JWSC said:

tmay said:

JWSC said:

GeorgeBMac said:

tmay said:

GeorgeBMac said:

22july2013 said:

tmay said:

... Stupid.   Very, very stupid.

The post above is chock full of misinformation.
Given the many times that I have countered George since he has been here, I'll spare you the details. Do your own searches on the details.

It's actually entertaining whenever GBM speaks. I always wonder how he's going to defend brutal dictatorships, and he always manages. I would like to have seen him defend the dictatorships back around 1940.

I wish websites like this would have a way we could block certain users from being seen by us. I know a few people would block me, but I think GBM would take top spot.

I don;t defend "brutal dictatorships".

But I do object to instigating totally unnecessary wars.

All we have to do is guarantee that NATO will not threaten Russia by moving into (another of) its neighbor(s).

But, we instead favor war.   Economic war (at least for us).  But still, war.

Who is going to pay for this war of ours?   As usual, it will be us.

But, I am sorry if the truth does not support your war mongering imperialism.  Perhaps it is YOU that should be blocked?

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/china/2022-02-21/chinas-ukraine-crisis?utm_campaign=tw_daily_soc&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter_posts

The Ukraine crisis is primarily a standoff between Russia and the West, but off to the side, another player stands awkwardly: China. Beijing has tried to walk a fine line on Ukraine. On one hand, it has taken Russia’s side, blaming NATO expansion for causing the crisis and alleging that U.S. predictions of an imminent invasion are aggravating it. On the other hand, especially as the risk of military conflict has grown, it has called for diplomacy over war. 

If Beijing had its way, it would maintain strong ties with Moscow, safeguard its trade relationship with Ukraine, keep the EU in its economic orbit, and avoid the spillover from U.S. and EU sanctions on Moscow—all while preventing relations with the United States from significantly deteriorating. Securing any one of these objectives may well be possible. Achieving all of them is not. 

If Russia invades Ukraine, Beijing could throw Moscow a lifeline: economic relief to alleviate the effect of U.S. sanctions. But doing so would damage Chinese relations with Europe, invite severe repercussions from Washington, and drive traditionally nonaligned countries such as India further into the arms of the West. If Beijing snubs Moscow, by contrast, it may weaken its closest strategic partnership at a time when, given deteriorating security in Asia, it is most in need of outside help.

China should throw Russia under the bus, because Russia is already a failed state, and it wouldn't take much for it to collapse yet again. Might as well give it a push.

We are pushing Russia and China (and a few others) together. 

We are falling back on our last bullet:  financial sanctions  -- and we not using it wisely.   Soon they will have a work-around (actually, they probably already do).

We should have settled this while we could.

As all of you know, I rarely agree with George. But in the above statement he is absolutely right.  The bombastic antagonism we have we heard coming from the US and UK has only exacerbated an already tense situation. We are pushing our adversaries together while implementing ineffective policies.

It was not inevitable that Putin would choose to invade. But from a political standpoint we pushed him into it. We armed and provided intelligence to an adversarial government along their border. We advocated that the Ukraine stand it’s ground and attempt to regain control of the Russian language dominated regions. In doing so we provided political ammunition to Putin to make the case to the Russian people that Ukraine was a threat. It’s a spectacular fail.

And why should we care about a spat between two kleptocratic regimes that could care less about their own citizens.  All we have done is help to fan the flames of war, sans evidence (you just have to trust us - right), which will end up getting those caught in the middle killed. If two decades of intelligence failure isn’t enough to teach us to beware of government spokespeople, I don’t know what is.

None of what you stated is accurate, but please, keep digging.

This whole "the West made Putin do it" meme is complete and utter bullshit.

Guess what Russia was doing up until yesterday in those "Russian Language Dominated regions"? Did you guess false flag operations that were so poorly thought out, that the video's that were posted became the evidence of the false flag operations. 

https://www.jpost.com/international/article-698132

Pro-Russia forces commit 'false flag' op, shelling from civilian areas - Ukraine MoD

"In the absence of any aggressive action by Ukrainian defenders, the invaders themselves blow up infrastructure facilities in the occupied territories and carry out chaotic shelling of settlements."

Oh yeah, the West made them do that...

Perhaps you are aware that Russia, the Ukraine, the US and the UK are waging vociferous disinformation campaigns through their various media mouthpieces.  At this point I trust the NYT or WaPo no more than TASS.  They all repeat what their government contacts tell them without doing any independent investigation.
...

tmay said:

JWSC said:

GeorgeBMac said:

tmay said:

GeorgeBMac said:

22july2013 said:

tmay said:

... Stupid.   Very, very stupid.

The post above is chock full of misinformation.
Given the many times that I have countered George since he has been here, I'll spare you the details. Do your own searches on the details.

It's actually entertaining whenever GBM speaks. I always wonder how he's going to defend brutal dictatorships, and he always manages. I would like to have seen him defend the dictatorships back around 1940.

I wish websites like this would have a way we could block certain users from being seen by us. I know a few people would block me, but I think GBM would take top spot.

I don;t defend "brutal dictatorships".

But I do object to instigating totally unnecessary wars.

All we have to do is guarantee that NATO will not threaten Russia by moving into (another of) its neighbor(s).

But, we instead favor war.   Economic war (at least for us).  But still, war.

Who is going to pay for this war of ours?   As usual, it will be us.

But, I am sorry if the truth does not support your war mongering imperialism.  Perhaps it is YOU that should be blocked?

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/china/2022-02-21/chinas-ukraine-crisis?utm_campaign=tw_daily_soc&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter_posts

The Ukraine crisis is primarily a standoff between Russia and the West, but off to the side, another player stands awkwardly: China. Beijing has tried to walk a fine line on Ukraine. On one hand, it has taken Russia’s side, blaming NATO expansion for causing the crisis and alleging that U.S. predictions of an imminent invasion are aggravating it. On the other hand, especially as the risk of military conflict has grown, it has called for diplomacy over war. 

If Beijing had its way, it would maintain strong ties with Moscow, safeguard its trade relationship with Ukraine, keep the EU in its economic orbit, and avoid the spillover from U.S. and EU sanctions on Moscow—all while preventing relations with the United States from significantly deteriorating. Securing any one of these objectives may well be possible. Achieving all of them is not. 

If Russia invades Ukraine, Beijing could throw Moscow a lifeline: economic relief to alleviate the effect of U.S. sanctions. But doing so would damage Chinese relations with Europe, invite severe repercussions from Washington, and drive traditionally nonaligned countries such as India further into the arms of the West. If Beijing snubs Moscow, by contrast, it may weaken its closest strategic partnership at a time when, given deteriorating security in Asia, it is most in need of outside help.

China should throw Russia under the bus, because Russia is already a failed state, and it wouldn't take much for it to collapse yet again. Might as well give it a push.

We are pushing Russia and China (and a few others) together. 

We are falling back on our last bullet:  financial sanctions  -- and we not using it wisely.   Soon they will have a work-around (actually, they probably already do).

We should have settled this while we could.

As all of you know, I rarely agree with George. But in the above statement he is absolutely right.  The bombastic antagonism we have we heard coming from the US and UK has only exacerbated an already tense situation. We are pushing our adversaries together while implementing ineffective policies.

It was not inevitable that Putin would choose to invade. But from a political standpoint we pushed him into it. We armed and provided intelligence to an adversarial government along their border. We advocated that the Ukraine stand it’s ground and attempt to regain control of the Russian language dominated regions. In doing so we provided political ammunition to Putin to make the case to the Russian people that Ukraine was a threat. It’s a spectacular fail.

And why should we care about a spat between two kleptocratic regimes that could care less about their own citizens.  All we have done is help to fan the flames of war, sans evidence (you just have to trust us - right), which will end up getting those caught in the middle killed. If two decades of intelligence failure isn’t enough to teach us to beware of government spokespeople, I don’t know what is.

None of what you stated is accurate, but please, keep digging.

This whole "the West made Putin do it" meme is complete and utter bullshit.

Guess what Russia was doing up until yesterday in those "Russian Language Dominated regions"? Did you guess false flag operations that were so poorly thought out, that the video's that were posted became the evidence of the false flag operations. 

https://www.jpost.com/international/article-698132

Pro-Russia forces commit 'false flag' op, shelling from civilian areas - Ukraine MoD

"In the absence of any aggressive action by Ukrainian defenders, the invaders themselves blow up infrastructure facilities in the occupied territories and carry out chaotic shelling of settlements."

Oh yeah, the West made them do that...

tmay said:

GeorgeBMac said:

tmay said:

GeorgeBMac said:

tmay said:

GeorgeBMac said:

22july2013 said:

tmay said:

... Stupid.   Very, very stupid.

The post above is chock full of misinformation.
Given the many times that I have countered George since he has been here, I'll spare you the details. Do your own searches on the details.

It's actually entertaining whenever GBM speaks. I always wonder how he's going to defend brutal dictatorships, and he always manages. I would like to have seen him defend the dictatorships back around 1940.

I wish websites like this would have a way we could block certain users from being seen by us. I know a few people would block me, but I think GBM would take top spot.

I don;t defend "brutal dictatorships".

But I do object to instigating totally unnecessary wars.

All we have to do is guarantee that NATO will not threaten Russia by moving into (another of) its neighbor(s).

But, we instead favor war.   Economic war (at least for us).  But still, war.

Who is going to pay for this war of ours?   As usual, it will be us.

But, I am sorry if the truth does not support your war mongering imperialism.  Perhaps it is YOU that should be blocked?

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/china/2022-02-21/chinas-ukraine-crisis?utm_campaign=tw_daily_soc&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter_posts

The Ukraine crisis is primarily a standoff between Russia and the West, but off to the side, another player stands awkwardly: China. Beijing has tried to walk a fine line on Ukraine. On one hand, it has taken Russia’s side, blaming NATO expansion for causing the crisis and alleging that U.S. predictions of an imminent invasion are aggravating it. On the other hand, especially as the risk of military conflict has grown, it has called for diplomacy over war. 

If Beijing had its way, it would maintain strong ties with Moscow, safeguard its trade relationship with Ukraine, keep the EU in its economic orbit, and avoid the spillover from U.S. and EU sanctions on Moscow—all while preventing relations with the United States from significantly deteriorating. Securing any one of these objectives may well be possible. Achieving all of them is not. 

If Russia invades Ukraine, Beijing could throw Moscow a lifeline: economic relief to alleviate the effect of U.S. sanctions. But doing so would damage Chinese relations with Europe, invite severe repercussions from Washington, and drive traditionally nonaligned countries such as India further into the arms of the West. If Beijing snubs Moscow, by contrast, it may weaken its closest strategic partnership at a time when, given deteriorating security in Asia, it is most in need of outside help.

China should throw Russia under the bus, because Russia is already a failed state, and it wouldn't take much for it to collapse yet again. Might as well give it a push.

We are pushing Russia and China (and a few others) together. 

We are falling back on our last bullet:  financial sanctions  -- and we not using it wisely.   Soon they will have a work-around (actually, they probably already do).

We should have settled this while we could.

Well, evidently it is being settled, as we speak, and I would love Russia and China being forced together, with the end result that the U.S., EU, NATO, and our Indo-Pacific Allies are all on the same page in containing both countries.

How cool would that be!

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2022/2/22/2081709/-Russia-s-economy-can-t-handle-a-war-but-Putin-can-t-handle-the-Russian-economy

It won't be "both countries".   It will be a world wide cold war.   Again.

Anybody who wants that is a fool.

The first one was created and fed by Russia trying to propagate communism around the world.

They openly admitted that.

This one will be created and fed by the U.S. trying to propagate democracy around the world.

We openly admit that.

It doesn't matter who does it:  Either way the world suffers.

Putin started this latest conflict, and the West will have to finish it.

China can step out of the way, throw Russia under the bus, or double down on its authoritarian alliance. Either way, Putin is dealing with a hell of a large body of countries that are economically much more powerful than Russia, and are now working together against Putin.

tmay said:

GeorgeBMac said:

tmay said:

GeorgeBMac said:

22july2013 said:

tmay said:

... Stupid.   Very, very stupid.

The post above is chock full of misinformation.
Given the many times that I have countered George since he has been here, I'll spare you the details. Do your own searches on the details.

It's actually entertaining whenever GBM speaks. I always wonder how he's going to defend brutal dictatorships, and he always manages. I would like to have seen him defend the dictatorships back around 1940.

I wish websites like this would have a way we could block certain users from being seen by us. I know a few people would block me, but I think GBM would take top spot.

I don;t defend "brutal dictatorships".

But I do object to instigating totally unnecessary wars.

All we have to do is guarantee that NATO will not threaten Russia by moving into (another of) its neighbor(s).

But, we instead favor war.   Economic war (at least for us).  But still, war.

Who is going to pay for this war of ours?   As usual, it will be us.

But, I am sorry if the truth does not support your war mongering imperialism.  Perhaps it is YOU that should be blocked?

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/china/2022-02-21/chinas-ukraine-crisis?utm_campaign=tw_daily_soc&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter_posts

The Ukraine crisis is primarily a standoff between Russia and the West, but off to the side, another player stands awkwardly: China. Beijing has tried to walk a fine line on Ukraine. On one hand, it has taken Russia’s side, blaming NATO expansion for causing the crisis and alleging that U.S. predictions of an imminent invasion are aggravating it. On the other hand, especially as the risk of military conflict has grown, it has called for diplomacy over war. 

If Beijing had its way, it would maintain strong ties with Moscow, safeguard its trade relationship with Ukraine, keep the EU in its economic orbit, and avoid the spillover from U.S. and EU sanctions on Moscow—all while preventing relations with the United States from significantly deteriorating. Securing any one of these objectives may well be possible. Achieving all of them is not. 

If Russia invades Ukraine, Beijing could throw Moscow a lifeline: economic relief to alleviate the effect of U.S. sanctions. But doing so would damage Chinese relations with Europe, invite severe repercussions from Washington, and drive traditionally nonaligned countries such as India further into the arms of the West. If Beijing snubs Moscow, by contrast, it may weaken its closest strategic partnership at a time when, given deteriorating security in Asia, it is most in need of outside help.

China should throw Russia under the bus, because Russia is already a failed state, and it wouldn't take much for it to collapse yet again. Might as well give it a push.

We are pushing Russia and China (and a few others) together. 

We are falling back on our last bullet:  financial sanctions  -- and we not using it wisely.   Soon they will have a work-around (actually, they probably already do).

We should have settled this while we could.

Well, evidently it is being settled, as we speak, and I would love Russia and China being forced together, with the end result that the U.S., EU, NATO, and our Indo-Pacific Allies are all on the same page in containing both countries.

How cool would that be!

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2022/2/22/2081709/-Russia-s-economy-can-t-handle-a-war-but-Putin-can-t-handle-the-Russian-economy

tmay said:

GeorgeBMac said:

perfectionist said:

...  it does not seem like anybody understands russians or Putin.

... Or wants to.

Pretty easy to see that Putin is a dictator, with designs on his neighbors, something that NATO was set up to prevent. Too late for Ukraine, possibly, but Finland and Sweden joining NATO, a likelihood now, is going to impinge on Kalingrad's security. 

I probably didn't mention that Finland bought 60 some F-35's, and Switzerland bought some as well. Not seeing any SU-57 in any operating squadrons in Russia, and maybe about 15 produced in total. Sad.

Number of F-35's, of all types, built to date;

https://www.airforcemag.com/f-35-production-set-156-per-year-until-completion/

700 built through September of 2021, with production for 2022 to be 156 per year.