a professor says to me during a morning debriefing (i had problems to find some Xray radios) " are all people coming from the south are slow ? " i was very angry and even if i knew that i could face deep troubles for answering, i replied (don't remember what, i did not sleep the whole night so i was very tired).
If he simply yelled at me : you are damn slow, it will have been OK. But insulting the part of France where i came from hurted me. I came from Grenoble, a more active town than Angers, with scientist research, with the Synchrotron ..; and the Crolles fab.
It was weird, when i lived in Grenoble i never considered that i was living in the south.
This little story, is just to point out that it was a very bad move from a politician. Even if there is some truth in it (i don't live in US to have any appreciation about this), stereotypes insult of an entire region is the worst thing to do for a politician, especially for one who want to run the presidency.
It was not very clever from this man to insult the entire south on a very sensitive subject ( a huge stereotype).
I remember when i started my surgeon's studies, that a professor says to me during a morning debriefing (i had problems to find some Xray radios) " are all people coming from the south are slow ? " i was very angry and even if i knew that i could face deep troubles for answering, i replied (don't remember what, i did not sleep the whole night so i was very tired).
If he simply yelled at me : you are damn slow, it will have been OK. But insulting the part of France where i came from hurted me. I came from Grenoble, a more active town than Angers, with scientist research, with the Synchrotron ..; and the Crolles fab.
It was weird, when i lived in Grenoble i never considered that i was living in the south.
This little story, is just to point out that it was a very bad move from a politician. Even if there is some truth in it (i don't live in US to have any appreciation about this), stereotypes insult of an entire region is the worst thing to do for a politician, especially for one who want to run the presidency.
Powerdoc I have the most absolute respect for you. Let me give another example.
People in the US make stereotypes about the people of France. They say that people in France are rude.
This kind of thing is hateful, and not productive. When I visit Paris I found the other is true.
It was not very clever from this man to insult the entire south on a very sensitive subject ( a huge stereotype).
I remember when i started my surgeon's studies, that a professor says to me during a morning debriefing (i had problems to find some Xray radios) " are all people coming from the south are slow ? " i was very angry and even if i knew that i could face deep troubles for answering, i replied (don't remember what, i did not sleep the whole night so i was very tired).
If he simply yelled at me : you are damn slow, it will have been OK. But insulting the part of France where i came from hurted me. I came from Grenoble, a more active town than Angers, with scientist research, with the Synchrotron ..; and the Crolles fab.
It was weird, when i lived in Grenoble i never considered that i was living in the south.
This little story, is just to point out that it was a very bad move from a politician. Even if there is some truth in it (i don't live in US to have any appreciation about this), stereotypes insult of an entire region is the worst thing to do for a politician, especially for one who want to run the presidency.
Depends on how you think Dean insults them. I think he clearly does, but mildly, because he's explicitly saying that the group's voting habits for the past 30 years are wrong. Are we not allowed to comment on the general voting habits of a particular group of people anymore? Because I think it's true that southerners tend to base their votes on race, guns, God, and gays. If that's not true, someone speak up please.
Are we not allowed to comment on the general voting habits of a particular group of people anymore? Because I think it's true that southerners tend to base their votes on race, guns, God, and gays. If that's not true, someone speak up please.
Powerdoc I have the most absolute respect for you. Let me give another example.
People in the US make stereotypes about the people of France. They say that people in France are rude.
This kind of thing is hateful, and not productive. When I visit Paris I found the other is true.
With the highest respect,
Fellows
So southerners generally don't base their votes on race, guns, God, or gays. They vote for better education and health care first and foremost, right!?
Depends on how you think Dean insults them. I think he clearly does, but mildly, because he's explicitly saying that the group's voting habits for the past 30 years are wrong. Are we not allowed to comment on the general voting habits of a particular group of people anymore? Because I think it's true that southerners tend to base their votes on race, guns, God, and gays. If that's not true, someone speak up please.
It's called tact SPJ. Dean did not have it in this case. Could you at least agree to that?
So southerners generally don't base their votes on race, guns, God, or gays. They vote for better education and health care first and foremost, right!?
You know what the stereotype is. You are doing a very good job repeating it. Produce a study that confirms the validity of such a stereotype and you can keep shouting that is what southerners do. Until then, you are being culturally insensitive.
Even if you do find a study confirming the stereotype, Dean still lacked tact.
It's called tact SPJ. Dean did not have it in this case. Could you at least agree to that?
Sure. That's a good way to describe Dean sometimes. He's not always tactful, hence his straight-talk reputation (or myth). I certainly agreed that he insults southerners but I qualify the insult as only mild. Like I explained before, the insult is in telling southerners that 30 or 40 years of voting habits are wrong, not in saying that southerners generally base their votes on race, guns, God, and gays. I think that's generally a true statement. Wouldn't you think?
You know what the stereotype is. You are doing a very good job repeating it. Produce a study that confirms the validity of such a stereotype and you can keep shouting that is what southerners do. Until then, you are being culturally insensitive.
Even if you do find a study confirming the stereotype, Dean still lacked tact.
Well, I suppose I might then. Where can I find data on the voting habits of southerners, anyone?
Well, I suppose I might then. Where can I find data on the voting habits of southerners, anyone?
I'll empower you by allowing you to find the information yourself so that you can fully take credit for any success or failure. That is true empowerment.
It was not very clever from this man to insult the entire south on a very sensitive subject ( a huge stereotype).
I remember when i started my surgeon's studies, that a professor says to me during a morning debriefing (i had problems to find some Xray radios) " are all people coming from the south are slow ? " i was very angry and even if i knew that i could face deep troubles for answering, i replied (don't remember what, i did not sleep the whole night so i was very tired).
If he simply yelled at me : you are damn slow, it will have been OK. But insulting the part of France where i came from hurted me. I came from Grenoble, a more active town than Angers, with scientist research, with the Synchrotron ..; and the Crolles fab.
It was weird, when i lived in Grenoble i never considered that i was living in the south.
This little story, is just to point out that it was a very bad move from a politician. Even if there is some truth in it (i don't live in US to have any appreciation about this), stereotypes insult of an entire region is the worst thing to do for a politician, especially for one who want to run the presidency.
You're NOT trying. That's the problem. All you have to do is look at every presidential election for the past 30 years to see that northern Dems have a problem there whereas the southern Dems that ran had some success. It's plain as day.
So southerners generally don't base their votes on race, guns, God, or gays. They vote for better education and health care first and foremost, right!?
I think you're all missing Dean's point. He doesn't say anything about race, guns, God or gays. He's talking about the issues they should vote on but don't vote on, not the issues they do vote on that they shouldn't vote on.
People in this thread seem to be reversing the implications of his statement most likely because they want to see Dean fail. You're putting words in his mouth because you want to believe he's wrong.
The truth is, he's right. Economically speaking poor southerners would most likely be better off voting for a Democrat.
Comments
Originally posted by ShawnJ
You see, YOU'RE the one who is truly offending southerners here.
I am glad you are here to be the one to tell me that Shawn. You and Dean are just genius... genius...
I think we will all see how this thing plays out in the following months.
Fellows
Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook
I am glad you are here to be the one to tell me that Shawn. You and Dean are just genius... genius...
I think we will all see how this thing plays out in the following months.
Fellows
Well I can't take all the credit myself. Dean and his staff created the strategy (which looks an awful lot like Clinton's "triangulation"). Midwinter alerted me to what was going on. All I did was see you do the exact thing that he predicted. It was nothing really...
Originally posted by zaphod_beeblebrox
Not so. It's simply not on the table for a northeastern, highly secular liberal like Dean. (The "highly secular" part is probably what hurts him the most.) Dems have won post-Nixon with southerners like Carter and Clinton. And they almost won with Gore.
As for the recent election, Mississippi doesn't mean much as a predictor but Kentucky sure does. Kentucky is a swing state that's trending sharply away from the Dems.
Finally, the flap over Dean's recent comments re: the Confederate flag highlights his weakness. It was a risky move but I applaud him for trying to reach out to voters who think differently from him (especially because he did it so poorly
The problem is: Dean doesn't seem to have much of an understanding of the south beyond the stereotype
This is where I stand on the matter.
Fellows
Originally posted by ShawnJ
You see, your remarks are just what midwinter was getting at before. You're assuming that "basing votes on race, guns, God, and gays" is bad and you're speaking out against it. Paradoxically (and ironically), YOU'RE the one who is truly offending southerners here. Isn't it ingenious how that works out? Meanwhile, Dean is reaching out to southern conservatives with promises to improve education and health care. This looks pretty good for Dean to me...
EDIT: Even though Dean obviously thinks "basing votes on race, guns, God, and gays" is bad, he's reaching out to southern conservatives with an alternative. He's building a bridge in your own words. Can you not see this?
The flipside of that argument you present is that Dean is assuming that conservative southerners ONLY base their votes on race, guns, god, and gays. It is a stereotypical assumption. I will not comment on whether or not he is correct or not in using it. I am simply providing the other side of the coin that you REFUSE with all your might to see.
Originally posted by BR
The flipside of that argument you present is that Dean is assuming that conservative southerners ONLY base their votes on race, guns, god, and gays. It is a stereotypical assumption. I will not comment on whether or not he is correct or not in using it. I am simply providing the other side of the coin that you REFUSE with all your might to see.
No, he is assuming that conservative southerners GENERALLY base their votes on race, guns, god, and gays.
Originally posted by BR
The flipside of that argument you present is that Dean is assuming that conservative southerners ONLY base their votes on race, guns, god, and gays. It is a stereotypical assumption. I will not comment on whether or not he is correct or not in using it. I am simply providing the other side of the coin that you REFUSE with all your might to see.
Originally posted by zaphod_beeblebrox
The problem is: Dean doesn't seem to have much of an understanding of the south beyond the stereotype
Indeed BR and zaphod_beeblebrox.
BR Thanks. People like Dean and Shawn should say nothing if they are ignorant about what it is they say about a group.
It really is that simple.
Fellowship
I remember when i started my surgeon's studies, that a professor says to me during a morning debriefing (i had problems to find some Xray radios) " are all people coming from the south are slow ? " i was very angry and even if i knew that i could face deep troubles for answering, i replied (don't remember what, i did not sleep the whole night so i was very tired).
If he simply yelled at me : you are damn slow, it will have been OK. But insulting the part of France where i came from hurted me. I came from Grenoble, a more active town than Angers, with scientist research, with the Synchrotron ..; and the Crolles fab.
It was weird, when i lived in Grenoble i never considered that i was living in the south.
This little story, is just to point out that it was a very bad move from a politician. Even if there is some truth in it (i don't live in US to have any appreciation about this), stereotypes insult of an entire region is the worst thing to do for a politician, especially for one who want to run the presidency.
Originally posted by Powerdoc
It was not very clever from this man to insult the entire south on a very sensitive subject ( a huge stereotype).
I remember when i started my surgeon's studies, that a professor says to me during a morning debriefing (i had problems to find some Xray radios) " are all people coming from the south are slow ? " i was very angry and even if i knew that i could face deep troubles for answering, i replied (don't remember what, i did not sleep the whole night so i was very tired).
If he simply yelled at me : you are damn slow, it will have been OK. But insulting the part of France where i came from hurted me. I came from Grenoble, a more active town than Angers, with scientist research, with the Synchrotron ..; and the Crolles fab.
It was weird, when i lived in Grenoble i never considered that i was living in the south.
This little story, is just to point out that it was a very bad move from a politician. Even if there is some truth in it (i don't live in US to have any appreciation about this), stereotypes insult of an entire region is the worst thing to do for a politician, especially for one who want to run the presidency.
Powerdoc I have the most absolute respect for you. Let me give another example.
People in the US make stereotypes about the people of France. They say that people in France are rude.
This kind of thing is hateful, and not productive. When I visit Paris I found the other is true.
With the highest respect,
Fellows
Originally posted by Powerdoc
It was not very clever from this man to insult the entire south on a very sensitive subject ( a huge stereotype).
I remember when i started my surgeon's studies, that a professor says to me during a morning debriefing (i had problems to find some Xray radios) " are all people coming from the south are slow ? " i was very angry and even if i knew that i could face deep troubles for answering, i replied (don't remember what, i did not sleep the whole night so i was very tired).
If he simply yelled at me : you are damn slow, it will have been OK. But insulting the part of France where i came from hurted me. I came from Grenoble, a more active town than Angers, with scientist research, with the Synchrotron ..; and the Crolles fab.
It was weird, when i lived in Grenoble i never considered that i was living in the south.
This little story, is just to point out that it was a very bad move from a politician. Even if there is some truth in it (i don't live in US to have any appreciation about this), stereotypes insult of an entire region is the worst thing to do for a politician, especially for one who want to run the presidency.
Depends on how you think Dean insults them. I think he clearly does, but mildly, because he's explicitly saying that the group's voting habits for the past 30 years are wrong. Are we not allowed to comment on the general voting habits of a particular group of people anymore? Because I think it's true that southerners tend to base their votes on race, guns, God, and gays. If that's not true, someone speak up please.
Originally posted by ShawnJ
Are we not allowed to comment on the general voting habits of a particular group of people anymore? Because I think it's true that southerners tend to base their votes on race, guns, God, and gays. If that's not true, someone speak up please.
Shawn you can comment all you wish.
Whatever makes you happy.
Fellowship
Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook
Powerdoc I have the most absolute respect for you. Let me give another example.
People in the US make stereotypes about the people of France. They say that people in France are rude.
This kind of thing is hateful, and not productive. When I visit Paris I found the other is true.
With the highest respect,
Fellows
So southerners generally don't base their votes on race, guns, God, or gays. They vote for better education and health care first and foremost, right!?
Originally posted by ShawnJ
Depends on how you think Dean insults them. I think he clearly does, but mildly, because he's explicitly saying that the group's voting habits for the past 30 years are wrong. Are we not allowed to comment on the general voting habits of a particular group of people anymore? Because I think it's true that southerners tend to base their votes on race, guns, God, and gays. If that's not true, someone speak up please.
It's called tact SPJ. Dean did not have it in this case. Could you at least agree to that?
Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook
Shawn you can comment all you wish.
Whatever makes you happy.
Fellowship
Originally posted by ShawnJ
So southerners generally don't base their votes on race, guns, God, or gays. They vote for better education and health care first and foremost, right!?
You know what the stereotype is. You are doing a very good job repeating it. Produce a study that confirms the validity of such a stereotype and you can keep shouting that is what southerners do. Until then, you are being culturally insensitive.
Even if you do find a study confirming the stereotype, Dean still lacked tact.
Originally posted by BR
It's called tact SPJ. Dean did not have it in this case. Could you at least agree to that?
Sure. That's a good way to describe Dean sometimes. He's not always tactful, hence his straight-talk reputation (or myth). I certainly agreed that he insults southerners but I qualify the insult as only mild. Like I explained before, the insult is in telling southerners that 30 or 40 years of voting habits are wrong, not in saying that southerners generally base their votes on race, guns, God, and gays. I think that's generally a true statement. Wouldn't you think?
Originally posted by BR
You know what the stereotype is. You are doing a very good job repeating it. Produce a study that confirms the validity of such a stereotype and you can keep shouting that is what southerners do. Until then, you are being culturally insensitive.
Even if you do find a study confirming the stereotype, Dean still lacked tact.
Well, I suppose I might then. Where can I find data on the voting habits of southerners, anyone?
Originally posted by ShawnJ
Well, I suppose I might then. Where can I find data on the voting habits of southerners, anyone?
I'll empower you by allowing you to find the information yourself so that you can fully take credit for any success or failure. That is true empowerment.
Originally posted by Powerdoc
It was not very clever from this man to insult the entire south on a very sensitive subject ( a huge stereotype).
I remember when i started my surgeon's studies, that a professor says to me during a morning debriefing (i had problems to find some Xray radios) " are all people coming from the south are slow ? " i was very angry and even if i knew that i could face deep troubles for answering, i replied (don't remember what, i did not sleep the whole night so i was very tired).
If he simply yelled at me : you are damn slow, it will have been OK. But insulting the part of France where i came from hurted me. I came from Grenoble, a more active town than Angers, with scientist research, with the Synchrotron ..; and the Crolles fab.
It was weird, when i lived in Grenoble i never considered that i was living in the south.
This little story, is just to point out that it was a very bad move from a politician. Even if there is some truth in it (i don't live in US to have any appreciation about this), stereotypes insult of an entire region is the worst thing to do for a politician, especially for one who want to run the presidency.
Grenoble: L'esprit d'innovation
I want Powerdoc for president.
Fellowship
Originally posted by chu_bakka
Uhg. I don't even know why I try.
You're NOT trying. That's the problem. All you have to do is look at every presidential election for the past 30 years to see that northern Dems have a problem there whereas the southern Dems that ran had some success. It's plain as day.
Originally posted by ShawnJ
So southerners generally don't base their votes on race, guns, God, or gays. They vote for better education and health care first and foremost, right!?
I think you're all missing Dean's point. He doesn't say anything about race, guns, God or gays. He's talking about the issues they should vote on but don't vote on, not the issues they do vote on that they shouldn't vote on.
People in this thread seem to be reversing the implications of his statement most likely because they want to see Dean fail. You're putting words in his mouth because you want to believe he's wrong.
The truth is, he's right. Economically speaking poor southerners would most likely be better off voting for a Democrat.
And yes, he apparently has no tact.