davidw

gatorguy said:

davidw said:

gatorguy said:

davidw said:

gatorguy said:

lam92103 said:

Google has to be the whiniest crybaby ever. Either get with the AirTag standard or stop complaining. 

Instead they keep blaming Apple for not wanting to be a part. 

There is no "Airtag standard".  I suggest more research before commenting.
A snippet from a pertinent article that might help you and other readers better understand:

"Google has already announced that all Bluetooth tags compatible with the FindMyDevice network will support Android’s unknown tracker alerts. The iPhone does not have similar detection capabilities.

At the start of May, Google and Apple announced an industry-wide unwanted tracker alert specification. Bluetooth trackers that abide by that approach will be discoverable by Android and iOS. The two mobile platforms have committed to add support once the spec is finalized.

In the meantime they could of course launch the network service anyway but to their credit "Google is not launching the Find My Device (FMD) network “until Apple has implemented protections for iOS.” By making sure iPhone owners can find FMD-compatible trackers, this should hopefully reduce and help prevent the Google network from being used to track Apple devices without awareness from their owners. That would reflect badly on the FMD network and associated products, which is an ongoing occurrence for AirTags."

. 

>The specification was submitted as an Internet-Draft through the Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF), a standards development organization. The specification is open until August for review and comment from external parties.<


No, in  the meantime Google can not launch their Android tracking service, unless they want to launch it before the "find my device network" standard is finalized for both OS's. Right now, both Google and Apple have already approved the draft of the standard that is going to be use, so both Android and iOS devices will work with it.   

Only you would give Google credit for not yet launching their Android tag system because Apple has not yet implemented the "find my device network" standard on iOS. 

Apple did ot wait on a "standard" before releasing their Bluetooth tracking system. Google is not required to wait on one either. Yet they will to ensure Apple users aren't secretly tracked by an unwelcome device, a consideration that Apple decided not to extend to Android users for 8 months.

 IMO it would be reasonable for Google to do the same, ramp up the service and eventually Apple will catch up and alert their users. Instead, Google is taking the high road and awaiting Apple to offer iOS user protection, whether the eventual standard is fully approved. That sounds like Google thinking of not just Android owners but being considerate of iOS users too. 

Yes, Google can go ahead and still release their Android tag system but they will still be using the draft version of the cross platform anti-tracking software. While Apple is still  waiting for this draft version to be finalized. 

When Apple released their AirTag, using AirTags for stalking was not a known big problem. tiles been around for years before the AirTag and no big problem of stalking reported there.  But now Google knows that their Android tag will be use for stalking, thanks to Apple AirTag being around for two years...
Thanks to Apple, once again, Google got 2 years of free RD on how to implement a competitive tag system for Android users.  

Isn't this the placeholder for you or someone else to say "they weren't first, they were just first to do it right" or something along those lines if it were Apple?

Now to get back to the meat of the matter, Google isn't 'whining" about waiting on Apple. They are explaining to Android users why a planned feature is being delayed. And that is the specific reason; Apple hasn't yet offered a way for iPhone owners to be notified, even tho they too have known for over a year that Google was readying the FindMyDevice network. I have zero doubt Google has been discussing this with Apple for at least that long, probably longer.

Settling on establishing an industry-wide standard is the result of that, but it comes long after Google last year had signaled it would be coming out right about now. Thus Android owners/users deserved an explanation. It's not Google's holdup, it's a result of Apple deciding they would wait on a standard to be approved by everyone before doing anything, and Google allowing them the time to do that. 

Google for their part has now released a custom implementation to protect Android users from Bluetooth tag stalking, ahead of the finalized joint spec. Apple, however, will wait to implement the joint spec but will not roll out its own custom implementation in the meantime. So yeah, it's Apple.

And Google is explaining (whining) why they have not released their Android "tag" system by saying that they are still waiting for Apple to implement their agreed upon cross platform detection software. Which won't be finalized until sometime in Aug. Why couldn't they explain that the cross platform tag detection software that both tag system will be using, has not yet been finalized? Just because Google is willing to risk implementing the cross platform tag detection software before it becomes finalized, doesn't mean that Apple is holding them up, by not wanting to take that same risk. Apple in their right to wait for the finalized version, before implement into iOS.

https://techcrunch.com/2021/12/14/apple-releases-tracker-detect-android-app-to-help-users-discover-unknown-nearby-airtags/

Apple released their "Track Detecter" app to protect Android device users around the beginning of last year. Android users are already protected from being stalked by an AirTag. (Though the app is not the most user friendly. But Android users are use to that. ) At the time, Google has not yet developed their own tag system, though they were probably already working on one. The agreed upon cross platform tag detection software was drafted in May of this year and waiting to be finalized at the end of July. That's about 2 months wait. So in the meantime, you are criticizing Apple for not releasing another tag detection software to protect Android users, for the 2 months it's going to take to finalize their cross platform detection software?

No, this is on Google for not properly explaining to their users that they are waiting for the cross platform detection software to be finalized. Google own time frame for releasing their Android tag system was .... before the end of the 2023. Google did not have to explain to their users that they are being delayed due to Apple, because their Android tag system is still on time. Google is just once again whining about how Apple is holding them up, from making the World a better place for everyone. 

gatorguy said:

lam92103 said:

Google has to be the whiniest crybaby ever. Either get with the AirTag standard or stop complaining. 

Instead they keep blaming Apple for not wanting to be a part. 

There is no "Airtag standard".  I suggest more research before commenting.
A snippet from a pertinent article that might help you and other readers better understand:

"Google has already announced that all Bluetooth tags compatible with the FindMyDevice network will support Android’s unknown tracker alerts. The iPhone does not have similar detection capabilities.

At the start of May, Google and Apple announced an industry-wide unwanted tracker alert specification. Bluetooth trackers that abide by that approach will be discoverable by Android and iOS. The two mobile platforms have committed to add support once the spec is finalized.

In the meantime they could of course launch the network service anyway but to their credit "Google is not launching the Find My Device (FMD) network “until Apple has implemented protections for iOS.” By making sure iPhone owners can find FMD-compatible trackers, this should hopefully reduce and help prevent the Google network from being used to track Apple devices without awareness from their owners. That would reflect badly on the FMD network and associated products, which is an ongoing occurrence for AirTags."

. 

>The specification was submitted as an Internet-Draft through the Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF), a standards development organization. The specification is open until August for review and comment from external parties.<


No, in  the meantime Google can not launch their Android tracking service, unless they want to launch it before the "find my device network" standard is finalized for both OS's. Right now, both Google and Apple have already approved the draft of the standard that is going to be use, so both Android and iOS devices will work with it. But he final draft will no be ready until after reviewing any comments made by all others involve, up to the end of July and maybe making some changes based on those reviews. 

So at the earliest that Google can launch would be maybe mid Aug. if there's no drastic changes to be made to the draft version. Which is still before the "by the end of 2023" deadline they set. So why is Google whining about Apple saying that they are not ready yet when Apple and others involve have until the end of July to summit any review concerning the draft?  Why should Apple implement "find my device network" on iOS when the standard will not be finalized until all the comments been reviewed?

Only you would give Google credit for not yet launching their Android tag system because Apple has not yet implemented the "find my device network" standard on iOS. A standard that has not yet been finalized, for either OS's.  

If we were in the middle of Sept., then maybe you giving Google credit for waiting until Apple gets iOS ready might be deserved.     

dewme said:

Just curious, does the UK allow the Post Office to open mail without a search warrant? 

The necessity of obtaining a search warrant is one of the firewalls against privacy intrusion in the US. I assume that obtaining a search warrant requires a judge to agree that there is probable cause to conduct a search for specific items and information. As far as I know Apple currently complies with legal requests backed by search warrants for information that it maintains within its system. But Apple does not maintain the private secrets or keys needed to unlock encrypted information stored within its system. 

Allowing a government agency or their proxy to universally access any user’s information without obtaining a search warrant backed by probable cause and signed off on by a legal authority seems like a very grave violation of citizens’ rights, at least in most democratic countries. That alone should be a major inhibitor to the implementation of universal scanning even before the encryption matter comes into play.

Are the UK citizens okay with their government deciding that they have blanket probable cause to assume everyone using Apple’s electronic communication systems have potentially committed a crime? That’s a pretty harsh and degrading assumption. You’d think citizens in a non authoritarian democratic society would find this kind of behavior totally unacceptable and fire the elected officials who are proposing the scheme. 

If by .."........ within its system" ... you mean the Apple cloud, then it's yes they do. When you do an encrypted backup of your device to the iCloud, Apple will encrypt the important data using a password you create. But Apple has access to that password you used. So they have access to your data backed up in the iCloud. If Apple did not have access to your password, they would not be able to recover your data, if you forgot your password. But there is a "forgot your password" feature that you can use to recover your iCloud data, if you forgot your password. 

Now when you do an encrypted backup to a local device like a Mac, if you forgot your password, you're screwed. There's no way to recover your data if you were the only one that knew the password. 

Now what Apple do not have is the passcode to your iOS device. The important data in there are also encrypted using your passcode and the Apple Secure Enclave chip on the device, to create a key.  There is no way to un-encrypt that data without the passcode and the original device. Every Secure Enclave chip is unique to every device. This is why if the user made a iCloud backup of the device, Apple can handover the most recent iCloud backup to law enforcement with a warrant, even if the user did an encrypted backup with a password. But Apple can not handle over the data still in the device that wasn't backed up or since its last back up because Apple do not have access to the passcode. 

gatorguy said:

davidw said:

gatorguy said:

rob53 said:

It's about time Apple drew a line in the sand. I'm sick and tired of countries dictating how a product is designed especially when those countries have nothing worthwhile to offer. Yes, the UK and EU make some cellular devices but nothing compared to what Apple produces. The removal of end-to-end encryption is simply a ploy to allow governments to capture all kinds of personal information without even having a warrant. The UK wants to go back to the days of the telephone party line so they can snoop constantly. 

The problem for Apple, at least in some eyes, including politicians, is Apple has found a way to adhere to a country's security laws even if it requires compromising user's privacy and individual security in order to do so. The demarcation line for Apple isn't yet clearly established, but there is one nonetheless, likely based on market size and type of government, and that's a fact.

"Apple stores customer data on Chinese government servers."

"Apple agreed to store the digital keys that unlock its Chinese customers' information in those (government) data centers. And Apple abandoned the encryption technology it uses in other data centers after China wouldn't allow it."

My guess is the UK probably teeters on that edge and perhaps where Apple makes a public proclamation that they are NOT big enough on their own. Or it could be that the UK has more exposure to public pressure than some other less open countries and Apple is counting on them to convince the UK to drop the plan.

 In order to try to avoid future demands from others, Apple might make the UK the sacrificial lamb. 

BTW- Even China allows end to end encryption with iMessage. 

AFAIK, as of 2021 (?) they do not, at least in a practical sense.  E2EE would mean the Chinese government cannot access typed or sent messages at all, which would be against Chinese security laws, the same reason other Apple E2EE services had to be disabled in China. It may be encrypted,but that does not mean the Chinese had not already established a means of seeing the typed messages on your phone prior to being sent.

The best I've been able to understand is that iPhone vendors in China install a new certificate in the enterprise enrollment chain-of-trust. This allows the Chinese government to use that certificate to bypass the Apple signed one for code execution on the device.

So they really don’t care that the data is encrypted on the way out of the phone, because they’ve already established access to it before it ever leaves the phone in the first place.

Now I may be wrong, but my understanding is that yes, in the practical sense, there is E2EE with iMessage in China. No one else can read the encrypted iMessage after it's sent from the sender device, while it's being sent and before it is un-encrypted on the receiver device. That is E2EE.

In the US, if the sender backups up his device to the iCloud, Apple re-encrypts the iMessages when they are stored in the iCloud. And  Apple has access to the key. If the government get a court order, Apple can access those E2EE messages.

But in China, when iMessage users backs up their iMessages to the iCloud, they are store in the government servers and the government now has access to those messages without needing to get a court order.    

The only place where E2EE messages can be kept where only the sender and receiver have access to them, is encrypted on their own devices that are protected by a passcode. Apple have no access to that passcode and not even a court order can force Apple to turn over something they don't have access to.  Pretty sure an iPhone in China do not have a backdoor that can bypass the user passcode. But not sure. And for sure, the government can install their own spyware on any iPhones they want. But iMessage E2EE works the way it does in China as in the US. It's just that in China, it's much harder to keep the government from seeing that message, when it's un-ecrypted on the sender or receiver device, due to government spyware. But spyware like Pegasus can do this with any iPhone, anywhere in the World.  And it's not Apple that installs the spyware on their China devices to compromise iMessage nor is there a government backdoor to the iMessage in China.

gatorguy said:

techconc said:

hmurchison said:

Anytime you have to make a claim that something is the best that means it isn't the best.    Excellence always speaks for itself.

Quotes like that are meaningless unless they are able to articulate a reason why they believe it to be true.   As others have mentioned, Apple has hurt their business model by stopping much of their ad tracking.  Clearly they want more users to be on Android... hence the vague and inaccurate claims about Android being better. 

gatorguy said:

foregoneconclusion said:

Android users switching to iOS annually: 14%. iOS users switching to Android annually: 4%. I guess the "better" part must be pretty well hidden within the operating system.

Since nearly the dawn of the duopoly, Apple and others have claimed that some annually significant percentage of Android users have switched to iOS. Oddly though Android continues to exist a decade and a half later, and in good numbers. How can that be if 10-14% of the ecosystem switch to Apple devices every year and smartphone adoption numbers aren't rising? 

A conundrum. 

"Apple's iOS, however, reigns supreme in the United States. Android takes the top spot at 70.89% market share globally, beating iOS by a 42.53% difference with a 28.36% market share. Meanwhile, in the US, Apple continues to dominate at 57.39% market share, beating Android by a 15.12% difference."

https://www.bankmycell.com/blog/android-vs-apple-market-share/#:~:text=Apple%27s%20iOS%2C%20however%2C%20reigns%20supreme,Android%20by%20a%2015.12%25%20difference.

Apple's market share is growing and in the US, Apple has now passed Android by a considerable margin.  So, where people can afford to buy nice things, Apple wins.  In third world countries where the average selling price for a phone is $200, sure Android wins because Apple doesn't even compete in that low end part of the market.  There is no conundrum. 

Android has never been the leading smartphone OS in the US, as far as I can tell. There was a brief time in 2015 when there was relative parity, but Apple having a bigger piece of the US pie is nothing new.
 https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/united-states-of-america/#monthly-201211-202306