GeorgeBMac

StrangeDays said:

GeorgeBMac said:

Rayz2016 said:

mwhite said:

avon b7 said:

For me, everything starts with price. It doesn't matter how great something is if I can't afford it. One of the most absurd comments I've heard on the subject is to save for longer. Sigh.

Next problem is what you get for the price. Again, it doesn't matter how great something is if you don't really need it. Some people love retina screens but I could get by easily with non retina. Same for soldered RAM/SSD. Once again, I could get by without the fastest options if flexibility were factored into the offer. The option to upgrade down the line is something I have always taken advantage of.

Thinness? This is probably a Jony Ive obsession which I can easily live without if accessibility and longer battery life are the end result. The previous line was already thin. Having the battery glued to the upper casing is something I could also do without and after repeated use in different stores I still dislike the keyboard.

Touch Bar and Touch ID? For the added cost that comes with it, I could easily do without both. At the end of the day they are convenience items. Nothing more.

So what we have is an expensive (no other word for it) base system that could easily cost far less and which you have to BTO at current Apple pricing pushing the price even higher.

I haven't bought a laptop for a few years now and my current upgraded Macs have new blood in them. I will not be buying into this line until prices come down and/or ugradeability is looked at with a new corporate perspective.

People will say something stupid like 'Apple doesn't cater to me'. That is irrelevant. Apple caters to sales. It seems clear that new MBP sales didn't fly off the charts. There was pent up demand and that was quenched. We will see what Apple does in the future if sales flatten out. After many people claiming the MBA was eol, that wasn't the case. Just as it wasn't the case that anything not USB-C was 'legacy'. 

Apple put itself into a pigeon hole. If people are willing to buy into the sealed up, glued in, BTO at purchase, short warranty, expensive laptop, that's their decision. Mine is to pass.

The question is how many others pass or not. 

Good that you pass you would not be happy with a Mac so go on to a different computer that won't last as long as a Apple computer. With Apple you get your money's worth.

You could have stopped reading when he mentioned price as his main driver, above quality. What you're dealing with here is someone who is outside Apple's demographic and so would be much happier buying a  Dell machine. For some people, a superficial short-term saving is more important than longevity and build quality. 

I've had one for a few months and I've noticed cracks around the keyboard housing. But it was much cheaper than the MacBook Pro that'll be replacing it as my main development machine. 

Longevity?
Being non-upgradable because its all glued & soldered together, MBPs are very short on longevity.  Actually, they fall more into the "planned obsolescence" realm...

While they offer some great features -- particularly power combined with portability, longevity is a weak point rather than a strong point.

Nonsense. You're pretending as if if non user upgradble means not serviceable. It doesn't. You'll be able to get it repaired for years to come if need be. 

Apple gear has the longest useful lifespan with the highest resale values. That's the opposite of planned obsolescence inspires you theory nonsense. 

jkichline said:

Wow, there’s a lot of armchair engineers in here!

”There’s absolutely no reason Apple couldn’t make the battery, SSD, or RAM user replaceable except greed.”

Oh really, Einstein?

Have you looked into the specs for how these high-speed components integrate? Because there are no other options. Have you looked into the physical forces exerted on a laptop that would necessitate repair due to socket failure? How about the electrical components that create heat and consume more power? What about thermal design inside of the space?

Oh and if the battery wasn’t the entire insides of the laptop, it would have like 2-3 hours of battery life. Battery technology has improved to a point where the battery will continue to operate in the machines foreseeable useful lifecycle. There’s no need to make it replaceable. None. Just get an external battery pack with USB-C and charge up.

The fact is that Apple employees thousands of people who figure out what the market wants and designs to those specs. You’re a tiny fraction of the market. They’ve determined (as well as other companies) that people want a laptop that is portable (surprise) and gets certain levels of battery life. They want a great screen.

Now many of the gripes I’ve seen have more to do with modern PC architecture (Intel) than Apple. No you can’t have socketed RAM in these newer designs and achieve the same power/performance ratio. Oh and USB-C? That’s a standard and it’s a wonderful port. You should get onboard. Yes I have one single and use one every now and then, but the future of a single interconnect that is almost unlimited in its power and speed is worth the temporary inconvenience.

Rayz2016 said:

mwhite said:

avon b7 said:

For me, everything starts with price. It doesn't matter how great something is if I can't afford it. One of the most absurd comments I've heard on the subject is to save for longer. Sigh.

Next problem is what you get for the price. Again, it doesn't matter how great something is if you don't really need it. Some people love retina screens but I could get by easily with non retina. Same for soldered RAM/SSD. Once again, I could get by without the fastest options if flexibility were factored into the offer. The option to upgrade down the line is something I have always taken advantage of.

Thinness? This is probably a Jony Ive obsession which I can easily live without if accessibility and longer battery life are the end result. The previous line was already thin. Having the battery glued to the upper casing is something I could also do without and after repeated use in different stores I still dislike the keyboard.

Touch Bar and Touch ID? For the added cost that comes with it, I could easily do without both. At the end of the day they are convenience items. Nothing more.

So what we have is an expensive (no other word for it) base system that could easily cost far less and which you have to BTO at current Apple pricing pushing the price even higher.

I haven't bought a laptop for a few years now and my current upgraded Macs have new blood in them. I will not be buying into this line until prices come down and/or ugradeability is looked at with a new corporate perspective.

People will say something stupid like 'Apple doesn't cater to me'. That is irrelevant. Apple caters to sales. It seems clear that new MBP sales didn't fly off the charts. There was pent up demand and that was quenched. We will see what Apple does in the future if sales flatten out. After many people claiming the MBA was eol, that wasn't the case. Just as it wasn't the case that anything not USB-C was 'legacy'. 

Apple put itself into a pigeon hole. If people are willing to buy into the sealed up, glued in, BTO at purchase, short warranty, expensive laptop, that's their decision. Mine is to pass.

The question is how many others pass or not. 

Good that you pass you would not be happy with a Mac so go on to a different computer that won't last as long as a Apple computer. With Apple you get your money's worth.

You could have stopped reading when he mentioned price as his main driver, above quality. What you're dealing with here is someone who is outside Apple's demographic and so would be much happier buying a  Dell machine. For some people, a superficial short-term saving is more important than longevity and build quality. 

I've had one for a few months and I've noticed cracks around the keyboard housing. But it was much cheaper than the MacBook Pro that'll be replacing it as my main development machine. 

zoetmb said:

mwhite said:

avon b7 said:

For me, everything starts with price. It doesn't matter how great something is if I can't afford it. One of the most absurd comments I've heard on the subject is to save for longer. Sigh.

Next problem is what you get for the price. Again, it doesn't matter how great something is if you don't really need it. Some people love retina screens but I could get by easily with non retina. Same for soldered RAM/SSD. Once again, I could get by without the fastest options if flexibility were factored into the offer. The option to upgrade down the line is something I have always taken advantage of.

Thinness? This is probably a Jony Ive obsession which I can easily live without if accessibility and longer battery life are the end result. The previous line was already thin. Having the battery glued to the upper casing is something I could also do without and after repeated use in different stores I still dislike the keyboard.

Touch Bar and Touch ID? For the added cost that comes with it, I could easily do without both. At the end of the day they are convenience items. Nothing more.

So what we have is an expensive (no other word for it) base system that could easily cost far less and which you have to BTO at current Apple pricing pushing the price even higher.

I haven't bought a laptop for a few years now and my current upgraded Macs have new blood in them. I will not be buying into this line until prices come down and/or ugradeability is looked at with a new corporate perspective.

People will say something stupid like 'Apple doesn't cater to me'. That is irrelevant. Apple caters to sales. It seems clear that new MBP sales didn't fly off the charts. There was pent up demand and that was quenched. We will see what Apple does in the future if sales flatten out. After many people claiming the MBA was eol, that wasn't the case. Just as it wasn't the case that anything not USB-C was 'legacy'. 

Apple put itself into a pigeon hole. If people are willing to buy into the sealed up, glued in, BTO at purchase, short warranty, expensive laptop, that's their decision. Mine is to pass.

The question is how many others pass or not. 

Good that you pass you would not be happy with a Mac so go on to a different computer that won't last as long as a Apple computer. With Apple you get your money's worth.

My previous MBP lasted 8 years and was far less expensive, even adjusting for inflation, so I'm not sure we are getting our money's worth (I did buy the late 2016 MBP, but I was very pissed at the high price.)   There is no question that Apple is ripping us off on the SSD storage costs and I'm with those who think these machines should have removable storage, memory and battery.    There is absolutely no reason why Apple couldn't have used standard SSD modules that were on a plug.  None.  (Except greed).    Is anyone really going to maintain that the best way to build a machine is with a lot of glue?  Really?  

Without being able to upgrade memory and storage and change the battery, the machines don't "last as long" in terms of useful life and it belies Apple's commitment to being green, since the machines will wind up in the trash faster.    (I went to a recycling fair recently and it was amazing what people were recycling:  hundreds of computers (maybe thousands), both Macs and PCs).   The only reason my previous late-2008 MBP lasted so long is because I was able to upgrade memory and storage and replace the battery.    If that makes the machine a little thicker, so be it.   Apple's (Ive's?) obsession with thinness and no lines in the case as opposed to all else borders on mental illness, IMO.  It's like their obsession with the design of the iPhone which few people ever actually see because almost everyone keeps theirs in a case so it survives a fall.  

Other than that, it is a very nice machine, but the touch pad is too large as part of my palms rest on it and sends the cursor to places I don't intend for it to go.  This has radically slowed down my typing and I don't sense that the larger pad has any advantages.    The touch pad drives me nuts and it's apparent to me that Apple did not test this larger touchpad with real users.   It is not a natural position to rest the palms outside of the touchpad.  Maybe Apple thinks that people type with their hands in the air without resting their palms.   I, for one, don't.   The TouchBar is almost worthless because your eyes don't naturally look there.  It might have been better if it had been located right at the top edge.   

The switch to USB-C didn't bother me, except for losing magsafe.   Why people get so upset adding a dongle or adapter to a cable is strange to me.  Just make believe it was always part of the cable.   You can get adapters for as little as $4.    People defend Apple when there are complaints that an equipped machine is $3K, but then they complain about a $4 adapter or $10 cable?    Having said that, I do have one problem:   I have a USB cable that goes to a USB speaker system.   If I plug it in with the dongle attached, the system does not automatically switch to the speaker system.   If I pull the USB-C out and plug it back in to the Mac, it still doesn't switch.   But if I detach the USB-A from the adapter dongle and plug it back in to the adapter, it does switch.   It's a minor annoyance, but still an annoyance as it requires two actions instead of one.