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StrangeDays said:

avon b7 said:

Mike Wuerthele said:

avon b7 said:

tmay said:

avon b7 said:

tmay said:

avon b7 said:

tmay said:

avon b7 said:

M68000 said:

tyler82 said:

Until these are notchless, I’ll pass.

Apple seems to like it for whatever reason.  They must think that tiny bit of screen space is a good thing.  But it comes at a price.  The notch is both futuristic looking and distracting at the same time.  The eye is drawn to it often when looking at the new phones.   It may be possible to deal with it but it remains distracting.

I'm slowly coming round to the conclusion that the notch hasn't aged well from a design perspective.

At the time it was a necessary compromise for the objectives at hand. All notches were, but two years later, the exact same design with basically no improvement is beginning to look 'clunky' when compared to alternative options.

Don't get me wrong, I never had a problem with them from the get go and my current phone has one. For me it is not a problem at all, but times change.

We now have some spectacular full screen (or almost full screen) options on the market and choice in how to get them (sliders, pop-ups, hole punches).

The main reason for Apple's notch was FaceID (a simple biometric) and that hasn't really changed to this date. They haven't really moved forward with it in other ways either. In fact, the hardware is basically the same. I'm a big fan of rear mounted fingerprint sensors but since the iPhone X, in-screen biometric options have come a long way. They are performing well.

Two years later you look at the iPhone 11 Pro and the bezels and notch look bigger than they should be when others are doing more in less space or eliminating notches altogether.

I'm not sure why reducing the notch space hasn't been tackled on the new iPhones.

You lost me at "I'm a big fan of rear mounted fingerprint sensors".

Rear mounted fingerprint sensors were awful ergonomic design from day one because it was unavailable with the screen face up on a table or other surface. "But look how easy it is to slide your finger behind the phone to use it" you would state, which is still by definition. awful ergonomics.

I would be surprised if any device maker still uses it.

For the record, Apple fussing with the size and configuration of the notch, which isn't currently an issue at all, isn't going to happen because Apple already has a roadmap in place to fully replace Face ID sans notch.

Why waste engineering resources shrinking it?

We've been down this road before and nothing has changed since then.

Rear mounted fingerprint sensors are perfect ergonomic options. Many phones still use them.

If you are are going to actually use your phone there is no better place than in your hand.

If it is on a flat surface there is no problem. Why do you think double tap to wake was implemented? If it is 'mounted' (sat nav) there is no problem either as the screen doesn't turn off in the first place.

It is strange that after using rear mounted scanners for years and having literally zero problems with ergonomics and use, the only people that tell me they are bad/wrong are those that have never even used one.

As for making the notch smaller, it would make a massive difference in how the phone looks, competitors have not only already done this with dramatic results but they have managed to cram more tech inside and given that tech more uses.

If Apple hasn't done the same it very probably only cost related and has little to do with engineering resources.

The result is that it currently takes up most of the top part of the screen, which, as I said further up, may have been reasonable in 2017 but two years later (and unchanged) is now looking clunky. Especially as competitors have managed to free up much more space around it.

As I've stated numerous times, Apple's iPhone mostly doesn't  compete in the same market as Android OS Device makers have to compete in. Given that there is net transfer of users to iPhone, the user base continues to grow. To date, there has been very little crossover of Apple users to flagship Android OS devices, even in China, where nationalism has made Huawei the countries champion, especially over other Chinese OEM's. And yeah, I've seen your posts on that.

The constant change (chaos?) that is the Android OS device market, is really quite inefficient, and substantially effects margins, to the point that Apple's margins are over 4 times higher than Huawei's margins for its entire revenue (easily provable fact based on published revenue) while selling fewer iPhones at just under 3 times the ASP of Huawei (also an easily provable fact based on published revenue / units sold).

Apple makes substantially more revenue selling fewer iPhones, and magnitudes fewer models, and of course gains a massive difference in profitability for that. Given the you are always noting that "Apple had to reprice iPhones to compete", I would state that tactic has likely only cost them a single point of margin to date. Considering that Apple's margins are about 38% and Huawei's 8.7%, there's a lot of room for Apple to maneuver on price, it they decide to. 

Huawei will ship about 240 Million units this year, and Apple probably about 180 Million units, but considering the ASP and margins of Apple, it's not even a close contest. Note that Huawei publishes its revenue for its "consumer" portion, which is about 55% of its overall revenue, and given that, Apple does in fact have a higher level of R&D devoted to it's consumer products, than Huawei does, and it's actually quite apparent that Apple is applying that R&D to new products, not just its "mature" iPhone product line. Huawei's feature set for it's flagships is certainly an impressive spec list, but given that Apple sells more of it's highest end iPhone by far that Huawei sells its Mate and P lines, again it really isn't a contest.

R&D efforts know no boundaries.

If the Mate 30 Pro managed to cram 21 antennas into it, the R&D behind it definitely came from a different part of the company, as did the graphene breakthroughs in the battery. There is a lot of crossover.

Take a look at the Atlas 900:

https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/huawei-launches-atlas-900-worlds-fastest-ai-training-cluster-109150

That is as far removed from the consumer division as you could imagine but there is Ascend silicon in earbuds!

Apple competes in exactly the same market as Android and runs exactly the same risks.

Given that Apple's share of the handset market is stable ir tending to fall I am not seeing the net transfer to iOS that you speak of and AFAIK Apple isn't exactly precise when it details iOS user base.

As for moving on price "if they want to", why on earth would they want to cheapen the product line?

You are claiming 38% margins, net Android to iOS transfer, 3 times the ASP of Huawei...

Seems hunky dory in your world where you skip around the flat sales, profit warning, falling behind on technology etc...

No. It isn't if Apple "wants to".

It is Apple "has" to.

Seems hunky dory in your world where you skip around the flat sales, profit warning, falling behind on technology etc...

I've acknowledged that flat sales of from 180 million to 200 million iPhones for at least 4 or 5 quarters, and since the profit warning was some 9 months ago, I'm not seeing its relevance today. As for falling behind on technology, how do you explain Apple's revenue at almost double Huawei's and just over 4 times the margins?

One would have to assume that Huawei is buying marketshare, in 5G and in smartphones, which there is evidence of (and I have posted it before),

<snip>

Don't let Apple's overall business performance cloud your view. We are focusing on iPhone here.

Huawei has always been competitive on price without being afraid to put $2,000 dollar phones on the market for that small segment that wants them. Every single one of those special lines has sold out (so, obviously meeting expectations). That's why we got another PD Mate RS at 2,000€ last week.

They have done far, far more than Apple with far less revenue but obviously billion+ dollars a year seems to get them by.

<snip>

What?

Sure. Let's go ahead and look at Wal*Mart's overall business as a function of cereal sales. Related, let's go ahead and call Apple doomed because iPod Touch sales aren't what they were previously.

When we talk about Apple (the iPhone Apple). The single product that put Apple where it is today and all those millions in the bank, we are talking one product. We aren't talking iPods, Macs, or even Air Pods or even services. iPhones (and smartphones in general) are convergence devices so iPod functionality and computer functionality etc was superceded and incorporated into one kind of device.

It is important to set that perspective straight from time to time. If Mac sales tanked while iPhones raged, no one would really care - on the markets. If Mac sales hit a 30% YoY boom for one quarter but iPhones tanked, it would be panic stations and all hands meetings at Cupertino. That last point has already happened.

When more than half your business rides on the success of one very limited product (it used to be two models per year - now it's three) obviously there is a lot of relevance attached to it.

My comments historically have been on Apple's iPhone business and from time to time I point it out because some people like to mix it up and alter the context or forget it completely.

This becomes even more important to take into account as Apple weans itself off iPhone dependence and iPhone reduces its relevance. It has only been over the last few years that services have come into their own as an important revenue driver. As have Air Pods etc. Now we have a completely new services arm based on subscription models and aren't necessarily going to be tethered to iPhone going forward. Tim Cook made a small reference to this in a recent earnings call.

The more legs you have on your revenue table the better.

If we take Apple - as a whole - into consideration and look at where things are going, there are far more things to take into account but for the time being at least, iPhone is still that leg which still means the most and in all probability will bounce back to represent over 50% of Apple's total revenue again over the Christmas quarter.

We'll see how that plays out over time  but I've said for a few years now that I think Apple is working to a 'post iPhone' roadmap.

Cereal sales at Walmart aren't comparable to iPhone sales at Apple for this reason.

Your goalpost moving is beyond absurd. Apple has multiple product lines that by themselves each generate more revenue than other entire leading Silicon Valley companies. This is fact and has been explained to you many times. Yet you still pretend they’re in a precarious position because iPhone. 

You try so, so hard. I hope whatever you get in return is worth the effort you put into this charade. 

HuhWhat???? said:

I made an account just to say EVERY DED headline I see here is utterly ridiculous. I always get a good laugh out of them, I could never waste time on the articles though. That's all, I won't comment ever again. 

eightzero said:

$5 is tenable. But note the weasel words "starting at." Bet the 4K sub is more. Way more.