While I agree that people shouldn't generally act like idiots (who can disagree with that?), the clips in the bush video are perfectly acceptable in their original contexts. Clipping only the more passionate moments and interspersing them with passionate Hitler clips is not acceptable. Is the Bush campaign responsible for that? Of course they are.
Context?
LOL...
You think Bush and friends care about context? We're relying on them to honestly represent the other side?
No, we need to, oh, I don't know, not get flustered, red faced, with spittle flying, podium thumping just in case the other side might take the low road and make a highlight clip of this to make us look like ranting maniacs?
Hey, I know it's boring. But I'd rather a few boring but honorable, well thought out speeches than a 5 -10 second clip of "yet another raving Democrat's speech that cost him the election" looping on CNN for the next 4 years...
Anyway, here's a bumper-sticker for the Dems:
"Better to be compared to Hitler for public speaking style than for policy decisions."
The subtext is very clear - there are men speaking in loud voices on TV - Gore, Hitler, Dean, Moore, Gephardt, Hitler again, Kerry. The ad is entitled "the faces of the Democratic party." I don't usually go for the deconstructionist approach, but you have to be quite objective and distant not to see the similar way Hitler's speech is presented with the Democrats'. The juxtaposition of Hitler and his voice with the Democrats and their voices just hits you in the face.
And although the Hitler ad was beyond the pale, it was submitted by some anonymous person to an open ad contest. There was nothing wrong with any of the other speeches. I remember when Kerry said that, and he was smiling and laughing when he did. They cut the clip right before the humor was evident - and I think the humor was evident even in the clip it showed. Gore was giving a rousing speech to a rambunctious crowd, Moore wasn't saying anything any op-ed writers say every day, etc. It was the Hitler clip that provided the glue to the whole ad, which is why they dispersed the Hitler shots among the Democrats. The other clips alone would have meant nothing without the Hitler interspersed in there.
BRussell I have to disagree with you here. Having watched that clip a couple times, they do much more than just show Hitler speaking in that ad. They play enough in each clip to show how the clip was attempting to link Hitler to Bush in both instances. Both clips show Hitler morphing to Bush. Also in the first clip, Hitler isn't even speaking. Hitler it is a stylistic linking via the red and black color imposed on Bush and Hitler. The words about war crimes being foreign policy flash on top, and the clip is even long enough to show it was submitted to Moveon.org
If the clips had not left in the morphs to Bush, I would gladly see your point. However they left in the morphing to Bush and it shows what the Democrats were doing. It doesn't attempt to link to their speaking style to Hitler, but rather show how over the top their rhetoric is regarding Bush.
While I agree that people shouldn't generally act like idiots (who can disagree with that?), the clips in the bush video are perfectly acceptable in their original contexts. Clipping only the more passionate moments and interspersing them with passionate Hitler clips is not acceptable. Is the Bush campaign responsible for that? Of course they are.
Yes remember folks. Using video clips out of context is only acceptable if you are attempting to make a documenta...
It doesn't attempt to link to their speaking style to Hitler, but rather show how over the top their rhetoric is regarding Bush.
It argues both in my view. You honestly see no comparsions --no similarities-- between those conveniently edited clips of Democrats and Hitler? That's astounding. How can I help you see this?
It argues both in my view. You honestly see no comparsions --no similarities-- between those conveniently edited clips of Democrats and Hitler? That's astounding. How can I help you see this?
I'm sorry, but anyone ranting at a podium is inherently Hitlerian in style if not intent, be it Bush or Gore or Nader, etc.
Clearly the ads shows how the anti-Bush crowd (if only Symbolman) had compared Bush to Hitler and the rest is showing the opposition at the height of their rhetoric and emotion, which, to the type of modest Americans that Bush is going after, will appear "dangerous" and "out of control" and "unfit for leadership" etc.
The reality and the context are irrelevant. Look, for the most part Bush is preaching to the converted. Showing any of these guys speaking as they normally do "in their element" is, to the Bush crowd, going to look over the top and even radical or hateful.
All Bush has to do is let the footage roll. Of course (thankfully) it works both ways, as Moore well knows. There's plenty of ammo for both sides.
But as far as seeing Hitler in the speakers' speeches/tirades, methinks thou dost protest too much. Or Hitler is in the eye of the beholder.
It's true that one can compare, but that does not mean there is an actual comparison being done - unlike Symbolman literal comparison. But if Democrats can incidentally seem to look like a bunch of raving Hitlers while simultaneously showing how "they" tried to compare him to Hitler, even better (to Bush). I'm sure he's happy if someone reads that into it. But there is no active comparison being done.
What is sad is that the people shown couldn't refrain from providing Bush with such footage. They should have known better.
I'm sorry, but anyone ranting at a podium is inherently Hitlerian in style if not intent, be it Bush or Gore or Nader, etc.
Clearly the ads shows how the anti-Bush crowd (if only Symbolman) had compared Bush to Hitler and the rest is showing the opposition at the height of their rhetoric and emotion, which, to the type of modest Americans that Bush is going after, will appear "dangerous" and "out of control" and "unfit for leadership" etc.
The reality and the context are irrelevant. Look, for the most part Bush is preaching to the converted. Showing any of these guys speaking as they normally do "in their element" is, to the Bush crowd, going to look over the top and even radical or hateful.
All Bush has to do is let the footage roll. Of course (thankfully) it works both ways, as Moore well knows. There's plenty of ammo for both sides.
But as far as seeing Hitler in the speakers' speeches/tirades, methinks thou dost protest too much. Or Hitler is in the eye of the beholder.
It's true that one can compare, but that does not mean there is an actual comparison being done - unlike Symbolman literal comparison. But if Democrats can incidentally seem to look like a bunch of raving Hitlers while simultaneously showing how "they" tried to compare him to Hitler, even better (to Bush). I'm sure he's happy if someone reads that into it. But there is no active comparison being done.
What is sad is that the people shown couldn't refrain from providing Bush with such footage. They should have known better.
The simple act of ranting in no way makes a man akin to Hitler. If you believe that ranting is all that is required to 'Hitlarian' then you need to look over the wording in some of Adolfs empassioned speaches be they from 1933 or 1940.
The simple fact of the matter is the neocons had a field day when the Hitler clip was found on MoveOn. Now the neocons (these guys are not my republican party) are using said same footage to advance their political careers. You click on a picture of Kerry to see the flick. Democrats are pained as raving loons in 5 second cuts with images of Nazi Germany mixed in. At the end, as I've already said, the Kerry fade out... The ad is trying to imply democrats are akin to Nazi Germany propaganda plain and simple.
This line you have about the speaches being the problem is wrongheaded also. These guys are pissed at the way or country is headed. These guys have been painted as spineless liberals since Nixon. They start showing some backbone and you believe that is wrong? These angry ex-politicians are expressing the rage that Kerry cannot. Kerry is advancing his agenda day by day (though the news is barely covering it) while the has-beens are bolstering the image of liberals as less than spineless. The Bush ad is targeted at his audience but that doesn't mitigate the hypocricy of by any means. The ad, as pfflam said, is ment to paint the dems as Nazis via propaganda using Bush's money on Bush's own reelection site.
"How DARE they...drag the GOOD name...of the United States of America...through the MUD...of Saddam Hussein's TORTURE PRISON!"
(cheers)
CUT:
---
WHAT WERE WAR CRIMES IN 1945
(Hitler profile in blood red)
"Sieg heil! Sieg heil!"
CROSSFADE:
FOREIGN POLICY IN 2003
(Bush with hand raised in blood red)
(Sound from Hitler clip still ringing out)
CROSSFADE:
(Blood red)
SPONSORED BY
MOVEON.ORG
---
CUT:
Dean:
"I want my COUNTRY back!"
CUT:
Moore:
"We live in a time...where we have a man...sending us to war...for fictious reasons." (boos/crowd noises/claps)
CUT:
Gephardt:
"This president is a MISERABLE failure." (pointing)
CUT:
---
Hitler pictures, arm raised
(Hitler speaking German)
Subtitle: God told me to strike at Al Qaida and I struck them.
CROSSFADE:
Bush picture, arm raised
(Hitler speaking German)
Subtitle: And then he told me to strike at Saddam, which I did.
---
CUT:
Gore:
"He BETRAYED this country!!" (cheers) "HE PLAYED ON OUR FEARS!" (cheers)
CUT:
Kerry:
"Today...today George Bush will lay off your camel, tax your shovel, kick your (bleep) and tell ya there is no promised land."
(cheers)
FADE:
Caption: "This is not a time for pessimism and rage..."
FADE:
Bush picture
(piano clip)
Caption:
"President Bush
It's time for optimism, steady leadership, and progress
Paid for By Bush-Cheney '04, Inc."
------------------------
The only crossfades were from Hitler into Bush from "Symbolman"'s piece.
The quick-cut juxtaposition of Gore/Gephardt to Hitler is not the point of the piece. I have no doubt that it was welcomed, a sneaky way of playing two can play that, but it is not overt as was Symbolman's piece - nor could it be since they are claiming the moral high-ground (even if wrongly to us).
The problem is that, since the Left "went there" (if only Symbolman) the simple act of showing snippets of his piece and the other speeches does all the talking for Bush. It says to his supporters "this is what the Left/Democrats/radicals thinks of me/us/our country/your choice of leader" and has the effect of panicking them into voting for Bush or else risk having the country fall apart (as his rhetoric would have it).
The simple act of ranting in no way makes a man akin to Hitler. If you believe that ranting is all that is required to 'Hitlarian' then you need to look over the wording in some of Adolfs empassioned speaches be they from 1933 or 1940.
The simple fact of the matter is the neocons had a field day when the Hitler clip was found on MoveOn. Now the neocons (these guys are not my republican party) are using said same footage to advance their political careers. You click on a picture of Kerry to see the flick. Democrats are pained as raving loons in 5 second cuts with images of Nazi Germany mixed in. At the end, as I've already said, the Kerry fade out... The ad is trying to imply democrats are akin to Nazi Germany propaganda plain and simple.
This line you have about the speaches being the problem is wrongheaded also. These guys are pissed at the way or country is headed. These guys have been painted as spineless liberals since Nixon. They start showing some backbone and you believe that is wrong? These angry ex-politicians are expressing the rage that Kerry cannot. Kerry is advancing his agenda day by day (though the news is barely covering it) while the has-beens are bolstering the image of liberals as less than spineless. The Bush ad is targeted at his audience but that doesn't mitigate the hypocricy of by any means. The ad, as pfflam said, is ment to paint the dems as Nazis via propaganda using Bush's money on Bush's own reelection site.
Sigh...oh my god.
1. I know "the simple act of ranting in no way makes a man akin to Hitler." I didn't say that. I said "ranting at a podium is inherently Hitlerian in style"...IN STYLE. Like raising your arm in a stiff salute is inherently Hitlerian in style (if ignoring the fact it was used in other contexts). It's a cliché. An easy, if too-scurrilous and lazy way to villify an opponent.
2. I DON'T "believe that ranting is all that is required to 'Hitlarian'" I know full well the details of his writings and speeches and the history involved. This is precisely why it isn't a comparison to be made lightly.
"You click on a picture of Kerry to see the flick." So what? Why wouldn't they use a picture of Kerry for a piece called 'John Kerry's Democratic Party"?
"Democrats are painted as raving loons in 5 second cuts with images of Nazi Germany mixed in." First, it matters not what the context was but that they acted like that for whatever reason. Why give Bush ammo? Second, the Nazi imagery was explicitly and plainly depicting BUSH AS HITLER (as told by Symbolman).
At the end, as I've already said, the Kerry fade out... The ad is trying to imply democrats are akin to Nazi Germany propaganda plain and simple.
I'm appalled that you've put me in the unavoidable, odious position of actually having to defend Bush, but I refuse to say the sky is pink and green polkadots just to get Kerry elected, but all the ad does is capitalize on a poor choice of analogy on Symbolman's part (outrageous to most people, if not accurate in part), moveon.org's stupidity for not telling him to remove their name from his work, and the various speakers' inability to remember that the camera is watching and videotape never forgets. They should always project rational, statesmanlike attitudes and not blow it by ranting and raving in ways that many people find to be unprofessional.
Quit falling for it. It's that frigging passive aggressive Ann Coulter method of making YOU blow your top first and making YOU look like the senseless babbling loon while she straps on her mock shock and outrage and "are you going to let me speak now? Are you through? I didn't interrupt you..." crap.
The more we/Democrats fall for it, the more the republicans win.
It's the stupid people, stupid. Democrats/the Left need the very people that they have repulsed with this recent divisive rhetoric. Barring toning it down and actually winning people over, this will continue to be a crapshoot.
If the Democrats want to go that route, it's over.
Whatever. (Some else please talk sense into him)...
Therein lies the flaw of your argument JohnQ. You started with:
Quote:
Wow. You t-h-o-r-o-u-g-h-l-y don't get it.
Bush isn't comparing anyone to Hitler.
But your current stance doesn't support your initially stated shock and disagreement.
Quote:
1. I know "the simple act of ranting in no way makes a man akin to Hitler." I didn't say that. I said "ranting at a podium is inherently Hitlerian in style"...IN STYLE. Like raising your arm in a stiff salute is inherently Hitlerian in style (if ignoring the fact it was used in other contexts). It's a cliché. An easy, if too-scurrilous and lazy way to villify an opponent.
Emphesis added. The red highlighted portion says it all. Bush is using a few moments of passion intermixed with images of Nazi Germany to convey a message. Democrats are evil. Democrats are agressive (filled with pessimism and rage), unable to control their emotions thus a danger to the stability of this country. Bush on the other hand is steady leadership, not filled with furious rage. The dems are as nasty as Nazi Germany while Bush is a steady leader. That is the message. Dems are evils loons while Bush is the nations only possible savior because he isn't about pessimism and rage. If--as you put it--"ranting at a podium is inherently Hitlerian in style" and one mixes in images of Hitler and Nazi Germany then isn't that a comparison? The republicans are--as you put it--villifying dems and Kerry buy linking the dems speeches to images of Hitler no matter what the original context of the Hitler images may have been. Images of the dems acting--as you put it--Hitlerian linked with images of Hitler and fascism is a comparison. The intension of this add was to show the loony dems to the neocon base while making a link between Kerry and Adolf.
And finally, unlike the MoveOn ad this current ad is branded with (from your transcript)
"President Bush
It's time for optimism, steady leadership, and progress
Paid for By Bush-Cheney '04, Inc."
This add is a comparison and a hypocritical one at that. The dems, and thus by proxy John Kerry, are to be seen as inherently unable to control themselves and unfit to lead this country. This add implies the inflamatory words of Al Gore are akin to the rileous words of Adolf Hitler.
You see, I CAN'T KEEP UP, untangling your train wreck of mischaracterizations, misquotes, incorrect assumptions, and seeing-only-what-you-want-to-see, hamfisted interpretations. Literally. I have to eat.
I will reply to that last one but right now it's in BBEdit in a hundred pieces because the frigging reply box for AI is too small.
Please, someone else with a clue feel free to correct him where you see fit.
1) The reps don´t compare the democrats to Hitler in this piece. Periode.
2) This is a very bad commercial. Those who have a slow perception don´t get the fast pace and might even get hitler/bush connection subconsciously. Those who get the message see the overly black/white picture and refuse it.
3) Like midwinter said, why is it that the rep commercials are showing very littloe of bush?
It argues both in my view. You honestly see no comparsions --no similarities-- between those conveniently edited clips of Democrats and Hitler? That's astounding. How can I help you see this?
Well in the first clip, shouldn't Hitler or Bush be...well speaking? It shows Bush and Hitler with their hands raised, like they are both swearing an oath. No speech or speaking is occuring there. In fact it is probably the quietest spot in the entire commercial. You can explain to me how showing Hitler silently taking an oath, having it morph to Bush taking an oath, with no speech occuring over it or during it is somehow relating to the Democrats speaking style.
As for similarities. In the first clip, Hitler is not at a podium, he is not speaking, and none of the Democrats I saw were swearing an oath.
The second clip is similar. It shows stills of Hitler and Bush, both posed with mouths open and hands up. Again meant to link them via similar body language and how they are posed.
Now if you do what to see how the Bush commercial is linking the Democratic speakers, look at the style applied to them. The subtitle is Coalition of the Wild Eyed. All the speakers after the first Gore shot are shown with excessive close-ups that make them appear more in your face. The intent is to look into their "wild eyes". The first Gore shot was very tight as well, but he was moving around a lot and that was probably as tight as they could get it.
You also have to look at how they are aiming the commercial. Both the Republicans and Democrats appear to produce commercials that are now internet only. It contains no "I endorsed this message" phrase to run on television. It is probably just like the flashed-based DNC commercial that showed cartoon-Bush pushing a cartoon-grandmother off a cliff. In otherwords, a pump up the base who visit the site often, commercial.
So, in conclusion, you could attempt to convince me the clips were attempting to link to Hitler if they, a) were tight shots focusing on Hitlers eyes, b) If Hitler were actually shown moving at all and c) explain why Bush didn't use any of the readily available footage of Hitler available that was not used in any Moveon.org submissions and actually would have shown Hitler pumped up, wild eyed, moving and speaking in a similar manner to the Democrats shown.
That piece is merely footage of anti-Bush speeches and the Hitler bit is FROM moveon.org's ad. It's to show how hopelessly over the top and embarrassing the drooling, rabid, anyone-but-Bush-at-all-costs freaks are.
And this is coming from someone that isn't a Republican (me). I did not and will not vote for Bush.
I think the piece sucks for many reasons (not focused enough for one). But it is not equating anyone with Hitler.
If you see "Hitler" in any of the speakers body language and rage blame the various Democrats and (whatever the Left wants to be called today) themselves. They lowered themselves in their craven appeal to mob rally mentality. The spittle and flushed cheeks are their own fault, not Bush's.
The piece clearly depicts moveon.org's comparison of Bush to Hitler. That certain people have acted out of control on video is their own fault. The vast majority of voters do not want screaming, flushed, breathless, spiteful hyperbole.
When Bush is re-elected (God forbid) you'll know why, based on the behavior depicted in this ad.
But this is what the world has come to. One cannot speak eloquently and be heard. There are truly no worthy candidates. They are all apes.
As a person myself who can step out of the "Party" I too see it just as you articulate so very clearly in your post.
I cannot even believe there is a debate about this. I keep referring to "intellectual dishonesty" and this is a prime example of it.
Bush is using angry, anti-Bush material to show the temperment of his opposition. The Hitler material was undeniably created to attack Bush. Trying to twist this into Bush comparing Kerry to Hitler is completely absurd. With everything I've seen at AO, I am literally beside myself at this discussion.
Faust:
Quote:
These guys are pissed at the way or country is headed
For Christ's sake...you don't believe that, do you? Please tell me that you don't actually buy that.
BRussell:
I also have to take issue...but with a different point you've made. Michael Moore is perhaps the most dishonest and morally bankrupt filmaker of all time. Gore has apparently gone insane. Howard Dean was well known for his ranting even before the "yeeeeaaahhh" incident.
For those that argue this election is actually leftover bile from the 2000 contest (perhaps questioning the legitimacy) or metaphorically consider any Presidency a Thread in History's Usenet, does the use of Hitler comparisons on one of the official campaign websites (not MoveOn - an advocacy group) mean we can now invoke Godwin's Law and declare that Presidential Thread over?
Yeah, everybody is crazy and Bush is the only sane one.
Where did you come up with that?
It is FRIGHTENING to see the depths Democrats will go to try to defy reality.
The Bush side does it and I thought that's the kind of crap we hate so much. So now it's okay for us to do it?
All I see is Democrats/Left demanding 100% loyalty ZERO tolerance for either a middle of the road viewpoint or some reasoned, honest self-criticism.
The equation is always "if you criticize any Democrat or the Left then you must therefore be pro-Bush". This is precisely the kind of redneck "Yer either with us or against us" Bush mentality I was trying to get AWAY from.
You know what? I'm done. Really. I'm not voting. I'll leave the country. I've simply had it with today's Democrats. Really. I'm deadly serious. One less vote for Kerry, you saw it here first folks.
Enjoy the mess. Not that I can run away far enough from it. It stinks to high heaven.
Comments
Originally posted by ShawnJ
While I agree that people shouldn't generally act like idiots (who can disagree with that?), the clips in the bush video are perfectly acceptable in their original contexts. Clipping only the more passionate moments and interspersing them with passionate Hitler clips is not acceptable. Is the Bush campaign responsible for that? Of course they are.
Context?
LOL...
You think Bush and friends care about context? We're relying on them to honestly represent the other side?
No, we need to, oh, I don't know, not get flustered, red faced, with spittle flying, podium thumping just in case the other side might take the low road and make a highlight clip of this to make us look like ranting maniacs?
Hey, I know it's boring. But I'd rather a few boring but honorable, well thought out speeches than a 5 -10 second clip of "yet another raving Democrat's speech that cost him the election" looping on CNN for the next 4 years...
Anyway, here's a bumper-sticker for the Dems:
"Better to be compared to Hitler for public speaking style than for policy decisions."
Originally posted by BRussell
The subtext is very clear - there are men speaking in loud voices on TV - Gore, Hitler, Dean, Moore, Gephardt, Hitler again, Kerry. The ad is entitled "the faces of the Democratic party." I don't usually go for the deconstructionist approach, but you have to be quite objective and distant not to see the similar way Hitler's speech is presented with the Democrats'. The juxtaposition of Hitler and his voice with the Democrats and their voices just hits you in the face.
And although the Hitler ad was beyond the pale, it was submitted by some anonymous person to an open ad contest. There was nothing wrong with any of the other speeches. I remember when Kerry said that, and he was smiling and laughing when he did. They cut the clip right before the humor was evident - and I think the humor was evident even in the clip it showed. Gore was giving a rousing speech to a rambunctious crowd, Moore wasn't saying anything any op-ed writers say every day, etc. It was the Hitler clip that provided the glue to the whole ad, which is why they dispersed the Hitler shots among the Democrats. The other clips alone would have meant nothing without the Hitler interspersed in there.
BRussell I have to disagree with you here. Having watched that clip a couple times, they do much more than just show Hitler speaking in that ad. They play enough in each clip to show how the clip was attempting to link Hitler to Bush in both instances. Both clips show Hitler morphing to Bush. Also in the first clip, Hitler isn't even speaking. Hitler it is a stylistic linking via the red and black color imposed on Bush and Hitler. The words about war crimes being foreign policy flash on top, and the clip is even long enough to show it was submitted to Moveon.org
If the clips had not left in the morphs to Bush, I would gladly see your point. However they left in the morphing to Bush and it shows what the Democrats were doing. It doesn't attempt to link to their speaking style to Hitler, but rather show how over the top their rhetoric is regarding Bush.
Nick
Originally posted by ShawnJ
While I agree that people shouldn't generally act like idiots (who can disagree with that?), the clips in the bush video are perfectly acceptable in their original contexts. Clipping only the more passionate moments and interspersing them with passionate Hitler clips is not acceptable. Is the Bush campaign responsible for that? Of course they are.
Yes remember folks. Using video clips out of context is only acceptable if you are attempting to make a documenta...
Oh yeah...
Nick
Originally posted by trumptman
It doesn't attempt to link to their speaking style to Hitler, but rather show how over the top their rhetoric is regarding Bush.
Originally posted by ShawnJ
I'm sorry, but anyone ranting at a podium is inherently Hitlerian in style if not intent, be it Bush or Gore or Nader, etc.
Clearly the ads shows how the anti-Bush crowd (if only Symbolman) had compared Bush to Hitler and the rest is showing the opposition at the height of their rhetoric and emotion, which, to the type of modest Americans that Bush is going after, will appear "dangerous" and "out of control" and "unfit for leadership" etc.
The reality and the context are irrelevant. Look, for the most part Bush is preaching to the converted. Showing any of these guys speaking as they normally do "in their element" is, to the Bush crowd, going to look over the top and even radical or hateful.
All Bush has to do is let the footage roll. Of course (thankfully) it works both ways, as Moore well knows. There's plenty of ammo for both sides.
But as far as seeing Hitler in the speakers' speeches/tirades, methinks thou dost protest too much. Or Hitler is in the eye of the beholder.
It's true that one can compare, but that does not mean there is an actual comparison being done - unlike Symbolman literal comparison. But if Democrats can incidentally seem to look like a bunch of raving Hitlers while simultaneously showing how "they" tried to compare him to Hitler, even better (to Bush). I'm sure he's happy if someone reads that into it. But there is no active comparison being done.
What is sad is that the people shown couldn't refrain from providing Bush with such footage. They should have known better.
Originally posted by johnq
I'm sorry, but anyone ranting at a podium is inherently Hitlerian in style if not intent, be it Bush or Gore or Nader, etc.
Clearly the ads shows how the anti-Bush crowd (if only Symbolman) had compared Bush to Hitler and the rest is showing the opposition at the height of their rhetoric and emotion, which, to the type of modest Americans that Bush is going after, will appear "dangerous" and "out of control" and "unfit for leadership" etc.
The reality and the context are irrelevant. Look, for the most part Bush is preaching to the converted. Showing any of these guys speaking as they normally do "in their element" is, to the Bush crowd, going to look over the top and even radical or hateful.
All Bush has to do is let the footage roll. Of course (thankfully) it works both ways, as Moore well knows. There's plenty of ammo for both sides.
But as far as seeing Hitler in the speakers' speeches/tirades, methinks thou dost protest too much. Or Hitler is in the eye of the beholder.
It's true that one can compare, but that does not mean there is an actual comparison being done - unlike Symbolman literal comparison. But if Democrats can incidentally seem to look like a bunch of raving Hitlers while simultaneously showing how "they" tried to compare him to Hitler, even better (to Bush). I'm sure he's happy if someone reads that into it. But there is no active comparison being done.
What is sad is that the people shown couldn't refrain from providing Bush with such footage. They should have known better.
The simple act of ranting in no way makes a man akin to Hitler. If you believe that ranting is all that is required to 'Hitlarian' then you need to look over the wording in some of Adolfs empassioned speaches be they from 1933 or 1940.
The simple fact of the matter is the neocons had a field day when the Hitler clip was found on MoveOn. Now the neocons (these guys are not my republican party) are using said same footage to advance their political careers. You click on a picture of Kerry to see the flick. Democrats are pained as raving loons in 5 second cuts with images of Nazi Germany mixed in. At the end, as I've already said, the Kerry fade out... The ad is trying to imply democrats are akin to Nazi Germany propaganda plain and simple.
This line you have about the speaches being the problem is wrongheaded also. These guys are pissed at the way or country is headed. These guys have been painted as spineless liberals since Nixon. They start showing some backbone and you believe that is wrong? These angry ex-politicians are expressing the rage that Kerry cannot. Kerry is advancing his agenda day by day (though the news is barely covering it) while the has-beens are bolstering the image of liberals as less than spineless. The Bush ad is targeted at his audience but that doesn't mitigate the hypocricy of by any means. The ad, as pfflam said, is ment to paint the dems as Nazis via propaganda using Bush's money on Bush's own reelection site.
------------------------
FADE IN:
The Faces of John Kerry's Democratic Party
- The Coalition of the Wild Eyed -
CUT:
Gore:
"How DARE they...drag the GOOD name...of the United States of America...through the MUD...of Saddam Hussein's TORTURE PRISON!"
(cheers)
CUT:
---
WHAT WERE WAR CRIMES IN 1945
(Hitler profile in blood red)
"Sieg heil! Sieg heil!"
CROSSFADE:
FOREIGN POLICY IN 2003
(Bush with hand raised in blood red)
(Sound from Hitler clip still ringing out)
CROSSFADE:
(Blood red)
SPONSORED BY
MOVEON.ORG
---
CUT:
Dean:
"I want my COUNTRY back!"
CUT:
Moore:
"We live in a time...where we have a man...sending us to war...for fictious reasons." (boos/crowd noises/claps)
CUT:
Gephardt:
"This president is a MISERABLE failure." (pointing)
CUT:
---
Hitler pictures, arm raised
(Hitler speaking German)
Subtitle: God told me to strike at Al Qaida and I struck them.
CROSSFADE:
Bush picture, arm raised
(Hitler speaking German)
Subtitle: And then he told me to strike at Saddam, which I did.
---
CUT:
Gore:
"He BETRAYED this country!!" (cheers) "HE PLAYED ON OUR FEARS!" (cheers)
CUT:
Kerry:
"Today...today George Bush will lay off your camel, tax your shovel, kick your (bleep) and tell ya there is no promised land."
(cheers)
FADE:
Caption: "This is not a time for pessimism and rage..."
FADE:
Bush picture
(piano clip)
Caption:
"President Bush
It's time for optimism, steady leadership, and progress
Paid for By Bush-Cheney '04, Inc."
------------------------
The only crossfades were from Hitler into Bush from "Symbolman"'s piece.
The quick-cut juxtaposition of Gore/Gephardt to Hitler is not the point of the piece. I have no doubt that it was welcomed, a sneaky way of playing two can play that, but it is not overt as was Symbolman's piece - nor could it be since they are claiming the moral high-ground (even if wrongly to us).
The problem is that, since the Left "went there" (if only Symbolman) the simple act of showing snippets of his piece and the other speeches does all the talking for Bush. It says to his supporters "this is what the Left/Democrats/radicals thinks of me/us/our country/your choice of leader" and has the effect of panicking them into voting for Bush or else risk having the country fall apart (as his rhetoric would have it).
He generally ain't in them very much.
Originally posted by faust9
The simple act of ranting in no way makes a man akin to Hitler. If you believe that ranting is all that is required to 'Hitlarian' then you need to look over the wording in some of Adolfs empassioned speaches be they from 1933 or 1940.
The simple fact of the matter is the neocons had a field day when the Hitler clip was found on MoveOn. Now the neocons (these guys are not my republican party) are using said same footage to advance their political careers. You click on a picture of Kerry to see the flick. Democrats are pained as raving loons in 5 second cuts with images of Nazi Germany mixed in. At the end, as I've already said, the Kerry fade out... The ad is trying to imply democrats are akin to Nazi Germany propaganda plain and simple.
This line you have about the speaches being the problem is wrongheaded also. These guys are pissed at the way or country is headed. These guys have been painted as spineless liberals since Nixon. They start showing some backbone and you believe that is wrong? These angry ex-politicians are expressing the rage that Kerry cannot. Kerry is advancing his agenda day by day (though the news is barely covering it) while the has-beens are bolstering the image of liberals as less than spineless. The Bush ad is targeted at his audience but that doesn't mitigate the hypocricy of by any means. The ad, as pfflam said, is ment to paint the dems as Nazis via propaganda using Bush's money on Bush's own reelection site.
Sigh...oh my god.
1. I know "the simple act of ranting in no way makes a man akin to Hitler." I didn't say that. I said "ranting at a podium is inherently Hitlerian in style"...IN STYLE. Like raising your arm in a stiff salute is inherently Hitlerian in style (if ignoring the fact it was used in other contexts). It's a cliché. An easy, if too-scurrilous and lazy way to villify an opponent.
2. I DON'T "believe that ranting is all that is required to 'Hitlarian'" I know full well the details of his writings and speeches and the history involved. This is precisely why it isn't a comparison to be made lightly.
"You click on a picture of Kerry to see the flick." So what? Why wouldn't they use a picture of Kerry for a piece called 'John Kerry's Democratic Party"?
"Democrats are painted as raving loons in 5 second cuts with images of Nazi Germany mixed in." First, it matters not what the context was but that they acted like that for whatever reason. Why give Bush ammo? Second, the Nazi imagery was explicitly and plainly depicting BUSH AS HITLER (as told by Symbolman).
At the end, as I've already said, the Kerry fade out... The ad is trying to imply democrats are akin to Nazi Germany propaganda plain and simple.
I'm appalled that you've put me in the unavoidable, odious position of actually having to defend Bush, but I refuse to say the sky is pink and green polkadots just to get Kerry elected, but all the ad does is capitalize on a poor choice of analogy on Symbolman's part (outrageous to most people, if not accurate in part), moveon.org's stupidity for not telling him to remove their name from his work, and the various speakers' inability to remember that the camera is watching and videotape never forgets. They should always project rational, statesmanlike attitudes and not blow it by ranting and raving in ways that many people find to be unprofessional.
Quit falling for it. It's that frigging passive aggressive Ann Coulter method of making YOU blow your top first and making YOU look like the senseless babbling loon while she straps on her mock shock and outrage and "are you going to let me speak now? Are you through? I didn't interrupt you..." crap.
The more we/Democrats fall for it, the more the republicans win.
It's the stupid people, stupid. Democrats/the Left need the very people that they have repulsed with this recent divisive rhetoric. Barring toning it down and actually winning people over, this will continue to be a crapshoot.
If the Democrats want to go that route, it's over.
Whatever. (Some else please talk sense into him)...
Wow. You t-h-o-r-o-u-g-h-l-y don't get it.
Bush isn't comparing anyone to Hitler.
But your current stance doesn't support your initially stated shock and disagreement.
1. I know "the simple act of ranting in no way makes a man akin to Hitler." I didn't say that. I said "ranting at a podium is inherently Hitlerian in style"...IN STYLE. Like raising your arm in a stiff salute is inherently Hitlerian in style (if ignoring the fact it was used in other contexts). It's a cliché. An easy, if too-scurrilous and lazy way to villify an opponent.
Emphesis added. The red highlighted portion says it all. Bush is using a few moments of passion intermixed with images of Nazi Germany to convey a message. Democrats are evil. Democrats are agressive (filled with pessimism and rage), unable to control their emotions thus a danger to the stability of this country. Bush on the other hand is steady leadership, not filled with furious rage. The dems are as nasty as Nazi Germany while Bush is a steady leader. That is the message. Dems are evils loons while Bush is the nations only possible savior because he isn't about pessimism and rage. If--as you put it--"ranting at a podium is inherently Hitlerian in style" and one mixes in images of Hitler and Nazi Germany then isn't that a comparison? The republicans are--as you put it--villifying dems and Kerry buy linking the dems speeches to images of Hitler no matter what the original context of the Hitler images may have been. Images of the dems acting--as you put it--Hitlerian linked with images of Hitler and fascism is a comparison. The intension of this add was to show the loony dems to the neocon base while making a link between Kerry and Adolf.
And finally, unlike the MoveOn ad this current ad is branded with (from your transcript)
"President Bush
It's time for optimism, steady leadership, and progress
Paid for By Bush-Cheney '04, Inc."
This add is a comparison and a hypocritical one at that. The dems, and thus by proxy John Kerry, are to be seen as inherently unable to control themselves and unfit to lead this country. This add implies the inflamatory words of Al Gore are akin to the rileous words of Adolf Hitler.
You see, I CAN'T KEEP UP, untangling your train wreck of mischaracterizations, misquotes, incorrect assumptions, and seeing-only-what-you-want-to-see, hamfisted interpretations. Literally. I have to eat.
I will reply to that last one but right now it's in BBEdit in a hundred pieces because the frigging reply box for AI is too small.
Please, someone else with a clue feel free to correct him where you see fit.
Thanks...
1) The reps don´t compare the democrats to Hitler in this piece. Periode.
2) This is a very bad commercial. Those who have a slow perception don´t get the fast pace and might even get hitler/bush connection subconsciously. Those who get the message see the overly black/white picture and refuse it.
3) Like midwinter said, why is it that the rep commercials are showing very littloe of bush?
Originally posted by ShawnJ
Well in the first clip, shouldn't Hitler or Bush be...well speaking? It shows Bush and Hitler with their hands raised, like they are both swearing an oath. No speech or speaking is occuring there. In fact it is probably the quietest spot in the entire commercial. You can explain to me how showing Hitler silently taking an oath, having it morph to Bush taking an oath, with no speech occuring over it or during it is somehow relating to the Democrats speaking style.
As for similarities. In the first clip, Hitler is not at a podium, he is not speaking, and none of the Democrats I saw were swearing an oath.
The second clip is similar. It shows stills of Hitler and Bush, both posed with mouths open and hands up. Again meant to link them via similar body language and how they are posed.
Now if you do what to see how the Bush commercial is linking the Democratic speakers, look at the style applied to them. The subtitle is Coalition of the Wild Eyed. All the speakers after the first Gore shot are shown with excessive close-ups that make them appear more in your face. The intent is to look into their "wild eyes". The first Gore shot was very tight as well, but he was moving around a lot and that was probably as tight as they could get it.
You also have to look at how they are aiming the commercial. Both the Republicans and Democrats appear to produce commercials that are now internet only. It contains no "I endorsed this message" phrase to run on television. It is probably just like the flashed-based DNC commercial that showed cartoon-Bush pushing a cartoon-grandmother off a cliff. In otherwords, a pump up the base who visit the site often, commercial.
So, in conclusion, you could attempt to convince me the clips were attempting to link to Hitler if they, a) were tight shots focusing on Hitlers eyes, b) If Hitler were actually shown moving at all and c) explain why Bush didn't use any of the readily available footage of Hitler available that was not used in any Moveon.org submissions and actually would have shown Hitler pumped up, wild eyed, moving and speaking in a similar manner to the Democrats shown.
Nick
Originally posted by johnq
Wow. You t-h-o-r-o-u-g-h-l-y don't get it.
Bush isn't comparing anyone to Hitler.
That piece is merely footage of anti-Bush speeches and the Hitler bit is FROM moveon.org's ad. It's to show how hopelessly over the top and embarrassing the drooling, rabid, anyone-but-Bush-at-all-costs freaks are.
And this is coming from someone that isn't a Republican (me). I did not and will not vote for Bush.
I think the piece sucks for many reasons (not focused enough for one). But it is not equating anyone with Hitler.
If you see "Hitler" in any of the speakers body language and rage blame the various Democrats and (whatever the Left wants to be called today) themselves. They lowered themselves in their craven appeal to mob rally mentality. The spittle and flushed cheeks are their own fault, not Bush's.
The piece clearly depicts moveon.org's comparison of Bush to Hitler. That certain people have acted out of control on video is their own fault. The vast majority of voters do not want screaming, flushed, breathless, spiteful hyperbole.
When Bush is re-elected (God forbid) you'll know why, based on the behavior depicted in this ad.
But this is what the world has come to. One cannot speak eloquently and be heard. There are truly no worthy candidates. They are all apes.
As a person myself who can step out of the "Party" I too see it just as you articulate so very clearly in your post.
Well said..
Fellowship
Bush is using angry, anti-Bush material to show the temperment of his opposition. The Hitler material was undeniably created to attack Bush. Trying to twist this into Bush comparing Kerry to Hitler is completely absurd. With everything I've seen at AO, I am literally beside myself at this discussion.
Faust:
These guys are pissed at the way or country is headed
For Christ's sake...you don't believe that, do you? Please tell me that you don't actually buy that.
BRussell:
I also have to take issue...but with a different point you've made. Michael Moore is perhaps the most dishonest and morally bankrupt filmaker of all time. Gore has apparently gone insane. Howard Dean was well known for his ranting even before the "yeeeeaaahhh" incident.
Originally posted by jimmac
Yeah, everybody is crazy and Bush is the only sane one.
Where did you come up with that?
It is FRIGHTENING to see the depths Democrats will go to try to defy reality.
The Bush side does it and I thought that's the kind of crap we hate so much. So now it's okay for us to do it?
All I see is Democrats/Left demanding 100% loyalty ZERO tolerance for either a middle of the road viewpoint or some reasoned, honest self-criticism.
The equation is always "if you criticize any Democrat or the Left then you must therefore be pro-Bush". This is precisely the kind of redneck "Yer either with us or against us" Bush mentality I was trying to get AWAY from.
You know what? I'm done. Really. I'm not voting. I'll leave the country. I've simply had it with today's Democrats. Really. I'm deadly serious. One less vote for Kerry, you saw it here first folks.
Enjoy the mess. Not that I can run away far enough from it. It stinks to high heaven.
Originally posted by johnq
Where did you come up with that?
It is FRIGHTENING to see the depths Democrats will go to try to defy reality.
Man, that's rich.