Just consider the outcry if Apple had been using Intel chips. Only a 400 MHz Jump in 12 months (13%)!!! Those lucky sods running IBM chips have increased 500 MHz (25%) in the same time...
There would be no outcry. A lot has happened to the P4 along the way--hyperthreading, 800MHz FSB, and monster L3 cache (EE). Most benchmarks say clock-for-clock, performance has improved by up to 20-30% with these enhancements--Intel is at the equivalent of 4GHz in terms of the older 533Hz FSB hyperthreading-lacking P4s.
I love Apple's OS but their hardware is overpriced and underperforming.
IBM has NEVER stated the 970fx would go above 2.5Ghz.
As for Intel
P4 Extreme- Outrageously priced. They jack up ondie cache to make up for an IPC that's dropping like a rock as they crank the pipeline up and up. Branch Predection can only get so good.
Hyperthreading- can actually degrade performance.
I think it's telling that Intel cancelled millions if not billions in prep work for Tejas and it's successor. Nay Intel has hit the wall harder than IBM or AMD has done. We could have seen this coming with their frenzy on clock speed.
Shite if anyone thinks that Apple's hardware is underperforming then they obviously didn't go see the Production Seminar. I swear to you I saw excellent HD footage getting tossed around in FCP like it was nothing. Multiple streams dragged around while still playing.
The only people complaining about speed are running crap code like Photoshop or Microsloth products. Apples hardware is pretty damn speedy if a developer take ANY care in developing.
Your post has made me seriously reconsider if it's worth it to switch.
There's no doubt that the P.C. side has some fast gear. The problem is, it all relies on an operating system that's almost 5 years old, and won;t be updated for another 2-3 years. On top of that, their next OS, longhorn won't even be able to run on any of that Alien gear.
People are venting because they really wanted to believe that Apple would be at 3Ghz right now.
I have to disagree. I think most people knew for a while now we were not going to get 3Ghz. They are disgusted that after a whole year Apple has not taken the opportunity to improve on other aspects of the system.
There's no doubt that the P.C. side has some fast gear. The problem is, it all relies on an operating system that's almost 5 years old, and won;t be updated for another 2-3 years.
XP is less than 3 years old, not five. Even Windows 2000, on which XP is based upon, is not 4 years old yet.
Quote:
On top of that, their next OS, longhorn won't even be able to run on any of that Alien gear.
Utter FUD. Longhorn will run on practically anything modern (Penitum 2+ with sufficient RAM). For all the gooey features, one does need 8x AGP and a Direct X9 128MB video card, both qualifications the Alienware meets.
But it is Apple's fault that the rest of this 'upgrade' is a rather lackluster affair. Is this really all they can conjure up in 12 months?
Still only 2 internal HD bays?
Still only 1 internal CD drive bay?
Still no ECC memory, not even as an option (heck, Apple has that knowhow since it's being used in Xserves)?
Still an ATI 9600 as the standard 'high-end' graphics card?
Still no PCI express?
Still neither AirPort nor Bluetooth as standard config (like with the PowerBooks)?
Still only one FireWire 800 port?
What about dual layer DVD burners as BTO option?
Or 10.000rpm HDs?
None of these can be blamed on IBM.
What is Apple doing with all the millions spent on R&D? Back to the 'good old' Apple days? Where dozens of products are being developed for loads of money - yet all get scrapped? Like Jobs admitted they did with the Apple PDA?
Think about it, in the last 12(!) months, the only really new hardware products Apple introduced were the iPod mini (and that might not count) and AirPort Express (and that might not count either). The rest were basically just speed bumps of existing products.
I suspect Apple's "Liquid Cooling" is probably Fluinert or something along those lines. I also wonder if the pump is going to make any kind of objectionable noise.
Onlooker... damn boy, you must be made of money if you're going with an Alienware rig. A DIY box would probaly lop $1500 off that price.
That said, Alienware does have a cool rig coming out in the fall. It's a high end ALX series that has two PCI-E x16 slots that can work in "SLI" mode. They call it Video Array and the concept is quite interesting.
Man, this thread is taking a beating today... in more ways than one.
As a 3d guy, who has been hanging to see what would happen with the g5 revisions, I can now safely say... I'm getting a PC for my 3d machine. Besides the fact that I want a better video card than what the g5 is offering, I can also gat a fat PC for only 3k, compared to the "entry" g5 price of 3.5K.. with the money left over I can get myself one of the new 12in iBook's for all my other computing needs.
Man, this thread is taking a beating today... in more ways than one.
As a 3d guy, who has been hanging to see what would happen with the g5 revisions, I can now safely say... I'm getting a PC for my 3d machine. Besides the fact that I want a better video card than what the g5 is offering, I can also gat a fat PC for only 3k, compared to the "entry" g5 price of 3.5K.. with the money left over I can get myself one of the new 12in iBook's for all my other computing needs.
Les.
I recently built a nice PC for 2900 AUD ($2K US) and it rocks:
Looks like Apple designed it since it's nothing like liquid cooling as it is known on the PC side of things.
"Water cooling" implys that it's using a waterblock to cool the processor, chipset, graphics, etc. when it's really only cooling the heatsink:
True watercooling would be a lot more efficient than heatsink watercooling - that's why the G5 still has fans in front of the procs.
No, the picture is just a little confusing. Do you see those 2 "circles" with G5 written on them ... those are the processors, so the cooling is going through them as well.
I feel uncomfortable stepping out of character, but I'm not convinced that there are better workstations at the same price.
The major failing is the lack of HDD bays. So let's put that aside for a second and look only at performance.
Yes you can get some pretty fast hardware for PM money, systems built with quality components with good I/O, fast stuff. However, unless you test the system, you really don't know what speed you're getting, sorry. There are 3.2Ghz systems and there are 3.2Ghz systems. There's a lot of stuff out there with a fast chip on an otherwise not so fast machine. That's great for consumer stuff (which you have to consider fast for the price, and it kicks the snot out of something like an iMac).
But if you test top shelf PC stuff against these macs, what will the real differences in price and performance be?
I imagine that these macs are right where they need to be for the people that buy these types of set-up.
The RAM slots are significant. Merely populating all of them will probably boost performance. You may not be seeing huge performance boosts 'cause you aren't dealing with a lot of 64 bit software, yet. But you will. I'd rather swap 8GB out of RAM than off a RAID.
Why? Other than a Quadro FX4000 there's nothing that makes me think I want to spend $5k on a PC. Are you into 3D?
Other than the Quadro FX 4000 there is all the room for expandability, (another optical drive bay is there, and when Tyan updates their motherboards to PCIe I can start swapping, and selling parts. If I want I can probably keep upgrading that computer there with new motherboards, and processors for years for 1/4th the cost of what it would cost to maintain a Mac with specs like that.
I'll probably be able to plug 3GHz AMD processors right into that motherboard there. You can't do that on a Mac the day IBM has new processors ready you can't just order them up, and throw them in. I'm actually pretty happy to move away from the Mac for a spell while they sort out their problems.
I have to disagree. I think most people knew for a while now we were not going to get 3Ghz. They are disgusted that after a whole year Apple has not taken the opportunity to improve on other aspects of the system.
What PCI Express? Intel created the damn thing and they're not even shipping it yet. Apple likely finalized the HW months ago. I'll be happy if they fixed the FW800 write issue and USB 2.0. Most of the people venting have no clue what it takes logistically to launch updates.
Again Mac users with unrealistic expectations lead to these bytch fests. The majority of users don't care about dual optical drives or freakin 10 drive bays. I'm disappointed about the 3d cards but I find it fishy that the new Monitors weren't announced yet and even more interesting that they may be DVI. Methinks my #1 complaint will be taken care of shortly.
No, the picture is just a little confusing. Do you see those 2 "circles" with G5 written on them ... those are the processors, so the cooling is going through them as well.
Ah, I see. Thanks for pointing that out to me.
I guess I misunderstood it. Thank you.
Quote:
Originally posted by onlooker
Oops.. Somebody did a no no.
Why would that be a no no? I seen links to every imaginable place on the 'net here on AI. I don't see a problem. If you do, PM me and we discuss.
Comments
Originally posted by Stecs
Just consider the outcry if Apple had been using Intel chips. Only a 400 MHz Jump in 12 months (13%)!!! Those lucky sods running IBM chips have increased 500 MHz (25%) in the same time...
There would be no outcry. A lot has happened to the P4 along the way--hyperthreading, 800MHz FSB, and monster L3 cache (EE). Most benchmarks say clock-for-clock, performance has improved by up to 20-30% with these enhancements--Intel is at the equivalent of 4GHz in terms of the older 533Hz FSB hyperthreading-lacking P4s.
I love Apple's OS but their hardware is overpriced and underperforming.
Your post has made me seriously reconsider if it's worth it to switch.
Why? Other than a Quadro FX4000 there's nothing that makes me think I want to spend $5k on a PC. Are you into 3D?
What roadmaps? Post one as a visual reference. Don't just expect people to believe you. H3ll I don't even know you!
http://www.fz-juelich.de/zam/files/d...4_arch.2up.pdf
or the US
http://www-306.ibm.com/chips/products/powerpc/rdmap/
IBM has NEVER stated the 970fx would go above 2.5Ghz.
As for Intel
P4 Extreme- Outrageously priced. They jack up ondie cache to make up for an IPC that's dropping like a rock as they crank the pipeline up and up. Branch Predection can only get so good.
Hyperthreading- can actually degrade performance.
I think it's telling that Intel cancelled millions if not billions in prep work for Tejas and it's successor. Nay Intel has hit the wall harder than IBM or AMD has done. We could have seen this coming with their frenzy on clock speed.
Shite if anyone thinks that Apple's hardware is underperforming then they obviously didn't go see the Production Seminar. I swear to you I saw excellent HD footage getting tossed around in FCP like it was nothing. Multiple streams dragged around while still playing.
The only people complaining about speed are running crap code like Photoshop or Microsloth products. Apples hardware is pretty damn speedy if a developer take ANY care in developing.
IT IS NOT APPLE'S FAULT IBM COULDN'T DELIVER!!!
s/IBM/Motorola/ and rewind a year or two...
Originally posted by SwitchingSoon
Your post has made me seriously reconsider if it's worth it to switch.
There's no doubt that the P.C. side has some fast gear. The problem is, it all relies on an operating system that's almost 5 years old, and won;t be updated for another 2-3 years. On top of that, their next OS, longhorn won't even be able to run on any of that Alien gear.
Originally posted by applenut
stretching the chip to the max?
i sure as hell hope not as the 2.5Ghz is the first chip of the next generation
I thought the 975 was the next gen?
Originally posted by hmurchison
People are venting because they really wanted to believe that Apple would be at 3Ghz right now.
I have to disagree. I think most people knew for a while now we were not going to get 3Ghz. They are disgusted that after a whole year Apple has not taken the opportunity to improve on other aspects of the system.
Originally posted by the cool gut
There's no doubt that the P.C. side has some fast gear. The problem is, it all relies on an operating system that's almost 5 years old, and won;t be updated for another 2-3 years.
XP is less than 3 years old, not five. Even Windows 2000, on which XP is based upon, is not 4 years old yet.
On top of that, their next OS, longhorn won't even be able to run on any of that Alien gear.
Utter FUD. Longhorn will run on practically anything modern (Penitum 2+ with sufficient RAM). For all the gooey features, one does need 8x AGP and a Direct X9 128MB video card, both qualifications the Alienware meets.
Originally posted by mello
Is the liquid cooling system on the new 2.5ghz macs using that technology
from Cooligy or was it whipped up by Apple directly?
Looks like Apple designed it since it's nothing like liquid cooling as it is known on the PC side of things.
"Water cooling" implys that it's using a waterblock to cool the processor, chipset, graphics, etc. when it's really only cooling the heatsink:
True watercooling would be a lot more efficient than heatsink watercooling - that's why the G5 still has fans in front of the procs.
IT IS NOT APPLE'S FAULT IBM COULDN'T DELIVER!!!
Absolutely true!
But it is Apple's fault that the rest of this 'upgrade' is a rather lackluster affair. Is this really all they can conjure up in 12 months?
Still only 2 internal HD bays?
Still only 1 internal CD drive bay?
Still no ECC memory, not even as an option (heck, Apple has that knowhow since it's being used in Xserves)?
Still an ATI 9600 as the standard 'high-end' graphics card?
Still no PCI express?
Still neither AirPort nor Bluetooth as standard config (like with the PowerBooks)?
Still only one FireWire 800 port?
What about dual layer DVD burners as BTO option?
Or 10.000rpm HDs?
None of these can be blamed on IBM.
What is Apple doing with all the millions spent on R&D? Back to the 'good old' Apple days? Where dozens of products are being developed for loads of money - yet all get scrapped? Like Jobs admitted they did with the Apple PDA?
Think about it, in the last 12(!) months, the only really new hardware products Apple introduced were the iPod mini (and that might not count) and AirPort Express (and that might not count either). The rest were basically just speed bumps of existing products.
Hmmm...
Onlooker... damn boy, you must be made of money if you're going with an Alienware rig. A DIY box would probaly lop $1500 off that price.
That said, Alienware does have a cool rig coming out in the fall. It's a high end ALX series that has two PCI-E x16 slots that can work in "SLI" mode. They call it Video Array and the concept is quite interesting.
Cheers,
C.
As a 3d guy, who has been hanging to see what would happen with the g5 revisions, I can now safely say... I'm getting a PC for my 3d machine. Besides the fact that I want a better video card than what the g5 is offering, I can also gat a fat PC for only 3k, compared to the "entry" g5 price of 3.5K.. with the money left over I can get myself one of the new 12in iBook's for all my other computing needs.
Les.
Originally posted by les t
Man, this thread is taking a beating today... in more ways than one.
As a 3d guy, who has been hanging to see what would happen with the g5 revisions, I can now safely say... I'm getting a PC for my 3d machine. Besides the fact that I want a better video card than what the g5 is offering, I can also gat a fat PC for only 3k, compared to the "entry" g5 price of 3.5K.. with the money left over I can get myself one of the new 12in iBook's for all my other computing needs.
Les.
I recently built a nice PC for 2900 AUD ($2K US) and it rocks:
AMD Athlon 64 3400+
MSI K8T Neo-FIS2R
9800XT
1 Gig Corsair TwinX1024-3200LLPro
2 WD Raptor's (74Gig, 10K RPM, RAID 0)
Samsung SP1614N 160GB Hard Drive
Plextor PX-708A DVD-RW
LiteOn 52X CD-RW
Audigy 2 ZS Platinum Pro
Antec True480 power supply
Cooler Master Wave Master case
But, a couple of days ago, I killed my little PowerBook!
Having the best, inexpensive hardware is great, but you may miss OS X greatly - I'm stuck with my gaming rig at home and I'm unhappy!
XP is the best OS that MS has produced, but it ain't no OS X. Not by a longshot.
Originally posted by Cake
Looks like Apple designed it since it's nothing like liquid cooling as it is known on the PC side of things.
"Water cooling" implys that it's using a waterblock to cool the processor, chipset, graphics, etc. when it's really only cooling the heatsink:
True watercooling would be a lot more efficient than heatsink watercooling - that's why the G5 still has fans in front of the procs.
No, the picture is just a little confusing. Do you see those 2 "circles" with G5 written on them ... those are the processors, so the cooling is going through them as well.
Originally posted by Cake
I killed my little PowerBook!
What is that? another appl;einsider forum?
The major failing is the lack of HDD bays. So let's put that aside for a second and look only at performance.
Yes you can get some pretty fast hardware for PM money, systems built with quality components with good I/O, fast stuff. However, unless you test the system, you really don't know what speed you're getting, sorry. There are 3.2Ghz systems and there are 3.2Ghz systems. There's a lot of stuff out there with a fast chip on an otherwise not so fast machine. That's great for consumer stuff (which you have to consider fast for the price, and it kicks the snot out of something like an iMac).
But if you test top shelf PC stuff against these macs, what will the real differences in price and performance be?
I imagine that these macs are right where they need to be for the people that buy these types of set-up.
The RAM slots are significant. Merely populating all of them will probably boost performance. You may not be seeing huge performance boosts 'cause you aren't dealing with a lot of 64 bit software, yet. But you will. I'd rather swap 8GB out of RAM than off a RAID.
Originally posted by hmurchison
Why? Other than a Quadro FX4000 there's nothing that makes me think I want to spend $5k on a PC. Are you into 3D?
Other than the Quadro FX 4000 there is all the room for expandability, (another optical drive bay is there, and when Tyan updates their motherboards to PCIe I can start swapping, and selling parts. If I want I can probably keep upgrading that computer there with new motherboards, and processors for years for 1/4th the cost of what it would cost to maintain a Mac with specs like that.
I'll probably be able to plug 3GHz AMD processors right into that motherboard there. You can't do that on a Mac the day IBM has new processors ready you can't just order them up, and throw them in. I'm actually pretty happy to move away from the Mac for a spell while they sort out their problems.
I have to disagree. I think most people knew for a while now we were not going to get 3Ghz. They are disgusted that after a whole year Apple has not taken the opportunity to improve on other aspects of the system.
What PCI Express? Intel created the damn thing and they're not even shipping it yet. Apple likely finalized the HW months ago. I'll be happy if they fixed the FW800 write issue and USB 2.0. Most of the people venting have no clue what it takes logistically to launch updates.
Again Mac users with unrealistic expectations lead to these bytch fests. The majority of users don't care about dual optical drives or freakin 10 drive bays. I'm disappointed about the 3d cards but I find it fishy that the new Monitors weren't announced yet and even more interesting that they may be DVI. Methinks my #1 complaint will be taken care of shortly.
Originally posted by the cool gut
No, the picture is just a little confusing. Do you see those 2 "circles" with G5 written on them ... those are the processors, so the cooling is going through them as well.
Ah, I see. Thanks for pointing that out to me.
I guess I misunderstood it. Thank you.
Originally posted by onlooker
Oops.. Somebody did a no no.
Why would that be a no no? I seen links to every imaginable place on the 'net here on AI. I don't see a problem. If you do, PM me and we discuss.