PShimi

GeorgeBMac said:

PShimi said:

The Chinese government reads EVERYTHING that goes through WeChat. Nothing is too big or too small for them to use against people and suppress them. In China, if you complain about the police taking people's motorbikes (in a WeChat group), an hour to two later they will be knocking at your door - stick you in a steel frame chair (with your hands cuffed to the chair) and interrogate you. They won't beat you, but they will threaten to get your family involved if you don't co-operate, say you were wrong, and tell them how much you love the police.

Let's be clear, the Chinese police is a direct arm of the CCP. The information comes from Tencent, the Chinese firm that developed WeChat (oh, and they copied What's App and a few other apps to do that - then after WeChat was ready, the Chinese government banned What's App in China - just in case you didn't know that - look it up).

All kinds of sensitive information is shared on WeChat across the world - it doesn't have to be the plans or the data to a secret new something or other - but if it is a password to something (people are that dumb) or information indicating that someone (let's call them 'the bate') is friends with someone high up in a company the CCP wish to target, it gives them a way in to someone or something they want to target.

Example: An American firm is owned by a Chinese firm, the 'president' of this 'American' firm introduces him/herself to the bate (the reason for the '' is that the firm is not really American, and the president of the firm is no more than a puppet). After a month or two of exchanging pleasantries, they say that they want to invest in such and such a company (the target). The bate says 'oh I am friends with someone in that company, let me introduce you'. This 'president' is then introduced as 'a friend' of the bate, and as the president of an American company. Long story story short, the target ends up accepting a massive investment from the 'American' company without realising that the company is in fact owned and controlled by the Chinese government - because the person making the deal was a friend of a friend they trusted them. Later on, the Chinese government starts twisting the arms of people in this company via the 'American' company to do what they want them to do. It won't be clear to them that they are being manipulated by a foreign power either.

This scenario is my own writing - I didn't read about this example somewhere. It is simply an example of how soft power works and how the Chinese government creeps in. It is a very simplistic example, but I think you get the idea.

Using this kind of soft power, they then start leaning on their next targets using what they currently have under their thumb.

In real life, there are examples of this soft power at work - just in case you have the notion that this 'soft power' is not a serious threat to a country's democracy. The Canadian broadcaster CBC (Canada's version of the British BBC) is under the thumb of the CCP. It is not overt, but every now and then something happens that makes this pretty clear. Example - a Chinese news paper in Canada written by Chinese people in English (and not owned by the CCP, and who are not under the thumb of the CCP)  was delivered en mass to Canadian's doors even to people that didn't subscribe to it. The paper had articles about what the Chinese government had been doing (such as hiding the existence of covid19 when they knew about it at least as early as Nov 2019).
So what does the CBC do? They did a news program interviewing 'outraged' Canadians who were scared of the 'false information' and said how 'racist' the news paper was (a Chinese news paper written by Chinese people about China is apparently racist? Just you wait, this happens a lot - whenever someone does something outside of China that exposes the CCP - it will immediately be labeled as racist - even if it is not racist at all and is an actual fact of something that happened.)

Another example is the raising of the Chinese flag at an Australian police station. An authoritarian regime's flag being raised on a democratic country's soil (look it up). How do you think that happened? Soft power.
WeChat helps them to do this because they can collect information about people (not just meta data, but people's conversations), and they use it.

OK, so why is Apple supporting this?
In China WeChat is one of the main payment systems, along with AliPay.

The US government is saying that not only should WeChat be banned in the US, but that US companies should not use WeChat (is this correct?) I am not sure if this extends to the use of WeChat on iPhones in China to pay for Apps on the App Store (is this how payment of Apps works in China - people use WeChat to pay?)
Could this be why Apple is against this? I am asking this because I don't know, but I have to think there must be a monetary reason why Apple wants to support the CCP.

I'm going to ask the question that may (or may not) be on everyone's minds: Is the CCP pressuring Apple that if they do not support WeChat, the CCP will retaliate against Apple in some way, shape or form?
Because - Apple is all about PRIVACY... right? They drone on and on about it - but we know for a fact that WeChat is NOT about PRIVACY. So how could Apple possibly support this? It does not make any sense.


As for people trying to say that the US should not ban WeChat because they (the US) do bad things too (so we should keep letting China do bad things) - are you serious? I think that's a poor argument. In fact, I think it is disgusting. It's like saying a guy is raping women every week, but it's OK because this other guy is doing the same thing. No one would stand for that, but somehow it's OK to let China do that?

People need to realise that China doesn't only target the US (as in the Canada example above) but many other countries. Australia is in deep trouble with China (in order to understand how WeChat can be used, and Apple's position in all this, we need to understand what China is doing around the world, and how WeChat is part of that):

When Australia wanted to look into the origins of covid19 - to understand how it spread, and how to stop that kind of thing happening again (this is how science works, and it is perfectly logical and reasonable to do this) the Chinese government tried to stop them, and claimed they were being racist (this information is freely available, I suggest you read about it if you haven't already).
Why would they try to stop someone doing scientific study on a virus that has caused hundreds of thousands of lost lives? Understanding the history of a virus, knowing how it has evolved up till now, helps us understand how it may change in the future. This is standard scientific practice. [EDIT: They did this because they want to claim that the virus did not originate in China, and therefore is not China's responsibility. Scientific data on the virus' origins can pin point when and where it emerged, and the CCP do not want this.]

They told Australia that if it persisted, China would stop importing Australian wine and other things in retaliation. A Chinese news paper (owned and run by the CCP) called Australia 'gum stuck on China's shoe that needs to be scraped off with a stone' or words to that effect (again, look it up). And this comment is interesting in the light of the fact that China owns vital infrastructure, including Port Darwin, and an airport in Australia. They also have a Chinese CCP member in Australia's government (the member of parliament admitted to this, but claimed they did not work for the CCP anymore - which is highly doubtful).
They are constantly pushing other countries around - using land and property they own, but also information they have gleaned from WeChat, which is merely one of many tools used by the Chinese government.

Why would Apple want to support this?

As an aside (if this part is deemed too political please inform me and I will edit it out - but I do think people need to understand this):

Covid19 was renamed from the Wuhan virus by the WHO under pressure of the CCP. Why would they do this? Well, not long after China's own CDC (their own experts) said the virus originated in Wuhan, China, the CCP started saying the virus came from Italy (and they also tried saying Japan). It didn't go down well with the Chinese people they tested this story on. This was then morphed into it being from the USA - which apparently did go down well, because (you US citizens know this right?) your nation is being painted as releasing the Wuhan virus (sorry, Covid19) into China to the Chinese people.
I.e. This is not a Chinese problem, and therefore not the problem of the CCP - so in the Chinese people's eyes, the CCP did nothing wrong after all, and it is all America's fault.
And, by calling the virus Covid19 rather than the Wuhan virus (which is the point I am making here), it's clearly 'not from China' and the CCP has 'no culpability for hiding knowledge of the virus and allowing it to spread'. Of course, they do have knowledge that flights internal to China were banned to stop the spread (because they banned them), but international flights were encouraged (because they encouraged them) and yes, this is FACT not some nonsense tin foil conspiracy nut theory. It is absolute fact, and absolutely unforgivable. But no one seems to care.

A Chinese reporter in the USA called Simone Gao did an amazing documentary on this titled 'Coverup of the Century' (you can find it on Youtube). If you have any doubt that WeChat should be banned after seeing this very well researched documentary then there truly is no hope (a common comment on this documentary is that it is what unbiased, free press journalism, is supposed to be). I have to agree.

At the end of the day, Apple is leaving a seriously bad taste in my mouth.
I have never ever thought to use the phase "Steve would not do this" but I think I would be absolutely correct in saying "Steve would not do this". What is Tim Cook doing to Apple, and via Apple to the USA on behalf of (it seems, I have no proof, but having thought about what I have written above) the CCP.


Edited to clarify why China is blocking Australia - see [EDIT] above.

Some actual evidence would be nice.   All the Trumpers have is conspiracy theories used to distract from their own corruption and mismanagement.

....  So far, their evidence consists of:  "We say China is bad.  Therefor everything they do is bad.   Even if it isn't."

Every corrupt autocracy needs an enemy to distract from their own corruption.  And, in this case, in their politicized zeal, they transitioned from supposedly protecting American business and jobs to destroying them.

rain22 said:

Well... isn't that just indicative of Apple innovation of late. 

chasm said:

Rayz2016 said:

Well, the man clearly needs professional help.

He needed legal help and now he's thrown away his shot, but as the article notes he has in fact been recognized as having created a working microcomputer roughly four years before the Apple I came out.

You might want to read the article linked from the AI article about him: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/technology/canadian-hailed-as-father-of-pc/article1167114/

svanstrom said:

PShimi said:

GeorgeBMac said:

PShimi said:

GeorgeBMac said:

PShimi said:

...

Sure.

The below contains links that @GeorgeBMac has requested in support of what I wrote in a previous post. Most (but not all) of them do not talk about WeChat which is really what this thread is supposed to be about, but they do support my comments about what China has been doing, and in that vein, how Apple supporting the CCP over WeChat does not make any sense.

If you are busy and do not have time to look through all the below material, I would HIGHLY suggest you watch this - directly mentions WeChat various times:

Simone Gao documentary, 1 hour long, viewed over 2 million times - discusses how China hid the virus and lied about human to human transmission, including monitoring people via WeChat and using it as a tool of suppression:



Very interesting video that covers various topics but focuses on Canada's CBC extremely worrying pro CCP anti democratic news stories calling Chinese journalists racist against China when they were talking about the Chinese Government (i.e. it would be like saying someone was racist for saying the Nazis were bad - when the Nazis are not a race - a government is NOT a race) and attempts to conflate the CCP with the Chinese people which is again helping the CCP:



How China is gobbling up millions of acres of land, vital infrastructure and companies in Australia
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7725675/How-China-owns-Australia-buying-infrastructure-land-water.html

How China's CCP has taken control of Port Darwin in Australia for 99 years, a very important and strategic port:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-03-12/why-did-northern-territory-sell-darwin-port-to-china-what-risk/10755720


Google search: australia gum on shoe china
About 3,850,000 results
Suggest this article first:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/29/chewing-gum-stuck-on-the-sole-of-our-shoes-the-china-australia-war-of-words-timeline

Google: Australia threatened by China virus
China's government attempting to use economic coercion to stop Australia looking into virus further. This is in support of the comments I made about how the CCP is trying to remove the link between the CCP and the Virus:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8264031/Chinese-ambassador-threatens-destroy-Australias-economy-coronavirus-probe.html

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-australia-china/australia-rejects-chinese-economic-coercion-threat-amid-planned-coronavirus-probe-idUSKCN2290Z6

Connected with the above story:
'You will feel more pain': China's chilling new threat to devastate Australia's economy if it supports America in a 'new Cold War' (mentions the above stories)
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8353231/China-warns-Australia-feel-pain-economic-punishment.html


March earlier this year (well before the US was in the throws of Covid19): China Will Do Anything to Deflect Coronavirus Blame - points to Italy as the starting point of Covid19:
https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/03/30/beijing-coronavirus-response-see-what-sticks-propaganda-blame-ccp-xi-jinping/
https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3903271


As you can see, the information is out there. You do not need to look very far to find it. It is not as if you have to join some secret club, have a special handshake, and follow some mumbo jumbo.
Using WeChat for business communication is a serious danger not only for businesses but freedom in general. Ignoring this threat is like walking on a bed of snakes and pretending that none of them will bite you.



On to @GeorgeBMac later comments on Trump:

I said nothing about Trump. I find it strange how people often attempt to inject something about Trump when talking about China's CCP. I don't live in the US. I am not American. I do not really follow American politics. China affects the ENTIRE WORLD. How can you not understand that? This is NOT about Trump.

That said, your comment about protecting American businesses - well China is constantly draining information from around the world and using it to it's own ends. IP theft is a thing, it is ABSOLUTELY real. 

China's Harbin Z 20 is a virtual clone of America's Black Hawk.
https://www.businessinsider.com/china-tested-black-hawk-copy-z20-helicopter-on-advanced-destroyer-2019-7?r=US&IR=T

South China morning post called "China’s Z-20 Black Hawk lookalike"
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/military/article/3033088/chinas-z-20-black-hawk-lookalike-and-flying-saucer-concept

A bunch of fighter jets that are near copies:
https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/aviation/g23303922/china-copycat-air-force/


The point is - these are copied from the militaries of the world - who are 'well protected' and yet the CCP still manages to steal their data. Compared to this, stealing information from businesses is child's play, and WeChat makes this even easier.

So again, what is Apple doing!? It makes NO sense.

I was talking about evidence.   Not propaganda and selective 'facts'.

We do have hard evidence that Russia has attacked our last two elections and is proceeding to attack this one as well.  But for some reason Trump and his Trumpers ignore that and hyperfocus on China hate.   Why is that?   Could Russia be aiding Trump and China just a distraction?  

Around 11 different sources - is 'selective'? Well look, just Google it yourself. I just provided suggestions and tried to select from a variety of different sources on purpose to avoid being 'selective', but whatever.

Australia being bullied by China is propaganda. Um, OK. That's weird. I'm sure you know more than people in Australia do, apparently.

You clearly did not read my reply where I think I made it pretty clear I don't give a toss about Trump.

As for China 'hate' - this is getting a bit much. I am deeply concerned about the plight of the Chinese people in China due to what the CCP is doing to them, and what CCP is doing to the world. Everyone should be concerned about this. Don't think for a moment that what happened to Hong Kong is going to be the end of their aggression. Long after Trump is out of power, this is still going to be an issue for the world. It's not going to magically disappear.

At the end of the day, China uses WeChat to monitor people - Chinese people know that all too well.
By pushing WeChat to remain in use Apple are supporting the CCP to suppress the Chinese people.

If you don't want to understand, that's up to you. No one can open your eyes for you.

He's only in this to protect the CCP, and derail the thread with whataboutisms; so add the facts to the thread for other readers, and then move on. There's no other way forward; all that happens otherwise is that the thread gets muddled to the point where everyone ignores both his delusions and your facts.

loopless said:

Just 3 examples of the real app business world:

1. Of the 11 apps that I put on the App Store, 7 are loss making, 2 are about break even and 1 is making a nice profit.  This last app is profitable because it is multi-platform and because I can avoid the 30% Apple tax by charging the customer directly. 
   
2. If I would only make a iOS version of my apps, all my apps would be loss making.   Developing an app simultaneously for iOS, Android and Web costs roughly 40% more than making it for iOS only, but the revenues are more than double. So the "fact" that Apple is offering me the market I was dreaming of, is a fake fact
   
3. One of my colleague app business owners had spent 40.000 Euro in developing a new app, when Apple announced a change in its app developing guidelines.  His app could no longer pass the approval and he went broke 3 months later.   This is the business reality that you fail to understand.

Like in any other business, an app business owner want to cut costs wherever possible.   This has nothing to do with greediness or stupidity but with normal business practice.

I don't mind to pay a  commission to any business partner as long as that partner provides the right value for the commission.  Like all developers have discovered, the 30% cut Apple is imposing, does not provide the value it promises.    A survey among my paying customers revealed that none of them discovered the apps via the App Store, they did it via the direct marketing campaign I launch and paid.     Which basically means that Apple has just become a secure payment processor.  The market price of a secure payment processor is 2.7% and not 30%.   No wonder app developers try to avoid the Apple tax,

.

What a load of rubbish. Every sale of an app is "revenue" with no cost. The cost is the upfront development. You apps are obviously rubbish and no-one wants to buy them. Don't blame Apple for their "tax" that hosts your apps on the app store, promotes them via search, takes payments and takes care of all the other financials - including depositing revenue in your bank account along with extensive reporting on sales trends across all regions. Plus all the complex issues on sales on international app stores.

chadbag said:

Because we can buy apps in bricks and mortar stores.