ElCapitan

nht said:

ElCapitan said:

nht said:

ElCapitan said:

corrections said:

ElCapitan said:

>However, Apple hasn't been actively pushing Macs at Windows users lately. Actually Apple hasn't been actively pushing Macs at a rather large group of existing Mac users either.
Mini, Mac Pro and to some extent MacBook Pro users have been neglected, pushed out in the cold for years. Add to them macOS Server users, and with the deprecation of OpenGL, an entire class of high end graphics and scientific users from whom the ability of running iOS apps is virtually irrelevant.

Yes.
The installed base of Mac users is ~150M. 
The installed base of iOS users is ~1,150M

The media narrative that Apple isn't updating Macs 

Media narrative? - What planet are you living on?

Besides ALL the iOS users are 100% dependent on Macs.

Not a single app is created without a Mac. 

NOT catering to the developer community who creates and maintains those apps is over time cutting the branch you sit on. 

NOT catering to the IT professionals running the backends and infrastructures for those devices in everything from small businesses to large enterprises  is over time cutting the branch you sit on.

As a dev I can heartily say you’re full of it.

Docker works fine on my 2016 MBP.  XCode works great. Swift is very nice.  

If you don’t need mobility then the MBP isn’t designed for you.  Buy an iMac.  If you do need mobility (as in you actually travel) the current MBPs are better than the older ones.

And with eGPUs you can have both power and mobility, although at slightly higher cost than just an iMac.

Docker works depending on what you want to run on it. One example is UNMS - Ubiquiti Network Management System they cannot get to work reliably in Docker for macOS.  Besides if you really want to use Docker for anything but hobby and some testing there are virtually no hardware from Apple any more that makes sense to deploy it on. 

No, the 2016 MBP is not designed for me. For lengthy Xcode builds that routinely takes 50 minutes with all cores active, due to the thermals of the 2016 MBP it starts throttling a few minutes into the build. - NOT GOOD!  

Even for testing the application stability on that hardware that many users may end up with (for any reason), the GPU also starts throttling after a few minutes. So it is useless. 

International pricing is also an issue when a moderately configured 2016 MBP 15" set you back over $3700, that is also not very good. 

In addition there are 4 minis in a setup to properly test the software (backend for multiple clients), and they all are looking long in the tooth since new i7 minis cannot be had. The ability to run multiple processes at full load is much more important than absolute processor speed. 

1) You don’t deploy production docker instances on Macs.  You develop on Macs and deploy on production servers.  That’s one major reason to use Docker in the first place...so the transition from dev to ops environment is lower.

2) While Docker For Mac runs on hyperkit, Docker toolbox uses virtual box and UNMS should have no issues.

3) Unless you are consistently doing 50 min builds on an airplane or hotel room you should have bought an iMac.  What are you building that takes 50 mins anyway?  Why isn’t this being done on your CI server?  XCode 9 now has XCode server built in.  

4) If your backend is dockerized then you can test on AWS. WTF would you use Docker and then lock yourself to testing on Mac mini’s?

5) https://eshop.macsales.com/item/Apple/GA4GS3HXXX0XI/

$1750 4 core Mac Pro.  International Shipping to Europe and maybe some other countries (dunno where you are).  Apple refurbished with 1 year Apple Warranty...maybe.

1. No I don't.

If you happened to pay attention I said i7 minis in the test environment. – You know the species that went extinct around 2012 only to be spotted on eBay since. A species that existed even before Docker for macOS even was a remote possibility. So neither test nor production is dockerized (and even if it can be, it will just need more memory and resources overall.)

Also it used to be that businesses could deploy their production to Apple hardware. It could even be racked alongside the other production servers. 

With the removal of anything server from Apple's portfolio, I suppose you could always put a bunch of iPad Pro's in a nice rack enclose and use them as "blade servers". </sarc>

2-5. You just confirmed what I said, Apple's most Pro portable cannot be used as a developer machine if you throw at it lengthy builds. – You have to have an iMac, and a CI server with Xcode 9. God forbid being a developer who move between offices, meeting rooms and clients all day, who work in an environment where you don't have a fixed desk, who demo solutions or discuss ideas at client locations. - NO, you have to have an iMac!

The 4 core Mac Pro - seriously?? 2013 tech?  This config? has 75% of the memory I have in my MBP, 1/4 of the SSD storage. Not a single user of the app will have this machine, so it isn't even a valid test config. 

And what's with the building that takes 50 minutes anyway.  - You're winning there too because this baby will soon go away like every other solution using OpenGL. Problem solved! Another of those pesky Mac users gone...

I guess I am holding my iPhone wrong too.

gregg thurman said:

ElCapitan said:

International pricing is also an issue when a moderately configured 2016 MBP 15" set you back over $3700, that is also not very good. 

International pricing is not just a currency exchange rate thing.  Most countries (if not all) outside the US employ a national sales tax (in varying degrees) known as VAT (Value Added Tax).  It is the lack of a national sales tax in the US that makes buying a Toyota/Mercedes in the US cheaper than it does in Japan/Germany.

Unlike the US where the price of an item is advertised WITHOUT sales tax, outside of the US the advertised price INCLUDES the national sales tax.  If you were to deduct the national sales tax and convert local currency to US$, you will find pricing to be quite close to each other.

True to a certain extent, but there is also the general prizing of comparable hardware in the market that comes into play when people chose systems. For groups such as students it can be sensitive, meaning they often end up with a non Apple product. For long term Mac users it gets less sensitive as the second hand price of used machines are pretty good, so the next investment is cheaper. The problem arise when new models are not introduced for years. It basically ruins the secondhand market. 

nht said:

ElCapitan said:

corrections said:

ElCapitan said:

>However, Apple hasn't been actively pushing Macs at Windows users lately. Actually Apple hasn't been actively pushing Macs at a rather large group of existing Mac users either.
Mini, Mac Pro and to some extent MacBook Pro users have been neglected, pushed out in the cold for years. Add to them macOS Server users, and with the deprecation of OpenGL, an entire class of high end graphics and scientific users from whom the ability of running iOS apps is virtually irrelevant.

Yes.
The installed base of Mac users is ~150M. 
The installed base of iOS users is ~1,150M

The media narrative that Apple isn't updating Macs 

Media narrative? - What planet are you living on?

Besides ALL the iOS users are 100% dependent on Macs.

Not a single app is created without a Mac. 

NOT catering to the developer community who creates and maintains those apps is over time cutting the branch you sit on. 

NOT catering to the IT professionals running the backends and infrastructures for those devices in everything from small businesses to large enterprises  is over time cutting the branch you sit on.

As a dev I can heartily say you’re full of it.

Docker works fine on my 2016 MBP.  XCode works great. Swift is very nice.  

If you don’t need mobility then the MBP isn’t designed for you.  Buy an iMac.  If you do need mobility (as in you actually travel) the current MBPs are better than the older ones.

And with eGPUs you can have both power and mobility, although at slightly higher cost than just an iMac.

Docker works depending on what you want to run on it. One example is UNMS - Ubiquiti Network Management System they cannot get to work reliably in Docker for macOS.  Besides if you really want to use Docker for anything but hobby and some testing there are virtually no hardware from Apple any more that makes sense to deploy it on. 

No, the 2016 MBP is not designed for me. For lengthy Xcode builds that routinely takes 50 minutes with all cores active, due to the thermals of the 2016 MBP it starts throttling a few minutes into the build. - NOT GOOD!  

Even for testing the application stability on that hardware that many users may end up with (for any reason), the GPU also starts throttling after a few minutes. So it is useless. 

International pricing is also an issue when a moderately configured 2016 MBP 15" set you back over $3700, that is also not very good. 

In addition there are 4 minis in a setup to properly test the software (backend for multiple clients), and they all are looking long in the tooth since new i7 minis cannot be had. The ability to run multiple processes at full load is much more important than absolute processor speed. 

Rayz2016 said:

ElCapitan said:

Rayz2016 said:

ElCapitan said:

corrections said:

ElCapitan said:

>However, Apple hasn't been actively pushing Macs at Windows users lately. Actually Apple hasn't been actively pushing Macs at a rather large group of existing Mac users either.
Mini, Mac Pro and to some extent MacBook Pro users have been neglected, pushed out in the cold for years. Add to them macOS Server users, and with the deprecation of OpenGL, an entire class of high end graphics and scientific users from whom the ability of running iOS apps is virtually irrelevant.

Yes.
The installed base of Mac users is ~150M. 
The installed base of iOS users is ~1,150M

The media narrative that Apple isn't updating Macs 

Media narrative? - What planet are you living on?

Besides ALL the iOS users are 100% dependent on Macs.

Not a single app is created without a Mac. 

NOT catering to the developer community who creates and maintains those apps is over time cutting the branch you sit on. 

NOT catering to the IT professionals running the backends and infrastructures for those devices in everything from small businesses to large enterprises  is over time cutting the branch you sit on.

If Apple isn’t catering for its developer community then how are all these iOS apps being created?

It is almost entirely catering to the iOS developers, and while that to a certain degree works as a short term strategy, it is not particularly sustainable in the long run. 

macOS developers have in many aspects been neglected for years. 

Riiight, so what you’re saying is that Final Cut Pro, Pixelmator, Scrivener and all the other MacOS apps updated in the last few months are all being written under Windows. 

Because if Apple has been neglecting them for years, and the top end iMacs and iMac Pros are a myth, then how are they doing this?

Rayz2016 said:

ElCapitan said:

corrections said:

ElCapitan said:

>However, Apple hasn't been actively pushing Macs at Windows users lately. Actually Apple hasn't been actively pushing Macs at a rather large group of existing Mac users either.
Mini, Mac Pro and to some extent MacBook Pro users have been neglected, pushed out in the cold for years. Add to them macOS Server users, and with the deprecation of OpenGL, an entire class of high end graphics and scientific users from whom the ability of running iOS apps is virtually irrelevant.

Yes.
The installed base of Mac users is ~150M. 
The installed base of iOS users is ~1,150M

The media narrative that Apple isn't updating Macs 

Media narrative? - What planet are you living on?

Besides ALL the iOS users are 100% dependent on Macs.

Not a single app is created without a Mac. 

NOT catering to the developer community who creates and maintains those apps is over time cutting the branch you sit on. 

NOT catering to the IT professionals running the backends and infrastructures for those devices in everything from small businesses to large enterprises  is over time cutting the branch you sit on.

If Apple isn’t catering for its developer community then how are all these iOS apps being created?

It is almost entirely catering to the iOS developers, and while that to a certain degree works as a short term strategy, it is not particularly sustainable in the long run. 

macOS developers have in many aspects been neglected for years.