lorin schultz

polymnia said:

Hurling shade? The shadiest thing I did was point out an alternative resolution to your own for the problem you’ve identified. If I’ve done something else hurtful, could you be more specific about how I’ve disrespected you?

I'm not hurt, I just didn't think you were actually interested in my position, since you seemed to skip over most of what I already wrote.

You implied I was being disingenuous in my position by saying I "conveniently omit" wireless alternatives. You called me a "complainer" and said I'm "stuck in the past." You dismissed my observations as invalid on the basis of only one of the three points I raised. You framed my remarks as being oblivious to the obvious alternatives, even though I specifically addressed them in the last paragraph.

polymnia said:

Anyway, I’m sorry, please accept my apology.

Perhaps I read a tone you didn't intend. No hard feelings?

lowededwookie said:

I disagree for the simple reason that the pen is mightier than the sword/mouse. Ever tried drawing with a mouse? Ever tried to be precise with a trackpad? All they are good for is moving stuff around but you can do that with a touchscreen and get immense precision using the Pencil.

I used to work in a setting that provided mouse, keyboard, touch screen, and physical control surface as methods of interacting with various components of the system. While some input methods only worked for certain tasks, there was a lot of overlap so operators often had a choice. It didn't long to establish that certain tasks were best accomplished with the touch screen, others were better handled by the mouse, etc. I suspect that's what we're discovering with the iPad, too.

I think the Pencil is an excellent idea and appreciate its value. I just think there's benefit to be realized from a more traditional pointing device as well (not "instead"), particularly when one is typing, using an external monitor, or the iPad is positioned vertically. 

lowededwookie said:

Just because you’ve done something all the time doesn’t make it the best option. In fact if you’re serious about video editing and precision on a Mac you’d use a jog control not a mouse

Agreed, and I do. I have a keyboard in the middle, mouse to one side, and jog/shuttle on the other. Each is best at some aspect of interacting with the software, and each really sucks for certain operations. None is ideal on its own. It's the combination of various methods that makes it most efficient.

The Pencil adds a form of control that's better than the others in some respects but worse in others. It's not the best choice for every kind of input on its own, but making it a nutritious part of this complete breakfast improves productivity.

lowededwookie said:

While my complaint is largely semantic I completely disagree that it’s the lack of the mouse that means that the iPad Pro can’t be used as a desktop/laptop replacement. If that’s so then why the hell is Adobe bringing over full Photoshop? Why is AutoDesk bringing over the full AutoCAD engine? The issue is not lack of mouse support but lack of software support and we are starting to see this changing now thanks to the original iPad Pro.

The whole "Is it or sin't it?" argument depends as much on preferred working methods as device capability. I continue to use a laptop for many tasks that could very easily be handled by an iPad. I dislike typing on the virtual keyboard and like to have the display propped up in front of me instead of flat on the desk. Neither is better or worse than the other, it's simply a matter of what I like.

There's also the question of what one is doing with it. Some tasks, like the site assessment examples cited elsewhere, are obviously much better handled by an iPad than a laptop. Others, like post-production, may impose requirements that make a more traditional computer a better choice. Different tools for different jobs. There's overlap in their capabilities, but each is going to excel at certain things while sucking at others.

lowededwookie said:

The iPad Pro combined with the Apple Pencil is a very precise device and those decrying its abilities just don’t understand how computing is going to evolve because they’re stuck in the past.

I agree with you about the Pencil but not your conclusion about motives. It's not so much being stuck in the past as preferring not to automatically discard useful tools just because something new comes along unless the new thing covers what the old thing did, or at least provides a viable alternative. So far the Pencil augments other input methods very, very well, but doesn't yet replace them.

For me, the Pencil isn't a good alternative to a mouse, even though it offers greater precision and more intuitive selection capability. I realize that doesn't seem to make sense, but it comes back to workflow.

In my line of work, speed is essential. Keyboard shortcuts are much faster than menu operations with a pointer, so that's where my hands are most of the time. Of course, I need to navigate the project and make selections, but it's faster and easier to slide my hand a few inches to slide-drag-click than it would be to pick up a pencil and move my hand to the screen. Either method yields the same result, and neither is much better or worse than the other by itself, but one fits into the workflow better than the other. I certainly could use the Pencil instead of a mouse, but it would be a little slower and quite a bit less comfortable.

canukstorm said:

macplusplus said:

mac_128 said:

macplusplus said:

mac_128 said:

crosslad said:

Here’s how to solve your problems:

1 External Drive support - use a WiFi Drive
2 Lack if mouse - use the Apple Pencil
3 Headphone jack - use a dongle or a device with a usb c jack. 3.5 headphone jacks have gone from mobile devices
4 Overpowered - come on, rendering a video in less than half the time is a problem. It will also future proof the iPad. 
5 Storage - see 1

1. I agree. Or the cloud.
2. Pencil is the worst possible mouse substitute I can imagine, as not only must one move their hands from the keyboard to touch the screen, but then they have to pick up and put down a pencil, with no support to stabilize it in mid-air.

But the mouse causes Carpal Tunnel Syndrome. I haven’t heard of anyone getting carpal tunnel syndrome caused by the pencil usage.

Pencil is the worst possible mouse substitute when playing Call of Duty. But on that, the mouse is not the best input device neither, there are game controllers for that. Yet I don't see people discussing "mouse or game controller" in gaming forums, why are we into such a pointless discussion here?

Pencil can do everything that a mouse can do and even more. The mouse is a mechanical pointing device of the 1960s. Pencil is a 21st century technology and there is state of the art engineering in it, encompassing both the display and the device. Pencil is not a stylus, a stylus is a stick compared to Pencil. What the mouse interface provided and the touch interface couldn't provide was the precision data selection. With Pencil, precision data selection is possible even better than the best mouse or trackpad can provide.

You’re taking my response out of context of the article to which we’ve all been replying. The Pencil is great for fine tuned selection and editing directly on an iPad laying flat on a table. It’s terrible for an iPad propped up on a keyboard stand. It’s terrible when using an external monitor. Heck, even if the iPad is laying flat and the user is merely typing on it, having to take their hands of the keyboard to pick up and put down a Pencil is still worse than using a mouse. And forget about using it while sitting on a couch as one might with a MacBook. That’s where a trackpad rules the day. Apple has added a virtual trackpad, but that’s far from ideal, even on native Apple apps, but still better than the Pencil which you’d have to pull off its magnetic docking perch, holding the iPad with one hand, and then reattaching it, before continuing with the typing. So in general I’d say a mouse or trackpad would still be better for most everything in daily computer use, aside from drawing, editing, and taking notes.

macplusplus said:

lorin schultz said:

lowededwookie said:
[...] I can edit video on an iPhone just as easily as using iMovie on the Mac

"Easily," yes. Accurately, no. Fine adjustments are difficult using a finger on a small screen.

There is Pencil for that.

lorin schultz said:

Besides, even putting all that aside, the iPad Pro's marketing includes using the keyboard stand and an external monitor. Both make touch a less effective control method than using a mouse.

If you'd watched the Keynote you'd know or you already know that the reason to attach a 4K monitor to iPad Pro is to follow iMovie edits in real time 4K, since the iPad's own display is not 4K. The actual iPad page on Apple's site mentions only "USB-C for ... external display" and says nothing about that external display. There is no point to present it as the main "computer display" of iPad.

So the user has to continually shift his eyes back and forth from the iPad to the screen, as well as take their hands off the keyboard, to lift a Pencil to the vertical screen, and hover it unsupported in midair to make detailed selections, then put the pencil down to continue using the keyboard; all the while shifting their eyes from the iPad to the 4K monitor and back as they make the fine adjustments and make sure the Pencil is where they think it’s supposed to be on the iPad? Doesn’t really sound more efficient than a mouse ... in fact it sounds a lot worse, even if Apple only intended the external monitor to be used solely as a 4K reference display and not a workspace.

All your long anecdotal narration is irrelevant. The iPad is not for desktop usage. If you don't want to leave your comfy desk get a laptop. Neither the folding keyboard nor the 4K display are main components of iPad Pro. The monitor is there only to watch 4K iMovie edits. Besides that there is absolutely no point in buying a 4K monitor for the iPad Pro.

OK if your point is to get a trackpad on that foldable keyboard, then this is not possible: 1) How will you power it? 2) What if people with disabilities or long fingernails want to attach a mouse to that keyboard? How will you power both? 3) There is no pointer in iOS. Your request requires the whole UI to be re-written for the mouse interface. That won't happen, buy a Surface it has both touch and mouse. I am off that mouse discussion.

"3) There is no pointer in iOS."

Not exactly true.  tvOS, which is based off of iOS, does use a pointer UI.  Nothing stopping Apple from adopting that on the iPad Pro

I don't understand what you mean. I'm looking at my Apple TV right now and I don't see a pointer. I have only a "sequential selection" system that allows me to move up/down/left/right between adjacent targets. I can't jump from any particular point to any other random point.

crosslad said:

lorin schultz said:

crosslad said:

Here’s how to solve your problems:

1 External Drive support - use a WiFi Drive
2 Lack if mouse - use the Apple Pencil
3 Headphone jack - use a dongle or a device with a usb c jack. 3.5 headphone jacks have gone from mobile devices
4 Overpowered - come on, rendering a video in less than half the time is a problem. It will also future proof the iPad. 
5 Storage - see 1

1. That slows my files transfers to the speed of the WiFi connection. And I get another device that needs to be kept charged. Yay.

2. Use a pencil while the iPad is positioned semi-vertically on the keyboard, and/or while viewing the image on that external monitor the iPad now supports? I wish you luck making it work in either of those obvious scenarios.

3. If I use a dongle to feed the sound system, where will I connect the cable for the projector?

1. I use a Verbatim Media Share device connected to an old Iomega hard drive for backing up from my phone works fine imo. There are also suitable flash drives if you need faster transfer, I have a Greendisk lightening flash drive for my phone, again this works very well.
2 Grapic designers use a Wacom Tablet instead of a mouse, the iPad makes a great Wacom replacement. 
3 USB C hubs are easily available and inexpensive. Not sure how many USB C ports you can chain together but imagine it will be more than you will ever need. 

1. Glad your system is working out well for you. Neither of the solutions you mention address the fundamental issue, but I appreciate the pointers anyway.

2. Read my comment again. Using a stick as a pointer isn't the problem. Using a stick as a pointer on a VERTICAL SURFACE is a problem. Graphic designers are not standing their Wacom tablets on their edges. Neither are they trying to work with no cursor on their monitor.

3. Good point.

polymnia said:

lorin schultz said:

ascii said:

I think we should focus on getting rid of analog ports (the headphone jack being the only remaining one) and going all digital.

I'm curious why you want the headphone jack removed? What advantage do you perceive from that?

Headphones are analog. They have transducers in them. At some point before the speaker, the signal MUST be converted to analog and amplified.

The phone or tablet already has a digital-to-analog converter and an amplifier. Removing the headphone jack doesn't mean they can be removed too, because they're required for the speaker(s) on the device itself. By removing the headphone jack, those parts of the chain have to be duplicated in the form of a dongle hanging inelegantly on the outside of the device, instead of just using the parts that already exist, tucked neatly inside the device.

On devices with only one "digital" port like a phone or tablet, removing the headphone jack means that any wired audio connection ties up the port so it can't be used for anything else. That complicates some really common uses cases, like using the device in the car. With only a Lightning port on the phone I can either charge or listen to it, not both, unless I add a dongle that does nothing more than duplicate parts that are already inside the phone!

None of this is insurmountable. Adapters and wireless alternatives exist. I just don't see how they offer any ADVANTAGE. They add cost, require charging additional devices, and are less convenient. How is this BETTER than just leaving the headphone jack where it is/was?

Duplication is what bugs you? What about duplicate holes in my iPhone? One (lightning) that does pretty much everything and the other (headphone jack) that does only one thing.

In your explanation of the supposed requirement for dongles to replace the functionality of the missing headphone jack you conveniently omit the fact that many of us have made the jump to airPods or other Bluetooth headphones. I have. Why should I have to have an extra hole cut into the bottom of my phone because you are stuck in the past with a dwindling band of other complainers? I say, bring on the future. I’m fact, let’s also lose the Lightning jack as soon as it’s feasible. I’d love the iPhone to be stripped down to the simplest, most waterproof & structurally uncompromised form possible. 

Leave the extra ports for ipads & macs!

I have answers to some of your questions, but it seems you're not really interested in having a respectful discussion so much as wanting to demonstrate your advanced state of tech evolution by hurling shade.

Since the only one who gets anything out of that is you, I'm going to politely excuse myself. You carry on. Just remember to put the Kleenex box back where you found it when you're done.