Right, but my point is that I don't think that that extends to, say, a paper written for a history assignment. I think it's there so that someone can't use university resources to benefit without allowing the university to share.
colleges and universities are notorious for thieving all kinds of student's IP. they often swoop down and pluck ideas, only after they come to fruition, ignoring any failed projects the student may have worked on. a student gets to toil over 10s or hundreds of ideas, all failing but one; and the institution comes in and claims ownership over it and steal it. anyone who creates works is best to be particularly cautious while under the watchful eye of a university.
I am curious about the procedure. Does the professor call the student in to break the news about a university claim? Or does the professor alert some kind of university committee, which then sends the student a letter of notification?
I think it would take a lot of gall for a professor to face a student with such blatant news.
Is every student just on his or her own with regard to this situation? You'd think there'd be graduate student organizations that would unite to fight such activity.
actually it was a professor warning me that the U would own IP rights to what my papers were written on. i wasn't aware of that. he asked me if i'd want to write a paper on something else if this was going to be a concern.
i had no idea that a U would own my papers etc. and this isn't just graduate level work, but undergrad work as well.
when i asked about this same subject in a required english class the professor said that you could be busted for plagerising (sp?) your own work. since when you turn it in it belongs to the school, it's their work your copying, not your own.
actually it was a professor warning me that the U would own IP rights to what my papers were written on. i wasn't aware of that. he asked me if i'd want to write a paper on something else if this was going to be a concern.
i had no idea that a U would own my papers etc. and this isn't just graduate level work, but undergrad work as well.
when i asked about this same subject in a required english class the professor said that you could be busted for plagerising (sp?) your own work. since when you turn it in it belongs to the school, it's their work your copying, not your own.
i'll see if i can find offical policy.
Well, that was pretty nice of him to let you know. What did you decide to do?
I would very much like to see their statement of policy. I think I remember my ex talking about this sort of thing when he was a senior in engineering. He worked on design projects with other students - designing robots, etc.
But they worked in a university lab, and used the U's testing equipment, etc. So I could see some justification for a claim in such a case.
But research papers, etc.? It seems so unfair. Now I wonder how many of the papers I wrote might have been used by professors to get fresh ideas. I guess this has been going on forever. I wonder how many students know about these policies in advance of facing the situation. Not many, I bet.
I spent three damned hours last night tracking down sources used by a plagiarist. Three hours. Gone. Down the drain. Hours I could've spent grading other people's essays.
sorry i am late to this thread. being married to an english professor, i know EXACTLY what you mean. contrary to popular belief, there are some professors that give a damn and bust their ass to do their job right. i am glad to be married to one of them.
Subd. 1. This policy applies to all faculty, staff, students, and any other persons employed by the University; to all persons receiving funding administered by the University or receiving other compensation from the University; and to all University-enrolled graduate students and post-doctoral fellows regardless of funding or employment status.
Quote:
Subd. 2. "Intellectual Property" means any invention, discovery, improvement, copyrightable work, integrated circuit mask work, trademark, trade secret, and licensable know-how and related rights. Intellectual property includes, but is not limited to, individual or multimedia works of art or music, records of confidential information generated or maintained by the University, data, texts, instructional materials, tests, bibliographies, research findings, organisms, cells, viruses, DNA sequences, other biological materials, probes, crystallographic coordinates, plant lines, chemical compounds, and theses. Intellectual property may exist in a written or electronic form, may be raw or derived, and may be in the form of text, multimedia, computer programs, spreadsheets, formatted fields in records or forms within files, databases, graphics, digital images, video and audio recordings, live video or audio broadcasts, performances, two or three-dimensional works of art, musical compositions, executions of processes, film, film strips, slides, charts, transparencies, other visual/aural aids or CD-ROMS.
Thank you for the link. My eyes are burning and I'll have to read the whole thing tomorrow; but I did spot this statement:
"Subd. 2. Exceptions to University Ownership.
a) The University shall have no ownership rights in the following intellectual property, which shall be owned by its creator
ii) Intellectual property created by a student solely for the purpose of satisfying course requirements, unless the student assigns ownership rights in the intellectual property to the University in writing or assignment of such ownership rights to the University is made a condition for participation in a course."
Most graduate students, at least, *do* work for the university in some capacity, such as having a teaching or research assistanceship. In those cases, you don't have much legal ground to stand on.
I'm finishing my PhD in Computer Science, and I just signed over the patent rights to the university on something that well... it could be huge. Really, really, freakin' huge. So why did I do so, knowing that I lose most of any licensing fees? Because during the entire time that I've been developing it, I've worked for them. They could easily swoop in later and take the whole ball of wax, leaving me with nothing, but this way I get a cut of the license fees, if any. It kind of sucks, but on the other hand, I've decided to look at it as keeping their lawyers on retainer. I never have to bother with pursuing an infringment, I just sic the university on them.
Of course, if we didn't have a really nice license fee arrangement here, I probably wouldn't feel so good about it...
So why did I do so, knowing that I lose most of any licensing fees? Because during the entire time that I've been developing it, I've worked for them. They could easily swoop in later and take the whole ball of wax, leaving me with nothing...
isn't that EXACTLY what happened to the guys who created fetch at dartmouth? basically, dartmouth claimed ownership after they graduated, and then it just sat there, rotting, until the original programmer, no lie, went on "who wants to be a millionaire?" and was the first contestant to win the entire jackpot.
i think you can read the whole weird story on their website somewhere (or you used to be able to, anyway).
Most graduate students, at least, *do* work for the university in some capacity, such as having a teaching or research assistanceship. In those cases, you don't have much legal ground to stand on.
I'm finishing my PhD in Computer Science, and I just signed over the patent rights to the university on something that well... it could be huge. Really, really, freakin' huge. So why did I do so, knowing that I lose most of any licensing fees? Because during the entire time that I've been developing it, I've worked for them. They could easily swoop in later and take the whole ball of wax, leaving me with nothing, but this way I get a cut of the license fees, if any. It kind of sucks, but on the other hand, I've decided to look at it as keeping their lawyers on retainer. I never have to bother with pursuing an infringment, I just sic the university on them.
Of course, if we didn't have a really nice license fee arrangement here, I probably wouldn't feel so good about it...
It sounds like you're looking at it in a positive way; and you are lucky to have a cut of the fees.
Is there a time limit imposed on how long you are a recipient? Does your 'take' continue increasing as more fees are paid? (Maybe you should get out and advertise. haha)
With global IP piracy the way it is, you're probably smart to wash your hands of any legal worries. Once your creation hits the 'market,' someone will undoubtedly try to copy it, and might be successful. All in all, you're wise to have signed. So it doesn't suck that bad, right?
That's my outlook on it, and yes, I get a flat % of the licensing fees. (Well, my and my advisor, grrr...) Two years ago UNC instituted a new IP program because faculty and students were doing everything they could to find loopholes in the old program. Essentially it boiled down to "We own it, you're out of luck, and oh by the way, we're going to sit on it and not license it to anyone or enforce it when anyone infringes." They were worse than useless.
Oh, and to get this back on topic, I've had plagiarizing students as well - you ever tried explaining to an honor court that programs that differ only in small ways *are* cheating because, no, it's not like math with only one solution... :P
In one case I had three students with the same three programs, differing only in variable names (and not by much). They had the same comment typos. Sent them off to honor court, HC got back to me saying 'prove it', so I handed them the 37 other programs handed in that day, and showed them that no two were even *remotely* alike. They accepted that as evidence enough. Unfortunately, it's going to take some continued education of such courts. At least in this case it was easy.
I don't know how english prof's do it...in some group projects I have seen some writing skills that turn my stomach, and I'm a Finance major. [/B]
Ah, well, I'm down here in the trenches with the 13-year-olds.
The problem is that two-thirds of the accountability is placed in one class - the English class; because the national and state testing cover writing, reading comprehension and math.
Every year, more is thrown into the English curriculum. The breaking point was surpassed long ago, but more requirements appear each year. My class should be two separate classes; but because of budget cut-backs, that will never happen.
My students are writing short stories now. Just getting them to double-space their typed drafts apparently requires me to do the dance of the seven veils on the tabletops. Since that dance is not in my current repertoire, I continue to get single-spaced drafts.
I won't even mention the nonexistent capitalization, punctuation and spelling skills. But if all else fails, they WILL learn the irregular verbs, or they will not leave my class during the course of the current millennium.
Oh well. It's late. Tomorrow we do compound sentences, irregular verbs, and review/application of literary elements to short works of fiction.
Ah, well, I'm down here in the trenches with the 13-year-olds.
The problem is that two-thirds of the accountability is placed in one class - the English class; because the national and state testing cover writing, reading comprehension and math.
Every year, more is thrown into the English curriculum. The breaking point was surpassed long ago, but more requirements appear each year. My class should be two separate classes; but because of budget cut-backs, that will never happen.
My students are writing short stories now. Just getting them to double-space their typed drafts apparently requires me to do the dance of the seven veils on the tabletops. Since that dance is not in my current repertoire, I continue to get single-spaced drafts.
I won't even mention the nonexistent capitalization, punctuation and spelling skills. But if all else fails, they WILL learn the irregular verbs, or they will not leave my class during the course of the current millennium.
Oh well. It's late. Tomorrow we do compound sentences, irregular verbs, and review/application of literary elements to short works of fiction.
Cheers.
Carol
I have also heard that one of the latest problems is the frequent usage of instant chat-like abbreviations in papers, things like "l8r" and such.
Double spacing- that's crazy- it is only clicking one button on the computer.
My brother was pumped to be in high school (this was some years ago) and so when his very first high school English paper came up, I remember him pacing the house, reading, revising, bouncing questions off our parents. He's a hard worker and a smart guy, and he has two college professors for parents. So he turned in a really good paper.
He got an F. The teacher couldn't believe that he'd written it. All appeals failed - the teacher thought it was plagiarism, so it was. The F stuck, and the teacher resented us all for daring to challenge his authority and gave him hell for the rest of the year. My brother was crushed, and he spent most of the rest of high school not caring at all.
It's nice to hear that the standards for proof are a little more robust in college.
My brother was pumped to be in high school (this was some years ago) and so when his very first high school English paper came up, I remember him pacing the house, reading, revising, bouncing questions off our parents. He's a hard worker and a smart guy, and he has two college professors for parents. So he turned in a really good paper.
He got an F. The teacher couldn't believe that he'd written it. All appeals failed - the teacher thought it was plagiarism, so it was. The F stuck, and the teacher resented us all for daring to challenge his authority and gave him hell for the rest of the year. My brother was crushed, and he spent most of the rest of high school not caring at all.
It's nice to hear that the standards for proof are a little more robust in college.
Comments
Originally posted by alcimedes
no, it applies to student's work as well.
i went through this with a professor. i rewrote a paper because i refused to give them rights to my original idea.
if you don't believe me check. Universities (at least public ones) claim ownership of student's IP as well as employees.
Did the professor call you in and say the university was claiming rights to your idea? Or that HE was claiming rights in some way?
Were you a graduate student receiving any kind of stipend from the university when you produced your idea?
How did rewriting help you maintain your claim to your own work?
Originally posted by thuh Freak
colleges and universities are notorious for thieving all kinds of student's IP. they often swoop down and pluck ideas, only after they come to fruition, ignoring any failed projects the student may have worked on. a student gets to toil over 10s or hundreds of ideas, all failing but one; and the institution comes in and claims ownership over it and steal it. anyone who creates works is best to be particularly cautious while under the watchful eye of a university.
I am curious about the procedure. Does the professor call the student in to break the news about a university claim? Or does the professor alert some kind of university committee, which then sends the student a letter of notification?
I think it would take a lot of gall for a professor to face a student with such blatant news.
Is every student just on his or her own with regard to this situation? You'd think there'd be graduate student organizations that would unite to fight such activity.
i had no idea that a U would own my papers etc. and this isn't just graduate level work, but undergrad work as well.
when i asked about this same subject in a required english class the professor said that you could be busted for plagerising (sp?) your own work. since when you turn it in it belongs to the school, it's their work your copying, not your own.
i'll see if i can find offical policy.
Originally posted by alcimedes
actually it was a professor warning me that the U would own IP rights to what my papers were written on. i wasn't aware of that. he asked me if i'd want to write a paper on something else if this was going to be a concern.
i had no idea that a U would own my papers etc. and this isn't just graduate level work, but undergrad work as well.
when i asked about this same subject in a required english class the professor said that you could be busted for plagerising (sp?) your own work. since when you turn it in it belongs to the school, it's their work your copying, not your own.
i'll see if i can find offical policy.
Well, that was pretty nice of him to let you know. What did you decide to do?
I would very much like to see their statement of policy. I think I remember my ex talking about this sort of thing when he was a senior in engineering. He worked on design projects with other students - designing robots, etc.
But they worked in a university lab, and used the U's testing equipment, etc. So I could see some justification for a claim in such a case.
But research papers, etc.? It seems so unfair. Now I wonder how many of the papers I wrote might have been used by professors to get fresh ideas. I guess this has been going on forever. I wonder how many students know about these policies in advance of facing the situation. Not many, I bet.
Originally posted by midwinter
I spent three damned hours last night tracking down sources used by a plagiarist. Three hours. Gone. Down the drain. Hours I could've spent grading other people's essays.
sorry i am late to this thread. being married to an english professor, i know EXACTLY what you mean. contrary to popular belief, there are some professors that give a damn and bust their ass to do their job right. i am glad to be married to one of them.
http://www1.umn.edu/usenate/policies/intelproperty.html
Subd. 1. This policy applies to all faculty, staff, students, and any other persons employed by the University; to all persons receiving funding administered by the University or receiving other compensation from the University; and to all University-enrolled graduate students and post-doctoral fellows regardless of funding or employment status.
Subd. 2. "Intellectual Property" means any invention, discovery, improvement, copyrightable work, integrated circuit mask work, trademark, trade secret, and licensable know-how and related rights. Intellectual property includes, but is not limited to, individual or multimedia works of art or music, records of confidential information generated or maintained by the University, data, texts, instructional materials, tests, bibliographies, research findings, organisms, cells, viruses, DNA sequences, other biological materials, probes, crystallographic coordinates, plant lines, chemical compounds, and theses. Intellectual property may exist in a written or electronic form, may be raw or derived, and may be in the form of text, multimedia, computer programs, spreadsheets, formatted fields in records or forms within files, databases, graphics, digital images, video and audio recordings, live video or audio broadcasts, performances, two or three-dimensional works of art, musical compositions, executions of processes, film, film strips, slides, charts, transparencies, other visual/aural aids or CD-ROMS.
Originally posted by alcimedes
here's the link.
http://www1.umn.edu/usenate/policies/intelproperty.html
Thank you for the link. My eyes are burning and I'll have to read the whole thing tomorrow; but I did spot this statement:
"Subd. 2. Exceptions to University Ownership.
a) The University shall have no ownership rights in the following intellectual property, which shall be owned by its creator
ii) Intellectual property created by a student solely for the purpose of satisfying course requirements, unless the student assigns ownership rights in the intellectual property to the University in writing or assignment of such ownership rights to the University is made a condition for participation in a course."
************************************************** *********
This would seem to cover a fair number of situations regarding papers, don't you think?
But I'm sure there are other statements in the part I haven't yet read that contradict this one.
Thanks again for the link.
Carol
I'm finishing my PhD in Computer Science, and I just signed over the patent rights to the university on something that well... it could be huge. Really, really, freakin' huge. So why did I do so, knowing that I lose most of any licensing fees? Because during the entire time that I've been developing it, I've worked for them. They could easily swoop in later and take the whole ball of wax, leaving me with nothing, but this way I get a cut of the license fees, if any. It kind of sucks, but on the other hand, I've decided to look at it as keeping their lawyers on retainer. I never have to bother with pursuing an infringment, I just sic the university on them.
Of course, if we didn't have a really nice license fee arrangement here, I probably wouldn't feel so good about it...
Originally posted by Kickaha
So why did I do so, knowing that I lose most of any licensing fees? Because during the entire time that I've been developing it, I've worked for them. They could easily swoop in later and take the whole ball of wax, leaving me with nothing...
isn't that EXACTLY what happened to the guys who created fetch at dartmouth? basically, dartmouth claimed ownership after they graduated, and then it just sat there, rotting, until the original programmer, no lie, went on "who wants to be a millionaire?" and was the first contestant to win the entire jackpot.
i think you can read the whole weird story on their website somewhere (or you used to be able to, anyway).
Originally posted by Kickaha
Most graduate students, at least, *do* work for the university in some capacity, such as having a teaching or research assistanceship. In those cases, you don't have much legal ground to stand on.
I'm finishing my PhD in Computer Science, and I just signed over the patent rights to the university on something that well... it could be huge. Really, really, freakin' huge. So why did I do so, knowing that I lose most of any licensing fees? Because during the entire time that I've been developing it, I've worked for them. They could easily swoop in later and take the whole ball of wax, leaving me with nothing, but this way I get a cut of the license fees, if any. It kind of sucks, but on the other hand, I've decided to look at it as keeping their lawyers on retainer. I never have to bother with pursuing an infringment, I just sic the university on them.
Of course, if we didn't have a really nice license fee arrangement here, I probably wouldn't feel so good about it...
It sounds like you're looking at it in a positive way; and you are lucky to have a cut of the fees.
Is there a time limit imposed on how long you are a recipient? Does your 'take' continue increasing as more fees are paid? (Maybe you should get out and advertise. haha)
With global IP piracy the way it is, you're probably smart to wash your hands of any legal worries. Once your creation hits the 'market,' someone will undoubtedly try to copy it, and might be successful. All in all, you're wise to have signed. So it doesn't suck that bad, right?
Carol
Oh, and to get this back on topic, I've had plagiarizing students as well - you ever tried explaining to an honor court that programs that differ only in small ways *are* cheating because, no, it's not like math with only one solution... :P
In one case I had three students with the same three programs, differing only in variable names (and not by much). They had the same comment typos. Sent them off to honor court, HC got back to me saying 'prove it', so I handed them the 37 other programs handed in that day, and showed them that no two were even *remotely* alike. They accepted that as evidence enough. Unfortunately, it's going to take some continued education of such courts. At least in this case it was easy.
At my school here you are kicked-out, never to return.
Thankfully I am a capable enough writer (though you'd never know it through these forums) that I don't trust anyone else's work.
I don't know how english prof's do it...in some group projects I have seen some writing skills that turn my stomach, and I'm a Finance major.
Originally posted by gorebug
Gee, an F for plagarism seems to be pretty weak punishment.
At my school here you are kicked-out, never to return.
Thankfully I am a capable enough writer (though you'd never know it through these forums) that I don't trust anyone else's work.
I don't know how english prof's do it...in some group projects I have seen some writing skills that turn my stomach, and I'm a Finance major.
Believe me, if I could expel or suspend a student for it without the punishment being overturned in an appeal, I would.
I've also recommended crucifixion on the library lawn, but no one wants to go along with me on that one.
Originally posted by gorebug work.
I don't know how english prof's do it...in some group projects I have seen some writing skills that turn my stomach, and I'm a Finance major. [/B]
Ah, well, I'm down here in the trenches with the 13-year-olds.
The problem is that two-thirds of the accountability is placed in one class - the English class; because the national and state testing cover writing, reading comprehension and math.
Every year, more is thrown into the English curriculum. The breaking point was surpassed long ago, but more requirements appear each year. My class should be two separate classes; but because of budget cut-backs, that will never happen.
My students are writing short stories now. Just getting them to double-space their typed drafts apparently requires me to do the dance of the seven veils on the tabletops. Since that dance is not in my current repertoire, I continue to get single-spaced drafts.
I won't even mention the nonexistent capitalization, punctuation and spelling skills. But if all else fails, they WILL learn the irregular verbs, or they will not leave my class during the course of the current millennium.
Oh well. It's late. Tomorrow we do compound sentences, irregular verbs, and review/application of literary elements to short works of fiction.
Cheers.
Carol
Originally posted by Carol A
Ah, well, I'm down here in the trenches with the 13-year-olds.
The problem is that two-thirds of the accountability is placed in one class - the English class; because the national and state testing cover writing, reading comprehension and math.
Every year, more is thrown into the English curriculum. The breaking point was surpassed long ago, but more requirements appear each year. My class should be two separate classes; but because of budget cut-backs, that will never happen.
My students are writing short stories now. Just getting them to double-space their typed drafts apparently requires me to do the dance of the seven veils on the tabletops. Since that dance is not in my current repertoire, I continue to get single-spaced drafts.
I won't even mention the nonexistent capitalization, punctuation and spelling skills. But if all else fails, they WILL learn the irregular verbs, or they will not leave my class during the course of the current millennium.
Oh well. It's late. Tomorrow we do compound sentences, irregular verbs, and review/application of literary elements to short works of fiction.
Cheers.
Carol
I have also heard that one of the latest problems is the frequent usage of instant chat-like abbreviations in papers, things like "l8r" and such.
Double spacing- that's crazy- it is only clicking one button on the computer.
Originally posted by gorebug
I have also heard that one of the latest problems is the frequent usage of instant chat-like abbreviations in papers, things like "l8r" and such.
Double spacing- that's crazy- it is only clicking one button on the computer.
Chat - I haven't had that problem yet; but that's the 'only' problem I haven't had!
In defense of my students, I would like to say that they are great kids - all 130 of them. We just have too much to cover.
One click - Yeah, I know. Amazing, huh?
He got an F. The teacher couldn't believe that he'd written it. All appeals failed - the teacher thought it was plagiarism, so it was. The F stuck, and the teacher resented us all for daring to challenge his authority and gave him hell for the rest of the year. My brother was crushed, and he spent most of the rest of high school not caring at all.
It's nice to hear that the standards for proof are a little more robust in college.
Originally posted by Amorph
My brother was pumped to be in high school (this was some years ago) and so when his very first high school English paper came up, I remember him pacing the house, reading, revising, bouncing questions off our parents. He's a hard worker and a smart guy, and he has two college professors for parents. So he turned in a really good paper.
He got an F. The teacher couldn't believe that he'd written it. All appeals failed - the teacher thought it was plagiarism, so it was. The F stuck, and the teacher resented us all for daring to challenge his authority and gave him hell for the rest of the year. My brother was crushed, and he spent most of the rest of high school not caring at all.
It's nice to hear that the standards for proof are a little more robust in college.
All appeals failed?