Funny. Because I have spend DAYS discussing with left wingers here that regard the Kosovo war as MORE illegal than the Iraqi operations. Get your head out of the sand.
Good. So maybe you now finally developed a cogent argument and could explain the legal basis of your point of view. I'll see if I can maybe understand you.
In Kosovo... we went in with Nato AIrpower, then Nato forces on the ground followed by the UN Peacekeepers to seperate the two SIDES.
And... oh yeah... there was genocide going on that had to be stopped.
Keep it up ... "it's just the leftist complaining about the tactics." Newt this weekend thought the plan was wrongheaded. Is he a leftist? Former editor at Fox. Andrew Neil.. is he leftist? And the Military analyst at Fox? And I don't here all the conservatives in Congress sticking thier neck out and saying everything is going hunkydory. Why?
Keep it up ... "it's just the leftist complaining about the tactics." Newt this weekend thought the plan was wrongheaded. Is he a leftist? Former editor at Fox. Andrew Neil.. is he leftist? And the Military analyst at Fox? And I don't here all the conservatives in Congress sticking thier neck out and saying everything is going hunkydory. Why?
Because It's a clusterfuuck.
I already said I agreed. The less visible the US presence is on the streets of Baghdad, the better. I would keep 30,000 troops with heavy armor around the oil installations so that they don't fall into the wrong hands, and send the rest home. Supply the forces who have voiced public support for democracy with small arms and let them sort it out with the Saddam loyalists. The playing field is leveled. Saddam no longer has his tanks and choppers to field. Those interested in democracy in Iraq need to commit to that struggle. It's their struggle, and they should be the ones fighting for it.
Nothing beat the upfront humiliation of having to show pass signs you can´t´read to troops from a foreign country while trying to do everyday stuff. What long time benefits you get from that is lost on the negativety produced right here and now.
Come on Nick. Stop playing those games. At least say its nessesary for the safety of the troops regardless of the negative side effects. Thats a position I can understand. This kind of arguing you do here doesn´t serve you right.
(confused stare) I think I said quite clearly that this tactic was being used to minimize harm to ground troops. I said so when discussing this with bunge.
(confused stare) I think I said quite clearly that this tactic was being used to minimize harm to ground troops. I said so when discussing this with bunge.
Nick
Good. And do you agree with the second part, negative "side effects"?
Good. And do you agree with the second part, negative "side effects"?
Negative side effects is pretty broad. I could agree to it and you could define it as police state right afterward. I stated it was clearly a hassle. It clearly involved trade-offs by the Iraqi's. It is obviously more inconvenient than say no action. However I could not imagine another way of attemping to find the say, 5 men out of 7,000 people who might be causing trouble within the town. It is as unrestrictive as I could imagine an action being while still attempting to be effective.
Negative side effects is pretty broad. I could agree to it and you could define it as police state right afterward. I stated it was clearly a hassle. It clearly involved trade-offs by the Iraqi's. It is obviously more inconvenient than say no action. However I could not imagine another way of attemping to find the say, 5 men out of 7,000 people who might be causing trouble within the town. It is as unrestrictive as I could imagine an action being while still attempting to be effective.
Oh come now bunge... I mean that is in Syria which is an entirely different country. Certainly the terrorists would never enter another country to work with their religious and philisophical contemporaries. Next you'll be telling me that Al Queda could go have gone into and worked with Iraq.
Yes the whole country is experiencing gas shortages because of these attacks and setting up check points in an attempt to stop them is creating a police state!
Your hypocracy has found an entirely new level. Complaining that the U.S. is responsible for the actions of the insurgents and also horrible for attempting to stop them. Wow!
Complaining that the U.S. is responsible for the actions of the insurgents and also horrible for attempting to stop them. Wow!
Yeah, we all know the US's actions have nothing to do with the insurgency there. Rrrrrrright. They are just policing the traffic inside the villages...
On its corporate Web site, under a page titled "A Fresh Start for Iraqi School Children," Bechtel Group showcases sparkling new classrooms filled with happy, young Iraqi students.
But the reality is far different, according to Army investigators.
"In almost every case, the paint jobs were done in a hurry, causing more damage to the appearance of the school than in terms of providing a finish that will protect the structure," a recent Army investigation into Bechtel's work found. "In one case, the paint job actually damaged critical lab equipment, making it unusable."
Bechtel is one of the biggest corporate winners of U.S. contracts to rebuild Iraq. Before the war ended, it received a $680 million contract to fix Iraq's electrical grids, water ports and more than 1,200 schools. In October, it won an additional $350 million contract to continue the electrical work.
Bechtel has stressed that the schools in question are a small percentage of schools it has fixed, working in extreme conditions that often put its employees' lives at risk. Company spokesman Francis Canavan said he had no knowledge of an Army investigation, and that "every school was signed off by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers."
According to Iraqi education officials, Bechtel budgeted about $20,000 per school for repairs. That budget may not seem like much compared to U.S. rates, but laborers here work for $2 to $7 a day. Bechtel subcontracted out the work to Iraqis for an undisclosed amount.
During repairs, "reports started coming in about poor quality," said 422nd Civil Affairs Battalion Maj. Linda Scharf, who was responsible for the schools in question, and who started fielding calls from concerned teachers and headmasters.
"So I asked one of my teams to go verify the rumors," Scharf said. "They took their digital camera, and the reality turned out to be worse than the rumors."
What they found: The subcontractors Bechtel hired left paint everywhere - on the floors, on desks, all over windows. The classrooms were filthy, the school's desks and chairs were thrown out into the playground and left, broken. Windows were left damaged, and bathrooms that were reportedly fixed were left in broken, unsanitary condition.
"Would you allow your child to use that bathroom? I wouldn't," Scharf said, pointing to a photograph of a stained, broken hole in a dirty, tiled stall.
There are two reasons why this conversation is so stupid.
1. trumptman is the only person that brought up the term police state, so his main point is an argument against a phantom.
He's such a numbnut he even posted the definition of 'police state' in bold. Go do a search for 'police' on the front page to see a prime example of an idiot arguing with himself. He's like a dog chasing his own tail.
2. Iraqi is micromanaged by a military. By its very nature it is going to be repressive. Of course, there are much better ways of going about this whole occupation. Much better. Arguing that it's not repressive is like arguing that cats lay eggs.
Comments
Originally posted by Anders
Funny. Because I have spend DAYS discussing with left wingers here that regard the Kosovo war as MORE illegal than the Iraqi operations. Get your head out of the sand.
Good. So maybe you now finally developed a cogent argument and could explain the legal basis of your point of view. I'll see if I can maybe understand you.
In Kosovo... we went in with Nato AIrpower, then Nato forces on the ground followed by the UN Peacekeepers to seperate the two SIDES.
And... oh yeah... there was genocide going on that had to be stopped.
Keep it up ... "it's just the leftist complaining about the tactics." Newt this weekend thought the plan was wrongheaded. Is he a leftist? Former editor at Fox. Andrew Neil.. is he leftist? And the Military analyst at Fox? And I don't here all the conservatives in Congress sticking thier neck out and saying everything is going hunkydory. Why?
Because It's a clusterfuuck.
Originally posted by chu_bakka
Keep it up ... "it's just the leftist complaining about the tactics." Newt this weekend thought the plan was wrongheaded. Is he a leftist? Former editor at Fox. Andrew Neil.. is he leftist? And the Military analyst at Fox? And I don't here all the conservatives in Congress sticking thier neck out and saying everything is going hunkydory. Why?
Because It's a clusterfuuck.
I already said I agreed. The less visible the US presence is on the streets of Baghdad, the better. I would keep 30,000 troops with heavy armor around the oil installations so that they don't fall into the wrong hands, and send the rest home. Supply the forces who have voiced public support for democracy with small arms and let them sort it out with the Saddam loyalists. The playing field is leveled. Saddam no longer has his tanks and choppers to field. Those interested in democracy in Iraq need to commit to that struggle. It's their struggle, and they should be the ones fighting for it.
Originally posted by Anders
Nothing beat the upfront humiliation of having to show pass signs you can´t´read to troops from a foreign country while trying to do everyday stuff. What long time benefits you get from that is lost on the negativety produced right here and now.
Come on Nick. Stop playing those games. At least say its nessesary for the safety of the troops regardless of the negative side effects. Thats a position I can understand. This kind of arguing you do here doesn´t serve you right.
(confused stare) I think I said quite clearly that this tactic was being used to minimize harm to ground troops. I said so when discussing this with bunge.
Nick
Originally posted by trumptman
(confused stare) I think I said quite clearly that this tactic was being used to minimize harm to ground troops. I said so when discussing this with bunge.
Nick
Good. And do you agree with the second part, negative "side effects"?
Originally posted by Anders
Good. And do you agree with the second part, negative "side effects"?
Negative side effects is pretty broad. I could agree to it and you could define it as police state right afterward. I stated it was clearly a hassle. It clearly involved trade-offs by the Iraqi's. It is obviously more inconvenient than say no action. However I could not imagine another way of attemping to find the say, 5 men out of 7,000 people who might be causing trouble within the town. It is as unrestrictive as I could imagine an action being while still attempting to be effective.
Nick
Cheers
Scott
Originally posted by addabox
The whole world our west bank.....
Shhh! Dammit! If there's one thing we've learned in the last 400 years, it's very clearly this:
Shooting at "terrorists" makes them go away.
Get with the program!
Cheers
Scott
Originally posted by trumptman
Negative side effects is pretty broad. I could agree to it and you could define it as police state right afterward. I stated it was clearly a hassle. It clearly involved trade-offs by the Iraqi's. It is obviously more inconvenient than say no action. However I could not imagine another way of attemping to find the say, 5 men out of 7,000 people who might be causing trouble within the town. It is as unrestrictive as I could imagine an action being while still attempting to be effective.
Nick
Dodging a clear question with many words...
Originally posted by midwinter
Guys! Guys! Don't worry! The occupation is going just fine, and the Iraqis all love us!
Cheers
Scott
At first, I thought your link was about the 'ghostwritten' form letters home,
Imagine my shock to read Halliburton charging $2.65 for gas in a country selling it for $0.05/gal
oh wait... surprise isn't the word.
Originally posted by Smircle
Dodging a clear question with many words...
More like giving it my definition instead of letting someone else define it for me.
I suppose when Republicans say they have passed a "Medicare Prescription Drug Benefit." You must be in full agreement with it.
Nick
Originally posted by bunge
Assassination squads in Syria? Making an example of certain villages? Yuck.
Oh come now bunge... I mean that is in Syria which is an entirely different country. Certainly the terrorists would never enter another country to work with their religious and philisophical contemporaries. Next you'll be telling me that Al Queda could go have gone into and worked with Iraq.
Nick
Originally posted by midwinter
Guys! Guys! Don't worry! The occupation is going just fine, and the Iraqis all love us!
Cheers
Scott
Yes the whole country is experiencing gas shortages because of these attacks and setting up check points in an attempt to stop them is creating a police state!
Your hypocracy has found an entirely new level. Complaining that the U.S. is responsible for the actions of the insurgents and also horrible for attempting to stop them. Wow!
Nick
Originally posted by trumptman
Complaining that the U.S. is responsible for the actions of the insurgents and also horrible for attempting to stop them. Wow!
Yeah, we all know the US's actions have nothing to do with the insurgency there. Rrrrrrright. They are just policing the traffic inside the villages...
Your Tax dollars at work.
http://www.knoxstudio.com/shns/story...2-08-03&cat=II
On its corporate Web site, under a page titled "A Fresh Start for Iraqi School Children," Bechtel Group showcases sparkling new classrooms filled with happy, young Iraqi students.
But the reality is far different, according to Army investigators.
"In almost every case, the paint jobs were done in a hurry, causing more damage to the appearance of the school than in terms of providing a finish that will protect the structure," a recent Army investigation into Bechtel's work found. "In one case, the paint job actually damaged critical lab equipment, making it unusable."
Bechtel is one of the biggest corporate winners of U.S. contracts to rebuild Iraq. Before the war ended, it received a $680 million contract to fix Iraq's electrical grids, water ports and more than 1,200 schools. In October, it won an additional $350 million contract to continue the electrical work.
Bechtel has stressed that the schools in question are a small percentage of schools it has fixed, working in extreme conditions that often put its employees' lives at risk. Company spokesman Francis Canavan said he had no knowledge of an Army investigation, and that "every school was signed off by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers."
According to Iraqi education officials, Bechtel budgeted about $20,000 per school for repairs. That budget may not seem like much compared to U.S. rates, but laborers here work for $2 to $7 a day. Bechtel subcontracted out the work to Iraqis for an undisclosed amount.
During repairs, "reports started coming in about poor quality," said 422nd Civil Affairs Battalion Maj. Linda Scharf, who was responsible for the schools in question, and who started fielding calls from concerned teachers and headmasters.
"So I asked one of my teams to go verify the rumors," Scharf said. "They took their digital camera, and the reality turned out to be worse than the rumors."
What they found: The subcontractors Bechtel hired left paint everywhere - on the floors, on desks, all over windows. The classrooms were filthy, the school's desks and chairs were thrown out into the playground and left, broken. Windows were left damaged, and bathrooms that were reportedly fixed were left in broken, unsanitary condition.
"Would you allow your child to use that bathroom? I wouldn't," Scharf said, pointing to a photograph of a stained, broken hole in a dirty, tiled stall.
1. trumptman is the only person that brought up the term police state, so his main point is an argument against a phantom.
He's such a numbnut he even posted the definition of 'police state' in bold. Go do a search for 'police' on the front page to see a prime example of an idiot arguing with himself. He's like a dog chasing his own tail.
2. Iraqi is micromanaged by a military. By its very nature it is going to be repressive. Of course, there are much better ways of going about this whole occupation. Much better. Arguing that it's not repressive is like arguing that cats lay eggs.
Originally posted by giant
There are two reasons why this conversation is so stupid.
1. trumptman is the only person that brought up the term police state, so his main point is an argument against a phantom.
Hahaha. Your right. Its actually quite funny/sad noone discovered that before now.