If they are, then Apple's tech specs page has an error, since they mention their G4s have 256K of L2 instead of 512K. Maybe somebody with a new 2x1250 MHz G4 can pull off his heatsink and look at the stamp?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I think that when Apple announced these new machines they were not sure if the 7457 would be available so they quoted the 7455 specs. I think it is very suspecious that the 1.42ghz is still 6weeks from shipping according to the Apple store. I doubt very much that the 1.42ghz PM are going to be shipped with 7455's, I expect the L2 specifications to be updated soon.
Q4 2003 is right in time to update the notebook line.
I don't think the 7457's release date will in any way impact the date that Apple chooses to unveil the 970, especially if the 970 starts out as a PowerMac exclusive. The 7457 can tide the notebook and iMac lines over at least until the 970 moves to .09 micron, at which point it can slip into the PowerBook, and leave the 7457 to power the iBook. I'm not sure which way the iMac/eMac will go, but they do tend to follow the PowerBook.
This delay makes me wonder when the 7457-RM will ship. 2005?
<strong>I don't think the 7457's release date will in any way impact the date that Apple chooses to unveil the 970, especially if the 970 starts out as a PowerMac exclusive.
I agree, it's just that I think the 970 is going to be longer comming than is expected on these boards given the recent comments.
It seems obvious that Apple will just drop the 7457 into the PM's as soon as they have sufficent stocks to do so. The press release says that Alpha samples of the MPC7457 and MPC7447 PowerPC processors are available today to selected customers. General market sampling is planned for March, with production expected to commence in Q4 2003. so I would expect "Selected customers" to get enough chips before September to pop them in ther top of the range PM's.
If anything the 17" PB's need the 7447 chip much more than any other Mac.
I agree, it's just that I think the 970 is going to be longer comming than is expected on these boards given the recent comments.
It seems obvious that Apple will just drop the 7457 into the PM's as soon as they have sufficent stocks to do so. The press release says that Alpha samples of the MPC7457 and MPC7447 PowerPC processors are available today to selected customers. General market sampling is planned for March, with production expected to commence in Q4 2003. so I would expect "Selected customers" to get enough chips before September to pop them in ther top of the range PM's.
If anything the 17" PB's need the 7447 chip much more than any other Mac.
I agree, it's just that I think the 970 is going to be longer comming than is expected on these boards given the recent comments.
It seems obvious that Apple will just drop the 7457 into the PM's as soon as they have sufficent stocks to do so. The press release says that Alpha samples of the MPC7457 and MPC7447 PowerPC processors are available today to selected customers. General market sampling is planned for March, with production expected to commence in Q4 2003. so I would expect "Selected customers" to get enough chips before September to pop them in ther top of the range PM's.
If anything the 17" PB's need the 7447 chip much more than any other Mac.
This is roughly the same timeframe that IBM has given for the 970 :
[quote]
The PowerPC 970 is designed in IBM 0.13-micron CMOS silicon-on-insulator (SOI) technology and will be manufactured in IBM's new state-of-the-art 300-mm facility in East Fishkill, NY. Sampling is scheduled to begin in the second quarter of 2003 with production expected in the second half of 2003.
<hr></blockquote>
Though the second half of 03 is a broad target, so they could ship before Moto's new G4, at the same time, or after. I would hope for Apples sake that Moto and IBM have their chips far enough along that new Macs could be anounced at MacWorld this summer, or if that fails at least by the end of September.
I think that when Apple announced these new machines they were not sure if the 7457 would be available so they quoted the 7455 specs. I think it is very suspecious that the 1.42ghz is still 6weeks from shipping according to the Apple store. I doubt very much that the 1.42ghz PM are going to be shipped with 7455's, I expect the L2 specifications to be updated soon. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Note that the Xserve page also lists 256K L2 cache. And your theory about Apple not knowing when the 7457s would be announced is ridiculous. Apple knows well in advance what's going into its machines. Apple knows what the specs of the 1.42 GHz G4 will be, and whether it'll be a 7457 or a 7455. There are only three explanations for the tech specs listings.
Either the web-monkey forgot to put "256 or 512 KB L2 cache" or the 1.42 GHz is a MPC7455.
[quote]That's a long time to wait for something so underwhelming.
<hr></blockquote>
Now then...
I think Amorph said it.
Basically the 970 and the 'revised' (again...) G4 will pass one another mid flight as the 970 crashes into the 'power'Mac range and the G4 into the consumer line.
This looks, predictably, like a total 'fall' revamp. I think it is no coincidence that Apple have revamped almost their entire lineup over the last month or so over the winter period. I think we'll see a similar, even more aggressive, move come late Summer. With the 970s spectacular at New York. A great way for Macworld New York to bow out I'd say.
Let's face it. Apple cpu problems can't go on with slight...incremental bumps while x86 ville are dawning on a new 64 bit ages and a Pentium 4 cruising to 4 gig. Something's got to give. It's getting beyond a joke. The last iMac 2 update barely moved, much like the disastrous 'power'Mac bump last Summer. And the eMacs? Don't go there. They're cheaper. Let's leave it at that..., eh?
Can you really imagine 'power'Macs on dual 1.6 gig on a crummy 166 bus to the years end? Not even a funny joke. With 3.6-4 gig Pentium 4 and Athlon 64s beaten the living jeeeezus out of the poor G4 in Lightwave and Photoshop benches...sorry...stop the nightmare Lemon. The 970 is coming.
Anyhow. Who knows what will transpire.
It's just been so long...Apple surely must have been working on something seizmic to get us back kicking x86 booty. (Say with Geordie accent!)
I've got faith in Moki's tea leaves.
Unsurprising first half 2003 and a great 2nd half.
The recent X-serve/X-Raid annoucements give hints that apple 'means business'. We're just gonna have to wait a little longer, that's all.
<strong>This delay makes me wonder when the 7457-RM will ship. 2005? </strong><hr></blockquote>
Since the leaked roadmap listed the MPC 7457-RM as a proposal, I believe 2005 to be quite optimistic <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
This about clinches it for me. Motorola will not be supplying processors to Apple as soon as Apple can make the change to IBM or whoever. For whatever reason, Motorola wouldn't pony up the R&D to design a true desktop processor and they will lose Apple's business. Too bad really.
Let's face it. Apple cpu problems can't go on with slight...incremental bumps while x86 ville are dawning on a new 64 bit ages and a Pentium 4 cruising to 4 gig. Something's got to give.</strong>
Well, incremental bumps is the way to go because it maximizes the dollars. It would be bad (for Apple) to waste CPU increments. AMD and Intel always incremented by 50 to 200 MHz at a time, but did it every quarter instead of 6 months like PowerPC. Apple needs to have a quarterly update cycle really if they want to catch up in MHz.
Pentium 4 increases to 4 GHz probably won't happen until Q2 04. The 3.2 GHz P4 is hitting its power limits at 130 nm, and there isn't much stretch left. They'll probably get to 3.2 GHz in the next 4 months or so, than 3.6 GHz when a 90 nm P4 ships at the end of the year, maybe Q1 04. The big thing will be the quad data rate 200 MHz processor bus representing a marketing number of 800 MHz bitrate for its bus. That's the PPC 970's bus bitrate!
The Opteron won't be in Apple's space. (If AMD has it there they will be in trouble financially.) The Itaniums aren't in Apple's space. The Athlon 64 is now due in September.
<strong>Can you really imagine 'power'Macs on dual 1.6 gig on a crummy 166 bus to the years end?</strong>
Well, yes I can. It's not funny obviously.
<strong>It's just been so long...Apple surely must have been working on something seizmic to get us back kicking x86 booty. (Say with Geordie accent!)</strong>
I'm hoping for by this time next year:
Dual PPC 970 1.8 GHz Power Macs
Dual PPC 7457 1.5 GHz Powerbooks (there's lots of pcb space if backside cache is eliminated)
PPC 7457 1.5 GHz iMacs (with backside cache)
PPC 7457 1.3 GHz iBooks (without backside cache)
and a Cube-like tower with a 1.3 GHz 7457 for $800.
So do you think we will really see the PPC970 this year? At a glance it would seem obvious that we would. But coud it just be that we a hoping so much that we have overlooked the fact. I don't see why the 7457 can't have a faster bus. why can't moto make it faster than 200Mhz? I don't see why that is so hard for them. It does seem that the 7457 and the 970 will be out at the same time, so this could be very interesting for apple. hehe!
Dual PPC 7457 1.5 GHz Powerbooks (there's lots of pcb space if backside cache is eliminated)
PPC 7457 1.5 GHz iMacs (with backside cache)
PPC 7457 1.3 GHz iBooks (without backside cache)
and a Cube-like tower with a 1.3 GHz 7457 for $800. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Just asking, but if reports that the 970 are twice as fast at the same clock as the MPC 7455, which should hold pretty much true for the MPC 7457(since nothing really changed other that L2 cache, then why not a 1.0GHz-1.4GHz in the powerbooks/imacs/ibooks???? Or, an IBM version of the G4 based on the G3 w/ altivec????
I think the .13µ 970 will be to hot and power hungry to go into a laptop at anything over 1.2Ghz. Later on when we see the .9µ we will probable see a 970 PowerBook.
You miss understand me, I think Apple will drop the 7457 into the PM's until the 970's are ready.
I agree that PM's will go 970 and possibly PB's later on. I would also expect the 7457-RM to find it's way into iMacs.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't think there will be anymore G4s in the pmacs. We have no reason to believe that the G4 can scale much higher seeing that the past update broke the 'high becomes low' trend Apple has followed recently. I would rather Apple wait and do nothing for a few months longer and release the 970 then use use the G4 for another 6 months. I want the 970 this year, so that means no more G4s
Comments
That's a long time to wait for something so underwhelming.
<strong>
If they are, then Apple's tech specs page has an error, since they mention their G4s have 256K of L2 instead of 512K. Maybe somebody with a new 2x1250 MHz G4 can pull off his heatsink and look at the stamp?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I think that when Apple announced these new machines they were not sure if the 7457 would be available so they quoted the 7455 specs. I think it is very suspecious that the 1.42ghz is still 6weeks from shipping according to the Apple store. I doubt very much that the 1.42ghz PM are going to be shipped with 7455's, I expect the L2 specifications to be updated soon.
PM's 7457
PB's & FP iMacs 7447
eMac 7455
And we will have to wait until MWSF2004 for the 970.
I don't think the 7457's release date will in any way impact the date that Apple chooses to unveil the 970, especially if the 970 starts out as a PowerMac exclusive. The 7457 can tide the notebook and iMac lines over at least until the 970 moves to .09 micron, at which point it can slip into the PowerBook, and leave the 7457 to power the iBook. I'm not sure which way the iMac/eMac will go, but they do tend to follow the PowerBook.
This delay makes me wonder when the 7457-RM will ship. 2005?
[ 02-10-2003: Message edited by: Amorph ]</p>
<strong>I don't think the 7457's release date will in any way impact the date that Apple chooses to unveil the 970, especially if the 970 starts out as a PowerMac exclusive.
[ 02-10-2003: Message edited by: Amorph ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
I agree, it's just that I think the 970 is going to be longer comming than is expected on these boards given the recent comments.
It seems obvious that Apple will just drop the 7457 into the PM's as soon as they have sufficent stocks to do so. The press release says that Alpha samples of the MPC7457 and MPC7447 PowerPC processors are available today to selected customers. General market sampling is planned for March, with production expected to commence in Q4 2003. so I would expect "Selected customers" to get enough chips before September to pop them in ther top of the range PM's.
If anything the 17" PB's need the 7447 chip much more than any other Mac.
[ 02-10-2003: Message edited by: Addison ]</p>
<strong>
I agree, it's just that I think the 970 is going to be longer comming than is expected on these boards given the recent comments.
It seems obvious that Apple will just drop the 7457 into the PM's as soon as they have sufficent stocks to do so. The press release says that Alpha samples of the MPC7457 and MPC7447 PowerPC processors are available today to selected customers. General market sampling is planned for March, with production expected to commence in Q4 2003. so I would expect "Selected customers" to get enough chips before September to pop them in ther top of the range PM's.
If anything the 17" PB's need the 7447 chip much more than any other Mac.
[ 02-10-2003: Message edited by: Addison ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
Who said they are for pmacs? The 970 is for pmacs and G4s will now go to the iMac, pBook, etc.
<strong>
I agree, it's just that I think the 970 is going to be longer comming than is expected on these boards given the recent comments.
It seems obvious that Apple will just drop the 7457 into the PM's as soon as they have sufficent stocks to do so. The press release says that Alpha samples of the MPC7457 and MPC7447 PowerPC processors are available today to selected customers. General market sampling is planned for March, with production expected to commence in Q4 2003. so I would expect "Selected customers" to get enough chips before September to pop them in ther top of the range PM's.
If anything the 17" PB's need the 7447 chip much more than any other Mac.
[ 02-10-2003: Message edited by: Addison ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
This is roughly the same timeframe that IBM has given for the 970 :
[quote]
The PowerPC 970 is designed in IBM 0.13-micron CMOS silicon-on-insulator (SOI) technology and will be manufactured in IBM's new state-of-the-art 300-mm facility in East Fishkill, NY. Sampling is scheduled to begin in the second quarter of 2003 with production expected in the second half of 2003.
<hr></blockquote>
Though the second half of 03 is a broad target, so they could ship before Moto's new G4, at the same time, or after. I would hope for Apples sake that Moto and IBM have their chips far enough along that new Macs could be anounced at MacWorld this summer, or if that fails at least by the end of September.
<strong>
Who said they are for pmacs? The 970 is for pmacs and G4s will now go to the iMac, pBook, etc.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You miss understand me, I think Apple will drop the 7457 into the PM's until the 970's are ready.
I agree that PM's will go 970 and possibly PB's later on. I would also expect the 7457-RM to find it's way into iMacs.
<strong>
I think that when Apple announced these new machines they were not sure if the 7457 would be available so they quoted the 7455 specs. I think it is very suspecious that the 1.42ghz is still 6weeks from shipping according to the Apple store. I doubt very much that the 1.42ghz PM are going to be shipped with 7455's, I expect the L2 specifications to be updated soon.
Note that the Xserve page also lists 256K L2 cache. And your theory about Apple not knowing when the 7457s would be announced is ridiculous. Apple knows well in advance what's going into its machines. Apple knows what the specs of the 1.42 GHz G4 will be, and whether it'll be a 7457 or a 7455. There are only three explanations for the tech specs listings.
Either the web-monkey forgot to put "256 or 512 KB L2 cache" or the 1.42 GHz is a MPC7455.
<strong>
If anything the 17" PB's need the 7447 chip much more than any other Mac.</strong><hr></blockquote>
The 17" PB would be using the 7457...
<hr></blockquote>
Now then...
I think Amorph said it.
Basically the 970 and the 'revised' (again...) G4 will pass one another mid flight as the 970 crashes into the 'power'Mac range and the G4 into the consumer line.
This looks, predictably, like a total 'fall' revamp. I think it is no coincidence that Apple have revamped almost their entire lineup over the last month or so over the winter period. I think we'll see a similar, even more aggressive, move come late Summer. With the 970s spectacular at New York. A great way for Macworld New York to bow out I'd say.
Let's face it. Apple cpu problems can't go on with slight...incremental bumps while x86 ville are dawning on a new 64 bit ages and a Pentium 4 cruising to 4 gig. Something's got to give. It's getting beyond a joke. The last iMac 2 update barely moved, much like the disastrous 'power'Mac bump last Summer. And the eMacs? Don't go there. They're cheaper. Let's leave it at that..., eh?
Can you really imagine 'power'Macs on dual 1.6 gig on a crummy 166 bus to the years end? Not even a funny joke. With 3.6-4 gig Pentium 4 and Athlon 64s beaten the living jeeeezus out of the poor G4 in Lightwave and Photoshop benches...sorry...stop the nightmare Lemon. The 970 is coming.
Anyhow. Who knows what will transpire.
It's just been so long...Apple surely must have been working on something seizmic to get us back kicking x86 booty. (Say with Geordie accent!)
I've got faith in Moki's tea leaves.
Unsurprising first half 2003 and a great 2nd half.
The recent X-serve/X-Raid annoucements give hints that apple 'means business'. We're just gonna have to wait a little longer, that's all.
Lemon Bon Bon
<strong>This delay makes me wonder when the 7457-RM will ship. 2005?
Since the leaked roadmap listed the MPC 7457-RM as a proposal, I believe 2005 to be quite optimistic <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
This about clinches it for me. Motorola will not be supplying processors to Apple as soon as Apple can make the change to IBM or whoever. For whatever reason, Motorola wouldn't pony up the R&D to design a true desktop processor and they will lose Apple's business. Too bad really.
Let's face it. Apple cpu problems can't go on with slight...incremental bumps while x86 ville are dawning on a new 64 bit ages and a Pentium 4 cruising to 4 gig. Something's got to give.</strong>
Well, incremental bumps is the way to go because it maximizes the dollars. It would be bad (for Apple) to waste CPU increments. AMD and Intel always incremented by 50 to 200 MHz at a time, but did it every quarter instead of 6 months like PowerPC. Apple needs to have a quarterly update cycle really if they want to catch up in MHz.
Pentium 4 increases to 4 GHz probably won't happen until Q2 04. The 3.2 GHz P4 is hitting its power limits at 130 nm, and there isn't much stretch left. They'll probably get to 3.2 GHz in the next 4 months or so, than 3.6 GHz when a 90 nm P4 ships at the end of the year, maybe Q1 04. The big thing will be the quad data rate 200 MHz processor bus representing a marketing number of 800 MHz bitrate for its bus. That's the PPC 970's bus bitrate!
The Opteron won't be in Apple's space. (If AMD has it there they will be in trouble financially.) The Itaniums aren't in Apple's space. The Athlon 64 is now due in September.
<strong>Can you really imagine 'power'Macs on dual 1.6 gig on a crummy 166 bus to the years end?</strong>
Well, yes I can. It's not funny obviously.
<strong>It's just been so long...Apple surely must have been working on something seizmic to get us back kicking x86 booty. (Say with Geordie accent!)</strong>
I'm hoping for by this time next year:
Dual PPC 970 1.8 GHz Power Macs
Dual PPC 7457 1.5 GHz Powerbooks (there's lots of pcb space if backside cache is eliminated)
PPC 7457 1.5 GHz iMacs (with backside cache)
PPC 7457 1.3 GHz iBooks (without backside cache)
and a Cube-like tower with a 1.3 GHz 7457 for $800.
<strong>[qb]
I'm hoping for by this time next year:
Dual PPC 970 1.8 GHz Power Macs
Dual PPC 7457 1.5 GHz Powerbooks (there's lots of pcb space if backside cache is eliminated)
PPC 7457 1.5 GHz iMacs (with backside cache)
PPC 7457 1.3 GHz iBooks (without backside cache)
and a Cube-like tower with a 1.3 GHz 7457 for $800.
Just asking, but if reports that the 970 are twice as fast at the same clock as the MPC 7455, which should hold pretty much true for the MPC 7457(since nothing really changed other that L2 cache, then why not a 1.0GHz-1.4GHz in the powerbooks/imacs/ibooks???? Or, an IBM version of the G4 based on the G3 w/ altivec????
Just asking.
My point, THT
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
<img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
Lemon Bon Bon
<strong>
You miss understand me, I think Apple will drop the 7457 into the PM's until the 970's are ready.
I agree that PM's will go 970 and possibly PB's later on. I would also expect the 7457-RM to find it's way into iMacs.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't think there will be anymore G4s in the pmacs. We have no reason to believe that the G4 can scale much higher seeing that the past update broke the 'high becomes low' trend Apple has followed recently. I would rather Apple wait and do nothing for a few months longer and release the 970 then use use the G4 for another 6 months. I want the 970 this year, so that means no more G4s