My God Thurrot is a flaming idiot.
Let's be honest. His http://www.internet-nexus.com/ site should be www.hateapple-internet-nexus.com
Get a load of these stupid comments.
hahahahah Tiger= a windows Service Pack. Riiiight. Then why don't I have any cool features in SP2 like Spotlight? Or how about the lack of a 5 client license for $199 or full LAN networking (XP Home) in the windows OS?
Paul please save your "review" of Tiger.
Steve Jobs says:
[i[Tiger?s groundbreaking new features like Spotlight and Dashboard will change the way people use their computers, and drive our competitors nuts trying to copy them."[/i]
Idiot Thurrot responds
Yeah um..right Pauly.
I hate to give this guy ANY traffic so don't visit the site if you don't have to. If you agree with Pauly then just realize "game recognizes game"
Get a load of these stupid comments.
Quote:
I hope to post my full review of Mac OS X Tiger on the SuperSite for Windows today. The basic gist of it, however, is that Tiger is a good upgrade that should be free, because it doesn't offer a lot of major new functionality but rather does include a lot of minor upgrades and fit and finish-type improvements. Like XP Service Pack 2 (SP2), actually. That doesn't mean it's bad; it is, in fact, quite nice. But Tiger shouldn't cost $129. That's highway robbery.
I hope to post my full review of Mac OS X Tiger on the SuperSite for Windows today. The basic gist of it, however, is that Tiger is a good upgrade that should be free, because it doesn't offer a lot of major new functionality but rather does include a lot of minor upgrades and fit and finish-type improvements. Like XP Service Pack 2 (SP2), actually. That doesn't mean it's bad; it is, in fact, quite nice. But Tiger shouldn't cost $129. That's highway robbery.
hahahahah Tiger= a windows Service Pack. Riiiight. Then why don't I have any cool features in SP2 like Spotlight? Or how about the lack of a 5 client license for $199 or full LAN networking (XP Home) in the windows OS?
Paul please save your "review" of Tiger.
Steve Jobs says:
[i[Tiger?s groundbreaking new features like Spotlight and Dashboard will change the way people use their computers, and drive our competitors nuts trying to copy them."[/i]
Idiot Thurrot responds
Quote:
What an awesome quote, considering that Apple copied both Spotlight and Dashboard from competitors. Steve Jobs has no shame.
What an awesome quote, considering that Apple copied both Spotlight and Dashboard from competitors. Steve Jobs has no shame.
Yeah um..right Pauly.
I hate to give this guy ANY traffic so don't visit the site if you don't have to. If you agree with Pauly then just realize "game recognizes game"
Comments
Dashboard isn't an original idea.
Spotlight isn't an original idea.
Those are just technologies that already existed and Apple has prettied them up and put them into the OS. It's nice and cool, but there's nothing creative about it at all.
You can say it's nice to have them in, but to then go on to talk about people "copying" you deserves a healthy eye roll and exaggerated yawn.
As far as comparing X.3->X.4 to XPsp1->XPsp2, it's apples and oranges. Security Center was an extremely important addition to Windows, it filled a massive, gaping hole (well, mostly filled it). X.4 doesn't seem to cover any holes, it just adds some neato features (and there's nothing wrong with that).
I also think that $130 is too steep. I certainly wouldn't recommend anyone spend that for what is, essentially, Konfabulator and Google desktop search.
But it's plain and simple truth that 10.4 is a bigger upgrade from 10.3 than windows SP2 is from SP1. You could be using SP2 and not really know the difference between the original release, but when I use 10.3, I know that there's a lot of improvements since 10.1. The difference is obvious.
Security Center was an extremely important addition to Windows, it filled a massive, gaping hole (well, mostly filled it). X.4 doesn't seem to cover any holes, it just adds some neato features (and there's nothing wrong with that).
But it doesn't justify the upgrade from 2000 to XP, which seems to me hardly as good as 10.0 to 10.1, or 10.1 to 10.2. XP is just 2000 with a pretty face, some drivers, and it happens to be newer, so you can get things like .NET for it. But these aren't part of the package per se.
There's plenty of proverbial extortion on both sides of the game. If we don't think of all the bullshit Microsoft pulls "because we expect it from Microsoft," it doesn't mean that we aren't being fed a status quo from them that affects everyone else as well.
Jobs is a marketer and quite a savvy one. I don't think Apple would argue that they created that many markets. They do acknowledge when they have the better idea.
Dashboard isn't an original idea.
Spotlight isn't an original idea
But the implementation is. Innovation isn't about coming up with something new but rather accomplishing a task in a simplistic and natural way. Apple excels at this and in my opinion that "is" true innovation.
but there's nothing creative about it at all
True genius is making the difficult simple.
As far as comparing X.3->X.4 to XPsp1->XPsp2, it's apples and oranges. Security Center was an extremely important addition to Windows, it filled a massive, gaping hole (well, mostly filled it). X.4 doesn't seem to cover any holes, it just adds some neato features (and there's nothing wrong with that).
Note the "need" for a security system. Yes I'd call that a feature..albeit a year later than it should have come(1st SP)
X.4 covers enough holes.
Security- Private Browsing, Improve Firewall.
PDF- 1.5 support for reading/writing with Encryption. PDF forms and Annotations.
QT- More sane API with QTKit and threading.
Safari- RSS, Inline PDF, Faster performance new Webcore/
Blah blah blah.
Tiger has reduced the "holes" that have dogged us for a while. I won't bash Microsoft too much until they deliver Longhorn but they have A LOT of holes to fix. My girlfriend is extremely frustrated about the IE hijackers causing popups. I'm sure she's not alone.
To call Tiger equivalent to a Service Pack is so feckin' retarded it's beyond belief. It's absolutely "Thurrotian" hahah.
In that same time, a Mac user will have paid ~$500+ to keep their Mac in the latest OS release.
Furthermore; educational users get WindowsXP Pro for $5. We pay a discount for OSX... $89.
Of course, Microsoft has the luxury of not having to subsidize computer hardware manufacturing.
But the implementation is. ?
How is Dashboard anything but a beefed up & integrated Konfabulator?
How is Spotlight?s implementation ?original?; a touch of Google desktop search + a dash of Quicksilver?
You?re distracting from the fundamental argument here with flowery prose; neither of those are original ideas. They might be well implemented (as they should be, given the access Apple coders have to the Apple OS), but they are not original or creative.
If co-opting someone else?s idea into your own is innovation, there is probably no more innovative software maker in history than Microsoft.
True genius is making the difficult simple.
Dashboard doesn?t qualify for this at all, in any way. It?s a bunch of little widgets doing things that could be done many other ways, perhaps a tiny tiny bit faster.
Spotlight might kind of do something special, but the jury is still out.
Expose was an original idea, there is nothing like that in Tiger, nothing at all.
But it doesn't justify the upgrade from 2000 to XP, which seems to me hardly as good as 10.0 to 10.1, or 10.1 to 10.2. XP is just 2000 with a pretty face, some drivers, and it happens to be newer, so you can get things like .NET for it. But these aren't part of the package per se.
Splinemodel
That's true. Amazingly I just went to XP full time and my PC at home and frankly there's nothing in it that really make me go "wow that's new and really useful"
The Task Based interface drives me nuts(yes I disabled it). It's a "ho hum" OS.
Google Desktop ROCKS but that's compared to the crappy search tools native to the OS. It'll never be as good as Spotlight because it doesn't have the low level access that Spotlight has thus nifty feature like the buttons in the Spotlight bar to initate slideshows and Sheets isn't there.
Konfabulator- Sure I want embedded items in my desktop that consume resources %100 percent of the time.
With Tiger Apple has finally completed the development trifecta. Their Model-View-Controller paradigm is complete with Tiger bringing in the goods for managing your Model Objects.
Thurrot is a cheerleader fixated on trying to denigrate any Apple accomplishments. The fact is after watching Copeland go down in flames and Apple struggle...I can't think of a time where they have executed as well. If they can maintain dominance with iPods and expand the universe of products supporting it then they have room to grow even further.
In the meantime Microsoft is cutting features like crazy to ship Longhorn and losing talent to companies like Google.
It's no contest here what company has the quicker pulse.
How is Dashboard anything but a beefed up & integrated Konfabulator?
Because Konfabulator is architected to be closed. You can write Widgets that only work within Arlo's little compatibility box. Yes you can program them with Java and I think HTML but they just aren't robust nor do they tap into the resources of the OS.
Dashboard- open API, program widgets using any web authoring program thus Java/CSS/Flash etc are all supported. You have access to other system resources as well so take for instance the Phone Telephony manager Phlink 2.1 will now pull up any relevant emails and documents based on who's calling you using Spotlight. They have a Widget that shows the last 5 callers and another dials your contacts using a keypad or address book. There are similarities but far more difference that I can see.
Google Desktop- Is nice but without love level access to the OS you can't have smart folders nor does it catagorize your data into groups like Folders/Pictures/PDF etc. It's nice that it finds info but it's weak on how to display that information to the end user in an efficient way.
Spotlight might kind of do something special, but the jury is still out.
It's obvious that the tech is legit. Microsoft has been touting WinFS for a while and it's looking like it won't make the cut. Quicksilver is an app launcher but say I ask you to find me all the audio files on your computer over 5 megabytes modified in the last two weeks. Is Quicksilver going to help you do that? There are fundamental differences in how you will use both applications. Quicksilver can piggyback on Spotlight but they do not necessarily compete with each other the way people are assuming.
Tiger really seems to be misunderstood by many. The only way to really grok it is for us to use it and become accustomed to its features to the point where we cannot imagine going back to Panther.
Calling Tiger a modest upgrade is a slap in the face to hundreds of Apple Engineers who on their worst day are light years ahead of Thurrot when it comes to computer science.
The only thing I can see myself even considering having in the dashboard is stuff that doesn't chomp at my RAM all the time like the yellow pages, dictionary, etc. Forget the weather, stock quotes, etc.
Originally posted by hmurchison
But the implementation is. Innovation isn't about coming up with something new but rather accomplishing a task in a simplistic and natural way. Apple excels at this and in my opinion that "is" true innovation.
True, for the most part. But one thing has been bugging me:
The iTunes Dashboard widget. You've got to call up Dashboard and then hit the widget buttons to get iTunes to respond. It's an added step over the current idea of hitting the zoomed out mini iTunes. It doesn't make much sense to me that Apple would make you take that extra step, even if it's a very small step.
Dashboard- open API, program widgets using any web authoring program thus Java/CSS/Flash etc are all supported. You have access to other system resources as well so take for instance the Phone Telephony manager Phlink 2.1 will now pull up any relevant emails and documents based on who's calling you using Spotlight. They have a Widget that shows the last 5 callers and another dials your contacts using a keypad or address book. There are similarities but far more difference that I can see.
Yeah, "beefed up & integrated".
But it's the same concept; little applications that sit on your desktops and call out for information and perform tasks.
Google Desktop- Is nice but without love level access to the OS you can't have smart folders nor does it catagorize your data into groups like Folders/Pictures/PDF etc. It's nice that it finds info but it's weak on how to display that information to the end user in an efficient way.
Just as one would expect from coders who can put it right inside the OS, like I said.
And it's not just Google desktop search, there are other applications and file systems that work well with metadata. It's new to OSX and it's shiny and pretty, but it's not an original idea.
I'm not defending Thurrott here (I don't even know who he is), I'm just pointing out the obvious. Apple grabbed someone else's idea and plugged it into their OS and put a lot of resources into it. To steal a phrase from above, "whoopdie doo".
It's obvious that the tech is legit.
I agree, but I'm still not convinced it will be a big deal. It probably will be, but no one has even gotten to use it yet.
Yeah, "beefed up & integrated".
But it's the same concept; little applications that sit on your desktops and call out for information and perform tasks.
Yes but Konfabulator Widgets sit on your desktop all the time. I call up Dashboard Widgets via an Fkey. I like that control. I like the fact that Apple didn't create some artificial environment meaning we'll see Widgets that cover a variety of needs.
It's new to OSX and it's shiny and pretty, but it's not an original idea
No idea is original. Someone someplace has pondered everything known to man. I don't mind if Apple has what they consider a better way of handling a task. I don't applaud them for being first...I applaud them for being best in some cases.
It'll be interesting to see how Tiger supports new apps from ISVs. I got excited about Longhorn when I read the initial rumors. I didn't pull a Thurrot and downplay Longhorn as a Service Pack. Hey it's ok to be biased but you don't have to be a total tool.
Originally posted by groverat
Yeah, "beefed up & integrated".
But it's the same concept; little applications that sit on your desktops and call out for information and perform tasks.
Just as one would expect from coders who can put it right inside the OS, like I said.
And it's not just Google desktop search, there are other applications and file systems that work well with metadata. It's new to OSX and it's shiny and pretty, but it's not an original idea.
I'm not defending Thurrott here (I don't even know who he is), I'm just pointing out the obvious. Apple grabbed someone else's idea and plugged it into their OS and put a lot of resources into it. To steal a phrase from above, "whoopdie doo".
I agree, but I'm still not convinced it will be a big deal. It probably will be, but no one has even gotten to use it yet.
You would have more of a point if the OS were just a collection of stand alone apps and functions.
But Apple is creating a system here, an ecology of interdependent parts that are much more than the sum of same.
For instance, Apple obviously hasn't "invented" a search engine that utilizes meta-data. The idea is too intrinsic to contemporary file organization.
But what they appear to be doing with Spotlight is the first step in completely changing how we relate to the concept of "where my stuff is" on our computers. They can do that because they can leverage the Spotlight tech to interact with every aspect of the user experience, from how you treat email attachments to media management in the big pro apps.
Now you might consider that a sort of a cheat on running with other peoples ideas, like "access to low level code" is somehow unfair, but you have to ask yourself: if it seems like a good time for Apple to be adding system wide meta-data savvy file manipulation (and it is, no matter what other apps might be floating around), don't you think it's cool that they're implementing the idea in a such a far ranging, integrated, leverage-able fashion?
In other words, they didn't just copy some functionality, they took that functionality and used it to rework some of the basic underpinnings of the mac OS. I call that innovation (salutes briskly in the general direction of Cupertino), dammit!
Originally posted by groverat
Furthermore; educational users get WindowsXP Pro for $5. We pay a discount for OSX... $89.
This is a generalization. The educational price for Microsoft products (and for Apple products as well) depends on how much the particular college is willing to subsidize the students beyond the discount that Microsoft gives.
For example, at my college bookstore, the cost for a Windows XP Pro upgrade is $75.00. (This is the Microsoft software "rental" program.) Two years ago, under the previous contract, it was less, perhaps $25.00 for the latest system. (Tiger is $79.00.)
I'm surprised to find out that across the bay at UC Berkeley, I don't see a Microsoft rental program (after only a short look), but the boxed version is $92.00 (but their bookstore is restricted to students from that paraticular UC campus). (Panther is $69.00, no price posted for Tiger.)
At Stanford, Foothill College, DeAnza College, San Francisco City College, San Jose City College, San Jose State University, and California State University Hawyard, all within a 35 mile radius, the pricing might be different, and I might even be able to find the $5.00 program you mentioned at one of those places (although I would not be eligible to take advantage of it.)
Originally posted by hmurchison
I don't applaud them for being first...I applaud them for being best in some cases.
Well I wasn't talking about being best, I was talking about being first. Which is what the "copying" thing was all about.
addabox:
But what they appear to be doing with Spotlight is the first step in completely changing how we relate to the concept of "where my stuff is" on our computers.
This isn't new either. Not that it won't work, but this has been tried before.
New technology can always make what previous didn't work well prosper and thrive, but it's difficult for me to imagine that people will actually stop caring *where* their files are. People are (rightly) married to the file paradigm; I say rightly because you're going to need to know where your stuff is if you need to transport it or back it up.
Not that the two ideas are mutually exclusive, far from it. Spotlight looks like it will be a great way to interact with the existing paradigm, but it's not going to "completely change" the paradigm. At least, I'll be damned if it does because I want to know where my stuff is so I can control it.
don't you think it's cool that they're implementing the idea in a such a far ranging, integrated, leverage-able fashion?
Absolutely, it is very cool. I'm happy to see it and I hope it works really well.
I just abhor the bullshit assertion Jobs makes that when someone else does it that it's "copying". It makes me want to throttle the smug bastard because it's so arrogant and false.
I'm not anti-Spotlight, I'm anti-assclownery, which is what Jobs little statement was.
Skipjack:
This is a generalization.
You are 100% correct, I should have been more specific about how it was just my university.
I don't know what I'll do with myself once I can't run over to the Campus Computer store and grab the newest Windows and Office with a $10 bill.
I don't know what I'll do with myself once I can't run over to the Campus Computer store and grab the newest Windows and Office with a $10 bill.
no doubt! I'm loving every minute of it as well. Just went to Office 2003 and grabbed another XP "just in case" hey can't argue with $4.
Hey I'm fickle..when Microsoft gives me Mac Office with VPC for selling them...I show'em a little love. I wish Apple was a bit less stingy about their products but after dealing with them for years it's obvious that nothing is going to change.
I do grow weary of Jobs marketing. I mean let your product stand on its own.
Originally posted by groverat
(snip) I'm not anti-Spotlight, I'm anti-assclownery (snip)
Oh please please please make this your sig......
Originally posted by rageous
True, for the most part. But one thing has been bugging me:
The iTunes Dashboard widget. You've got to call up Dashboard and then hit the widget buttons to get iTunes to respond. It's an added step over the current idea of hitting the zoomed out mini iTunes. It doesn't make much sense to me that Apple would make you take that extra step, even if it's a very small step.
but i dont have enough screen space on 1024x768 to be able to have mini iTunes on the foreground. so either i have to click on it in the dock to have it come up or alt-tab do bring it to the foreground.
with Dashboard, i can hit one key, and voila, iTunes widget is there. at the same time i can also see what the weather is or have a quick glance at stocks, and see perhaps a quick summary of my latest emails.
that's how i envision using Dashboard if and when i upgrade to it.
and while i am here, equating XP Service Pack 2 to Tiger just does not make sense. 10.3 Panther has had 8 major upgrades, all free, and in most cases made your operating system more secure, more efficient, and more enjoyable. a user is not likely to upgrade to Tiger because of a desperate attempt to salvage whatever investment they have in their computing set up. they'll do it because they want to and they enjoy it. people who depend on a mission-critical computer setup for a living will certainly wait till 10.4.2 or something is out or install 10.4.0 on a secondary computer and monitor/test/ measure its performance.
Once you start using it, it will change how you access your files, and use the computer. All the time spent organizing and making folders can now be spent on inputting metadata.
Not expecting an eventual re-implementation in the updated OS would be stupid. Trying to make a buck while the opportunity is there is a good idea. Whining when that opportunity closes out shows a lack of foresight.
Originally posted by Nebagakid
Spotlight is worth the $129 alone... believe me.
Once you start using it, it will change how you access your files, and use the computer. All the time spent organizing and making folders can now be spent on inputting metadata.
What do you mean "inputting metadata"? We can do that?