<strong>I just hope Apple doesn't go to something based on x86, because that is already outdated! A 1 gHz P4 on my Vaio is slower than my PowerBook G3!</strong><hr></blockquote>
"The roadmap on the PowerPC actually looks pretty good and there are some advantages to it. As an example, the PowerPC has something in it called AltiVec, we call the Velocity Engine -- it's a vector engine -- it dramatically accelerates media, much better than, as an example, then Intel processors or the AMD processors..."</strong><hr></blockquote>
From my perspective the most exciting part of that quote is the fact that I believe this is the first time Steve Jobs has actually referred to AMD processors when talking about the competition. Usually they only talk about Intel's offerings.
<strong>And their iPod engineering doesn?t impress me in the least. A $500 dollar toy whose lifetime is 1-2 years. It will be interesting to watch what will happen when the batteries start to die on all those iPod owners and they finally realize that their expensive toy is just a dead paperweight. <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
mika.</strong><hr></blockquote>
How do you figure? I am very happy with my 5 GB iPod. Heck, my father who travels to Asia and Europe and back (we live in the States) is happy with his 5 GB iPod. It does what advertised, and we are happy
Let's say you thought that Apple was going to move to x86 as soon as possible, like next March. Right now Apple is offering Shake users a promotion to double their existing Windows license into two for OS X if they buy two new PowerMacs.
If right now they are trying to get people to buy new PowerMacs, and then 9 months from now they offer a 3.3 GHZ Pentium Mac, Shake users are going to be awfully angry, They'ed have just bought a new Mac basically by force that is now pretty much outdated. Apple would have to offer a free crossgrade to the Mac x86 version of Shake which would undoubtedly come out. But since Apple would probably be the only x86 Mac vendor, users would have to buy ANOTHER Mac to take advantage of this.
I really am not that concerned - the performance of such a system would outweigh the lack of Altivec for the time being. A benefit of a G6, but I, for one, don't have that kind of patience. This is Motorola we're talking about - their predictions are off by a year at least. And in case you haven't heard, they are laying off people by the thousands.
So where is Apple going regarding processor? First a question. Do we think the PowerMac pictures are real, possibly just one of several prototypes, but real? If so, consider an outstanding feature, the massive cooling it has. It is there because it is absolutely necessary. Nobody does that for the fun of it. So, put that together with some facts we know.
1. Motorola PPC chips run cool. That is a nice thing about them, right? There would be no need for massive cooling with a Motorola G5, from what I've read.
2. The IBM Power4 has been written off by many in the past because it requires massive cooling, far beyond what a typical PowerMac enclosure can be expected to provide.
3. IBM is in business making special processors for others. Consider the PPC variant they make for the Game Cube. It was developed in cooperation with Nintendo.
4. Apple was searching for processor design talent more than a year ago.
5. IBM has worked on vector type architecture, which conceivably could be adapted to implement Velocity Engine instructions.
6. Apple buys many high end video companies, whose software needs real power to run. This stuff runs on SGI workstations now.
7. A Power4 type PPC processor could handle this new software very well.
So, do we believe that the new PowerMac has massive cooling? If so, get ready for the "G5" to be announced, along with the new case. The new case now with G4s staying nice and frigid. The G5 comes later, from IBM, based on Power4 and designed to Apple's specifications. The new case is "next generation G5 ready, with Turbine Cooling."
Let's say you thought that Apple was going to move to x86 as soon as possible, like next March. Right now Apple is offering Shake users a promotion to double their existing Windows license into two for OS X if they buy two new PowerMacs.
If right now they are trying to get people to buy new PowerMacs, and then 9 months from now they offer a 3.3 GHZ Pentium Mac, Shake users are going to be awfully angry, They'ed have just bought a new Mac basically by force that is now pretty much outdated. Apple would have to offer a free crossgrade to the Mac x86 version of Shake which would undoubtedly come out. But since Apple would probably be the only x86 Mac vendor, users would have to buy ANOTHER Mac to take advantage of this.</strong><hr></blockquote>
The kind of people that would be using shake would have to be buying new computers more often than every 9 months anyway, I doubt they would mind THAT much if they just had to have another scheduled update, but it was to x86 macs rather than PPC macs.
Apple knows what CPU they want to be using in 12-18 months. We can speculate from now until the next PowerMac, but if Apple doesn't know they better start filling out the Chapter 11 forms. I do hope they are changing to AMD(cause Mot sucks) and this is there way of breaking things to us gradually.
I think one point that has been overlooked in this thread(maybe not others, I'm new to this forum) is the fact that if the G5 is a 64 bit processor it will need an updated OS. The AMD Hammer needs special versions of Windows and Linux to run. Ether way once OS X is going to be screwed with to handle the new CPU.
However, biggest think that makes me think they will stick with the PPC platform is the Xserve. To me that would be the first think to switch to x86 because client don't care what the server is running, just as long as they can log on and get their files. And it's not intended for the Photoshop bunch and fewer third party app would have to be ported for it to be usefull.
<strong>Maybe we’ll be better off with Apple becoming strictly a software company</strong><hr></blockquote>
ive been thinkin bout this. what if apple did become a strictly software company. we would have our choice of processors (AMD/INTEL) our choice of motherboards with chipsets, etc etc, AND we would have the best OS in history, along with the best Apps for an OS ever made.
It be like Apple vs Microsoft, except this time they'll be on the same playing field, and now everyone hates microsoft and bill gates so much that they will support anyone against them.
I think one point that has been overlooked in this thread(maybe not others, I'm new to this forum) is the fact that if the G5 is a 64 bit processor it will need an updated OS. </strong><hr></blockquote>
I thought both SUN and IBM released 64 bit chips (years ago) and the current OS's of the time (Solaris 2.5) would run on it but only in 32-bit mode ie no actual benefit of a 64 bit processor. Solaris 7 (2.7) was meant to be pure 64 bit but was 1-2 years later.
jobs: "once our transition is complete, which i expect to be near the end of this year or sometime early next year, and we get the top 20 percent of our base and then the next 20 percent will come quickly after that
This sounds really good to me. The first part that i like is that "near the end of the year" part, which to me means macworld ny There is going to be a newprocessor or new design of some sort, or sometime early next year would coincide with the 6 month refresh cycle on new power macs.
The other part that sticks out is "the next 20 percent will come quickly after that" Sounds to me like mysf might have some killer products that people just have to buy.
Maybe i'm being optimistic. And yes, its an apple financial event and Steve's job is to sound optimistic and make them think apple is a really cool business that everyone should buy. But who knows, at the rate things are going right now, apple being moto's bitch and all that things don't look too good, but as soon as apple gives moto the boot, I'm expecting some really cool stuff from apple. There is going to be a lot less holding them back.
ive been thinkin bout this. what if apple did become a strictly software company. we would have our choice of processors (AMD/INTEL) our choice of motherboards with chipsets, etc etc, AND we would have the best OS in history, along with the best Apps for an OS ever made.
It be like Apple vs Microsoft, except this time they'll be on the same playing field, and now everyone hates microsoft and bill gates so much that they will support anyone against them.
hmmm... </strong><hr></blockquote>
Micro$oft would eat Apple alive.
Apple couldn't even make inroads into x86 boxes.....M$ has contracts with box makers that forbid them to sell boxes with anything other than Windows on them. That means that Dell MUST sell all of their computers with Windows, they don't have any choice, they can NOT sell boxes with any other OS, and they can NOT sell boxes without an OS...it's Windows or else. That's just one of many ways that Microsoft has fortified their monopoly. If they even THOUGHT that OS X was a threat to Windows dominance, the gloves would come off and M$ would start hitting below the belt, and Apple would be history faster than Dubya can say "they misunderestimated me".
It doesn't matter how superior OS X is, it could never compete with Windows because Micro$oft is a superior business. This is a capitalist society, and thus it isn't the best product that wins, but the best business that wins.
The only problem that i see with Ms vs Apple would be price. If apple could fix this problem, and have smokin hardware there would be no reason to stick with winders.
No G5s Motorola has shown to the public have Altivec, but that doesn't mean that they don't have a chip being made for Apple with altivec. Also, I understand that the e500 core is designed to be modular, so Moto can bolt on different parts to the core for whatever application they are targeting. Thus they could easily add Altivec to a desktop variant of the G5.
Not that they are, but it's a possibility. Apple has so much invested in Altivec that it's difficult to imagine them abandoning it unless they had something extremely powerful to take it's place. Something that would render Altivec obsolete. About the only thing I can think of that could do that is a Power 5 CPU from IBM that's orders of magnitude faster than the G4. I'm not holding my breath on that one.
Why Jobs commented that the company will have options after the OS X transition is beyond me. Those of you waiting for Apple to switch to AMD or Intel better wake up and smell the coffee. Unless AMD or Intel could offer a chip that allowed zero penalty PPC emulation, there's no way we're moving away from the PPC. (And have you ever heard of zero penalty emulation? It has never happened.) Furthermore, the fact of the matter is, even though OpenStep ran on a variety of platforms - including x86 - that doesn't mean OS X has the same flexibility.
For the sake of argument, however, even if Apple has up to date, internal versions of OS X Intel, that doesn't do the company any good if it wished to moved to x86. Apple is currently asking every Mac user out there to convert to Mac OS X completely, and that means Mac users are being asked to update all the software they use as well. Consequently, unless there was zero penalty PPC emulation, Apple would have a tremendously hard time switching over.
And even if all those applications simply had to be recompiled by developers in order to be native under OS X Intel (that's another big if) that still would mean another massive round of paid upgrades. Since people are sick enough over .mac, it's obvious they would go insane over another radical transition in such a short period of time. Apple's user base is not loyal enough to stomach yet another jarring platform change in less than five years. It's so highly improbable it's laughable.
<strong>I think one point that has been overlooked in this thread(maybe not others, I'm new to this forum) is the fact that if the G5 is a 64 bit processor it will need an updated OS. The AMD Hammer needs special versions of Windows and Linux to run. Ether way once OS X is going to be screwed with to handle the new CPU.</strong><hr></blockquote>The reason it has been overlooked is neither processor actually requires a new system to run. Both the hammer series and future PPC chips will be backward compatible and quite capable of running a 32-bit OS. The reason for updating the OS lies more in taking full advantage of the 64 bit processor rather than any requirement.
[quote]Originally posted by Eupfhoria:
<strong>
JD is actually right here.
Never thought I'd say that.</strong><hr></blockquote>Actually he isn't quite correct. Being the "best" business doesn't necessarily mean you will win the end of the day. It's very easy for an encumbent company to force a company out of the market or simply make it too difficult to succeed. There are meant to be watchdogs to prevent such practices but generally you find they are slow to act and do a rather poor job of it.
I'm not sure I'd ever classify Microsoft as the "best" business either. They certainly have a good business model for their market position but it definitely isn't the best. Any company that leaves a very good portion of their customer base looking for alternatives is ultimately in some trouble.
Success in the markets is often a case of more than just business-smarts.
Apple couldn't even make inroads into x86 boxes.....M$ has contracts with box makers that forbid them to sell boxes with anything other than Windows on them. That means that Dell MUST sell all of their computers with Windows, they don't have any choice, they can NOT sell boxes with any other OS, and they can NOT sell boxes without an OS...it's Windows or else. That's just one of many ways that Microsoft has fortified their monopoly. If they even THOUGHT that OS X was a threat to Windows dominance, the gloves would come off and M$ would start hitting below the belt, and Apple would be history faster than Dubya can say "they misunderestimated me".
It doesn't matter how superior OS X is, it could never compete with Windows because Micro$oft is a superior business. This is a capitalist society, and thus it isn't the best product that wins, but the best business that wins.</strong><hr></blockquote>
idunno.. the entire reason MS and apple made the agreement back in the 90's was cause apple was going under and needed money and MS wanted to be able to say to the government "were not a monopoly. look at apple."
and right now the entire country is just waiting and looking for MS to slip up. i highly doubt you will see MS pulling the same kinda crap to block other software makers like they used to have the liberty to do before.
as far as dell only being able to sell windows os. well right now their really isnt anything else that the average consumer would want other than windows. so theirs not really anyone to complain. if their was a superior OS that lots of ppl wanted, and the government saw MS pushing its weight around to squash it, there would be a MS split up before the end of the year.
Looks more and more likely that there will be no Power Mac G5.
So now we have the G6, POWER5 and a CORE2000-Derived CPU as the rumor-troll favourites.
Apple becoming purely a software company would suck. Their performance (and heatsinks -- PC heatsinks with 1/5 the mass perform better than the QS heatsinks) sucks, but their hardware design doesn't. Also, there is a minium level of graphics acceleration, firewire, AGP etc. etc. on the Mac platform, which would dissappear. Gaming on the Mac lives because every Mac can run the latest games. Not every PC can (4/6/8mb integrated graphics -- shudder)
Comments
<strong>I just hope Apple doesn't go to something based on x86, because that is already outdated! A 1 gHz P4 on my Vaio is slower than my PowerBook G3!</strong><hr></blockquote>
Isn't the lowest clockspeed P4 a 1.4 Ghz part?
<strong>Check this out:
Steve Jobs:
"The roadmap on the PowerPC actually looks pretty good and there are some advantages to it. As an example, the PowerPC has something in it called AltiVec, we call the Velocity Engine -- it's a vector engine -- it dramatically accelerates media, much better than, as an example, then Intel processors or the AMD processors..."</strong><hr></blockquote>
From my perspective the most exciting part of that quote is the fact that I believe this is the first time Steve Jobs has actually referred to AMD processors when talking about the competition. Usually they only talk about Intel's offerings.
w00t! recognize beotch!
<strong>And their iPod engineering doesn?t impress me in the least. A $500 dollar toy whose lifetime is 1-2 years. It will be interesting to watch what will happen when the batteries start to die on all those iPod owners and they finally realize that their expensive toy is just a dead paperweight. <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
mika.</strong><hr></blockquote>
How do you figure? I am very happy with my 5 GB iPod. Heck, my father who travels to Asia and Europe and back (we live in the States) is happy with his 5 GB iPod. It does what advertised, and we are happy
Let's say you thought that Apple was going to move to x86 as soon as possible, like next March. Right now Apple is offering Shake users a promotion to double their existing Windows license into two for OS X if they buy two new PowerMacs.
If right now they are trying to get people to buy new PowerMacs, and then 9 months from now they offer a 3.3 GHZ Pentium Mac, Shake users are going to be awfully angry, They'ed have just bought a new Mac basically by force that is now pretty much outdated. Apple would have to offer a free crossgrade to the Mac x86 version of Shake which would undoubtedly come out. But since Apple would probably be the only x86 Mac vendor, users would have to buy ANOTHER Mac to take advantage of this.
<strong>
From the horse's mouth, Apple is going to be following the PPC Roadmap for some time. G5?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yeah, but the G5 may not have altivec on it
Check out this link:
<a href="http://www.infinibandta.org/parchives/clippings/msg00072.html"; target="_blank">http://www.infinibandta.org/parchives/clippings/msg00072.html</a>;
Search for mpc8500...
<strong>
Yeah, but the G5 may not have altivec on it
Check out this link:</strong><hr></blockquote>
I really am not that concerned - the performance of such a system would outweigh the lack of Altivec for the time being. A benefit of a G6, but I, for one, don't have that kind of patience. This is Motorola we're talking about - their predictions are off by a year at least. And in case you haven't heard, they are laying off people by the thousands.
1. Motorola PPC chips run cool. That is a nice thing about them, right? There would be no need for massive cooling with a Motorola G5, from what I've read.
2. The IBM Power4 has been written off by many in the past because it requires massive cooling, far beyond what a typical PowerMac enclosure can be expected to provide.
3. IBM is in business making special processors for others. Consider the PPC variant they make for the Game Cube. It was developed in cooperation with Nintendo.
4. Apple was searching for processor design talent more than a year ago.
5. IBM has worked on vector type architecture, which conceivably could be adapted to implement Velocity Engine instructions.
6. Apple buys many high end video companies, whose software needs real power to run. This stuff runs on SGI workstations now.
7. A Power4 type PPC processor could handle this new software very well.
So, do we believe that the new PowerMac has massive cooling? If so, get ready for the "G5" to be announced, along with the new case. The new case now with G4s staying nice and frigid. The G5 comes later, from IBM, based on Power4 and designed to Apple's specifications. The new case is "next generation G5 ready, with Turbine Cooling."
<strong>I just had an interesting thought.
Let's say you thought that Apple was going to move to x86 as soon as possible, like next March. Right now Apple is offering Shake users a promotion to double their existing Windows license into two for OS X if they buy two new PowerMacs.
If right now they are trying to get people to buy new PowerMacs, and then 9 months from now they offer a 3.3 GHZ Pentium Mac, Shake users are going to be awfully angry, They'ed have just bought a new Mac basically by force that is now pretty much outdated. Apple would have to offer a free crossgrade to the Mac x86 version of Shake which would undoubtedly come out. But since Apple would probably be the only x86 Mac vendor, users would have to buy ANOTHER Mac to take advantage of this.</strong><hr></blockquote>
The kind of people that would be using shake would have to be buying new computers more often than every 9 months anyway, I doubt they would mind THAT much if they just had to have another scheduled update, but it was to x86 macs rather than PPC macs.
I think one point that has been overlooked in this thread(maybe not others, I'm new to this forum) is the fact that if the G5 is a 64 bit processor it will need an updated OS. The AMD Hammer needs special versions of Windows and Linux to run. Ether way once OS X is going to be screwed with to handle the new CPU.
However, biggest think that makes me think they will stick with the PPC platform is the Xserve. To me that would be the first think to switch to x86 because client don't care what the server is running, just as long as they can log on and get their files. And it's not intended for the Photoshop bunch and fewer third party app would have to be ported for it to be usefull.
<strong>Maybe we’ll be better off with Apple becoming strictly a software company</strong><hr></blockquote>
ive been thinkin bout this. what if apple did become a strictly software company. we would have our choice of processors (AMD/INTEL) our choice of motherboards with chipsets, etc etc, AND we would have the best OS in history, along with the best Apps for an OS ever made.
It be like Apple vs Microsoft, except this time they'll be on the same playing field, and now everyone hates microsoft and bill gates so much that they will support anyone against them.
hmmm...
<strong>
I think one point that has been overlooked in this thread(maybe not others, I'm new to this forum) is the fact that if the G5 is a 64 bit processor it will need an updated OS. </strong><hr></blockquote>
I thought both SUN and IBM released 64 bit chips (years ago) and the current OS's of the time (Solaris 2.5) would run on it but only in 32-bit mode ie no actual benefit of a 64 bit processor. Solaris 7 (2.7) was meant to be pure 64 bit but was 1-2 years later.
Apple could do the same.
Dobby
This sounds really good to me. The first part that i like is that "near the end of the year" part, which to me means macworld ny
The other part that sticks out is "the next 20 percent will come quickly after that" Sounds to me like mysf might have some killer products that people just have to buy.
Maybe i'm being optimistic. And yes, its an apple financial event and Steve's job
<strong>
ive been thinkin bout this. what if apple did become a strictly software company. we would have our choice of processors (AMD/INTEL) our choice of motherboards with chipsets, etc etc, AND we would have the best OS in history, along with the best Apps for an OS ever made.
It be like Apple vs Microsoft, except this time they'll be on the same playing field, and now everyone hates microsoft and bill gates so much that they will support anyone against them.
hmmm...
Micro$oft would eat Apple alive.
Apple couldn't even make inroads into x86 boxes.....M$ has contracts with box makers that forbid them to sell boxes with anything other than Windows on them. That means that Dell MUST sell all of their computers with Windows, they don't have any choice, they can NOT sell boxes with any other OS, and they can NOT sell boxes without an OS...it's Windows or else. That's just one of many ways that Microsoft has fortified their monopoly. If they even THOUGHT that OS X was a threat to Windows dominance, the gloves would come off and M$ would start hitting below the belt, and Apple would be history faster than Dubya can say "they misunderestimated me".
It doesn't matter how superior OS X is, it could never compete with Windows because Micro$oft is a superior business. This is a capitalist society, and thus it isn't the best product that wins, but the best business that wins.
<strong>
Yeah, but the G5 may not have altivec on it
Check out this link:
<a href="http://www.infinibandta.org/parchives/clippings/msg00072.html"; target="_blank">http://www.infinibandta.org/parchives/clippings/msg00072.html</a>;
Search for mpc8500...</strong><hr></blockquote>
No G5s Motorola has shown to the public have Altivec, but that doesn't mean that they don't have a chip being made for Apple with altivec. Also, I understand that the e500 core is designed to be modular, so Moto can bolt on different parts to the core for whatever application they are targeting. Thus they could easily add Altivec to a desktop variant of the G5.
Not that they are, but it's a possibility. Apple has so much invested in Altivec that it's difficult to imagine them abandoning it unless they had something extremely powerful to take it's place. Something that would render Altivec obsolete. About the only thing I can think of that could do that is a Power 5 CPU from IBM that's orders of magnitude faster than the G4. I'm not holding my breath on that one.
<strong>
This is a capitalist society, and thus it isn't the best product that wins, but the best business that wins.</strong><hr></blockquote>
JD is actually right here.
Never thought I'd say that.
For the sake of argument, however, even if Apple has up to date, internal versions of OS X Intel, that doesn't do the company any good if it wished to moved to x86. Apple is currently asking every Mac user out there to convert to Mac OS X completely, and that means Mac users are being asked to update all the software they use as well. Consequently, unless there was zero penalty PPC emulation, Apple would have a tremendously hard time switching over.
And even if all those applications simply had to be recompiled by developers in order to be native under OS X Intel (that's another big if) that still would mean another massive round of paid upgrades. Since people are sick enough over .mac, it's obvious they would go insane over another radical transition in such a short period of time. Apple's user base is not loyal enough to stomach yet another jarring platform change in less than five years. It's so highly improbable it's laughable.
<strong>I think one point that has been overlooked in this thread(maybe not others, I'm new to this forum) is the fact that if the G5 is a 64 bit processor it will need an updated OS. The AMD Hammer needs special versions of Windows and Linux to run. Ether way once OS X is going to be screwed with to handle the new CPU.</strong><hr></blockquote>The reason it has been overlooked is neither processor actually requires a new system to run. Both the hammer series and future PPC chips will be backward compatible and quite capable of running a 32-bit OS. The reason for updating the OS lies more in taking full advantage of the 64 bit processor rather than any requirement.
[quote]Originally posted by Eupfhoria:
<strong>
JD is actually right here.
Never thought I'd say that.</strong><hr></blockquote>Actually he isn't quite correct. Being the "best" business doesn't necessarily mean you will win the end of the day. It's very easy for an encumbent company to force a company out of the market or simply make it too difficult to succeed. There are meant to be watchdogs to prevent such practices but generally you find they are slow to act and do a rather poor job of it.
I'm not sure I'd ever classify Microsoft as the "best" business either. They certainly have a good business model for their market position but it definitely isn't the best. Any company that leaves a very good portion of their customer base looking for alternatives is ultimately in some trouble.
Success in the markets is often a case of more than just business-smarts.
[ 07-26-2002: Message edited by: Telomar ]</p>
<strong>
Micro$oft would eat Apple alive.
Apple couldn't even make inroads into x86 boxes.....M$ has contracts with box makers that forbid them to sell boxes with anything other than Windows on them. That means that Dell MUST sell all of their computers with Windows, they don't have any choice, they can NOT sell boxes with any other OS, and they can NOT sell boxes without an OS...it's Windows or else. That's just one of many ways that Microsoft has fortified their monopoly. If they even THOUGHT that OS X was a threat to Windows dominance, the gloves would come off and M$ would start hitting below the belt, and Apple would be history faster than Dubya can say "they misunderestimated me".
It doesn't matter how superior OS X is, it could never compete with Windows because Micro$oft is a superior business. This is a capitalist society, and thus it isn't the best product that wins, but the best business that wins.</strong><hr></blockquote>
idunno.. the entire reason MS and apple made the agreement back in the 90's was cause apple was going under and needed money and MS wanted to be able to say to the government "were not a monopoly. look at apple."
and right now the entire country is just waiting and looking for MS to slip up. i highly doubt you will see MS pulling the same kinda crap to block other software makers like they used to have the liberty to do before.
as far as dell only being able to sell windows os. well right now their really isnt anything else that the average consumer would want other than windows. so theirs not really anyone to complain. if their was a superior OS that lots of ppl wanted, and the government saw MS pushing its weight around to squash it, there would be a MS split up before the end of the year.
So now we have the G6, POWER5 and a CORE2000-Derived CPU as the rumor-troll favourites.
Apple becoming purely a software company would suck. Their performance (and heatsinks -- PC heatsinks with 1/5 the mass perform better than the QS heatsinks) sucks, but their hardware design doesn't. Also, there is a minium level of graphics acceleration, firewire, AGP etc. etc. on the Mac platform, which would dissappear. Gaming on the Mac lives because every Mac can run the latest games. Not every PC can (4/6/8mb integrated graphics -- shudder)
Barto