bubblefree

Mike Wuerthele said:

You are by all means welcome to disagree, but your argument is weakened by the opening attack. Accusations of "fake news" because you don't like an opinion doesn't serve presenting your own.

We spoke about the Mac mini, and the Mac Pro, in this very piece. We've also spoken about them well before the WWDC.

Hit Twitter, hit Reddit, hit this forum and others. It won't take you long to find the prediction of doom. You also don't get the emails, and social media commentary we do. 

Hi Mike, Thanks but i don't follow those feeds of information. I was referring to general news stories and what I had seen on different boards. From those I haven't got the impression that people are concerned about Apple imploding through a lack of hardware introductions, simply that they are doing their customers a disservice by slowing down the release cycles where they are uncompetitive with PC brands and others. You certainly get a much broader access to that kind of information.

However irrelevant which view is right the reality that Apple have had no introduction of Mac hardware this year or that they have failed to provide a proper update cycle for certain products (Mac Mini and MacPro) cannot be in dispute. This is the main issue. For a company that has the resources Apple has, how difficult would it have been to put a 6th, 7th or 8th Gen Intel chip in a Mac Mini and introduce it into the market? The answer is they could have done it in a heart beat if they wanted to. Why they haven't is another matter.

A better strategy for them with the Mac would have been to keep the whole line current with regular but interspersed updates to refresh things while continuing to focus on delivering excellent iPhones. This is an ecosystem and keeping the Mac line current would be the obvious defensive strategy to a sector that was under general market pressure from mobile disruption. Without doing that they are beginning to harm their brand of being the "premium" choice.

Even the title of this piece made me laugh at the ridiculousness of AI. I haven't seen any press stories that Apple is doomed. That's just one of those fake news approaches which does nothing to create a productive dialog.

What I have seen is lots of press stories and user comments with concerns and intense frustration (from customers) that Apple's approach to hardware is plain wrong. We're in June and there has been no Mac hardware introductions this year and now it looks like we will wait until September / October until the next event for this to happen. At the same time the Mac Mini hasn't had an update for 4 years and the Mac Pro refresh is still a long way off. How can this be a good thing? There is no regular update cycle going on here to keep Apple's customers competitive with other platforms but a schedule driven around another set of priorities. 

Has Intel been slow to introduce new chips... yes. Have Apple been even slower at introducing new computers..... yes! Gen 8 Intel chips are out and have been since October of last year and we haven't seen any iMac or laptop updates. My teenage son finds it hysterical that I would even think that Macs are competitive in the market for computers nowadays, given the 6 core mobile chip in his laptop. This is in essence Apple's problem. They believe their own marketing but less and less people, including the next generation of customers do.

macxpress said:

bubblefree said:

macxpress said:

bubblefree said:

ljc94512 said:

bubblefree said:

Mike Wuerthele said:

bubblefree said:

If this is true it shows Apple has the worst product update strategy in the whole business and are taking their customers for granted. The MacBook Pro's have processors that are 2 generations behind! Dell and others have introduced 8th gen intel processors months ago. Apple is a like a slow moving dinosaur. What is wrong with a MacBook Pro update every 8 to 12 months? We deserve better than this......

The last MacBook Pro update was... 12 months ago.

And IF this story is true we won't be seeing an update until October at the earliest....... This would mean a 16 month refresh cycle! With all their R&D budget I would expect them to be able to introduce a processor update to their devices within a few months of Intel releasing them onto the market. Given that the 8th gen chips started shipping in late 2017 that seems like wishful thinking!

Not the chips that are suitable for the MacBook Pro though.  Apple has had longer than 12 months upgrade cycle before as well, I don't see a big issue with that.  

Sorry LJC94512 but that's not true. Quad core performance with 8th Gen was introduced last year and Dell had machines available in November....... 

https://www.pcworld.com/article/3237065/laptop-computers/dell-xps-13-2017-review-intels-8th-gen-cpu-makes-a-great-laptop-even-greater.html

AND they had a major redesign for the laptop in March and it has been available since then.....

https://www.cnet.com/products/dell-xps-13-2018/review/

As I said, Apple is moving like a Dinosaur here. Whether you are supporter of Apple or not, it's hard to justify how long these refresh cycles take when others are moving over 6 months faster!

Maybe these are off or something, but the 8th Gen CPU really isn't any better in terms of performance. 

This is what's currently used in the cheapest 15" MacBook Pro:

https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=Intel+Core+i7-7700HQ+@+2.80GHz

Highend CPU in current MacBook Pro:

https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=Intel+Core+i7-7820HQ+@+2.90GHz&id=2952

Optional CPU in current MacBook Pro:

https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=Intel+Core+i7-7920HQ+@+3.10GHz


The CPU in the Dell you specified is the Intel 8550u CPU (8th gen) benchmark is here:

https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=Intel+Core+i7-8550U+@+1.80GHz

Benchmarks: 

7700HQ: 8862
7820HQ: 9409
7920HQ: 10230

8550U: 8325

These are all Core i7 models.

You will see the performance of that is below that of the one you think Apple could be using. The updated one does use less watts, but doesn't appear to be faster. 


My point being...just because its new(er) doesn't mean its better in terms of performance which goes back to my other point of, so you just want Apple to put the newest CPU in for the sake of updating when there may actually be little to no performance increase. I think back to the days of the G4 where Apple would release new Macs with updated G4 CPU's that performed WORSE than the outgoing model in terms of performance in real world testing. Once again, the latest and greatest doesn't always mean its better and just because Dell, HP, etc are using them doesn't mean they're ahead of Apple by any means. 

I am not talking about the 15 inch versions which are quad core already but the 13 inch versions which is the most popular machine by far. This is what the Dell XPS13 story is all about - comparing apples to apples and not cherry picking chips to suit your story. However to prove you wrong, even with the 7700 which is running at 45W it cannot beat the 8550 running at 15W! Don't believe me then read this:

https://www.pcworld.com/article/3235813/laptop-computers/intel-8th-gen-core-i7-review.html

Going back to the 13 inch version the 7th Gen MB Pro uses a 2 core chip. All 8th Gen are 4 core, even at the i3 and i5 level I believe. The speed differences as the article point out are very real and very signifiant. The conclusion of this article states "There's only one way to describe our experience with the Core i7-8550U inside the Dell XPS 13: Impressed. No wait, damned impressed would be a better way to couch it."

My point being..... The 8th Gen chips are much much faster, offer better battery life and have been around since November of last year. Why does it take 7 months for them to make it into MB Pro's? This is a legitimate question when Apple is positioning itself as the premium brand in the notebook market and when customers expect them to be competitive.

So you want Apple to update the 13" but not the 15"? That makes absolutely no sense what so ever. Are the 8th gen chips really that much faster? I'd like to see some benchmarks. 

Macexpress, that's not what I said or meant. My reference to the 13 inch machine is that if you look at the biggest difference in the first release 8th Gen chips they moved from two core to four cores for the versions that power the smaller 13 inch type machines. This creates a huge speed bump. In fact the update in April brought in new 6 core chips which would be great in a 15 inch MacBook Pro top end machine.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/12607/intel-expands-8th-gen-core-core-i9-on-mobile-iris-plus-desktop-chipsets-and-vpro

Dell and HP have already released laptops based on these chips as have others. They have been in the market for some time.

My point was and continues to be that if Apple does not bring out revised laptops at WWDC then it is not providing its customers with a competitive offering. As with the 7th Gen MB Pro's introduced last year at WWDC they will be waiting for too long after the introduction of a chip release to be competitive. Apple can't have it both ways. They want to be seen as the Pro brand where people will pay a premium. However if they don't offer the best chips within 3 to 6 months of them being released then they begin to look less like leaders and more like followers. Who pays a premium for being a follower? Apple is playing it safe by introducing hardware less frequently. That is not good for their customers or ultimately for Apple.

macxpress said:

bubblefree said:

ljc94512 said:

bubblefree said:

Mike Wuerthele said:

bubblefree said:

If this is true it shows Apple has the worst product update strategy in the whole business and are taking their customers for granted. The MacBook Pro's have processors that are 2 generations behind! Dell and others have introduced 8th gen intel processors months ago. Apple is a like a slow moving dinosaur. What is wrong with a MacBook Pro update every 8 to 12 months? We deserve better than this......

The last MacBook Pro update was... 12 months ago.

And IF this story is true we won't be seeing an update until October at the earliest....... This would mean a 16 month refresh cycle! With all their R&D budget I would expect them to be able to introduce a processor update to their devices within a few months of Intel releasing them onto the market. Given that the 8th gen chips started shipping in late 2017 that seems like wishful thinking!

Not the chips that are suitable for the MacBook Pro though.  Apple has had longer than 12 months upgrade cycle before as well, I don't see a big issue with that.  

Sorry LJC94512 but that's not true. Quad core performance with 8th Gen was introduced last year and Dell had machines available in November....... 

https://www.pcworld.com/article/3237065/laptop-computers/dell-xps-13-2017-review-intels-8th-gen-cpu-makes-a-great-laptop-even-greater.html

AND they had a major redesign for the laptop in March and it has been available since then.....

https://www.cnet.com/products/dell-xps-13-2018/review/

As I said, Apple is moving like a Dinosaur here. Whether you are supporter of Apple or not, it's hard to justify how long these refresh cycles take when others are moving over 6 months faster!

Maybe these are off or something, but the 8th Gen CPU really isn't any better in terms of performance. 

This is what's currently used in the cheapest 15" MacBook Pro:

https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=Intel+Core+i7-7700HQ+@+2.80GHz

Highend CPU in current MacBook Pro:

https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=Intel+Core+i7-7820HQ+@+2.90GHz&id=2952

Optional CPU in current MacBook Pro:

https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=Intel+Core+i7-7920HQ+@+3.10GHz


The CPU in the Dell you specified is the Intel 8550u CPU (8th gen) benchmark is here:

https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=Intel+Core+i7-8550U+@+1.80GHz

Benchmarks: 

7700HQ: 8862
7820HQ: 9409
7920HQ: 10230

8550U: 8325

These are all Core i7 models.

You will see the performance of that is below that of the one you think Apple could be using. The updated one does use less watts, but doesn't appear to be faster. 


My point being...just because its new(er) doesn't mean its better in terms of performance which goes back to my other point of, so you just want Apple to put the newest CPU in for the sake of updating when there may actually be little to no performance increase. I think back to the days of the G4 where Apple would release new Macs with updated G4 CPU's that performed WORSE than the outgoing model in terms of performance in real world testing. Once again, the latest and greatest doesn't always mean its better and just because Dell, HP, etc are using them doesn't mean they're ahead of Apple by any means. 

I am not talking about the 15 inch versions which are quad core already but the 13 inch versions which is the most popular machine by far. This is what the Dell XPS13 story is all about - comparing apples to apples and not cherry picking chips to suit your story. However to prove you wrong, even with the 7700 which is running at 45W it cannot beat the 8550 running at 15W! Don't believe me then read this:

https://www.pcworld.com/article/3235813/laptop-computers/intel-8th-gen-core-i7-review.html

Going back to the 13 inch version the 7th Gen MB Pro uses a 2 core chip. All 8th Gen are 4 core, even at the i3 and i5 level I believe. The speed differences as the article point out are very real and very signifiant. The conclusion of this article states "There's only one way to describe our experience with the Core i7-8550U inside the Dell XPS 13: Impressed. No wait, damned impressed would be a better way to couch it."

My point being..... The 8th Gen chips are much much faster, offer better battery life and have been around since November of last year. Why does it take 7 months for them to make it into MB Pro's? This is a legitimate question when Apple is positioning itself as the premium brand in the notebook market and when customers expect them to be competitive.

ljc94512 said:

bubblefree said:

Mike Wuerthele said:

bubblefree said:

If this is true it shows Apple has the worst product update strategy in the whole business and are taking their customers for granted. The MacBook Pro's have processors that are 2 generations behind! Dell and others have introduced 8th gen intel processors months ago. Apple is a like a slow moving dinosaur. What is wrong with a MacBook Pro update every 8 to 12 months? We deserve better than this......

The last MacBook Pro update was... 12 months ago.

And IF this story is true we won't be seeing an update until October at the earliest....... This would mean a 16 month refresh cycle! With all their R&D budget I would expect them to be able to introduce a processor update to their devices within a few months of Intel releasing them onto the market. Given that the 8th gen chips started shipping in late 2017 that seems like wishful thinking!

Not the chips that are suitable for the MacBook Pro though.  Apple has had longer than 12 months upgrade cycle before as well, I don't see a big issue with that.  

Sorry LJC94512 but that's not true. Quad core performance with 8th Gen was introduced last year and Dell had machines available in November....... 

https://www.pcworld.com/article/3237065/laptop-computers/dell-xps-13-2017-review-intels-8th-gen-cpu-makes-a-great-laptop-even-greater.html

AND they had a major redesign for the laptop in March and it has been available since then.....

https://www.cnet.com/products/dell-xps-13-2018/review/

As I said, Apple is moving like a Dinosaur here. Whether you are supporter of Apple or not, it's hard to justify how long these refresh cycles take when others are moving over 6 months faster!