What's next, "One doesn't put multi-core CPUs in a laptop"? Oh wait, been done. How is this different, again?
The ante was upped, it happens a lot. Technology shifts downmarket, singles to duals, duals to dual dual core. Like memory, dual channel memory was a workstation feature that migrated down, workstations are moving to quad channel or other higher bandwidth memory. Most desktop systems are limited to four memory slots because that's all that market needs, many workstations have offered eight slots for nearly a decade.
Quote:
What about them? The lack of eSATA? The lack of SCSI? The lack of SAS? Or of FiberChannel?
I was referring to the expansion slots. Granted, SCSI isn't built-in to PowerMacs but it does offer 1394b built-in. eSATA doesn't seem to be standard integrated component in anyone's workstation model like yet. I wasn't aware that SAS or FiberChannel was a standard integrated workstation feature, I think that's probably more enterprise targeted techs. Those running any of these other than eSATA generally aren't running them on a consumer computer.
The ante was upped, it happens a lot. Technology shifts downmarket, singles to duals, duals to dual dual core. Like memory, dual channel memory was a workstation feature that migrated down, workstations are moving to quad channel or other higher bandwidth memory. Most desktop systems are limited to four memory slots because that's all that market needs, many workstations have offered eight slots for nearly a decade.
You're contradicting yourself. I'll leave it as an exercise for the reader to find out where.
Quote:
I was referring to the expansion slots.
What about them? PCIe isn't special any more, and if you're referring to PCI-X, which the Power Mac G5 no longer has, the $400 Athlon 64 I built last year had that, too. So, nothing special either.
As you said, "the ante was upped; technology shifts downmarket".
Quote:
I wasn't aware that SAS or FiberChannel was a standard integrated workstation feature, I think that's probably more enterprise targeted techs.
So now you're distinguishing not only between desktop and workstation, but also between workstation and enterprise computer?
Isn't "enterprise" part of the very definition of a workstation; the very defining element that once separated it from a 'mere consumer desktop'?
What about them? PCIe isn't special any more, and if you're referring to PCI-X, which the Power Mac G5 no longer has, the $400 Athlon 64 I built last year had that, too. So, nothing special either.
Re: PCI-X, I know, but I was talking for the respective era. Almost no conventional desktop offered anything better than PCI. To get PCI-X, you got a workstation or server.
As for PCIe, I don't know of any consumer desktops that offer more than two PCIe slots where the additional slots are larger than 1x.
Quote:
So now you're distinguishing not only between desktop and workstation, but also between workstation and enterprise computer?
Enterprise computer would be a large server, serving many users at the same time, like the XServe. A workstation computer is generally a single user product.
I do understand that the market segments aren't as differentiated as they were in the past, but that doesn't mean that they are now just one category without any differentiation at all.
I do understand that the market segments aren't as differentiated as they were in the past, but that doesn't mean that they are now just one category without any differentiation at all.
I really don't think it's useful to distinguish between desktop and workstation any more.
I really don't think it's useful to distinguish between desktop and workstation any more.
If you want, you can just think of it as a pro desktop or non-consumer desktop, which I just shorthand as workstation. It is at least useful as a market differentiation if even you don't think there is any system differentiation. Performance-wise, there's no rigid boundary but I think there is in terms of features, development, marketing, who uses it and what they use it for. It's anything but the kind of machine that a consumer would use, and it's usually not the thing a rabid gamer would get either.
This does not compute. If the specs are true, it'd be a real disappointment. If the cheese grater front stays the same, another disappointment. A Woodcrest mobo would use SATA2, for one thing. For another, the memory would be different. Apple certainly needs to offer a configuration that includes a pair of 3 GHz Woodies, even as a BTO option.
How about 4 HD slots? How about a pair of 16x PCI Express slots instead of 1? At least let gamer types put together SLI graphics. Of course, it's possible to have a twin-GPU card with single slot SLI. How about including an option like that?
Speaking of graphics cards, how about an ATI X1900 series or a GeForce 7900 series option? There should also be options for workstation graphics cards.
Come on, already! We were promised 3 GHz years ago. Now that it's finally possible, offer the damn thing.
They can't. nVidia does not support SLI on non-nVidia chipsets.
you can claim that all you want, but it works fine... and they sell it... Nviida only links to "certified SLI systems" if they have an nvidia chipset...
while you can SLI on intel chipsets, that link is a Dell nvidia chipset machine, not intel.
Remember the "chipset" is not the processor... many use that term incorrectly
I don't remember anyone here or anywhere using that term incorrectly in recent months.
Dell's site says that the Precision 690 uses an Intel chipset:
Quote:
Chipset
Intel® 5000X chipset
At the core of Dell Precision 64-bit dual-socket workstations is the Intel 5000x chipset,
It doesn't say anything about using an nVidia board chipset. It looks like a fairly new system, I didn't realize that SAS was being offered for workstations now. The 690 is a pretty impressive system, offering up to 64GB memory capacity with up to 16 slots. It's defininitely not cheap to max out this sytem, with the configurator I think I hit $70k, just experimenting.
I don't remember anyone here or anywhere using that term incorrectly in recent months.
Dell's site says that the Precision 690 uses an Intel chipset:
It doesn't say anything about using an nVidia board chipset. It looks like a fairly new system, I didn't realize that SAS was being offered for workstations now. The 690 is a pretty impressive system, offering up to 64GB memory capacity with up to 16 slots. It's defininitely not cheap to max out this sytem, with the configurator I think I hit $70k, just experimenting.
I don't know if anybody is confused on chipsets but there is some confusion on the board as to what the chipsets support.
A link to Intel will indicate what the Woodcrest 5000 series chipsets support.
There are three flavors of the 5000 chipset. Two for servers and one for a workstation. The earlier posts about Nvidia being the only supplier of SLI technology also sound correct based on the article that I just read on Anandtech about the capabilities of Conroe and Intel chipsets (another thread on Appleinside). Intel does not share well and on new processors often has an exclusive on the supporting chipsets. Anandtech could not do an SLI comparison on Conroe versus Athalon because the 975X chipset does not support SLI. Only Nvidia chipsets support SLI. ATI has a competing technology that they used for gaming performance using two X1900XTs in 'Crossfire' mode.
So it seems likely that the Intel 5000 chipset does not support SLI either. Nvidia owns it.
The Dell machine linked from an earlier post is the XPS700 and it has SLI and an Nvidia chipset, the 590 (which supports Intel chips, is brand new and a competitor for the 975X).
So it seems likely that the Intel 5000 chipset does not support SLI either. Nvidia owns it.
The Dell machine linked from an earlier post is the XPS700 and it has SLI and an Nvidia chipset, the 590 (which supports Intel chips, is brand new and a competitor for the 975X).
the 5000X does not officially support it from intel or nvidia, but it does work.
no the 975 series does not, so this is more of a Xeon 5100 thing that might be used on 4 core Macs, as those wont run on the 975 anyways
also i was saying that you can run SLI on an intel chipset (5000X), but there is no evidence saying that Apple is going to use an intel chipset... they could very easily use an nvidia.
the 5000X does not officially support it from intel or nvidia, but it does work.
no the 975 series does not, so this is more of a Xeon 5100 thing that might be used on 4 core Macs, as those wont run on the 975 anyways
also i was saying that you can run SLI on an intel chipset (5000X), but there is no evidence saying that Apple is going to use an intel chipset... they could very easily use an nvidia.
The way I understand it (I may be wrong.) the Intel chipset is the only party in town for the brand new chips from Intel. AMD releases chips with supporting chipsets from other vendors but Intel has enough Fab that they go it alone and let the others chipset vendors play catch-up (and often pass).
I found a link on SLI and the 5000X chipset on a gamer site and it says that it doesn't actually work. It supports four monitors, which I think two ATI cards will do as well, but it detects that the motherboard is not Nvidia and gives an error message on actual SLI performance.
Here's the real reason the low-end Mac Pros will be Quad: AMD's 4x4 initiative. In theory, AMD might cut low-end X2 or even FX prices by 1/3 to 1/2, which'll leave you with some bargain prices. They are then releasing a motherboard that can have two X2s or FXs (these are Athlons, not Opterons) on a prosumer desktop board. Additionally, Dell/everyone will have 2.4 or 2.67 GHz Conroes shipping for $1500.
Therefore, a Mac Pro running a 2.33 or 2.0 GHz single Woodcrest would get "pwn3d" by a mid-line XPS. Thus Apple needs to have at least a 2.66 GHz chip in there. And with AMD bringing dual-socket to the Prosumer (non-workstation or enterprise) market, Apple will be a good position to put a 2.0 GHz dual-dual setup in the Mac Pro (which, IIRC, is cheaper than a 2.67 GHz Woodcrest). That way, it side-steps fighting XPSes, dominates Precisions on pricing, and we all know a 2.0 GHz Woodcrest is gonna own a X2 or most FXs, and certainly anything you can get at $2k.
Here's the real reason the low-end Mac Pros will be Quad: AMD's 4x4 initiative. In theory, AMD might cut low-end X2 or even FX prices by 1/3 to 1/2, which'll leave you with some bargain prices. They are then releasing a motherboard that can have two X2s or FXs (these are Athlons, not Opterons) on a prosumer desktop board. Additionally, Dell/everyone will have 2.4 or 2.67 GHz Conroes shipping for $1500.
Therefore, a Mac Pro running a 2.33 or 2.0 GHz single Woodcrest would get "pwn3d" by a mid-line XPS. Thus Apple needs to have at least a 2.66 GHz chip in there. And with AMD bringing dual-socket to the Prosumer (non-workstation or enterprise) market, Apple will be a good position to put a 2.0 GHz dual-dual setup in the Mac Pro (which, IIRC, is cheaper than a 2.67 GHz Woodcrest). That way, it side-steps fighting XPSes, dominates Precisions on pricing, and we all know a 2.0 GHz Woodcrest is gonna own a X2 or most FXs, and certainly anything you can get at $2k.
Woodcrest needs FB-DIMMs
Apple needs a $1500 singe duel core with good video system to compete with dell and others.
Amd 4X4 can use ddr2 non ecc and SLI with NVIDIA chip set / cross fire with a ATI one.
And when quad-core core come out amd 4x4 will let you have 2 of them and they will not be choked up like Intel ones that are 2 duel cores on one cpu linked by a FSB.
What's next, "One doesn't put multi-core CPUs in a laptop"? Oh wait, been done. How is this different, again?
Because a single lower clock rate multi-core part is more power efficient than a single core high clocked part or a multi-chip processor arrangement. Also, the Xeons are built with a high power target which is what makes them Xeons and this does not fit well with the laptop market. So no, you will never see a Xeon in a laptop (unless Intel significantly redefines how they use the term) but you will see chips with the performance levels of the current (and past) Xeons in laptops as technology moves forward.
Comments
Originally posted by Chucker
What's next, "One doesn't put multi-core CPUs in a laptop"? Oh wait, been done. How is this different, again?
The ante was upped, it happens a lot. Technology shifts downmarket, singles to duals, duals to dual dual core. Like memory, dual channel memory was a workstation feature that migrated down, workstations are moving to quad channel or other higher bandwidth memory. Most desktop systems are limited to four memory slots because that's all that market needs, many workstations have offered eight slots for nearly a decade.
Quote:
What about them? The lack of eSATA? The lack of SCSI? The lack of SAS? Or of FiberChannel?
I was referring to the expansion slots. Granted, SCSI isn't built-in to PowerMacs but it does offer 1394b built-in. eSATA doesn't seem to be standard integrated component in anyone's workstation model like yet. I wasn't aware that SAS or FiberChannel was a standard integrated workstation feature, I think that's probably more enterprise targeted techs. Those running any of these other than eSATA generally aren't running them on a consumer computer.
Originally posted by JeffDM
The ante was upped, it happens a lot. Technology shifts downmarket, singles to duals, duals to dual dual core. Like memory, dual channel memory was a workstation feature that migrated down, workstations are moving to quad channel or other higher bandwidth memory. Most desktop systems are limited to four memory slots because that's all that market needs, many workstations have offered eight slots for nearly a decade.
You're contradicting yourself. I'll leave it as an exercise for the reader to find out where.
I was referring to the expansion slots.
What about them? PCIe isn't special any more, and if you're referring to PCI-X, which the Power Mac G5 no longer has, the $400 Athlon 64 I built last year had that, too. So, nothing special either.
As you said, "the ante was upped; technology shifts downmarket".
I wasn't aware that SAS or FiberChannel was a standard integrated workstation feature, I think that's probably more enterprise targeted techs.
So now you're distinguishing not only between desktop and workstation, but also between workstation and enterprise computer?
Isn't "enterprise" part of the very definition of a workstation; the very defining element that once separated it from a 'mere consumer desktop'?
Originally posted by Chucker
What about them? PCIe isn't special any more, and if you're referring to PCI-X, which the Power Mac G5 no longer has, the $400 Athlon 64 I built last year had that, too. So, nothing special either.
Re: PCI-X, I know, but I was talking for the respective era. Almost no conventional desktop offered anything better than PCI. To get PCI-X, you got a workstation or server.
As for PCIe, I don't know of any consumer desktops that offer more than two PCIe slots where the additional slots are larger than 1x.
Quote:
So now you're distinguishing not only between desktop and workstation, but also between workstation and enterprise computer?
Enterprise computer would be a large server, serving many users at the same time, like the XServe. A workstation computer is generally a single user product.
I do understand that the market segments aren't as differentiated as they were in the past, but that doesn't mean that they are now just one category without any differentiation at all.
Originally posted by JeffDM
To get PCI-X, you got a workstation or server.
Yes, that is (well, was) true.
I do understand that the market segments aren't as differentiated as they were in the past, but that doesn't mean that they are now just one category without any differentiation at all.
I really don't think it's useful to distinguish between desktop and workstation any more.
Originally posted by Chucker
I really don't think it's useful to distinguish between desktop and workstation any more.
If you want, you can just think of it as a pro desktop or non-consumer desktop, which I just shorthand as workstation. It is at least useful as a market differentiation if even you don't think there is any system differentiation. Performance-wise, there's no rigid boundary but I think there is in terms of features, development, marketing, who uses it and what they use it for. It's anything but the kind of machine that a consumer would use, and it's usually not the thing a rabid gamer would get either.
Originally posted by Rolo
This does not compute. If the specs are true, it'd be a real disappointment. If the cheese grater front stays the same, another disappointment. A Woodcrest mobo would use SATA2, for one thing. For another, the memory would be different. Apple certainly needs to offer a configuration that includes a pair of 3 GHz Woodies, even as a BTO option.
How about 4 HD slots? How about a pair of 16x PCI Express slots instead of 1? At least let gamer types put together SLI graphics. Of course, it's possible to have a twin-GPU card with single slot SLI. How about including an option like that?
Speaking of graphics cards, how about an ATI X1900 series or a GeForce 7900 series option? There should also be options for workstation graphics cards.
Come on, already! We were promised 3 GHz years ago. Now that it's finally possible, offer the damn thing.
SLI does not work with intel chip sets
Originally posted by Joe_the_dragon
SLI does not work with intel chip sets
thats not true... even Dell sells Xeon workstations with Intel 5000X chipsets and dual x16 PCIe slots and SLI configed video cards...
why wont apple?
Originally posted by doh123
thats not true... even Dell sells Xeon workstations with Intel 5000X chipsets and dual x16 PCIe slots and SLI configed video cards...
They can't. nVidia does not support SLI on non-nVidia chipsets.
Originally posted by Zandros
They can't. nVidia does not support SLI on non-nVidia chipsets.
you can claim that all you want, but it works fine... and they sell it... Nviida only links to "certified SLI systems" if they have an nvidia chipset...
http://www.dell.com/content/learnmor...ecn&~tab=other
Originally posted by Zandros
They can't. nVidia does not support SLI on non-nVidia chipsets.
See this:
http://www.dell.com/content/products...=19&l=en&s=dhs
"The ultimate gaming solution includes the optional NVIDIA® Quad SLI..."
Steve
Originally posted by demenas
See this:
http://www.dell.com/content/products...=19&l=en&s=dhs
"The ultimate gaming solution includes the optional NVIDIA® Quad SLI..."
Steve
while you can SLI on intel chipsets, that link is a Dell nvidia chipset machine, not intel.
Remember the "chipset" is not the processor... many use that term incorrectly
Originally posted by doh123
while you can SLI on intel chipsets, that link is a Dell nvidia chipset machine, not intel.
Remember the "chipset" is not the processor... many use that term incorrectly
I don't remember anyone here or anywhere using that term incorrectly in recent months.
Dell's site says that the Precision 690 uses an Intel chipset:
Chipset
Intel® 5000X chipset
At the core of Dell Precision 64-bit dual-socket workstations is the Intel 5000x chipset,
It doesn't say anything about using an nVidia board chipset. It looks like a fairly new system, I didn't realize that SAS was being offered for workstations now. The 690 is a pretty impressive system, offering up to 64GB memory capacity with up to 16 slots. It's defininitely not cheap to max out this sytem, with the configurator I think I hit $70k, just experimenting.
Originally posted by JeffDM
I don't remember anyone here or anywhere using that term incorrectly in recent months.
Dell's site says that the Precision 690 uses an Intel chipset:
It doesn't say anything about using an nVidia board chipset. It looks like a fairly new system, I didn't realize that SAS was being offered for workstations now. The 690 is a pretty impressive system, offering up to 64GB memory capacity with up to 16 slots. It's defininitely not cheap to max out this sytem, with the configurator I think I hit $70k, just experimenting.
I don't know if anybody is confused on chipsets but there is some confusion on the board as to what the chipsets support.
A link to Intel will indicate what the Woodcrest 5000 series chipsets support.
http://indigo.intel.com/compare_cpu/...&culture=en-US
There are three flavors of the 5000 chipset. Two for servers and one for a workstation. The earlier posts about Nvidia being the only supplier of SLI technology also sound correct based on the article that I just read on Anandtech about the capabilities of Conroe and Intel chipsets (another thread on Appleinside). Intel does not share well and on new processors often has an exclusive on the supporting chipsets. Anandtech could not do an SLI comparison on Conroe versus Athalon because the 975X chipset does not support SLI. Only Nvidia chipsets support SLI. ATI has a competing technology that they used for gaming performance using two X1900XTs in 'Crossfire' mode.
So it seems likely that the Intel 5000 chipset does not support SLI either. Nvidia owns it.
The Dell machine linked from an earlier post is the XPS700 and it has SLI and an Nvidia chipset, the 590 (which supports Intel chips, is brand new and a competitor for the 975X).
Originally posted by Silverdog
So it seems likely that the Intel 5000 chipset does not support SLI either. Nvidia owns it.
The Dell machine linked from an earlier post is the XPS700 and it has SLI and an Nvidia chipset, the 590 (which supports Intel chips, is brand new and a competitor for the 975X).
the 5000X does not officially support it from intel or nvidia, but it does work.
no the 975 series does not, so this is more of a Xeon 5100 thing that might be used on 4 core Macs, as those wont run on the 975 anyways
also i was saying that you can run SLI on an intel chipset (5000X), but there is no evidence saying that Apple is going to use an intel chipset... they could very easily use an nvidia.
Originally posted by doh123
the 5000X does not officially support it from intel or nvidia, but it does work.
no the 975 series does not, so this is more of a Xeon 5100 thing that might be used on 4 core Macs, as those wont run on the 975 anyways
also i was saying that you can run SLI on an intel chipset (5000X), but there is no evidence saying that Apple is going to use an intel chipset... they could very easily use an nvidia.
The way I understand it (I may be wrong.) the Intel chipset is the only party in town for the brand new chips from Intel. AMD releases chips with supporting chipsets from other vendors but Intel has enough Fab that they go it alone and let the others chipset vendors play catch-up (and often pass).
I found a link on SLI and the 5000X chipset on a gamer site and it says that it doesn't actually work. It supports four monitors, which I think two ATI cards will do as well, but it detects that the motherboard is not Nvidia and gives an error message on actual SLI performance.
http://www.gamepc.com
Therefore, a Mac Pro running a 2.33 or 2.0 GHz single Woodcrest would get "pwn3d" by a mid-line XPS. Thus Apple needs to have at least a 2.66 GHz chip in there. And with AMD bringing dual-socket to the Prosumer (non-workstation or enterprise) market, Apple will be a good position to put a 2.0 GHz dual-dual setup in the Mac Pro (which, IIRC, is cheaper than a 2.67 GHz Woodcrest). That way, it side-steps fighting XPSes, dominates Precisions on pricing, and we all know a 2.0 GHz Woodcrest is gonna own a X2 or most FXs, and certainly anything you can get at $2k.
Originally posted by ZachPruckowski
Here's the real reason the low-end Mac Pros will be Quad: AMD's 4x4 initiative. In theory, AMD might cut low-end X2 or even FX prices by 1/3 to 1/2, which'll leave you with some bargain prices. They are then releasing a motherboard that can have two X2s or FXs (these are Athlons, not Opterons) on a prosumer desktop board. Additionally, Dell/everyone will have 2.4 or 2.67 GHz Conroes shipping for $1500.
Therefore, a Mac Pro running a 2.33 or 2.0 GHz single Woodcrest would get "pwn3d" by a mid-line XPS. Thus Apple needs to have at least a 2.66 GHz chip in there. And with AMD bringing dual-socket to the Prosumer (non-workstation or enterprise) market, Apple will be a good position to put a 2.0 GHz dual-dual setup in the Mac Pro (which, IIRC, is cheaper than a 2.67 GHz Woodcrest). That way, it side-steps fighting XPSes, dominates Precisions on pricing, and we all know a 2.0 GHz Woodcrest is gonna own a X2 or most FXs, and certainly anything you can get at $2k.
Woodcrest needs FB-DIMMs
Apple needs a $1500 singe duel core with good video system to compete with dell and others.
Amd 4X4 can use ddr2 non ecc and SLI with NVIDIA chip set / cross fire with a ATI one.
And when quad-core core come out amd 4x4 will let you have 2 of them and they will not be choked up like Intel ones that are 2 duel cores on one cpu linked by a FSB.
Originally posted by Chucker
What's next, "One doesn't put multi-core CPUs in a laptop"? Oh wait, been done. How is this different, again?
Because a single lower clock rate multi-core part is more power efficient than a single core high clocked part or a multi-chip processor arrangement. Also, the Xeons are built with a high power target which is what makes them Xeons and this does not fit well with the laptop market. So no, you will never see a Xeon in a laptop (unless Intel significantly redefines how they use the term) but you will see chips with the performance levels of the current (and past) Xeons in laptops as technology moves forward.